Party composition.

[Rleonardh]

Using basic classes as a starting point, what is the best.

1
Rogue 1/druid 19 with able learner and skills disable traps

2
Rogue 1/druid 19
Cleric 3/barbarian 1/cleric 16 with shock trooper tree

3
Rogue I/druid 19
Cleric 3/barbarian 1/cleric 16
Rogue I/wizard 19 with able learner for party face

4 same as above, add sorcerer 20

5th member: druid or cleric
Maybe even bard with haste and songs, all classes above can summon things.

This is a thought experiment only, of course adding in prcs will pump this up alot.
I'm thinking about none cheese and no prcs just feats.

What would be your base class party builds??
Any class is on table.

[Gnaeus]

1. Beguiler 20

2. + Druid 20

3. Cleric 20
Druid 20
Artificer 20

4. + Wizard 20

5. + Beguiler 20 (and wizard takes illusion and enchantment as opposition schools)
or
+ Archivist 20 (and replace Cleric 20 with Cleric 18 splashing Crusader strategically)
or
+ Crusader 20 or Warblade 20 using WRT and adaptive style to hand actions to whichever full caster is most effective in that combat.

[Thurbane]

I like characters with lots of skills, so...

Ninja 1/Cloistered Cleric 19 with Able Learner as the skillmonkey/healer/buffer (Ninja get trapfinding, and also get Wis bonus to AC when unarmored)
Warblade 20 as the melee/tank (Crusader might be better, but I prefer Warblades)
Archivist 20 as the second healer/buffer - if you are an Illumian, you can dump Wis altogether and use Dex for bonus spells. Archivist can also boost the others with Dark Knowledge.
Wizard Conjuror 20 as the blaster/battlefield controller etc.
Beguiler 20 as the face, and second trapfinfder/skillmonkey

...I know there's no druid, but I still feel this is a pretty solid party. 4 characters throwing around 9th level spells, and one of the best mundanes in the game.

[Anthrowhale]

Ninja 1/Cloistered Cleric 19 with Able Learner as the skillmonkey/healer/buffer (Ninja get trapfinding, and also get Wis bonus to AC when unarmored)

Wis to AC is quite nice.

For a single character, I think you need: (a) deal with traps (b) sneak & sense (c) recover from damage (d) deal damage (e) spell effect access. Loading all of that into a single character with just base classes is a bit tricky, but maybe something like:

Hengeyokai[Sparrow] Rogue 1/Archivist 19
1. Darkstalker // Sneak vs. strange senses
3. Craven // damage + level
6. ??
9. Channel Charge //Cast spells from Wands/Staffs without charges.
12. ??
15. ??
18. ??

For
(a) You have access to trapfinding and disable device from Rogue 1.
(b) You have access to Disable Device/Spot/Hide/Move Silently and 4 Archivist skill points can top up rogue skills 1-for-1 instead of 2-for-1 using the retraining rules in PHB II. And as a bonus you get Diplomacy, Search, and Knowledge skills. In addition, Darkstalker + Fine size makes you extremely hard to detect and you can access all the skill booster spells (divine inspiration, guidance of the avatar, improvisation, etc...) to make any reasonable and many unreasonable skill checks.
(c) Clerical spell access for Archivists is great, but you can do even better working off things like the Healer list.
(d) Craven + Rogue 1 gives sneak attack of 1d6+level which can be made to stick via various SA damage bypass options (i.e. vine strike, golem strike, etc...) You can hit reliably close up with a poison ring touch attack and multiply damage more than adequately using extra limbs. Eventually, Wraithstrike + Greater Might Wallop and Sense Weakness + Surge of Fortune + Vorpal come online.
(e) Archivists can access virtually every spell in the game with Channel Charge expanding the scope further under a restrictive DM while providing spontaneity in all cases.

[Quertus]

Boy oh boy, this feels like a chicken and egg problem. By which I mean, is the adventure built for the character, or the character built for the adventure? If my solo character is telling the story of life in the Barbarian tribe, maybe Wizard isn't the best answer.

That said, Wizard is the best answer. For all slots. Why? Because it's the best answer for me, and, this way, I have party members I can relate to, and with whom I can trade spells. :smallwink:

No, seriously, could you imagine if Harry had to be a Cleric, and Ron a Barbarian, because Hermione was already a Wizard?

So, given that I run less linear, more sandboxy games, and prefer to play in such, as well, I'd say that the optimal party is whatever makes the players happy.

But, to try to answer the question in more the way it was intended... I think that Cleric 20 is more likely to survive a greater variety of challenges and scenarios than most other solo adventurers. Between healing and disposable undead minions, not to mention HP, armor, and 2 good saves (plus Luck domain for a reroll 1/day), they're a lot more survivable than most. I guess, so long as the GM doesn't forbid partially-charged wands, Rogue 1 / Cleric 19 is pretty decent, too. Oh, or the Spellcaster class from UA (although you lose some HP, so... maybe?).

Of course, if the party size is 1, hopefully I'm the player, so I guess that the optimal answer is "one Wizard", since that's what I primarily play. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, for another type of "optimal", I suppose... naming your PC "Elminster", winning despite the rules, and being Rogue 1 / Fighter 1 / Cleric 1 / Wizzard 17+ DMPC is kinda optimal, too. :smallamused:

IME, the optimal small parties I've seen? They've been heavy on Evasion abilities (all *super* stealthy, all invisible, or all flying, for example).

Also... I think that, maybe by about 3 PCs, I'd expect to see a Diplomancer build on the "optimal" list. That's some sort of, what, Cleric/Martial/Warlock/Factotum mish-mash? (Note to self: build a Diplomancer some day, ideally while the internet still exists)

I may try to give something in more the format of the OP, but I hope that gives a taste of my thoughts on the subject.

[Soranar]

A druid

An urban druid

An undead minion necromancer variant (with necropolitan template)

An artificer

Everybody has a bodyguard of some kind (animal companion, urban companion, undead minion and a construct)

everybody has a specialty (druid handles outside settings, urban druid handles cities, artificer handles dungeons and the necromancer handles arcane magic)

[Rleonardh]

Yah this topic can definitely go many ways.
Like you said party than adventure or adventure than party.

100% agree what makes people happy as best class. Mine is cleric, cheese or no cheese types.

I'm thinking there roles that "need" to be filled so to speak, I know wizard does it all lol.

Front
Dps
Heal
Skill
Face
Spy
Arcane
Things of this nature. Build a easy party that fills these roles if possible not going super optimal as this is a thought experiment only.

Why I chose the 4 I did.
Rogue druid as it fills alot of roles by itself.
Cleric
Rogue wizard
Sorcerer

Fills most of these roles listed above. Also did it in order that I think would cover any adventure that can be thought of knowing nothing about it.

[lylsyly]

1. Conjurer

2. Cleric
Conjurer

3. Beguiler
Cleric
Generalist Wizard

4. Beguiler
Cleric
Druid
Generalist Wizard

5. Bard
Cleric
Dragonfire Adept
Druid
Generalist Wizard

All human with Able Learner and Nymph's kiss and a 1 level factotum dip and personally I would PRC the @#$% out of all of them

[Rleonardh]

Beguiler I never considered truthfully.

I do like a dip in it, for a wizard if you need a trap finder and umd Is always nice. But the selling point for me would be the light armor no spell failure.

[RandomPeasant]

The answer to this depends a bit on what exactly you're looking for. Level range changes things a good bit, as does optimization.

At first level, the optimal party is some mix of Crusader, Warblade, Beguiler, Druid, Incarnate, and maybe Totemist. Fighter is reasonably viable at 1st level, and Crusader and Warblade get meaningful upgrades on top of that. Beguiler is hands-down the best arcane spellcaster at first level because you cast the good Wizard offensive spells, cast spontaneously, have a bunch of utility spells, and also do the job of a Rogue out of combat. Druid gets a wolf that is about as good as a non-ToB martial and also spellcasting. MoI classes can push their scaling in ways that let them overperform at low levels.

For a party that is going to progress through a 1-20 campaign, pretty much any full-caster is fine. You definitely want a Beguiler (and not as a dip on a Wizard), because they cover trapfinding for free while providing decent spellcasting. An Artificer can technically do the same, but Artificers are not good at low levels. Infusions don't go off in combat time, and UMDing scrolls is not initially reliable. Plus, by mid and high levels the Artificer's UMD check is reliable with minimal investment, so pumping it early is awkward for organic builds. You want a Cleric and/or a Druid to handle the frontline, and a Dread Necromancer isn't a bad pick for the same reason. I'm somewhat down on Archivist in this context, because you want a Cleric, and the ability to plunder other lists takes time and effort to be reliably ahead of knowing one list for free (this goes double if you went Druid + Cleric).

For a party that is going to start at high levels, you could honestly do worse than four Artificers. The class can be built to do whatever you want, and once you make it past the low-level issues, it has access to every broken trick in the book. If you're not allowing duplicates for some reason, Artificer/Wizard/Archivist/Erudite is a pretty good base once you've gotten to the point that spells can cover your beatstick needs. Maybe replace the Erudite with something else if your DM isn't going to provide opportunities to pick up a range of powers. That said, any spellcaster is perfectly capable of breaking the game by ~10th level, so there's really no wrong way to eat this reeses, just different personal preferences.

If I had to give one answer, Beguiler/Druid/Wizard/Cleric is probably the pick. Every niche is covered at every level, and every character can be built in multiple ways and contribute effectively. You do lose a bit of the power ceiling at high levels, but those classes are perfectly capable of hitting any balance point you care to name.

[Rleonardh]

Beguiler/Druid/Wizard/Cleric is probably the pick. Every niche is covered at every level, and every character can be built in multiple ways and contribute effectively. You do lose a bit of the power ceiling at high levels, but those classes are perfectly capable of hitting any balance point you care to name.

This was along of the lines I was thinking.
You got front, divine, skill monkey, arcane

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Whatever 5, Illumian with the Krau sigil and Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler and Able Learner. Gets 19/20 Wizard casting and 8th level Beguiler casting. On an Int-SAD character this gets you all the Rogue skills and all the Wizard skills and all the Wizard casting and most of the spontaneous utility casting. Not exactly great solo (unless you have Wild Cohort from a flaw maybe) but perfect for filling multiple roles in a 2+ character party.

Cloistered Cleric 20 with the Trickery and Kobold domains. Gets Bluff, Disguise, Hide, Search, Disable Device, and trapfinding (without calling it trapfinding). Add the Whispered Secrets feat (if you can swing it with those domains) for Listen and Spot and a bunch of other perks. You can actually make an all-Cleric party using this as the trap disarmer.

Six Bards (or three, plus three Bard cohorts), five have DFI, four of those have Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 for Draconic Heritage, the sixth doesn't have DFI and just inspires courage normally. Add one or two more Bards for Inspire Awe to debuff opponents. Give them all Wild Cohort and they can use shortbows, all of the attacks will benefit from the inspirations. They only need Bard 8, fill out the rest with dips (typically Dragonblood Sorcerer 1, Dragon Devotee 1) and Sublime Chord plus prestige classes that advance SC casting. The Inspire Awe build dips one into each of Dread Witch and Nightmare Spinner in the first ten levels, then takes the remaining levels of both of those to advance SC casting.

[lylsyly]

Six Bards (or three, plus three Bard cohorts), five have DFI, four of those have Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 for Draconic Heritage, the sixth doesn't have DFI and just inspires courage normally. Add one or two more Bards for Inspire Awe to debuff opponents. Give them all Wild Cohort and they can use shortbows, all of the attacks will benefit from the inspirations. They only need Bard 8, fill out the rest with dips (typically Dragonblood Sorcerer 1, Dragon Devotee 1) and Sublime Chord plus prestige classes that advance SC casting. The Inspire Awe build dips one into each of Dread Witch and Nightmare Spinner in the first ten levels, then takes the remaining levels of both of those to advance SC casting.

Bards can be built in so many different ways ;-)

[Gnaeus]

For a party that is going to progress through a 1-20 campaign, pretty much any full-caster is fine. You definitely want a Beguiler (and not as a dip on a Wizard), because they cover trapfinding for free while providing decent spellcasting. An Artificer can technically do the same, but Artificers are not good at low levels. Infusions don't go off in combat time, and UMDing scrolls is not initially reliable. Plus, by mid and high levels the Artificer's UMD check is reliable with minimal investment, so pumping it early is awkward for organic builds.

I wouldn't take an artificer over a beguiler in a small party. But by the time you hit Artificer, Cleric, Druid I don't think the artificer is a liability at low levels. Boring to play, perhaps. But a level 1 artificer can reliably add +1 AC to the cleric and the Druids pet, and craft scrolls for the divine casters to use at a time when they can't likely afford a cure stick and definitely don't have enough spells/day. If you assume a druid built for wildshape (so a druid who dumps Str and Dex), the druid will also be hungry for useful actions in combat, and handing him a bunch of scrolls to use while the pet and the cleric melee is definitely a non-trivial combat contribution. Depending on your group's playstyle (do you have time to craft 20 druid scrolls? Are you likely to face adventuring days with lots of encounters?) having a giant ready pool of expendables may be more valuable than the beguiler's 4 spells per day. Or at least not so much of a liability as to make the artificer non viable until he is effectively doubling the party WBL, and that starts as early as level 3.

[RandomPeasant]

I wouldn't take an artificer over a beguiler in a small party. But by the time you hit Artificer, Cleric, Druid I don't think the artificer is a liability at low levels.

I think they are certainly a liability relative to a Beguiler. +1 to AC does not remotely compare to sleep or color spray.


craft scrolls for the divine casters to use at a time when they can't likely afford a cure stick and definitely don't have enough spells/day.

I don't think that works. To activate a scroll "the spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine)", while an Artificer creates items that are "neither arcane nor divine". And, no, it's not that a scroll of bless counts as divine because bless is a divine spell, the same requirement for activating a scroll says that "The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class" (plus that's not really a coherent notion, as there are plenty of spells that appear on arcane and divine lists, or ways to cast divine spells as arcane or vice versa).

That said, even if it does work, I'm not convinced it's amazing. You're buying scrolls at half price, with a reasonable failure rate. Even if you go 18 CHA and Skill Focus, neither of which you want in the long term, you're still only around 50% to make the UMD check to craft the scroll. I just don't see how you justify that over someone who casts spells that make you win, has significant magical utility of their own, and works as a skillmonkey.

[Gnaeus]

I think they are certainly a liability relative to a Beguiler. +1 to AC does not remotely compare to sleep or color spray.



I don't think that works. To activate a scroll "the spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine)", while an Artificer creates items that are "neither arcane nor divine". And, no, it's not that a scroll of bless counts as divine because bless is a divine spell, the same requirement for activating a scroll says that "The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class" (plus that's not really a coherent notion, as there are plenty of spells that appear on arcane and divine lists, or ways to cast divine spells as arcane or vice versa).

That said, even if it does work, I'm not convinced it's amazing. You're buying scrolls at half price, with a reasonable failure rate. Even if you go 18 CHA and Skill Focus, neither of which you want in the long term, you're still only around 50% to make the UMD check to craft the scroll. I just don't see how you justify that over someone who casts spells that make you win, has significant magical utility of their own, and works as a skillmonkey.

No no. You provide the feat, they provide the spell. You CAN craft items with a skill check, but you can also just craft scrolls like anyone else with the scribe scroll feat who lacks that spell. Just like a wizard can work with a cleric to make a divine scroll of CLW, so can an artificer. The Druid can use a scroll of a druid spell that he made cooperatively with an Artificer with 0 failure rate. And since that druid has 2 spells per day and about an 8 str and dex, it is much more efficient for the artificer to make the druid a dozen scrolls of CLW and snakes swiftness and whatever. Then the artificer, who typically is built at least mildly for melee or ranged combat, fires his crossbow, while the Druid, who sucks at those things until at least level 6, can actually be a caster. The artificer may have a scroll of clw on him, but he will only make UMD checks in an emergency. As I said, its BORING. You get to sit there and fire your light crossbow every round with your mediocre physicals and BAB. But What you are actually providing is enough spells for the druid (and to a lesser extent the cleric, who is presumably playing fighter but may still want to toss spells on occasion). to be a caster through the adventuring day.

[RandomPeasant]

No no. You provide the feat, they provide the spell. You CAN craft items with a skill check, but you can also just craft scrolls like anyone else with the scribe scroll feat who lacks that spell.

So just have the Cleric take Scribe Scroll (which he probably wants to anyway, because Dweomerkeeper) and he can do the exact same thing. Sure, the Artificer gets a 20-point craft reserve, but I don't think saving 20 XP is worth giving up full Beguiler spellcasting. You also become heavily reliant on downtime, because you're only crafting one scroll a day. Sometimes it will be worth it to spend a week crafting scrolls and then have an adventuring day where the Druid "casts" 9 spells. But other times it will be better to simply adventure, and have the Druid cast 16 spells over those same 8 days.

[sleepyphoenixx]

So just have the Cleric take Scribe Scroll (which he probably wants to anyway, because Dweomerkeeper) and he can do the exact same thing. Sure, the Artificer gets a 20-point craft reserve, but I don't think saving 20 XP is worth giving up full Beguiler spellcasting. You also become heavily reliant on downtime, because you're only crafting one scroll a day. Sometimes it will be worth it to spend a week crafting scrolls and then have an adventuring day where the Druid "casts" 9 spells. But other times it will be better to simply adventure, and have the Druid cast 16 spells over those same 8 days.

Artificers get access to every 1st level spell at level 1 with no crafting required via the Spell-Storing Item infusion.
Which scales up to 4th level spells, still from 1st level slots. At 5th level they get Concurrent Infusions to get three of them from a single 3rd level slot.

The only thing you're giving up compared to a beguiler is some skill points.

[RandomPeasant]

spell-storing item takes a DC 23 UMD check to use to emulate a 1st level spell. Good luck making that at 1st level. I do not dispute that the Artificer is powerful at mid and high levels. But it really doesn't do much at low, particularly very low, levels. And you know what? Every spellcaster is powerful at mid and high levels. Practically speaking, Artificer is trading power when you have very little of it for power when you have a lot of it, which is just not a great strategy.

[Gnaeus]

spell-storing item takes a DC 23 UMD check to use to emulate a 1st level spell. Good luck making that at 1st level. I do not dispute that the Artificer is powerful at mid and high levels. But it really doesn't do much at low, particularly very low, levels. And you know what? Every spellcaster is powerful at mid and high levels. Practically speaking, Artificer is trading power when you have very little of it for power when you have a lot of it, which is just not a great strategy.

Cleric won't be taking Scribe scrolls at 1, because he will be taking Craft Wands at 6. Druid won't be taking scribe scrolls at 1 because he is taking craft wondrous at 3 to make sure he has wildling clasps. When you hit member 4 (the wizard) he WOULD be taking scribe scrolls at 1, but now doesn't have to, and can take abrupt jaunt or something instead. Artificer is flat out increasing every other caster's power, beginning at level 1, and significantly by level 3.

[RandomPeasant]

Cleric won't be taking Scribe scrolls at 1, because he will be taking Craft Wands at 6.

Scribe Scroll gets you into Dweomerkeeper at 6th. That's a fine pick. But even if the Cleric wouldn't normally take Scribe Scroll, that doesn't mean it's worth taking an Artificer to get it. Swapping the Artificer to a Beguiler lets you upgrade from "+1 to AC to a couple targets" to "4+ castings of color spray or sleep". That is absolutely worth taking a sub-par feat. Don't get me wrong, the Artificer pulls ahead in the long run. But at 1st level the only reason you'd bring an Artificer is if you were absolutely certain you'd have large amounts of gold and downtime. If you are adventuring every day, or even every three days, a Beguiler is adding more firepower to the party than the scrolls an Artificer could craft.

[Gnaeus]

Scribe Scroll gets you into Dweomerkeeper at 6th. That's a fine pick. But even if the Cleric wouldn't normally take Scribe Scroll, that doesn't mean it's worth taking an Artificer to get it. Swapping the Artificer to a Beguiler lets you upgrade from "+1 to AC to a couple targets" to "4+ castings of color spray or sleep". That is absolutely worth taking a sub-par feat. Don't get me wrong, the Artificer pulls ahead in the long run. But at 1st level the only reason you'd bring an Artificer is if you were absolutely certain you'd have large amounts of gold and downtime. If you are adventuring every day, or even every three days, a Beguiler is adding more firepower to the party than the scrolls an Artificer could craft.

So how is a cleric in a base class only party accessing dweomerkeeper, a prc?

If taking sub par feats to aid survivability at L1 was commonly encouraged, every wizard would have toughness, which is a fine pick for a wizard 1, and bad at virtually all other times.

As I said, party play style and location does affect this. Aside from downtime availability, there is adventuring day length (longer days favor artificer) and likely enemy type (undead, vermin, constructs favor artificer)

Also, there is no reason this is strictly a level 1 conversation. What happens at 2? Beguiler gets one more cast of a spell he could cast before, artificer gets a new craft reserve and also brew potion, another feat that is excellent for a low level caster heavy party. Now the Beguiler can drink a 100% success rate potion of any cleric or druid spell, or have a chance of crafting any potion. There are plenty of those worth having and he has plenty of free xp What happens at level 3? Oh hey, the Beguiler gets another spell known and 1 more L1 spell/day, the artificer gets one of the best feats in the game for free, which someone else would have had to take. And also gets second level infusions, and is making scrolls and potions of second level spells. At level 4? Instead of doubling party WBL, he is doubling +25%. So the clear Beguiler advantage is maybe the first 2 levels? Maybe only level 1 in a sandbox.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm.


1?
+Druid. At low levels, a riding dog is a fine meatshield. At higher levels, Wildshape handles that. And wildshape also helps with stealth. Mid levels can handle traps (loudly) via Summon Elemental reserve feat. Low levels are "Great... I heal my riding dog again..."

2?
+Cloistered cleric (Domains: Kobold/Trickery): Trapfinding, stealth, skills, divine spells. Mostly a good skill monkey. Can get meatshields via summoning or animate dead (or Craft Construct).

3?
+Beguiler. Proper skillmonkey. Uses mind control to get meatshields.
Also change domains on cleric. Keep trickery, but use Luck (or better, Pride) instead. No more trapfinding, but rerolls.

4?
+Killer gnome wizard. Primary arcanist, can do SO MANY THINGS. Also stealth.

[Rleonardh]

Beguiler 1/druid 19
can be trap finder, searcher, scout

Cleric 3/barbarian 1/cleric 16
mini charger, DMM if not allowed

Beguiler 1/wizard 19
Party face, information gathering, other things missed by druid

Sorcerer 20 or Artificer 20

5th: whatever not chosen as 4th


More I hear more I like Artificer, honestly never considered them. Also they can make a item that boosts spell craft that would help them greatly also.

Never new you didn't have to take scribe scroll for wizard.
Where did I miss that at??

[RandomPeasant]

So how is a cleric in a base class only party accessing dweomerkeeper, a prc?

Ah, oops. I missed that line in the OP and saw someone talking about Ultimate Magus. Still, it is worth pointing out that no PrCs skews things towards the Artificer (and Druid, and even Dread Necromancer a bit) as it doesn't want them. A Cleric would very much like to become a Dweomerkeeper or Radiant Servant. Similarly with Wizard and Master Specialist or Incantatrix or Beguiler and Rainbow Servant or Shadowcraft Mage.


If taking sub par feats to aid survivability at L1 was commonly encouraged, every wizard would have toughness, which is a fine pick for a wizard 1, and bad at virtually all other times.

If Scribe Scroll is such a bad feat, why are you spending a party slot on someone who's primary justification is that they provide it?


As I said, party play style and location does affect this. Aside from downtime availability, there is adventuring day length (longer days favor artificer) and likely enemy type (undead, vermin, constructs favor artificer)

I disagree about enemy type. Vermin are mindless by definition, and get boxed by silent image, which favors the Beguiler. So are most undead and constructs at low levels, and at low levels turning is often going to blow up undead anyway, so the Cleric makes those foes moot. You're only really worried about Ghouls, which combine turn resistance with not being mindless.


Also, there is no reason this is strictly a level 1 conversation. What happens at 2? Beguiler gets one more cast of a spell he could cast before, artificer gets a new craft reserve and also brew potion, another feat that is excellent for a low level caster heavy party.

The craft reserve is not exactly a huge deal when all you're crafting is 1st level scrolls. You save literal 1 XP a pop. Similarly, Brew Potion is not a huge upgrade here, since how you burn gold and downtime to make consumables matters less than how much you have. Certainly, in circumstances that favor an Artificer, the Artificer gets better when he can make potions in addition to scrolls. But it doesn't help him pull ahead when he's behind.


What happens at level 3? Oh hey, the Beguiler gets another spell known and 1 more L1 spell/day, the artificer gets one of the best feats in the game for free, which someone else would have had to take. And also gets second level infusions, and is making scrolls and potions of second level spells.

I thought you were all excited about the Druid taking Craft Wondrous for their wildling clasps. Regardless, the non-Artificer party gets to make 2nd level scrolls at this point too, though admittedly not having the craft reserve is starting to hurt a bit. Still, I don't see the Artificer pulling ahead until he hits the point that he can reliably make the UMD checks he needs to do dumpster-diving item creation and/or use spell-storing item in combat. Maybe earlier if you have a lot of downtime and significant wealth (but not so much you can just buy whatever you want anyway).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Beguiler 1/druid 19
can be trap finder, searcher, scout
If you want your druid to find traps you can just take Shape Soulmeld for Theft Gloves and Open Least Chakra. Better to spend 2 feats instead of losing a level of everything.
Though you can also do it entirely with items if you get the Keeper's Guide (DComp, 24k gp, grants trapfinding as a rogue and +3 insight to search).

That's usually better on an int-focused class though, and wizards get better spells to boost those skills so they don't even have to invest skill points to do well at it.


More I hear more I like Artificer, honestly never considered them. Also they can make a item that boosts spell craft that would help them greatly also.
Artificers need UMD not spellcraft.
The checks are fairly easy after you get a few levels even without an item since the DC scales slowly and you can use Spell Storing Item to abuse any skill boosting spells you want.
At level 4 you can grab Magic Savant (CM) for a +4 insight bonus, on level 5 you can persist it with Metamagic Item, on level 7 it lets you take 10. Then your UMD troubles are basically over.

If you're really worried about low levels you can simply spend a feat on Least Dragonmark of Making and spend your infusions on Summon Marked Homunculus to get three Arbalesters for an hour each, but you're usually fine just abusing Personal Weapon Augmentation with Bane.


Never new you didn't have to take scribe scroll for wizard.
Where did I miss that at??

The wizard variant that trades Scribe Scroll for a fighter bonus feat is from UA.