Looking for a PrC with a lot (sp) or (su)... But no spellcasting

[Condé]

Hi,

TL;DR: What I'm looking for is like a martial class with some more stuff to do. (Read further for restrictions)

I'm looking for a prestige class with a lot of Spell-like abilities or Supernatural abilities. But I don't want to be a spellcaster. So far, most of them are for EVIL people.

Thrall of Juiblex for example, or the Disciple of Mephistopheles... Sentinel of Bharrai is excellent too if you don't care about the + spellcasting. (Which I mean is probably an heresy for a lot of people here but being ab ear who can call a quickened Call Lightning is already cool enough).

I love Binder, Totemist, Dragon Disciple and Warlock for that: their features are (mostly) usable at will.

I checked almost every book in 3.5 & 3.0. But you know, maybe I missed something really obvious. But I can't really find anything that fit what I'm looking for.
- Must not be Evil. (Or maybe, but please, one that doesn't you to sacrifice a sentient being in a convoluted way)
- Prestige Class. (Prefer not Templates)
- Might come from a race, why not.
- Big plus if there is a damaging ability. Even if it is bad. Who doesn't like a little bit of blasting from times to times?
- And big plus is the prc is pretty obscure. Don't really care if it is "good" or not.

I know about the Stonelord. But. Well. It is... Yeah. And its abilities are far from "At-will". And the Elemental Warrior? Sounds fun on paper... Really sad that most of its feature come late (You can enter the class at 8) and most have a one minute duration, are once per day etc...

It might sounds specific... And it is. And that is why it is fun. But it takes way too much times and I think I might need a bit of help here.

Thanks.

[pabelfly]

Its a base class, not a PrC, but you could consider a Truename gish. It would work well after level 9 when you can get Quicken Utterance and buff/debuff as a swift action and still get your full attack off, likely with a reach weapon. Your SLAs range from weak to unique, but with ten levels you could pick up thirteen utterances, including a fourth-level Utterance (probably spell of rebirth).

[Gruftzwerg]

Warshaper could fit the bill here. 1 Ex the rest SU abilities.
Easy early entry via Changeling (at lvl5! if you have full BAB).
Changeling gives all day long access to the warshaper abilities.


But be aware that "Warshaper" is one of the "broken" prc that can easily mess up your party balance if taken RAW. It's written very poorly and offers to much power if taken RAW. So check with your DM first before using it.

The problem here is the "Morphic Weapon" ability. If you wanna know more on this, just ask and I or someone else will explain the problem for you.

[StSword]

How does your table feel about third party?

Dreamscarred Press' Tome of Channeling has an alternate magic system that might interest you. The limit on their incantations, which are in fact supernatural abilities, isn't per day, but per minute, once per minute per your Channeling Ability Modifier, which one chooses as one likes from either Wisdom or Charisma.

Not very martial though, I'm afraid.

The Nexus, the base class, and the affiliated prestige classes cast incantations from a single sphere- Astrology, Elements, Mind, and Nature, with rules to convert thematically appropriate spells or psionic powers into more incantations.

The Oathbound setting, originally by Bastian Press, has a different channeling system, in which one channels the power of a god directly. Supposed to be setting specific but that's easily ignored.

I can't find my d20 book, so I'm relying on memory and my pathfinder version. The Channeling prestige class that seems to be similar to what you are looking for is the Disjoiner, a gishy channeler who channels that divine power into destruction, either flinging blasts of destruction or wrapping it around their weapons. Channeling isn't all day though, but comes out of a mana pool.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Not to point out the obvious, but what about ToB? Because it sounds like that's exactly what you want.
If that's not enough the PF disciplines are also pretty good and can be backported pretty easily. Some of them are pretty high power though compared to the ToB ones.

[Condé]

Its a base class, not a PrC, but you could consider a Truename gish. It would work well after level 9 when you can get Quicken Utterance and buff/debuff as a swift action and still get your full attack off, likely with a reach weapon. Your SLAs range from weak to unique, but with ten levels you could pick up thirteen utterances, including a fourth-level Utterance (probably spell of rebirth).

Interesting. Level 9 might be a bit late tho. But I didn't think about this class so I'll give it a look.


Warshaper could fit the bill here. 1 Ex the rest SU abilities.
Easy early entry via Changeling (at lvl5! if you have full BAB).
Changeling gives all day long access to the warshaper abilities.


But be aware that "Warshaper" is one of the "broken" prc that can easily mess up your party balance if taken RAW. It's written very poorly and offers to much power if taken RAW. So check with your DM first before using it.

The problem here is the "Morphic Weapon" ability. If you wanna know more on this, just ask and I or someone else will explain the problem for you.

I'm more than aware that the warshaper exist. And it is great. Sadly, we mostly play on FR and not Eberron. Even if there is many other way to enter the warshaper prc. But I'm looking for something more "spell-ish" without spells.


How does your table feel about third party?

Dreamscarred Press' Tome of Channeling has an alternate magic system that might interest you. The limit on their incantations, which are in fact supernatural abilities, isn't per day, but per minute, once per minute per your Channeling Ability Modifier, which one chooses as one likes from either Wisdom or Charisma.

Not very martial though, I'm afraid.

The Nexus, the base class, and the affiliated prestige classes cast incantations from a single sphere- Astrology, Elements, Mind, and Nature, with rules to convert thematically appropriate spells or psionic powers into more incantations.

Never played with third party stuff and that is not my cup of tea, I must admit.


Not to point out the obvious, but what about ToB? Because it sounds like that's exactly what you want.

Funnily enough, I deleted a paragraph on the op about Tome of Battle. They are mostly fine, but way too obvious. I'm trying to find something people never heard of. And Tome of Battle is not exactly an obscure source.

(Thank you all anyway, I don't want to sound harsh or anything... I think I might be looking for something REALLY special and I can't find it. It's bothering me.)

To be honest, I have to make a build with Core + 1 book of my choice.

Hellreaver, Totemist, Binder. All are fine and mostly what I'm looking for. The thing is, they are in a book with almost no support. Which, I mean, sounds perfect for that kind of situation. But, I like to make convoluted things and build a character with many pieces. A build like Binder 20, Totemist 20 is going to be pretty boring to make. (Might be fun to play tho)

[pabelfly]

Interesting. Level 9 might be a bit late tho. But I didn't think about this class so I'll give it a look.

I mean, character level 9, since you need twelve ranks in Truespeak. What level range are you playing, and how much of your character is set in stone?

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm more than aware that the warshaper exist. And it is great. Sadly, we mostly play on FR and not Eberron. Even if there is many other way to enter the warshaper prc. But I'm looking for something more "spell-ish" without spells.


Hm, maybe Arcane Duelist? We had recently a Iron Chef round with that. You might find there some interesting builds.

[Wildstag]

For Warlock PrCs, there's the Enlightened Spirit, which is exclusively Su and Sp. Sentinel of Bharrai doesn't require casting to enter and exclusively gets Sp and Su (aside from energy resistance). Allows you to do a lot of bear-like things and eventually summon bears.

The Mythic Exemplar is kinda Oerthian in design, but you might be able to adapt it to FR. Similarly, the Sanctified One gets Su and Sp without requiring spells. The deities could easily be adapted to FR's deities.

P.S. There's also Incarnum! Incarnum Blade's often discouraged online, but I love it, and you get a few martial-friendly abilities. Everything about it is Su.

[Troacctid]

Here is my list of martial prestige classes that I think are interesting. A lot of them fail your criteria, because I originally made this list for my personal use, and my parameters are different from yours. But maybe there's still a few on here that you didn't know about and will find compelling.
* = spellcasting

For rogues and skillmonkeys:
Assassin*
Avenger*
Cabinet Trickster
Cancer Mage
Chameleon*
Charlatan
Child of Khyber
Disciple of Baalzebul
Disciple of Mephistopheles
Dragonmark Heir
Dungeon Delver
Ebonmar Infiltrator*
Elocater*
Evangelist
Exemplar
Eye of Xanathar
Faceless One
Fatemaker*
Halfling Whistler*
Hellbreaker
Hoardstealer*
Jaunter
Jobber
Life Eater
Magic Filcher*
Master of Masks
Master of the South Wind*
Mole
Mountebank
Oppressor
Paragnostic Initiate
Poisoner
Psibond Agent
Psionic Assassin*
Scorpion Heritor
Shade Hunter*
Shadowbane Stalker*
Skullclan Hunter
Slayer of Domiel*
Squire of Legend*
Telflammar Shadowlord*
Temple Raider*
Trapsmith*
Twisted Lord
Umbral Disciple
Unseen Seer*
Urban Savant*
Vigilant Sentinel of Aerenal
Vigilante*
Watch Detective

For warriors in general:
Beloved of Valarian*
Black Blood Cultist
Bloodstorm Blade
Chameleon*
Consecrated Harrier*
Crusader
Deep Thrall
Deepstone Sentinel
Divine Crusader*
Dragon Disciple*
Eternal Blade
Fist of Raziel*
Hellreaver
Horizon Walker
Infused Warrior
Ironsoul Forgemaster
Jaunter
Knight of the Raven*
Knight of the Weave*
Master of Many Forms
Master of Masks
Ordained Champion*
Paragnostic Initiate
Primeval
Ruby Knight Vindicator*
Sanctified One
Slayer*
Soldier of Light*
Suel Arcanamach*
Swordsage
Tainted Warrior
Telflammar Shadowlord*
Thrall of Demogorgon
Thrall of Juiblex
Thrall of Orcus
Ur-Priest*
War Mind*
Warblade
Warrior of Darkness
Warrior Skald
Warshaper
Wildrunner

For barbarians:
Bear Warrior
Champion of Gwynharwyf*
Disciple of Thrym*
Frenzied Berserker
Primal Rager (D295)
Runescarred Berserker*
Totem Rager

For monks:
Acolyte of the Fist (D296)
Disciple of Mephistopheles
Dragon Descendant
Enlightened Fist*
Fist of Dal Quor
Fist of the Forest
Fist of Zuoken*
Henshin Mystic
Jaunter
Master of the East Wind (D314)*
Master of the North Wind (D314)*
Master of the South Wind (D314)*
Master of the West Wind (D314)*
Sacred Fist*
Serene Guardian
Shadow Sun Ninja
Shen (D319)
Shou Disciple
Tattooed Monk
Telflammar Shadowlord*
Yakuza
Zerth Cenobite*

[Alabenson]

One possible option that I don't think has been mentioned here is Pyrokineticist. While it's technically a psionic class, the requirements can be met without any levels in psionic classes and it seems like it meets your criteria.

[Endarire]

What about martial adepts that have some (Su) maneuvers and stances?

[Morof Stonehands]

My vote goes to Jaunter (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits). No spellcasting, all abilities except 1 are Sp or Su.

[Condé]

I mean, character level 9, since you need twelve ranks in Truespeak. What level range are you playing, and how much of your character is set in stone?

Probably level 12. Maybe 13, no more. So yeah, level 9 to come online is a bit late. (In fact, a lot of interesting things I want to play are accessible in the 8-12 range. But having to wait this long for your character to be "fun" do not sound like a good time.

And I know how hard it can be, sometimes, to make a build even playable from 1 to 20. (Because you know, most the time you have some sweet spots when all you features come together but nobody talk about the "before" where you have to play a character with almost nothing at all because all you cared about was THAT specific level where what you've planned is working as you wanted.)


Hm, maybe Arcane Duelist? We had recently a Iron Chef round with that. You might find there some interesting builds.

It is an interesting one. A bit... Odd if you ask me. Saddly you have to wait Arcane Dueslit 9 to be able to use Mirror Image BUT it seems to be at will since it mentions nowhere it is once per day per level or similar like Blur. The poor BAB might be a problem, but the entry not so much.


For Warlock PrCs, there's the Enlightened Spirit, which is exclusively Su and Sp. Sentinel of Bharrai doesn't require casting to enter and exclusively gets Sp and Su (aside from energy resistance). Allows you to do a lot of bear-like things and eventually summon bears.

The Mythic Exemplar is kinda Oerthian in design, but you might be able to adapt it to FR. Similarly, the Sanctified One gets Su and Sp without requiring spells. The deities could easily be adapted to FR's deities.

P.S. There's also Incarnum! Incarnum Blade's often discouraged online, but I love it, and you get a few martial-friendly abilities. Everything about it is Su.

Elightened Spirit is interesting, yes. And a nice twist to the Warlock (not really in gameplay but in flavor).

Sentinel of Bharrai is a favorite of mine. Still trying to figure how to enter properly and how to play it as a non-caster, because what you want to focus on is the bear form. So you better not pump your physical attribute since you are going to have Strength, Dex and Con of a bear all day long, it would be a waste. But as a non-spellcaster, what are you going to do? If you want to be in bear form you will probably focus on Natural Attacks so Totemist, maybe. (Or keep a Two handed sword with the Opposable enhancement in bear form?) I know Troacctid made a Warlock/Sentinel of Bharrai build but it focus on the claws you get in a dragon mag. And my DM is not fond of Dragon Magazines.
So probably Paladin/Something to get the skill rank/Sentinel of Bharrai. But what to do while waiting for the bear form is a mystery. (Still tryin to figure it out tho)

Mythic Exemplar and Sanctified One are a bit underwhelming.


Here is my list of martial prestige classes that I think are interesting. A lot of them fail your criteria, because I originally made this list for my personal use, and my parameters are different from yours. But maybe there's still a few on here that you didn't know about and will find compelling.
* = spellcasting

For rogues and skillmonkeys:
Assassin*
Avenger*
Cabinet Trickster
Cancer Mage
Chameleon*
Charlatan
Child of Khyber
Disciple of Baalzebul
Disciple of Mephistopheles
Dragonmark Heir
Dungeon Delver
Ebonmar Infiltrator*
Elocater*
Evangelist
Exemplar
Eye of Xanathar
Faceless One
Fatemaker*
Halfling Whistler*
Hellbreaker
Hoardstealer*
Jaunter
Jobber
Life Eater
Magic Filcher*
Master of Masks
Master of the South Wind*
Mole
Mountebank
Oppressor
Paragnostic Initiate
Poisoner
Psibond Agent
Psionic Assassin*
Scorpion Heritor
Shade Hunter*
Shadowbane Stalker*
Skullclan Hunter
Slayer of Domiel*
Squire of Legend*
Telflammar Shadowlord*
Temple Raider*
Trapsmith*
Twisted Lord
Umbral Disciple
Unseen Seer*
Urban Savant*
Vigilant Sentinel of Aerenal
Vigilante*
Watch Detective

For warriors in general:
Beloved of Valarian*
Black Blood Cultist
Bloodstorm Blade
Chameleon*
Consecrated Harrier*
Crusader
Deep Thrall
Deepstone Sentinel
Divine Crusader*
Dragon Disciple*
Eternal Blade
Fist of Raziel*
Hellreaver
Horizon Walker
Infused Warrior
Ironsoul Forgemaster
Jaunter
Knight of the Raven*
Knight of the Weave*
Master of Many Forms
Master of Masks
Ordained Champion*
Paragnostic Initiate
Primeval
Ruby Knight Vindicator*
Sanctified One
Slayer*
Soldier of Light*
Suel Arcanamach*
Swordsage
Tainted Warrior
Telflammar Shadowlord*
Thrall of Demogorgon
Thrall of Juiblex
Thrall of Orcus
Ur-Priest*
War Mind*
Warblade
Warrior of Darkness
Warrior Skald
Warshaper
Wildrunner

For barbarians:
Bear Warrior
Champion of Gwynharwyf*
Disciple of Thrym*
Frenzied Berserker
Primal Rager (D295)
Runescarred Berserker*
Totem Rager

For monks:
Acolyte of the Fist (D296)
Disciple of Mephistopheles
Dragon Descendant
Enlightened Fist*
Fist of Dal Quor
Fist of the Forest
Fist of Zuoken*
Henshin Mystic
Jaunter
Master of the East Wind (D314)*
Master of the North Wind (D314)*
Master of the South Wind (D314)*
Master of the West Wind (D314)*
Sacred Fist*
Serene Guardian
Shadow Sun Ninja
Shen (D319)
Shou Disciple
Tattooed Monk
Telflammar Shadowlord*
Yakuza
Zerth Cenobite*

What worries me is that yes, I know them all. And I start to think I might be at a point where I saw every officially published PrC of the game and did not find what I'm looking for since it... Simply doesn't exist.
Really sad for the Disciple of Mephistopheles that you have to wait this long. (Level 7 if you are full BaB) Because it is more or less what I'm looking for.
Doomlord is like that bu even worse. You have to wait level 8 to enter and 10 level of the class to cast Disintegrate. Which is fun. But waiting to be CL 18 to cast a disintegrate once per day as a noncaster is a bit lame.


One possible option that I don't think has been mentioned here is Pyrokineticist. While it's technically a psionic class, the requirements can be met without any levels in psionic classes and it seems like it meets your criteria.

Really like the pyro. Really want to ask my DM to make an exception on psionics. (Often forgot they exist because they are rarely allowed with the people I play with.)


What about martial adepts that have some (Su) maneuvers and stances?

I know about them. They are fun and all but since I'm going to be limited in ressources, I think it is a bit too easy to build a character around ToB since... Since you can play a class of this book from 1 to 20 and be just fine.


My vote goes to Jaunter (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits). No spellcasting, all abilities except 1 are Sp or Su.

Jaunter is a good one. Since my DM is probably going to run Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, I suppose this class is tailor made for the module.

[pabelfly]

Probably level 12. Maybe 13, no more. So yeah, level 9 to come online is a bit late. (In fact, a lot of interesting things I want to play are accessible in the 8-12 range. But having to wait this long for your character to be "fun" do not sound like a good time.

And I know how hard it can be, sometimes, to make a build even playable from 1 to 20. (Because you know, most the time you have some sweet spots when all you features come together but nobody talk about the "before" where you have to play a character with almost nothing at all because all you cared about was THAT specific level where what you've planned is working as you wanted.)

If you want to do a Truename gish before level 9, you'd go with a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes, and you spend your turn buffing or casting offensively, and try to take attacks of opportunity. Maybe mix in a few levels of Fighter, etc to get extra feats to improve your damage. Level 9 is when you get Quicken and can cast twice a turn (it can be hard to reliably Quicken, at least to start with) or cast and full attack, plus attacks of opportunity. Not the most efficient build but was very fun to play at level 8.

[tiercel]

Depending how you feel about it, not a PrC, but:

Karsite Sorcerer (see thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?226048-Character-reoptimization-Karsite-sorcerer))

The idea is that as a Karsite (ToM), you literally can’t cast spells, but you can burn spell slots into various effects using various feats (notably, Heritage feats) and items, and since you’re not actually casting spells, Stalwart Battle Sorcerer doesn’t really hurt your not-spellcasting.

Medium BAB, barbarian-level hp, a couple of martial weapons, and all the excuses you can make to burn spell slots into (Su) effects (and presumably you can still even use scrolls/wands/staves).

[Condé]

If you want to do a Truename gish before level 9, you'd go with a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes, and you spend your turn buffing or casting offensively, and try to take attacks of opportunity. Maybe mix in a few levels of Fighter, etc to get extra feats to improve your damage. Level 9 is when you get Quicken and can cast twice a turn (it can be hard to reliably Quicken, at least to start with) or cast and full attack, plus attacks of opportunity. Not the most efficient build but was very fun to play at level 8.

Never had the courage to learn how the Truenamer work. Mostly because of its reputation. The more I read about it, the more I find it... Strange. Bizarre. Maybe it is because I'm not familiar with. If I ever play it I would have to read a loooot of thing before... Because I'm not sure what works and what don't. (And I think the designer didn't either)


Depending how you feel about it, not a PrC, but:

Karsite Sorcerer (see thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?226048-Character-reoptimization-Karsite-sorcerer))

The idea is that as a Karsite (ToM), you literally can’t cast spells, but you can burn spell slots into various effects using various feats (notably, Heritage feats) and items, and since you’re not actually casting spells, Stalwart Battle Sorcerer doesn’t really hurt your not-spellcasting.

Medium BAB, barbarian-level hp, a couple of martial weapons, and all the excuses you can make to burn spell slots into (Su) effects (and presumably you can still even use scrolls/wands/staves).

I only have one question.
Why?

I really like the idea. It's brilliant. Sadly I won't be able to play it for the incoming game but I will definitly keep this.

[pabelfly]

Never had the courage to learn how the Truenamer work. Mostly because of its reputation. The more I read about it, the more I find it... Strange. Bizarre. Maybe it is because I'm not familiar with. If I ever play it I would have to read a loooot of thing before... Because I'm not sure what works and what don't. (And I think the designer didn't either).

Can't argue with your assessment, there's definitely some stuff you'll have to discuss with your DM and work out together, or at least come up with a RAW interpretation that you're both happy with. Check out Zaq's Truename handbook if you want a great breakdown of how the class works - at least, the parts that are mechanically sound. But if you want an obscure option to mix in with your martial, which seems like you do, Truespeak is a pretty interesting option (at least, to me).

[Jervis]

Aren’t a lot of maneuvers supernatural? The ones from desert wind at least I believe are

[tiercel]

I only have one question.
Why?

I really like the idea. It's brilliant. Sadly I won't be able to play it for the incoming game but I will definitly keep this.

Heh. According to the linked thread, a mix of “I want to test my optimization-fu by making something insanely dumb sounding actually work” and even “to see if I/we can”…

…though I suspect part of the chain of thought is seeing how much “turn spell slots into effects” stuff is out there, finding it interesting but asking “what kind of character would really use all of that, since Spells Are Better,” and going down the rabbit hole to the logical extreme of “a character with the spell slots but who can’t cast spells, not just choosing not to.”

Admittedly, the concept might be an issue *in play* given that ToM has to be in play, playing a member of a race of generally evil xenophobes is on the table, and twisting the “anti-magic” lore for gain will fly (though karsites are pretty much aimed to be involved with binding, so it may not be *that* much of a stretch)…

[Jervis]

Heh. According to the linked thread, a mix of “I want to test my optimization-fu by making something insanely dumb sounding actually work” and even “to see if I/we can”…

…though I suspect part of the chain of thought is seeing how much “turn spell slots into effects” stuff is out there, finding it interesting but asking “what kind of character would really use all of that, since Spells Are Better,” and going down the rabbit hole to the logical extreme of “a character with the spell slots but who can’t cast spells, not just choosing not to.”

Admittedly, the concept might be an issue *in play* given that ToM has to be in play, playing a member of a race of generally evil xenophobes is on the table, and twisting the “anti-magic” lore for gain will fly (though karsites are pretty much aimed to be involved with binding, so it may not be *that* much of a stretch)…

One of these days I’d like to play a Karsite Psion/Erudite. The LA is an issue though.

[Condé]

I might have really look every books. Pretty sad most Dragon Mag stuff is not allowed at my table, otherwise all my problems would be gone by now.

There is a lot of cool concepts and classes you get waaaaay too late. Exemple?

In Song and Silence (Pretty obscure book I believe), you have the Fang of Lolth. You slowly become a spider-like creature. At level 3 you have a nice little bite attack with some poison. At level 9 you even get Extra-limbs. The description is really nice and I think the class, probably not good at all, is really unique. The sad part ? You need 10 ranks in UMD. (UMD is not the problem, the ranks are) That mean you now have to wait ECL17 before having this far-from-broken cool unique feature.

In DoTU (I love Drow related-stuff, it's not my fault) you have the Eye of Lolth (Yeah, her again). You have a nice Adaptation paragraph telling you that you can reflavor the class and replace all the teamwork class features for Disguise self, Alter self and polymorph. Sounds nice, right?
It's not. Waiting minimum ECL 9 for disguise self, not even at-will is... Painful.

Why can't martial classes have nice things too?

At least with Thrall of Juiblex you can have Alter Self at will at ECL 8. And even then, it is nothing broken I believe, since it is mostly designed for NPCs, you need 2 not-so-great feats, AND you need to dissolve an innocent in the presence of 3 oozes, slimes or puddings. Good luck with that at level 4. (Earliest level you can enter the class)
Oh and in a practical way, almost no DM would let you take this class and you would have a hard time justifying being in a party. (It is not the hardest part but still, you are an evil cultist who like big bad slimy thing with tentacles... Which is not going to fit most groups of adventurers.)

--

Hm, and not-so-much related question... Would a Mulhorandi Divine Minion be still considered "cheesy" without access to MoMF, Warshaper or the like? I mean free action wildshape is really good but the animal form is going to be quite behind past a certain level, right?
(And assuming you do not regain hitpoints after each wildshape as a druid)

[Darg]

Elightened Spirit is interesting, yes. And a nice twist to the Warlock (not really in gameplay but in flavor).

Play it with the rule that Warlock and Enlightened Spirit levels stack for determining access to level appropriate invocations. This way you aren't cheated out of your dark invocations.

[Telonius]

Gatecrasher from Manual of the Planes has a bunch of Sp and Su abilities, but no spellcasting. It is a weird little PrC.

[MornShine]

I'm not sure of at-will SLA's, but prestige classes I haven't seen mentioned yet:


Dungeon Delver, which gets a small handful SLA's

Unfortunately, the SLA's aren't particularly interesting-- they mimic utility spells
Entry at 8th is possible, but the first SLA (augury) isn't until the second level
No blasting included


Zerth Cenobyte, the classic Monk psi-like-ability-master

Monk-only, unfortunately (requires Still Mind)
Doesn't actually have SLA's, just PLA's (everything's psionic)

And gets a tiny bit of manifesting, sorry.


Everything is 1/day or 2/day
No direct blasting...
BUT, a heap of cool, unique, useful abilities for enhancing melee offense/defense


Master of Masks, I totally forgot about this one

Skill-based prereqs, entry at 5th
Unfortunately, 1/2 BAB
Advances spellcasting, but does not require it
Different spell-like abilities depending on the mask
HAS BLASTING with Archmage


Halfling Whistler

Easy prereqs, if you're willing to be a halfling
1/2 BAB, advances spellcasting (not required)
Awesome SLA's, new ones every level, but no direct blasting


Factoum technically casts through SLA's
A whole bunch of the Dragonmarked classes use SLA's, and dragonmarks themselves are SLA's for martial characters... but if you don't play in Ebberon, well

EDIT:



Mythic Exemplar from Complete Champion, this is an odd one

Easy prereqs, just two skills
3/4 BAB but can advance sneak attack, more martial things.

A grab-bag of bonuses, really


Can grant a handful of 1/day supernatural and spell-like abilities
Probably inferior to Master of Masks

If you want more powerful abilities but only helping allies, consider the partner class Squire of Legend.

[Faily]

If you could find a way to get Bardic Music without spellcasting (so not being a Bard), Seeker of the Song (Complete Arcane) is a prestige class wholly dedicated to supernatural-effects based on performances. It doesn't advance any spellcasting, but instead has music that creates special effects that can be used for offense or defense.


Honestly it's kind of what I would want the Bard class to be instead of spellcaster.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Hm, and not-so-much related question... Would a Mulhorandi Divine Minion be still considered "cheesy" without access to MoMF, Warshaper or the like? I mean free action wildshape is really good but the animal form is going to be quite behind past a certain level, right?
(And assuming you do not regain hitpoints after each wildshape as a druid)

Even limited to animal forms and without the healing you get by RAW the ability to switch form at-will with zero cost is too powerful for most games.
Not being able to take the ideal form for everything that pops up and the action cost of switching mid-fight are important balancing factors for WS.
And it's still one of the most powerful abilities in the game after 9th level casting.

You're essentially handing someone 20 levels of wildshape, the 5th level of warshaper and two feats for free, on top of whatever other levels he actually takes.

[ben-zayb]

Siren (Savage Species): You get lots of song-themed supernatural abilities and a decent Charisma bonus. You may either have to use a monster race or dip into totemist to qualify for the sonic attack.

Master of the Unseen Hand (Complete Warrior): You'd need to get Telekinesis from something like the Ghost template to make use of this PrC. Otherwise, it enhances Telekinesis greatly.

Tattooed Monk (Complete Warrior): 5 tattooes (Sp or Su) across 10 levels. It's a monk class, so that means you get all the optimization baggage that comes along that.

Spellfire Channeler (Magic of Faerun): Spellfire is a bit of its own system, and this class gives you plenty (8) Sp/Su abilities based on that theme.

[Rynjin]

Does 3.5 have a version of Pathfinder's Horizon Walker (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/apg/horizon-walker/)? It's a neat little Ranger PrC that's easy to qualify for and surprisingly powerful. Even if not, it just kinda slots in backwards compatible with no issues as far as I know.

[Telonius]

Yes, the Horizon Walker (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm) was a thing in 3.5. The abilities aren't labeled as Sp or Su though.

[StSword]

I've been loath to mention it since it's finicky (per the setting if you are a ghost you can only advance ghost classes, if you are alive again you can't use ghost feats, if you gain more ghost classes you move on so you have to get resurrected to avoid that) and setting specific, but there is the Ghostwalk Eidolon for completeness sake.

For a living outsider ghost template that can be applied to any humanoid if memory serves, it's the ghost equivalent of the a fighter, but their bonus feats are ghost feats that grant supernatural abilities. Like making stuff out of ectoplasm, touch attacks, possession, poltergeist stuff, etc.

Playing Danny Phantom the class would certainly be different.

[Condé]

First, thank you everyone for your suggestions.


Play it with the rule that Warlock and Enlightened Spirit levels stack for determining access to level appropriate invocations. This way you aren't cheated out of your dark invocations.

I didn't know this rule existed. Definitly going to look for this through.


Gatecrasher from Manual of the Planes has a bunch of Sp and Su abilities, but no spellcasting. It is a weird little PrC.

Weird is the right word, yes. And probably really campaign specific, I mean, these abilities are not what you use anywhere else. It's interesting but not really what I'm looking for to be honest. Or maybe I'm missing something.


I'm not sure of at-will SLA's, but prestige classes I haven't seen mentioned yet:


Dungeon Delver, which gets a small handful SLA's

Unfortunately, the SLA's aren't particularly interesting-- they mimic utility spells
Entry at 8th is possible, but the first SLA (augury) isn't until the second level
No blasting included


Zerth Cenobyte, the classic Monk psi-like-ability-master

Monk-only, unfortunately (requires Still Mind)
Doesn't actually have SLA's, just PLA's (everything's psionic)

And gets a tiny bit of manifesting, sorry.


Everything is 1/day or 2/day
No direct blasting...
BUT, a heap of cool, unique, useful abilities for enhancing melee offense/defense


Master of Masks, I totally forgot about this one

Skill-based prereqs, entry at 5th
Unfortunately, 1/2 BAB
Advances spellcasting, but does not require it
Different spell-like abilities depending on the mask
HAS BLASTING with Archmage


Halfling Whistler

Easy prereqs, if you're willing to be a halfling
1/2 BAB, advances spellcasting (not required)
Awesome SLA's, new ones every level, but no direct blasting


Factoum technically casts through SLA's
A whole bunch of the Dragonmarked classes use SLA's, and dragonmarks themselves are SLA's for martial characters... but if you don't play in Ebberon, well

EDIT:



Mythic Exemplar from Complete Champion, this is an odd one

Easy prereqs, just two skills
3/4 BAB but can advance sneak attack, more martial things.

A grab-bag of bonuses, really


Can grant a handful of 1/day supernatural and spell-like abilities
Probably inferior to Master of Masks

If you want more powerful abilities but only helping allies, consider the partner class Squire of Legend.




Dungeon Delver doesn't offer much, I must say. Zerth Cenobyte is interesting but Psionics are banned at my table, sadly. (Otherwise I would probably have played a Pyrokineticist just for fun) I always liked the concept of the Master of Masks but you have so little and way too late to work with. It is really an underwhelming one.

Mythic Exemplar is kind of Meh to be honest. If I remember correctly someone already suggested this one and... I don't know. Doesn't look very appealing to me.



If you could find a way to get Bardic Music without spellcasting (so not being a Bard), Seeker of the Song (Complete Arcane) is a prestige class wholly dedicated to supernatural-effects based on performances. It doesn't advance any spellcasting, but instead has music that creates special effects that can be used for offense or defense.


Honestly it's kind of what I would want the Bard class to be instead of spellcaster.

The class features are looking good and you have plenty of them. Really sad you have to wait to have 13 ranks in order to enter it... For some reasons I always thought this class improved spellcasting. Thank you for suggesting this one, now I know it doesn't.


Even limited to animal forms and without the healing you get by RAW the ability to switch form at-will with zero cost is too powerful for most games.
Not being able to take the ideal form for everything that pops up and the action cost of switching mid-fight are important balancing factors for WS.
And it's still one of the most powerful abilities in the game after 9th level casting.

You're essentially handing someone 20 levels of wildshape, the 5th level of warshaper and two feats for free, on top of whatever other levels he actually takes.

I guess you are right. But if you keep the class feature as is (Not taking MoMF or Warshaper...), and willing to only take a LA+1, you are probably stuck with on or two forms AND they are not going to improve like at all. Why would you want to do that? I have no idea. But the animal forms are not really overpowered by any means, right off the bat.
But yes, for example, even with a flying form, you can escape almost any encounter by just wildshaping as a free action then fly away for example. And I guess even with that it is pretty powerful for any spellcaster. Just take Natural Spell and boom, you now can be in bird form and cast spell all day long from basically level one.


Siren (Savage Species): You get lots of song-themed supernatural abilities and a decent Charisma bonus. You may either have to use a monster race or dip into totemist to qualify for the sonic attack.

Master of the Unseen Hand (Complete Warrior): You'd need to get Telekinesis from something like the Ghost template to make use of this PrC. Otherwise, it enhances Telekinesis greatly.

Tattooed Monk (Complete Warrior): 5 tattooes (Sp or Su) across 10 levels. It's a monk class, so that means you get all the optimization baggage that comes along that.

Spellfire Channeler (Magic of Faerun): Spellfire is a bit of its own system, and this class gives you plenty (8) Sp/Su abilities based on that theme.

Siren is cool yes and there was an Iron chef not so long ago on this one if I remember correctly. Might be good to see what you can do with that;

Master of the Unseen hand has always been fascinating and questionable. You probably need to be a spellcaster and have telekinesis to enter, then the class if Full BAB but only 1d4 hp and only improves your caster level and nothing else. I will have to look how to enter it without spellcasting. Ghost is interesting but 5 LA is pretty expensive. (More on that later)

Tattoed Monk is cool, not gonna lie. My only problem with it is... You have to play a monk. (Or you could play something else but you'd miss the monk abilities improvements. And I don't know if the class is worth enough to play as a non-monk)

And Spellfire Channeler... I like the concept but... Oh boy it seems impractical to play.


Does 3.5 have a version of Pathfinder's Horizon Walker (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/apg/horizon-walker/)? It's a neat little Ranger PrC that's easy to qualify for and surprisingly powerful. Even if not, it just kinda slots in backwards compatible with no issues as far as I know.


Yes, the Horizon Walker (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm) was a thing in 3.5. The abilities aren't labeled as Sp or Su though.

The Horizon Walker is cool and I wanted to play one for a long time. Then, I remembered you basically have to wait for ages to have your milestone (Dimension Door) and nothing really exciting before that. So if you can start at a level where you already have the ability, sure, why not. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother.


I've been loath to mention it since it's finicky (per the setting if you are a ghost you can only advance ghost classes, if you are alive again you can't use ghost feats, if you gain more ghost classes you move on so you have to get resurrected to avoid that) and setting specific, but there is the Ghostwalk Eidolon for completeness sake.

For a living outsider ghost template that can be applied to any humanoid if memory serves, it's the ghost equivalent of the a fighter, but their bonus feats are ghost feats that grant supernatural abilities. Like making stuff out of ectoplasm, touch attacks, possession, poltergeist stuff, etc.

Playing Danny Phantom the class would certainly be different.

To be honest I never dived into Ghostwalk. I have no idea if my DM is going to accept ghost pcs since it involve many, many things. (Being incorporeal is pretty huge at low level I believe)

----

For some reasons I have been fascinated by Monster Classes recently. A lot of people talked trash about all the classes from Savage Species, but some are really, really good if you do not go to level 20. Most Good Outsiders are dope, Ghaele is clearly overpowered until level 5. (Full BAB, 8+Skills, All good Saves, Martial Weapons, Cleric Spellcasting = to your HD, something like 5 or 6 domains (Even if they are not the best you still can choose spell from all of them) AND some SLAs with that. It is ridiculous.)

Sadly the most interesting ones for me are probably the worst. Playing as an Ogre Mage seems really fun then you look at its +7LA for basically nothing really interesting and you only have 5HD at ECL12. Sure you have regeneration, Invisibility and fly at will but what's the point if you are getting OS by everything at the second where you leave your invsibility?

The medusa looks cool too, you even have some cool medusa-specific weapon with reach... But then you remember that you don't have many features, you have to wait a certain time to unlock your gaze ability and the capstone is just Petrifying Gaze at will... Which, you are probably going to spam and pray for the enemy to fail its save and be turned to stone for ever. Which... Is fun for nobody. (And since I believe equipment is changed to stone with the bad guys, you are crippling your party by doing so. Or you can have a cleric with stone to flesh ready and kill the bad guy turned to stone with a failed save OR by gangbanging it right after it is turned back to flesh again...)

And plenty others I won't mention here.

And a the Waverider PrC is ridiculous. At CL6, you obtain a mount. You can choose from some really ****ty ones THEN you have one option... The elasmosaurus. I don't know how it was in 3.0 but in 3.5 if I am not mistaken it is a HUGE CR7 creature with a land speed and no mention that it needs to be underwater to survive. Even if it is slow and have only one attack, you have a CR7 creature at your command at level 6, with 15ft reach and 110+ hp.

EDIT: A level 7 Druid can have an Elasmosaurus too. It is gonna be a bit less godd but you still have a pretty high CR creature at your service. So Waverider's Elasmosaurus is not that good but it is still pretty good.

[Battleship789]

If you are looking for obscure jank, Blade of Orien is a 10 level full BAB Eberron prestige class from Dragonmarked that revolves around the Mark of Passage dragonmark's teleportation SLAs, improving the per day limitations, range, and action cost of the base SLAs and granting additional Sp abilities to spend the SLA uses on, culminating in a Shadow Pounce-esque ability (notably this works with ranged attacks, as opposed to similar abilities owned by Teflammar Shadowlord or Crinti Shadow Marauder.) It works reasonably well for an archer but it would also work for a melee character (I played an archer version from level 1 to 15ish, with Martial Classes 4/Dragonmark Heir 1/Blade of Orien 2/Dragonmark Heir 3/Blade of Orien 1+ as the build, taking a few dragonmark feats in between the archery feats to improve the Mark of Passage SLAs.) The main problem I found while playing the build is that you are basically a bog-standard martial character with some teleportation and flying utility, so in most combat rounds you end up full attacking. Hence, it might not be exactly what you are looking for.

As far as monster classes go, you could try to argue with your DM for similar LA values to those found in the LA Reassignment threads. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825) It would open up a much larger number of viable options than the base LA values, which in general are way too high.

[Rynjin]

The Horizon Walker is cool and I wanted to play one for a long time. Then, I remembered you basically have to wait for ages to have your milestone (Dimension Door) and nothing really exciting before that. So if you can start at a level where you already have the ability, sure, why not. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother.

I played a character going into Horizon Walker from 1 before and it was very good, but from what I remember the Pathfinder version of the Ranger is SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than a 3.5 Ranger baseline, and the Dimension Door has a lot more synergy as well, since I believe 3.5 lacks Dimensional Dervish (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-dervish/) as well (essentially Pounce++ for the cost of 3 Feats which are individually pretty solid).