Monk Dip on a Druid

[MadMusketeer]

While a lot of hay has been made about the benefits of a 1-3 level Barbarian dip on a Druid, I feel like the comparably good Monk dip has been left by the wayside. While you don't get Rage (so the Barbearian strategy won't work), your version of Unarmored Defence will be much more useful, letting you add your primary stat as a Druid to your AC (something which become immediately more valuable when you remember the harsh limits on the armor you can wear as a Druid, making wearing no armor at all an extremely viable choice). Also, given that using rage prevents you from concentrating on spells, if you wanna actually, you know, play a goddamn full caster while using your dip, Monk arguably gets you more mileage. This is because, although you (probably) won't be making many unarmed strikes while in Wild Shape, Monks are very dependent on class abilities, all of which you can use while in Wild Shape. Unarmored Movement? +10ft movement bear, baby. Ki abilities? Yup. Martial arts? Probably worse than just attacking, until you can get flying forms with flyby, at which point... you can make unarmed strikes as anything, significantly boosting the combat abilities of a utility Wild Shape, with substantial subsequent potential for shenanigans, with your Unarmored Defence giving you a decent AC to boot. Further, taking the Fighting Initiate feat for Unarmed Fighting (which now makes much more sense, as you aren't going to be taking Monk past 6th level (for Magic Attacks, Stunning Strike and Extra Attack - Monks get a lot of really important stuff around 5th level) at most if you're really dedicated) lets you get decent damage on those attacks in Wild Shape as well, and flying around punching multiple times per turn with flyby allowing you to get away unscathed is far from the worst thing to be doing while you maintain concentration on a spell. Also, just a quick note on Druid subclasses - while Circle of the Moon is obviously best in terms of Wild Shape potential, given that a Monk dip benefits lower-tier wild shapes even more than higher-tier ones, other Circles which make better use of your concentration (such as Shepherd or Land) could work as well.

So, given all this, I'm not really sure why nobody talks about Monk as a dip for Druid. It seems to me like you get an awful lot which synergizes with your existing Druid kit really well, and even some less obvious stuff which could still be used in a bunch of creative ways. Is there something I'm missing, or is there a reason why it's been so overlooked?

[animorte]

Unarmored Defense is actually one of my favorite class features of the Monk. I have paired Monk with all of the other Wisdom based classes at some point, because of that and really interesting subclass themes.

[MrStabby]

Just a few things to add.

Firstly, is wisdom actually the prime attribute of the druid? Or is it constitution? I would go so far as to say every good druid spell is a concentration spell and a lot of good druid spells don't need high DCs. Conjuration spells don't, heat metal can still work on a succesful save, spike growth and plant growth the same.

Barbarian gives constitution save proficiency, which is very nice to have and some of the features align well. For example, wildshape can give some great forms with very high con bonus which is ideal for getting decent AC. Rage provides a lot of resistance and wild shape boosts your daily HP pool - having a big pool effectively increased further by rage is nice.

Monk is good, but when you think about what you get for a given level of investment I think barbarian has it beaten.

[Keravath]

A 1 level dip in monk can work well for a druid. The biggest issue, as with all mutliclassing, is delaying the primary class abilities. However, for moon druids in particular, although it delays form acquisition by a level - especially elementals - the benefits can be useful. Unarmored defence can be an improvement in AC for many of the animal forms. In addition, for a moon druid, the unarmed strike can be used on most combat rounds for a bit of a damage boost from the wild shape forms (as long as the wild shaped druid doesn't have a better use for their bonus action).

I have a moon druid in one of my games who dipped one level in monk and so far it seems to be working pretty well for them.

The last consideration though is that dipping into any class is giving up the level 20 ability which for moon druids is especially powerful.

[animorte]

Just a few things to add.

Firstly, is wisdom actually the prime attribute of the druid? Or is it constitution? I would go so far as to say every good druid spell is a concentration spell and a lot of good druid spells don't need high DCs. Conjuration spells don't, heat metal can still work on a succesful save, spike growth and plant growth the same.

Barbarian gives constitution save proficiency, which is very nice to have and some of the features align well. For example, wildshape can give some great forms with very high con bonus which is ideal for getting decent AC. Rage provides a lot of resistance and wild shape boosts your daily HP pool - having a big pool effectively increased further by rage is nice.

Monk is good, but when you think about what you get for a given level of investment I think barbarian has it beaten.

I'm not particularly fond of how good this advice is. I've always preferred my B-rated Druid playstyle because I've never prioritized using Wild Shape into beasties for combat. This is why I've never cared very much for Moon Druid, even though I am aware of how strong it is. Again, great advice. I still prefer the Monk idea though. :smallwink:

[MrStabby]

I'm not particularly fond of how good this advice is. I've always preferred my B-rated Druid playstyle because I've never prioritized using Wild Shape into beasties for combat. This is why I've never cared very much for Moon Druid, even though I am aware of how strong it is. Again, great advice. I still prefer the Monk idea though. :smallwink:

I think I am the same - its just moon druid playstyle doesn't apeal to me so much. With just the PHB options I leaned moon, not that I thought it better, but more it felt you could do something more special and cool. With more recent druids that is much less of an issue as they bring more unique things themselves.

[MadMusketeer]

Just a few things to add.

Firstly, is wisdom actually the prime attribute of the druid? Or is it constitution? I would go so far as to say every good druid spell is a concentration spell and a lot of good druid spells don't need high DCs. Conjuration spells don't, heat metal can still work on a succesful save, spike growth and plant growth the same.

Barbarian gives constitution save proficiency, which is very nice to have and some of the features align well. For example, wildshape can give some great forms with very high con bonus which is ideal for getting decent AC. Rage provides a lot of resistance and wild shape boosts your daily HP pool - having a big pool effectively increased further by rage is nice.

Monk is good, but when you think about what you get for a given level of investment I think barbarian has it beaten.

While Constitution is undeniably important (especially for concentration saves) for a Druid, particularly as (as you correctly pointed out) most good Druid spells (at least in combat) require concentration, I don't think that necessarily makes it a more important stat for Druids than Wisdom. While Constitution would be especially important relative to Wisdom for a Druid intending to focus on Conjuration spells, this runs into a few problems, particularly from the perspective of a Barbarian multiclass. Firstly, a Conjuration-focused Druid is probably likely to go Circle of the Shepherd, making the Rage/Wild Shape combo less valuable. Secondly, Conjuration spells start coming in at level 5, relatively late for a build designed around them - taking Constitution as your primary (rather than secondary) stat at level 1 disadvantages you for the first 5 levels without really benefiting you - you could take a Constitution ASI, Resilient (CON), or Warcaster with your level 4 ASI, shoring up your CON saves for the time being without having an unnecessarily low value in your casting stat. Finally, unless you plan on using these spells every encounter, you will often (including during encounters you do use them) be forced to cast other (non-concentration) spells, most of which will rely on Wisdom. Although you should probably shore it up as quickly as possible, as on all casters, making CON your highest stat at level 1 is probably overkill, especially since CON-focused spells like Conjure Animals, at least of the sort worth building around, only come in starting around level 5. Furthermore, for concentration spells that do require a save, if your target(s) beat the save, your CON saves are irrelevant - you've already failed. And, of course, on the topic of CON save proficiency, unless you want to start Barbarian, that won't be relevant anyway. Further, giving up Wisdom saves in favor of Con, while maybe somewhat preferable, is by no means a slam dunk - although losing concentration (which can often be prevented through smart positioning or use of Wild Shapes) undeniably sucks, Wisdom saves are almost invariably save-or-suck, making WIS save proficiency fairly valuable too.

Something that I didn't think of in my original post was multiclassing prerequisites. If you want to multiclass into or out of Barbarian, you need at least a 13 in Strength, an obvious Druid dump stat that doesn't give you anything. By contrast, although Monk requires score of 13 in both Wisdom and Dexterity, those are both pretty pretty useful stats for a Druid - Wisdom for obvious reasons, Dexterity for AC (given that you can't wear metal armors).

In terms of Barbarian's other features, they don't generally play nice with the Druid's kit - many of them either block spellcasting and concentration entirely (Rage), or put you at greater risk from attacks (Reckless Attack), leading to you losing your spells. The popular Barbearian concept you describe does make you a hell of a sponge, but seeing as you don't really have any particularly good tanking abilities (unless you go Ancestral Guardian, and even then it's not amazing), your damage is kinda lackluster, and you can't also maintain concentration on a spell, it's kinda easy for enemies to just ignore you and attack someone else. While I'm sure it's useful for lower-level Moon Druids, I'm not really convinced it's worth it unless you want it specifically for your build. In terms of Wild Shape CON scores and AC, Monk has Barbarian beat - you use your own Wisdom score when in Wild Shape, after all, and this frees you up to choose more around Dex scores, rather than looking for creatures with high Dex and Con (or, of course, you could just pick the most useful creature and not worry about it too much, a luxury you don't have with a Barbarian multiclass).

Granted, these benefits together probably edge out a 1 level Monk dip, although for non-Moon Druids it's probably more tenuous (possibly more likely to to take Wisdom straight to 20, no use for Rage). However, particularly given that the benefits you get from Barbarian (CON saves and Rage) kinda run counter to each other, I think Monk is clearly the better dip after this (unless you wanna take Barbarian to 3 to get Aspect of the Bear). It has more and better features after this, all of which (to varying degrees) work with, rather than against, your existing Druid kit.

[animorte]

Something that I didn't think of in my original post was multiclassing prerequisites. If you want to multiclass into or out of Barbarian, you need at least a 13 in Strength, an obvious Druid dump stat that doesn't give you anything. By contrast, although Monk requires score of 13 in both Wisdom and Dexterity, those are both pretty pretty useful stats for a Druid - Wisdom for obvious reasons, Dexterity for AC (given that you can't wear metal armors).

This is something else I didn't directly think of even though I value Dexterity far above every other stat. Which supports my decision further.

[follacchioso]

A monk dip on a moon druid has some benefits, but I think overall it is not worth it.

The Druid's capstone is just too good to be missed, especially on a Moon Druid. Even if your character is playing at low levels, and your game is never going to get to lv20, it's just too painful to renounce it. Your moon druid will dream of becoming an Archdruid, one day. Their best aspirations in life will be to be able to cast spells while in wildshape, and wildshape every turn just because they can. By dipping into Monk, you deny your character their very own dream. Don't do that.

One Monk level gives you better AC in your wildshape, which is good. But nothing else from that. Your spell and wildshape progression will be delayed, and you will never be an Archdruid. It's just too painful.

Two Monk levels get you a better speed, and two points of ki. This is slightly more useful, but now your spell progression is two levels behind. You'll never get two 6th and 7th level slots.

Five monk levels get you Stunning Strike. But what is the cost? You'll be seriously delayed in Wildshapes and spellcasting, and you will never be able to cast Shapechange, Foresight, and those nice lv9 spells.

If the Wildshape attacks counted as unarmed weapons, it would have been a different thing. But unfortunately, it's a missed opportunity...

[RogueJK]

I previously played a Ghostwise Halfling Monk 1/Moon Druid X several years ago to good effect, going from Level 3 to 13ish in a campaign.

The better AC in Wild Shape was noticeable. But it more importantly also allowed me to play the character as a "feral child", literally raised by animals. He wore no armor, and used no weapons. He was just a nearly-naked feral halfling who rarely spoke, with little more than a satchel with some basic personal effects, who attacked with his bare hands/teeth (Unarmed Strike+Martial Arts) or by hurling fire (Produce Flame) on the rare occasion when he was not in Wild Shape form.

I wouldn't necessarily say it was super-optimized, being a level behind in spells and wild shape forms. (That delay was especially noticeably in later Tier 2, when even a single-classed Moon Druid has a lull in their power curve just before their Elemental forms come online.) But it was as effective as any other character, and enabled a fun play style.

[Catullus64]

For me, one of the main determinants of the value of any given Druid/X multiclass is how the DM rules on the ability of animal forms to use various class features. The key phrase is that you can use any class or race feature of which your new form is "physically capable." Lot of room there for interpretation.

There are plenty of animal shapes, usually the ones with a single attack, where making Unarmed Strikes rather than natural weapon attacks isn't a bad idea, if your DM rules that using Martial Arts is even possible. So it's possible for the value of the dip to be even more valuable than what the OP indicated. The same conditional consideration applies to features like Unarmored Movement.

I, as a DM, would absolutely call these fair game. I, however, was also the DM who allowed a druid wildshaped into an Ape to use human weapons according to the character's class proficiencies, with according allowance for Fighting Style and Sneak Attack. In other words, I'm a more awesome DM than most.

I would also like to speak to the virtues of the 2-level Paladin dip for the Druid. The chief woe of a wildshape-focused Druid, I find, is wildly uneven damage scaling across levels. Divine Smite helps raise up both the peaks and the valleys of that damage, and as primary spellcaster you'll have both more slots for smiting than your average Paladin, and less to do with them than your average caster. Lay on Hands provides a dash of extra pick-up healing which can be used in-form. Figuring out what to do with your Fighting Style is a little difficult; you can take Blessed Warrior for utility cantrips, perhaps. Blind Fighting may be valuable based on how your DM reads the priority between the clauses of Wildshape dealing with special senses vs. class features. Otherwise, just take Defense for when you're out of form. Yes, the ability requirements for this multiclass are dire, but give it some consideration the next time you roll up some generous stats.

[MrStabby]

For me, one of the main determinants of the value of any given Druid/X multiclass is how the DM rules on the ability of animal forms to use various class features. The key phrase is that you can use any class or race feature of which your new form is "physically capable." Lot of room there for interpretation.

There are plenty of animal shapes, usually the ones with a single attack, where making Unarmed Strikes rather than natural weapon attacks isn't a bad idea, if your DM rules that using Martial Arts is even possible. So it's possible for the value of the dip to be even more valuable than what the OP indicated. The same conditional consideration applies to features like Unarmored Movement.

I, as a DM, would absolutely call these fair game. I, however, was also the DM who allowed a druid wildshaped into an Ape to use human weapons according to the character's class proficiencies, with according allowance for Fighting Style and Sneak Attack. In other words, I'm a more awesome DM than most.

I would also like to speak to the virtues of the 2-level Paladin dip for the Druid. The chief woe of a wildshape-focused Druid, I find, is wildly uneven damage scaling across levels. Divine Smite helps raise up both the peaks and the valleys of that damage, and as primary spellcaster you'll have both more slots for smiting than your average Paladin, and less to do with them than your average caster. Lay on Hands provides a dash of extra pick-up healing which can be used in-form. Figuring out what to do with your Fighting Style is a little difficult; you can take Blessed Warrior for utility cantrips, perhaps. Blind Fighting may be valuable based on how your DM reads the priority between the clauses of Wildshape dealing with special senses vs. class features. Otherwise, just take Defense for when you're out of form. Yes, the ability requirements for this multiclass are dire, but give it some consideration the next time you roll up some generous stats.

I don't know if its just me, but I think Blindfighting to be about being able to fight well whilst not seeing your enemies, rather than being another way to see enemies. Your senses are replaced, but your ability to make fighitng decisions on those sensory inputs isn't.

And yeah, paladin druids are pretty cool. I don' think the MC requirements are that bad though. You are more focussed on wildshape than spellcasting so don't need great wisdom. You can drop a bit of Con as that is replaced by wildshape and you probably are not taking paladin to any level where you need charisma either. Yeah, you want a lot of 13s, but it isn't that hard.

[Leon]

Monk and both Cleric and Druid have always gone well together. Its less important in this edition where the armour problem is only a flavour lock for druids but its still a good option if you want to be less restricted by any armour anyway.

[KorvinStarmast]

But it was as effective as any other character, and enabled a fun play style. My Monk 1 / Druid 10 Moon Circle was quite effective and fun. Sorry we didn't get to go further.

Monk and both Cleric and Druid have always gone well together. My nephew's monk 1 / cleric 8 is solid in a group that I DM for. :smallsmile:

[sithlordnergal]

So, I'm not sure how useful a Monk dip would be on a Druid. Now, it does depend on the Subclass of course. I feel like Monk is far better for something like a Wildfire or Shepard Druid then it is a Moon or Spore Druid, but even then I'm not sure how good it is. By dipping 2 levels into Monk, you get:


Unarmored Defense: This seems like a shoo-in for a great ability, it lets you add your Wisdom and Dexterity to your AC. However, regular armor and a 14 Dexterity can net you an equivalent AC to what you'd get via Unarmored Defense. Instead of spending your ASIs on Dexterity to boost your AC, you can spend them on Feats. It won't even help much when Wild Shaped, since most Beasts have terrible Dex scores. Additionally, taking the level of Monk basically removes your ability to wear armor, unless you want a dead level in your dip. This means no magical armor or shields. That part is DM dependent, but if your DM likes handing out strong magical equipment, its something to consider

Martial Arts: This is pretty neat, it gives you a d4 Unarmed Strike, and you can make one attack as a Bonus Action for free when you take the Attack action. Again, seems like a great ability on paper...but you're a full caster. Chances are you're not using the Attack Action in combat, you're casting a spell. You can't even make use of it while Wild Shaped, since the Bonus Action attack requires you to make an Unarmed Strike or use a Monk Weapon first, and the Natural Weapons you get while Wild Shaped don't count as either of those. Finally, because this is only a dip, your Unarmed Strikes will never become Magical, meaning they lose effectiveness once you run into things Resistant or Immune to non-magical attacks.

Ki: Another ability that's really handy on paper, but is less so in practice. You gain Step of the Wind, Patient Defense, and Flurry of Blows. All of these are great abilities, but they require you to spend Ki Points to use them. Since you only two Ki Points, these abilities are actually quite limited.

Unarmored Movement: This is probably the best ability of the bunch. It gives you +10 to your speed, which is great! But it can be emulated by Mobile, and Mobile has the benefit of letting you ignore Difficult Terrain when you Dash, and prevents Attacks of Opportunity on you if you make a melee attack against a creature.


All in all, I find that the Monk and Druid has decent synergy on paper, but in practice they tend to fall short because the benefits Druids gain can be emulated via feats or armor, or require more then just a dip in Monk to make heavy use of.

[Nefariis]

So, I'm not sure how useful a Monk dip would be on a Druid. Now, it does depend on the Subclass of course. I feel like Monk is far better for something like a Wildfire or Shepard Druid then it is a Moon or Spore Druid, but even then I'm not sure how good it is. By dipping 2 levels into Monk, you get:


Unarmored Defense: This seems like a shoo-in for a great ability, it lets you add your Wisdom and Dexterity to your AC. However, regular armor and a 14 Dexterity can net you an equivalent AC to what you'd get via Unarmored Defense. Instead of spending your ASIs on Dexterity to boost your AC, you can spend them on Feats. It won't even help much when Wild Shaped, since most Beasts have terrible Dex scores. Additionally, taking the level of Monk basically removes your ability to wear armor, unless you want a dead level in your dip. This means no magical armor or shields. That part is DM dependent, but if your DM likes handing out strong magical equipment, its something to consider

Martial Arts: This is pretty neat, it gives you a d4 Unarmed Strike, and you can make one attack as a Bonus Action for free when you take the Attack action. Again, seems like a great ability on paper...but you're a full caster. Chances are you're not using the Attack Action in combat, you're casting a spell. You can't even make use of it while Wild Shaped, since the Bonus Action attack requires you to make an Unarmed Strike or use a Monk Weapon first, and the Natural Weapons you get while Wild Shaped don't count as either of those. Finally, because this is only a dip, your Unarmed Strikes will never become Magical, meaning they lose effectiveness once you run into things Resistant or Immune to non-magical attacks.

Ki: Another ability that's really handy on paper, but is less so in practice. You gain Step of the Wind, Patient Defense, and Flurry of Blows. All of these are great abilities, but they require you to spend Ki Points to use them. Since you only two Ki Points, these abilities are actually quite limited.

Unarmored Movement: This is probably the best ability of the bunch. It gives you +10 to your speed, which is great! But it can be emulated by Mobile, and Mobile has the benefit of letting you ignore Difficult Terrain when you Dash, and prevents Attacks of Opportunity on you if you make a melee attack against a creature.


All in all, I find that the Monk and Druid has decent synergy on paper, but in practice they tend to fall short because the benefits Druids gain can be emulated via feats or armor, or require more then just a dip in Monk to make heavy use of.


I somewhat disagree with a bit of this, but I think some of the parts that I disagree with are DM dependent.

I played a Monk 2 / Moon Druid X to level 10 and I've played a Moon Druid 2 / Monk X to level 8 - and I thought there were both really fun to play. Having a 17 AC Dire Wolf with 60ft of speed and still nearly a full caster is a blast, however you slice it.

The part that is DM dependent is if natural attacks can count towards martial arts - It seems like most DMs on GITP allow it, I know I allow it, and my DM allowed it as well. An extra 1d4+dex at the cost of a bonus action wont break anything.

[MadMusketeer]

Unarmored Defense: This seems like a shoo-in for a great ability, it lets you add your Wisdom and Dexterity to your AC. However, regular armor and a 14 Dexterity can net you an equivalent AC to what you'd get via Unarmored Defense. Instead of spending your ASIs on Dexterity to boost your AC, you can spend them on Feats. It won't even help much when Wild Shaped, since most Beasts have terrible Dex scores. Additionally, taking the level of Monk basically removes your ability to wear armor, unless you want a dead level in your dip. This means no magical armor or shields. That part is DM dependent, but if your DM likes handing out strong magical equipment, its something to consider

Just so we're clear, as a Druid there are three types of armor you're allowed to wear. There's hide armor, which is just studded leather (which you can't wear) but a bit worse (because it caps the Dex bonus and has the same base), leather armor, which is probably fine IF you intend to boost Dex, or there's padded armor, which is just leather armor but worse (the only potential benefit I can see is it being more unobtrusive, an advantage dashed by the disadvantage on stealth). At most, with hide armor and a 14 in Dex, you're gonna have an AC of 14. If you wanna wear a shield, that goes up to 16, but to me it kinda feels like wearing a shield on a wizard - unless you're going for a more swordmage-y sort of thing (something you can't even really do on Druid), it doesn't really fit the aesthetic or the fantasy of the class. Without that, an AC of 14 is something you might be able to get away with at lower levels, but it's going to hurt more and more as you level up. If you go with the Monk druid, with 14 Dex and 16 Wis, you have an AC of 15, which is... slightly worse than the shield option, but what self-respecting Druid is going to leave a 16 in their casting stat? When your Wisdom score hits 20, you have an AC of 17, with a clear path to improving it through Dex buffs or items such as the Bracers of Defence. Unless you're really holding out for like a +3 hide armor or something (which kinda goes against the aesthetic of magic armor to begin with), the Monk dip clearly gives you the better AC. Whether its worth the dip is another question entirely, but the ability clearly gives you the benefit you're taking it for.

Also, plenty of good forms (such as Giant Spiders and most of the flying forms) have good Dex. Even if most don't, most Beasts having terrible Dex scores is kinda half the reason this is a useful ability - because of those terrible Dex scores, most Beasts have terrible AC already. Unarmored Defence allows you to add your Wisdom score, which you retain while in Wild Shape, to your Beast forms' AC, giving you a substantially higher AC. The fact that Beasts have terrible Dex doesn't really take away from it - they either already use their garbage Dex for AC, or they use some sort of piddly natural armor which isn't much better (giving them an AC of 11 or 12 at best). Being able to add your Wisdom score is an unambiguous benefit, made even more so by the already low AC's of the Beasts in question.


Martial Arts: This is pretty neat, it gives you a d4 Unarmed Strike, and you can make one attack as a Bonus Action for free when you take the Attack action. Again, seems like a great ability on paper...but you're a full caster. Chances are you're not using the Attack Action in combat, you're casting a spell. You can't even make use of it while Wild Shaped, since the Bonus Action attack requires you to make an Unarmed Strike or use a Monk Weapon first, and the Natural Weapons you get while Wild Shaped don't count as either of those. Finally, because this is only a dip, your Unarmed Strikes will never become Magical, meaning they lose effectiveness once you run into things Resistant or Immune to non-magical attacks.

I want to make it clear that I wasn't suggesting Natural Weapons should count as Unarmed Strikes - I don't think it breaks anything, so if you (or your DM) want to allow it it'd probably be fine, but I don't think that by RAW there's any reason to think that. What I was suggesting was that there's no reason to believe that you can't use your Unarmed Strikes as normal while in Wild Shape, giving you a potentially useful damage option on utility forms - not really useful in combat, of course, but I think there's a variety of (admittedly kinda niche) scenarios - such as assassinations, or covertly taking out guards one at a time to soften up an enemy camp/compound/fortress/etc before you attack - in which Martial Arts Rat is a useful form. Also, it's just kinda cool.

This also sort of invalidates the Magical Weapons point - if it's already not going to be that useful in combat, why would you need it to count as a magical weapon? You're already not gonna be using it against anything that would resist it, so what's the problem? Also, a little sidenote I hadn't thought of before for lower levels - if you're using Shillelagh, both of the weapon options count as Monk weapons, so you can make an Unarmed Strike as a bonus action after you attack with your quarterstaff.


Ki: Another ability that's really handy on paper, but is less so in practice. You gain Step of the Wind, Patient Defense, and Flurry of Blows. All of these are great abilities, but they require you to spend Ki Points to use them. Since you only two Ki Points, these abilities are actually quite limited.

This I do agree with - while these abilities are potentially useful in a pinch (particularly Step of the Wind), your limited Ki points prevent them from being that valuable. However, if you're taking this dip, you probably already know that - these are a neat little ribbon, not the reason you're taking the dip, and if you take that into consideration, the benefits are pretty decent for what they are


Unarmored Movement: This is probably the best ability of the bunch. It gives you +10 to your speed, which is great! But it can be emulated by Mobile, and Mobile has the benefit of letting you ignore Difficult Terrain when you Dash, and prevents Attacks of Opportunity on you if you make a melee attack against a creature.

While I agree that if you were only dipping Monk for this ability, you would probably be better served by the Mobile feat, as an additional bonus to a bunch of already pretty useful abilities I think it really shines. Also, if you wanted to you could use both this and the mobile feat - the only thing better than a 17 AC Dire Wolf with 60ft of movement is a 17 AC Dire Wolf with 70ft of movement :smallcool:

[Ogun]

I like unarmed casters but not using a shield because of esthetic reasons, well you deserve all the damage you take.
Being able to use a sheild along with your unarmored defense is a feature that a barbarian brings to the table.
Both dips bother me because I really just want the unarmored defense.

[animorte]

I like unarmed casters but not using a shield because of esthetic reasons, well you deserve all the damage you take.
Being able to use a sheild along with your unarmored defense is a feature that a barbarian brings to the table.
Both dips bother me because I really just want the unarmored defense.

I have folded features in and out of various classes just to make room for it. It's literally the only reason I consider Barbarian dips and usually pair that with Sentinel, Shield Master, Duelist, War Caster (if relevant). Just whichever one or two of those I might be focusing toward.

[sithlordnergal]

Just so we're clear, as a Druid there are three types of armor you're allowed to wear. There's hide armor, which is just studded leather (which you can't wear) but a bit worse (because it caps the Dex bonus and has the same base), leather armor, which is probably fine IF you intend to boost Dex, or there's padded armor, which is just leather armor but worse (the only potential benefit I can see is it being more unobtrusive, an advantage dashed by the disadvantage on stealth). At most, with hide armor and a 14 in Dex, you're gonna have an AC of 14. If you wanna wear a shield, that goes up to 16, but to me it kinda feels like wearing a shield on a wizard - unless you're going for a more swordmage-y sort of thing (something you can't even really do on Druid), it doesn't really fit the aesthetic or the fantasy of the class. Without that, an AC of 14 is something you might be able to get away with at lower levels, but it's going to hurt more and more as you level up. If you go with the Monk druid, with 14 Dex and 16 Wis, you have an AC of 15, which is... slightly worse than the shield option, but what self-respecting Druid is going to leave a 16 in their casting stat? When your Wisdom score hits 20, you have an AC of 17, with a clear path to improving it through Dex buffs or items such as the Bracers of Defence. Unless you're really holding out for like a +3 hide armor or something (which kinda goes against the aesthetic of magic armor to begin with), the Monk dip clearly gives you the better AC. Whether its worth the dip is another question entirely, but the ability clearly gives you the benefit you're taking it for.


Eh? Druids can wear Studded Leather. It even suggests Studded Leather as a type of armor Druids wear within the 2016 Rule Answers in March. Quote ""A druid typically wears leather, studded leather, or hide armor, and if a druid comes across scale mail made of a material other than metal, the druid might wear it." That said, even if you just use Hide, that's still 16 AC when you strap on a Shield. While you may not feel they fit the aesthetic, its really no different than a Cleric using a Shield. Less "Swordmage" and more "Warrior/Protector of Nature". And lets be honest, just because it doesn't fit your aesthetic, doesn't mean Druid's don't get to have it. This is just a choice you're making to lower your AC.

Now, I will fully admit that Unarmored Defense gives you more AC in the late game. 20 Dex and 20 Wis gives you a 20 AC, where as the best you'll get from non-magical armor is 19 AC if the DM gives you non-metal Half-Plate and a Shield. But there's the rub, you only get that late game, after 4 ASIs, which you'd only get at level 17 thanks to the Monk level. Heck, Unarmored Defense is strictly worse than or equal to Hide+Shield with a 14 Dex until level 9, and only if you max out your Wisdom at level 8 instead of leaving it at 18 and snagging a Feat. And heck, you don't necessarily have to be stuck with Hide or Studded Leather, most DMs are willing to let you make Scale Mail out of non-metal material if you go on a monster hunting quest.

As for magic armor, you have so much more than just +3 Hide. Dragon Scale Armor is specifically made out of Dragon Scales, so its not made out of metal, and is +1 Scale Mail with a damage Resistance, advantage on saves vs Frightening Presence and Dragon Breath Weapons, and you can sense the direction of Dragons within 30 miles of you. And that's just Very Rare armor. Heck, if you go into the modules, I can name a few non-metal armors. You have Half Plate made of Mushrooms, Plate Armor made out of Scorpion chitin, +2 Plate Armor made of stone. Chances are good you can find non-metal magical armor somewhere, unless your DM is specifically trying to avoid giving you any armor.

Finally, feats. Now, I fully expect Druids to max out their Wisdom, that's just standard procedure for full casters. No, the issue with spending ASIs comes up when you have to spend them on Dexterity instead of Feats. Now, you can always go with fewer Feats, but there's a lot that a Druid would find handy. Resilient Constitution or War Caster for those Concentration saves, Mobile to avoid Attacks of Opportunity and a boost to Speed, Lucky, Fey Touched, Alert, Lucky, there's a lot of really good Feats you have to give up in order to get that high AC from Unarmored Defense. Its one of the small issues with Monks, they don't really get to take many Feats cause you wanna max out your Dexterity and Wisdom.



Also, plenty of good forms (such as Giant Spiders and most of the flying forms) have good Dex. Even if most don't, most Beasts having terrible Dex scores is kinda half the reason this is a useful ability - because of those terrible Dex scores, most Beasts have terrible AC already. Unarmored Defence allows you to add your Wisdom score, which you retain while in Wild Shape, to your Beast forms' AC, giving you a substantially higher AC. The fact that Beasts have terrible Dex doesn't really take away from it - they either already use their garbage Dex for AC, or they use some sort of piddly natural armor which isn't much better (giving them an AC of 11 or 12 at best). Being able to add your Wisdom score is an unambiguous benefit, made even more so by the already low AC's of the Beasts in question.


While there are a few good forms with decent Dex, the Giant Spider is absolutely one of them, I'd still say a majority of them really don't. And while adding your Wisdom can add a nice buff to their AC, you'll typically end up with 15 to 16 AC, which still isn't that great, with the very rare 18 AC. Most Beasts tank more with their HP instead of their AC anyway, and have high HP to compensate for their low AC. Its why Barbarian/Moon Druids are so much more common, cause you effectively double your Wild Shape's HP. Especially if you're a Bear Totem/Moon Druid



I want to make it clear that I wasn't suggesting Natural Weapons should count as Unarmed Strikes - I don't think it breaks anything, so if you (or your DM) want to allow it it'd probably be fine, but I don't think that by RAW there's any reason to think that. What I was suggesting was that there's no reason to believe that you can't use your Unarmed Strikes as normal while in Wild Shape, giving you a potentially useful damage option on utility forms - not really useful in combat, of course, but I think there's a variety of (admittedly kinda niche) scenarios - such as assassinations, or covertly taking out guards one at a time to soften up an enemy camp/compound/fortress/etc before you attack - in which Martial Arts Rat is a useful form. Also, it's just kinda cool.

This also sort of invalidates the Magical Weapons point - if it's already not going to be that useful in combat, why would you need it to count as a magical weapon? You're already not gonna be using it against anything that would resist it, so what's the problem? Also, a little sidenote I hadn't thought of before for lower levels - if you're using Shillelagh, both of the weapon options count as Monk weapons, so you can make an Unarmed Strike as a bonus action after you attack with your quarterstaff.


Oh I know you weren't suggesting that. I was just pointing out that Natural Weapons don't count as Unarmed Strikes, so you don't actually get to make that Bonus Action attack from Martial Arts. If it did count, then Martial Arts would be worth a lot more. Now, you can use Martial Arts while Wild Shaped, fully agree there, and it is kinda funny to picture a Spider or Rat running up and kicking someone for 1d4 damage two times. But...I can't imagine that's going to happen that often. Even when you're not a Moon Druid, those utility forms typically aren't going to see much combat use, if only because they lack the HP to stick around.

As for the non-magical bit, less of a deal breaker since you're not going to use Martial Arts anyway, and more just there as a small strike against it. Given you won't be using it often, it won't be a big deal, but when it comes up, you'll wish your fists were magic. You are right about the Shillelagh synergy though, which is a plus for Martial Arts.



This I do agree with - while these abilities are potentially useful in a pinch (particularly Step of the Wind), your limited Ki points prevent them from being that valuable. However, if you're taking this dip, you probably already know that - these are a neat little ribbon, not the reason you're taking the dip, and if you take that into consideration, the benefits are pretty decent for what they are


Yeah, the benefits are really, really good, but the cost is to prohibitive. If there was a Feat to give you two extra Ki points they'd be more worthwhile, but as it is you just don't have enough Ki to make good use of them. Still handy to have though.




While I agree that if you were only dipping Monk for this ability, you would probably be better served by the Mobile feat, as an additional bonus to a bunch of already pretty useful abilities I think it really shines. Also, if you wanted to you could use both this and the mobile feat - the only thing better than a 17 AC Dire Wolf with 60ft of movement is a 17 AC Dire Wolf with 70ft of movement :smallcool:

See, I just don't think the other abilities are that useful. You don't have enough Ki to really use its things, your Martial Arts will be to weak to be all that handy, and your base AC is handled by armor, a shield, and 14 Dex, while Beasts tank by having higher than average HP for their CR.


EDIT: Now, I can see why you would get a lot of use from Unarmored Defense if you choose not to use shields as a Druid, and if that's your preferred asthetic then make use of Unarmored Defense. But most Druids are going to use a shield, which makes the ability far less useful for a majority of Druids. Hence why you don't see it talked about very often.