Maille (was Armorcrafting)

[Skjaldbakka]

I was just wondering if anyone on these forums does much of the above. I'm looking for some advice on making a mail shirt. I'll be buying rings from Ringlord, but have no concept on how many rings to buy per shirt.

Any advice for a novice would be appreciated as well.

[13_CBS]

You'll find better crafters than I, but what kind of maille are you planning to get? Probably butted, right?

As for rings, it will depend entirely on how large you want to make the shirt and how big the rings are. Usually, I would estimate that there are about...10000 rings in a byrnie (maille t-shirt). Obviously, there are more in a full suit.

Advice on making...I'm a total novice, but I find it easier if you set up a loom. Think of maille as a kind of metal cloth, with each ring being a thread. You'll need a loom ( a simple affair; just a straight horizontal rod strong enough to hold up your suit while thin enough to slip between your rings) and two needlenose pliers, preferably ones without teeth (the teeth can leave marks on your metal).

What are you making this for?

[BizzaroStormy]

Don't kniow much about making one, but you can get one on Ebay for around $50

[Skjaldbakka]

Yes, and I get a shirt of mail from a reputable online merchant for ~$150. The idea is to make it myself. I want to feel that special sense of pride that comes from wearing my own suit of mail to an event.

I am making this for NERO (www.nerolarp.com)

I'm hoping to be able to sell the odd suit now and then, to help support my NERO habit. That and turning in a suit of mail is worth a great deal of goblin points (provided it isn't a pile of rubbish).

Also, definitely butted mail. I've looked at welded mail, but I don't see how it is worth the extra effort involved. Maybe if I were making it for SCA combat.

[13_CBS]

LARPing, eh? Interesting...

How much are the rings? You can make your own VERY cheaply if you have the tools (i.e. a power drill, some metal wire, and some crushed fingers...).

Also, how soon do you need this done? Maille shirts take quite a while to make. 1 byrnie takes about...2 months? to make, assuming that you put in something like 1 or two hours a day and you've got quick hands.

[reorith]

oh man i had a maille phase once
hormone therapy cleared it up
good luck with your endeavor

[Skjaldbakka]

I'll have to look up the ring cost, but I'm really not interested in making the rings myself, at least not for my first suit. I don't really have a time-table for the mail, either. I'll probably want to get at least two shirts done in time for the next fall event. (1 for me, 1 to donate for goblins).

How complicated is it to make the sleeves/space for the head? Looking at information on line, I'm pretty confident in my ability to make a sheet or a tube of mail, but I'm not so sure of my ability to make sleeves.

EDIt- Its gonna cost me about $90 to buy 10,000 rings of galvanized steel.

[13_CBS]

Eh heh heh...:smallredface: my dabblings have only gotten me to making a vaguely vest shaped sheet. I'm still trying to figure out how to make the parts for the armpits, etc...

I would imagine that it would be tricky. You mentioned head protection...how much is this suit going to cover? Something like this?

http://www.maileofthedreamseeker.com/designs/clothing/Hauberk&Coif.jpg

I suppose if you closely follow the instructions online you'll be fine. Try not to mess up, though, it's a bit of a pain to get back on track if you misplace a link or something.

Even if you order the rings, I think you'll still need a loom and two pliers.

[Skjaldbakka]

I didn't mean head protection, I meant a hole to put your head through.

What do you use for a loom? It doesn't sound like something a straightened out coathanger can accomplish.

[13_CBS]

Ah! That should be easier, then.

I think there was this one template/pattern that people found to be handy...it kinda looked like a big apron. I'll try to look for it.

[reorith]

i found this (http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=6844) on the website that got me started.


I didn't mean head protection, I meant a hole to put your head through.

What do you use for a loom? It doesn't sound like something a straightened out coathanger can accomplish.

i made mine from scrap wood and a couple of dowels.
oops almost forgot to add some white text

[13_CBS]

Well, here's something:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.barker/farisles/guilds/armour/mail.htm

Check near the end, under the "Hauberk" section.

As for the loom, you COULD use a straightened coat hanger, but:

1) It's annoying to get the maille on and off, especially once you're well into the project and the stuff is getting big/heavy, and
2) Where are you going to hang the thing? Part of the reason for the loom is so that the maille will be elevated to a spot so that you won't have to keel over to work on it.

I happened to have this nifty clothes hanging thing that works well as a crude loom. I'd imagine you can build a very simply one out of three small 2x4 boards and a metal dowel rod.

[Skjaldbakka]

Well, this certainly establishes my theory of "high forum traffic > specialized forum". I haven't got any response yet from the NERO forum, but my immediate concern was answered very quickly (how many rings will I need).

[JT]

You might want to check out http://www.armourarchive.org too.
(shameless plug)

[Skjaldbakka]

I've actually stumbled across that before. Now I have a readily available link.

[13_CBS]

Eh...armour archives is a handy place for serious, in depth armour reproduction, but is ill-suited for skjald's purposes. For example, he's probably not going to be making riveted maille, so almost all of AA's pages on maille will be useless to him.

Edit: 90 bucks for all those rings, eh? I'm still thinking that you should make your own... :smallwink: (Seriously, a good spool of wire costs 5 bucks at the hardware store, and if you already have a drill and a dowel rod (metal ones are 3 bucks at most), you can make your own rings for very low prices).

[Skjaldbakka]

So . . . how do you make rings? I don't have a good concept.

[13_CBS]

Here's what I did:

1) Drill a hole into your dowel rod near one of the ends with, well, a drill. I used wood, while others use metal rods.
2) Take out the drill bit in your power drill (this is if you're using a power drill to make your rings), insert the rod in its place as though you were trying to use the dowel rod as a drill bit. The end with the hole should be closer to the drill.

So it should look like this:

Dowel rod --> --------------------------------------Hole---Drill

3) Insert one end of your wire into the hole and loosely wrap it around the rod so that the wire is firmly secured in the rod. Don't do it too tightly, though, or your wire won't come off the rod when you're done.

4) Turn on the power drill to a VERY low setting, and as the rod turns bend the wire around it with your thumb. Try not to get your fingers stuck in there...

5) When finished, remove the wire end that's in the hole in your rod and slide off the now coiled spool.

If you don't have a power drill capable of this, try this:

http://realbeer.com/jjpalmer/FIG-1.GIF

This is a mandrel, a manual wire-coiling device. You'll have to make it yourself, unfortunately...

The rest of this article should show you how to use a mandrel to make rings. (http://realbeer.com/jjpalmer/HowtoChain.html)

If this is impractical for you, then you should probably stick with the premade, ordered rings.

[Skjaldbakka]

The more I do myself, the more of that sense of pride I will have in the completed project. Also, the cost is reduced dramatically.

[13_CBS]

In that case, places like Home Depot should sell spools of wire in the hardware section, and metal dowel rods right around the same aisle. Wire cutters are, of course, necessary, but I'm sure you already have a set of those.

Despite any amount of advice folks can give you, though, keep this in mind: much of the initial work will be trial and error. You can follow the guidelines, but it'll be ultimately up to you to set yourself in a maille making groove. It'll take an hour or two and having an assistant will definitely help (especially when making rings with the power drill). But above all, have fun. :smallbiggrin:

[Morrandir]

Plus, if you screw up one set, but it's still serviceable, I've heard goblins aren't exactly master craftsmen... :smallbiggrin:

Another thing to look into: What kind of padding are you using for wearing under the maille? Chain chafes like none other, and it does get uncomfortable pretty fast if it has much weight.

[Goblin Music]

My dad i trying to craft a chain-mail shirt. keep in mind that chain-mail takes time and they are heavy

@^ Hey we resent that:smallbiggrin:

[Maelstrom]

LOL -- if you are buying the rings from Jon (TheRingLord.com),why not sign up on the forum there -- I've been a member there for about 5 years. There's hundreds of mailers on there to give you plenty of advice, both in the construction of your hauberk, to making rings, if you so choose, though I recommend against it if this is your first project. Making your own rings for a shirt may very well turn you against the project.

Anyways, again, not to put down anyone here, but The Ring Lord/ (http://www.theringlord.org/forum/) forums will really get you the expertise you need.

[Skjaldbakka]

Honestly, it hadn't occured to me to join another forum. I guess that oughta be a no-brainer, huh?

[Alebeard_Thunderax]

I agree with Maelstrom that a shirt is not the way to go for a first project. But, I'm not one for totally discouraging someone, I'll let the blisters do that.

My first shirt was a viking-style Byrnie, fancy talk for a sleeveless vest. It also happens to be incredibly easy to eyeball up and design on the fly. Basically, you measure your chest, add ten inches and make a big tube. This tube cuts off at the armpit, so you need to fill in the chest and shoulders. Just model the tube on yourself and build two straps for your shoulders, then filling in the chest and back is easy. If everything goes right, you make a decent looking shirt without messing around with seams. As long as you can pull off 4-in-1 consistently, you should be fine.

But, more important than style are the rings themselves. SCA combat requirements state that 14 ga. wire with I think 3/8 in. rings is best. You can get away with much finer wire or larger rings if you don't mind just having a fashion piece. As far as materials go, I say pick stainless. It will last longer, look better, and is cheaper than aluminium. Don't even bother with galvanized. Go aluminum only if you must save on weight (hint, it costs more). All in all, you can get more than enough steel wire to make a shirt for about $50. Of course it is more for premade rings, but it really isn't that bad to make your own. You don't even have to make a formal mandrel setup, a bench vice for the drill and a good glove would work. Can't say much for the safety factor, but I managed to wind 40lbs. without any injury.

I also pulled the first shirt off in about a month. I had a week off from school, so I just powered through for about 10hr/day and banged out the main body tube. The fill in took place during the next few weeks, only because I was sitting in the back of class knitting bits and pieces, gotta love high school. I estimate the overall man hours at about 80-90. It wouldn't be hard at all to make two shirts in a year.

The only problem is that, this was not my first project. Nor was it even my first major project. I don't know how experienced you are, how technically able, and how much endurance you have. If you do anything like what I did, you will have some seriously mangled hands. Even pacing yourself, you may become discouraged by the scale of the project. I wouldn't start with the shirt. It would probably serve you better in the long run to spend a few months with smaller projects. Just get familiar with the weaving process and build up some calluses (calli?).

Just let me know if you need to know any more.

[Skjaldbakka]

I found a pattern for a maille dice pouch, and that is going to be my first project. I ordered aluminum rings from Ringlord, which were only about $1 more than steel for the same number of rings (and the difference in shipping made the aluminum cheaper). I will eventually want an authentic mandrel set-up, to take to events, as a powerdrill at events is a mite anachronistic.

I saw a video with someone making rings with a drill, and it looked really, really fast.

What's the deal with galvanized steel? Ringlord recommends the galvanized steel 14g. 3/8" rings for making armor. But I saw a youtube video (same guy as before) saying that the galvanized steel is bad.

[Morrandir]

Well, the pro to galvanized steel is that it's tough. The con is that it's tough. It takes some serious work to get a shirt made out of it, but that thing isn't falling apart anytime soon. For a first timer, aluminum is fine, and it'll keep the weight down.

[Skjaldbakka]

I'll have to include a couple of galv. steel rings in my next order, to experiment with. I figure the 1500 aluminum rings I ordered should be enough to keep me occupied over Winter break, and should make 2 maille pouches (one for me, one as a gift for someone).

[Alebeard_Thunderax]

I have to disagree with the assesment of galvy as tough. Galvanized is cheap, that is the only good thing I can say about it. Galvanized is not as hard or as springy as stainless, and as such it likes to deform and fall out of pattern. Galvanized will tarnish and eventually rust, something stainless won't do unless you plan on swimming in it. Any money you save will be lost to the oiling, polishing, and repairing that a galvanized suit will require. Maintenance is one thing, but a galvanized suit requires downright pampering to keep it in shape. The most you have to do to a stainless piece is throw it in the dryer for a polish.

Galvanized does have its uses as a practice medium. You can get an assortment of ring sizes and guages to try out with patterns and weaves. I keep a big tin full of bits when I just feel like messing around but don't want to ruin good wire.

[Lorn]

Right, I've got some experience here... though at this point, I've only done about 90% of the first glove (they're more important, can't use mail till I get speartested... >.>)

Start off making sets of five rings. That's one centre ring and four round the edge.

Put four of these together by threading a new ring through two of the outside rings on one and two of the outside rings on another. Repeat till it's connected.

Get another of these; lie them down and connect them up the sides. THIS BIT IS THE HARDEST PART I HAVE SO FAR COME ACROSS.

Keep doing that.

Armpits I have no idea about, but yeah.

My mail came in two convenient colours - unsplit links were normal, and split links had some form of black residue on them (as in, it'll come off if it's scratched too much.) Using the split links in the centre made this MUCH easier as they're different colours so I didn't get too confused.



Any help?

[Skjaldbakka]

For future reference, here is a link to the youtube demonstration I watched:

Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBQjp_oZ0Z8)
Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXz3aOz3HbM&feature=related)

Shirt 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd8ndgsHdFg&feature=related)
Shirt 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9GDFNEx5dI&feature=related)

[Skjaldbakka]

I am so disappointed! My rings didn't show up today. :smallfurious:

And don't give me that "rings are never late, nor are they early" stuff.

So, all kidding aside, I went to home depot and picked up the supplies I need to get started, and made my first rings out of some low grade mild steel wire that I got for really cheap. It isn't really any good for making anything (too weak for armor, too dirty for jewelry), but it is really easy to work with, which makes it perfect for practicing various patterns. I made a basic chain of 4-1 pattern easily enough, but I messed up on the spiral pattern, and those were the only two patterns that I didn't have to wait to look up online at work.

I couldn't find any needlenose pliers w/o teeth at home depot, which is unfortunate.

[13_CBS]

Perhaps you could grab a pair of needlenose pliers and simply wrap the teeth with something? Say, duct tape.

[Skjaldbakka]

But that would be cumbersome, and reduce the grip of the pliers. I'm not too irritated at the lack of non-teethed (sp?) pliers, since I'm not trying to make fancy jewelry (yet). But I will need to find some eventually, if I decide to try and turn a profit off of maille-ing(sp?).

EDIt- man, I really need to make a loom. . .