Help building a rune knight paladin grappler

[MetalHeart88]

First post!

Hey everybody, I've been gaming for a couple decades now and only used this forum as reading material until now, but I thought I could use a bit of help cus I want this one to come out right.

Party role would be a melee controller. Get up front and keep the pressure off the back line. Huge damage isn't necessary but never hurts to have in the back pocket. I originally built this as 16 rune knight fighter 4 dao genie warlock for a little extra damage and access to spike growth but I was talking to a friend and we got to talking about unarmed smiting andi thought it sounded like just the thing.

Since this is a concept character I'll be using point buy.

The idea so far

Stats: 15, 10, 14, 8, 10, 14

Race: custom lineage +2 str, +1 skill (getting dark vision from runes), feat heavy armor master for 18 str at start and extra survivability

Level split: level 1 as fighter for con save and unarmed fighting style. Take fighter to 5 or 6 then go paladin. I'm thinking 11 fighter 9 paladin, not sure what order to take those levels though. Also not sure what paladin subclass but I like crown for channel divinity taunt, ability to take damage for my allies, and eventual spirit guardians. Considered vengeance, but didn't think it offered as much as crown. Conquest for fear lockdown and redemption for counter spell also peak my interest but crown looks better to me though I am movable on that point

Feats I'm considering: skill expert seems necessary for the expertise in athletics, fae touched(grab hex?) Since I'll have spell slots and misty step is hard to pass up, Crusher since forced movement is also good, Mobile... Maybe. The extra movement and opportunity attack avoidance could be very nice for getting in position. Alert is always good and so is resilient wisdom but not sure when is fit most of these in other then skill expert at 4 and maybe crusher at 6 if I take fighter to 6 before paladin.

Not sure when to take what runes other then hill ASAP

Character concept is 5 foot female pro wrestler that gets in on underground fighting rings in her free time. Not sure what background I'd pick but her back story would be that she's from the world of dark sun and is the result of a powerful psionic experimenting with making muls fertile( mul father, half giant mother). All four of them (her, her parents and the psionic "doctor") escape from the sorcerer kings by making a deal with a water elemental to get through the plane of water and they arrive... Wherever the game is set.

I think that's all but if you have any questions feel free to ask and thanks in advance everybody.

MetalHeart88

[Skrum]

This looks like a pretty good build. I have less to say about the upper levels (10+) but Rune Knight is just a really solid class. It'll easily do exactly what you're describing though those low to middle levels. My only complaint about it is Cloud Rune is far and above the best rune (which is saying something because they're all useful). But I would not recommend skipping Cloud Rune, unless you have an incredibly compelling RP reason to not take it.

Even though I'm really high on paladins, I don't know that it's the choice to make here. My intuition says you'll feel like you're not getting a ton in the 12-16 range, when you're kinda waiting for the paladin levels to add up to something. At that level, a 2d8 smite a very small number of times per day just doesn't feel like it's gonna hack it. I'm also not really seeing the synergy between the it and Rune Knight.

What I think might be better options
Ancestral guardian barb (extra resiliency for you, a tanking feature to protect your allies, reckless attack to make sure your Action Surge flurries actually hit, and rage gives a second source of adv. on your grapples).

Rogue, probably swashbuckler (sneak attack will be a nice little rider effect that'll give you a lot more damage over time than smite will, cunning action will make sure you're able to get where you need to be, uncanny dodge will really help to keep you alive, and expertise is just gravy).

Bard. Lore is probably strongest, but whatever floats your boat. This is if you still want to go the "party leader/battle commander" route. Bardic inspiration is a great representation of commanding/aiding your allies, bards are full casters so you'll be able to backup heal, and yah....bards just have a lot of tools.

I think you're going to get a lot more out of one of these three (or even a tripleclass - I generally don't recommend going higher than barb 3, for instance).

[GeoffWatson]

Glory Paladins get Advantage on Athletics with their Channel Divinity.

[Seramus]

Glory Paladins get Advantage on Athletics with their Channel Divinity.This. Glory 5/Rune Knight 15 gets you advantage on athletics, double lifting capacity, enhance ability (double lifting capacity), and then all the goodies of Rune Knight 15.

[MetalHeart88]

I considered glory but I already get advantage on athletics from Giants might so it seemed a bit redundant. I thought the same with barbarian but ancestral guardian might be worth it.

Swashbuckler seems interesting to me. I think I'll have to take a look at that.

I tried bard in a very old version of this(before rune knight was even UA) and it worked ok but not great. I'll keep it in mind though.

[meandean]

Note that unarmed smites aren't RAW. The Sage Advice Compendium, in a rare moment of editorializing, explains that they don't cause any balance issues, effectively giving DMs the green light to approve them. But, your DM would still need to do so.

More of a backstory idea than a statistical one... if a water elemental saved you, maybe you're a Fathomless Warlock? The Tentacle isn't great, but it is something you can do with your bonus action after you activate Giant's Might. If you want to be a controller, you can eschew Agonizing Blast and take e.g. Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar instead. You can slow, or pull, or push! And silence is a great spell to combine with grappling, shutting down enemy casters. Fighter/warlock is MAD, but no more so than fighter/paladin...

[MetalHeart88]

Me and my dm agreed that everything else that says melee weapon attack work with unarmed strike so smite should too.

I didn't really look at fathomless warlock but it didn't impress me much when I looked at it by itself.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I really don't like coming on these threads and telling the OP, "don't build X (what you said you wanted to build); build Y". With that said, that's a lot of Paladin levels that might not get you too much. By way of comparison RK 15 gets you 10 uses of your runes per SR instead of 4. Based on 2 SR per LR that's potentially 30 instead of 12. So, if I was bringing an RK to a campaign that I knew was going to last until tier 4 I'd be looking at multi-classing options of 5 levels or less.

I love Fey Touched as a feat, and combining RK with a few levels of, say, Cleric to give you a similar feel to a Pally I think would be good.

[MetalHeart88]

I love Fey Touched as a feat, and combining RK with a few levels of, say, Cleric to give you a similar feel to a Pally I think would be good.

I was thinking something similar at work today. What subclass do you think? I was trying to think of one that helps with crowd control but couldn't come up with anything in particular.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I was thinking something similar at work today. What subclass do you think? I was trying to think of one that helps with crowd control but couldn't come up with anything in particular.

My first thought was Order when I read control, though others might have better ideas. One issue you're going to have is that RK wants high Con (maxed if possible), so you're going to be somewhat MAD, making control with your tertiary stat challenging. My thought would be to try and find spells that don't need saves as much as possible, regardless of what class you choose.
Of course Bless and Healing Word are old standbys for martials who take Cleric dips, but if you're going for multiple levels (maybe 5) you need to look at 2nd and 3rd level options. For example, the maligned Trickery Cleric, though it may not match with the character you had in mind, gets Mirror Image and PWT as 2nd level options. Invoke Duplicity on a character with limited spells is also good, so I actually think as a dip goes this is a viable option.

Edit: Spike Growth is a control option without a save that Nature Cleric gets. You also get a control Channel Divinity and some 3rd level control spells with that subclass. Not sure if that's an option for you. I generally think the base class of Cleric is a good dip for martials, so whatever fits your theme is probably the best choice.

[follacchioso]

You need more mobility, more speed... Your targets are not going to wait there until you grapple them, especially if they see a big paladin charging and smiting at them. When you have grappled them, you need speed to move them around the battlefield.

You also need items to make your unarmed attack count as magical weapons.

[Nefariis]

I played a grapple build with Glory Paladin once and I was extremely underwhelmed - you get far far more from expertise athletics from Rogue, Bard, or from some other source.

I would consider expertise athletics a requirement for an OP grappler build

[Falconcry]

I use a modified version of Colby’s from D4’s shield master Path of the Beast/ Rune Knight. Race is Loxodon so you can grapple two enemies ( one with trunk) while using bonus action shield shoves to knock them prone. Using Giant’s Might to grapple huge and lower. Taking skill expert at level 8 also lets you get that expertise in athletics which will be at advantage.

So holding down two mobs while piercing them with your tail. The have disadvantage to hit you while you will have advantage. Your tail acts as another shield giving you a d8 as a reaction. Plus if they do hit you your rage will halve the damage anyway.

[MetalHeart88]

You need more mobility, more speed... Your targets are not going to wait there until you grapple them, especially if they see a big paladin charging and smiting at them. When you have grappled them, you need speed to move them around the battlefield.

You also need items to make your unarmed attack count as magical weapons.

That's why I wanted fae touched and mobile. Other suggestions for mobility?

I was going to try and get the eldritch claw tattoo for magic fists.

I like the nature cleric idea, getting thorn whip to pull targets along with spike growth, plant growth and spirit guardians sounds kinda great.

I still have hopes for crown paladin. Does it just ask to much to get working? Maybe abandon spirit guardians and just take 6 levels for save aura?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

That's why I wanted fae touched and mobile. Other suggestions for mobility?

I was going to try and get the eldritch claw tattoo for magic fists.

I like the nature cleric idea, getting thorn whip to pull targets along with spike growth, plant growth and spirit guardians sounds kinda great.

I still have hopes for crown paladin. Does it just ask to much to get working? Maybe abandon spirit guardians and just take 6 levels for save aura?

If you're really stuck on Paly, how about Rune Knight 3/ Paladin X? Take 6 levels of Crown Paladin, then 3 of RK, then the rest Paly. That still gets you an extra fighting style, second wind, action surge, giant might, and 2 runes per SR. There just aren't many 5e multi-classes that make good even(ish) splits, and Fighter/ Paladin is one of those that's going to be tricky.

[follacchioso]

That's why I wanted fae touched and mobile. Other suggestions for mobility?

I was going to try and get the eldritch claw tattoo for magic fists.

I like the nature cleric idea, getting thorn whip to pull targets along with spike growth, plant growth and spirit guardians sounds kinda great.

I still have hopes for crown paladin. Does it just ask to much to get working? Maybe abandon spirit guardians and just take 6 levels for save aura?Orcs are fast, ad they can use their BA to dash. They have other features that fit well with paladin.

As magic items, boots of speed are a good solution.

Another thing you can consider is to be a Shield Master basher instead of a grappler. It works better on a paladin, as you can keep sword and shield like a normal paladin, and be have a good use for your BAs and Athletics score.

[meandean]

Bard. Lore is probably strongest, but whatever floats your boat. This is if you still want to go the "party leader/battle commander" route. Bardic inspiration is a great representation of commanding/aiding your allies, bards are full casters so you'll be able to backup heal, and yah....bards just have a lot of tools.If you're going to 6th level, which it seems like we're contemplating with most of these ideas, then Lore Bard could pick up warding bond. That's a non-concentration, action-economy-free way to soak up damage on behalf of a buddy. You could yoink that along with spirit guardians (or counterspell​).

Outside of Magical Secrets, a bard also gets suggestion, and I don't think most DMs would find "attack me!" to usually be at all an unreasonable suggestion. (And its duration is 8 hours! Of course, it's concentration and they'll be attacking you.) And silvery barbs and Cutting Words to protect your allies.

But, unless you just want to be a Paladin which is fine, I think Ancestral Guardian makes by far the most sense. You don't have to put a 13 in a stat you don't otherwise need, you get the draw aggro mechanic, you get the reduce damage for an ally mechanic. Heck, this character even has an interesting ancestry... I think her "ancestral guardians" would be fun to work into the scenes.