Bespoke Stat Boosting Items - +1/+3/+5?

[Segev]

I'm sure this has come up before, but I wasn't able to find discussion of it in this forum in my relatively brief search. Obviously, the reason why +2/+4/+6 are the listed stat-boosting items (headbands of intellect, periapts of wisdom, etc.) is because an even numbered boost always pushes the stat bonus up by 1. It has more or less the same effect for every character that puts it on, making it easy to agree that it's the same value. (The odd case where it enables a prerequisite for a feat for one character but not another notwithstanding.)

However, let's say that this isn't a magic item made as an item for sale in a magic mart to any purchaser, or as a prize to be given out to any winner of a competition, or as a gift for an end user whose physical and mental capabilities are unknown to the commissioning gift-giver. Let's say this magic item is being ordered by the end user, who knows he can't afford the next most expensive in the +2/+4/+6 range, but wants to squeeze out a bit more than he could get from the one he can afford. Maybe he's been really working on his endurance, and noticed some improvements, but not enough to really say he's actively hardier. Or he needs just a little bit more heft to carry just a little bit more weight, or every little bit of weight he can carry helps (i.e. he's happier with +3 to strength than +2 even if he has an even strength score because it still boosts his carry capacity...and he already has a belt of ant haul).

Is it even possible, in the rules for 3.PF, to build or even find made for someone of similar interest a +1, +3, or +5 stat boosting item?

The RAW - or at least the written guidelines - specify "bonus squared times 1000 gp," not providing a limit that requires even bonuses, so I would argue that the RAW (or at least the guidelines) support the existence of +1 (for 1000 gp), +3 (for 9000 gp) and +5 (for 25,000 gp) items. But is it broken to permit it? If you've got a stat you're never, ever planning to invest a level-up stat point in, but you've got Craft Wondrous Item, is it wrong to argue to your DM that it's balanced for you to spend just 500 gp and a day of crafting time to make a +1 item for that particular stat? Or 9 days and 4500 gp for a +3 item? Rather than having to specifically get a +2 or +4 item for the same effect. Is it wrong to want your odd stat to give you some financial benefit, here? Is it unbalanced?

The most abusive I could see this being is a party having all of their characters spend 1,000 gp per odd stat to get them all up to the next even stat, and I'm not sure how broken that would be. Or having characters with a SAD build save 11,000 gp market cost on getting their "maximum bonus" item. (+5 instead of +6, by virtue of an odd stat)

[redking]

Monte Cook, one of the designers of 3E, answers these questions here. (https://web.archive.org/web/20070824113749/http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly4.html)


Would an item that grants a +1 bonus only to a given ability score require a lower caster level than those that add +2?

You shouldn't have things that grant a "+ odd number" to an ability score. The reason for this is that a +2 or +4 always means something (your bonus increases to a +1 or a +2 no matter what your score). A "+ odd number" only means something if you have an odd score. Not only is that weird ("This belt makes me stronger when I wear it, but not you."), it also makes it too tempting to min-max with such an item.

[ciopo]

Odd ability score enhancement bonuses exists already by way of the extract gift spell from fiendix codex I (I might be getting the source wrong).

Extending/allowing it from normal items is of no issue to me, and that quote about the oddity of odd ability scores is hilarious to me, in a "it's a problem you introduced, if you didn't habe odd attributes do nothing then there wouldn't be a problem"

Are the ability scores rathrr than thr modifirr even used anywhere? Carry capacity, ability score damage, whqt else I don't remember, negative HP?

[Segev]

Monte Cook, one of the designers of 3E, answers these questions here. (https://web.archive.org/web/20070824113749/http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly4.html)

Ah, good to know. I would disagree that "this belt makes me stronger, but not you" is an accurate statement - Strength is a particularly bad example for him to use because a +1 to strength does change your carry capacity no matter what your strength score is - but I get where he's coming from.

Is he right to be concerned about the min/maxing? I am not going to deny that it would happen - that is absolutely the point of my post in general - but I am questioning whether it's actually that bad of a thing. As it is, min/maxing just means people strive to have even valued stats before stat-boosting items. It means they min/max their Intrinsic bonuses from wishes or Tomes. SAD builds want to start with the highest even value they can, put all 5 stat-ups from level into it, then get a +5 tome. If they can't start with an even value, they either put only 4 of their stat-ups in, or they top off with a +4 tome instead of a +5. Is having one more "knob" to min/max with in exactly the same field actually a problem?

It's why I mentioned them as bespoke magic items, too, rather than as something you'd find made for a magic mart to sell, or to award as a prize to an as-yet unknown winner of a contest, or other cases where the maker wouldn't know the specific needs/abilities of the intended user.


Odd ability score enhancement bonuses exists already by way of the extract gift spell from fiendix codex I (I might be getting the source wrong).

Extending/allowing it from normal items is of no issue to me, and that quote about the oddity of odd ability scores is hilarious to me, in a "it's a problem you introduced, if you didn't habe odd attributes do nothing then there wouldn't be a problem"
I need to look up extract gift! Though not really an option where I'm looking to use this, most likely. The odd ability score thing is also a thing with tomes, as mentioned above, as well as with level up stat boosts.

I will go a little easier on Monte Cook, here, though: odd stats don't "do nothing." They just do a lot LESS. If there's a stat prereq, it is ALWAYS an odd stat. Power Attack requires 13 strength, for example, not 12 or 14. So in the weird case where a character really wants power attack but isn't pushing his strength to 14 or more likely 16, a +1 strength item could get him from 12 to 13 and let him take the feat. But that just further undermines the position that you shouldn't allow +1 enhancement bonus items.

Edit after looking up the spell: Huh. The material cost of the spell is even the magic item formula, exactly, but broken down to specifically include odd-numbered enhancement bonuses.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Are the ability scores rathrr than thr modifirr even used anywhere? Carry capacity, ability score damage, whqt else I don't remember, negative HP?
Suffocation. You can hold your breath for 2 rounds per con before you have to start making saves against suffocation. And feat prerequisites, as Segev said.

[Telonius]

Monte Cook, one of the designers of 3E, answers these questions here. (https://web.archive.org/web/20070824113749/http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly4.html)

Yeah, really not buying that answer, since +1/3/5 Tomes exist. Any increase in an ability score is a benefit. If nothing else, it's an extra defense in case of taking ability damage.

(Also, just noticed something my groups may have been house-ruling - In cases of Initiative ties where the total modifier is the same, we always played it as highest Dex score goes first)

[Particle_Man]

Yeah I think odd-ability score enhancers are fine. I mean, players get the +1 stat boost every 4 levels anyhow, characters can take odd numbers of ability score damage or drain from various sources, etc.

The alternative is to leave behind ability scores entirely and just go straight to having bonuses as your new scores (so instead of "my str is 18" you would say "my str is +4"). I believe that Mutants and Masterminds goes that route.

[Ramza00]

DMs should not be giving +1/+3/+5 as Random Loot.

Players who are crafting themselves or buy the item from a smith / storekeeper are fine.

[loky1109]

Do you want +1 Str item? As DM I'm ok about it. With a price of +2 Str item.

[Segev]

DMs should not be giving +1/+3/+5 as Random Loot.

Players who are crafting themselves or buy the item from a smith / storekeeper are fine.I think I agree with this: if it's genuinely random loot, it should follow the guideline for the reason Monte Cook laid out. If it's not random - perhaps there's a particular story behind the item, or, as you note, it's being self-crafted or commissioned specifically - it seems like something that's reasonable.


Do you want +1 Str item? As DM I'm ok about it. With a price of +2 Str item.
Why, though?

[loky1109]

Why, though?

Because it functionally the same. You shouldn't be able to take same bonus for lower price.

[ciopo]

A thought : odd ability scores that are in need of being evened out may be more common if they are rolled instead of point buy.

I still feel it's fine, because odd enhancement bonuses in this scenario simply replace ability score increases or buying +(odd) tomes/manuals.

And in that regard, I can see why from a design perspective I wouldn't want there to exist something that does "the same" for 1/27.5 of the price

[Segev]

A thought : odd ability scores that are in need of being evened out may be more common if they are rolled instead of point buy.

I still feel it's fine, because odd enhancement bonuses in this scenario simply replace ability score increases or buying +(odd) tomes/manuals.

And in that regard, I can see why from a design perspective I wouldn't want there to exist something that does "the same" for 1/27.5 of the price

That is true, though once again, with point-buy, this just deprecates spending points on odd ability scores. I question why it does "the same;" in theory, if you're getting the biggest tome that can give you benefit, you're getting either +4 or +5. If you're stuck with even-bonus enhancement items, you'll just go for +4 instead of +5 in your tome if +5 would leave you at an odd score. Now, maybe you still just go for the +4 tome and a +6 item, because that's cheaper than the combination of a +5 tome and a +5 item. Or maybe you go for the +5 tome, knowing you can later sell the +5 item and put that towards a +6 item when you eventually get another +1 to the stat from somewhere else.

[ciopo]

That is true, though once again, with point-buy, this just deprecates spending points on odd ability scores. I question why it does "the same;" in theory, if you're getting the biggest tome that can give you benefit, you're getting either +4 or +5. If you're stuck with even-bonus enhancement items, you'll just go for +4 instead of +5 in your tome if +5 would leave you at an odd score. Now, maybe you still just go for the +4 tome and a +6 item, because that's cheaper than the combination of a +5 tome and a +5 item. Or maybe you go for the +5 tome, knowing you can later sell the +5 item and put that towards a +6 item when you eventually get another +1 to the stat from somewhere else.

I meant +1.

Like, if I rolled or for some reason bought 11 on charisma, and charisma is not an important ability to me, 1000gp to bring it to 12 is a "might as well, it's cheap", while 27500for a tome of leadership is more a no than a yes.

So, in this regard, I can see why +1 enhancement bonuses might be disallowed, "odd ability score in an ability score I do not care getting +6 enhancement/+5 inherent"

In this regard, I wiuld actually like +1 enhancement items to exists "officially", because they wiuld fill this niche of evening out an ability score I otherwise don't really care all that much about.

A side consideration: it's weird for me to talk about tomes/manuals (or wishes/miracles), because while I know they are a thing I've never actually managed to obtain inherent bonuses to my ability scores, in years of 3.5 . Neither +6 enhancement bonuses now that I think about it, never played higher than 15th level

[Segev]

I meant +1.

Like, if I rolled or for some reason bought 11 on charisma, and charisma is not an important ability to me, 1000gp to bring it to 12 is a "might as well, it's cheap", while 27500for a tome of leadership is more a no than a yes.

So, in this regard, I can see why +1 enhancement bonuses might be disallowed, "odd ability score in an ability score I do not care getting +6 enhancement/+5 inherent"

In this regard, I wiuld actually like +1 enhancement items to exists "officially", because they wiuld fill this niche of evening out an ability score I otherwise don't really care all that much about.

A side consideration: it's weird for me to talk about tomes/manuals (or wishes/miracles), because while I know they are a thing I've never actually managed to obtain inherent bonuses to my ability scores, in years of 3.5 . Neither +6 enhancement bonuses now that I think about it, never played higher than 15th level

Ah, I see. I can see at high level "1000 gp per odd stat I have to just eke out an extra +1? Sure, why not?" being a thing some people say, but I also question whether it's actually a problem. If it's a stat you don't care about, 1000 gp to get it from 9 to 10, or 13 to 14, or the like, is probably not a huge deal.

What prompted me thinking about it is having a level 10 PC with an 11 constitution, and the +1 to get to 12 would be 10 more hp, which would be pretty nice and probably worth 1000 gp. Or 500 gp and a day's work. Whereas 4000 gp for +2 is...less than attractive. I might even argue that Constitution is the stat that would most benefit from this regardless of its actual value, or benefit more the lower its actual value is. Would that be broken, having an 11 constitution be 3000 gp "savings" compared to having a 10?

[Biggus]

Because it functionally the same. You shouldn't be able to take same bonus for lower price.

It isn't the same though, there are lots of examples that have already been mentioned. For instance, if you have Str 12, a +1 Str item will qualify you for power attack, but it won't give you +1 to attack and damage like a +2 item will.

[Thurbane]

There is some precedent for +1 Enhancement items...sorta. The Lifting Belt (in the Dark and Stormy Knight online adventure) gives a +1 Enhancement bonus to Strength, but only for purposes of calculating carrying capacity. Priced at 500gp.

[redking]

There is some precedent for +1 Enhancement items...sorta. The Lifting Belt (in the Dark and Stormy Knight online adventure) gives a +1 Enhancement bonus to Strength, but only for purposes of calculating carrying capacity. Priced at 500gp.

This reinforces what Monte Cook is saying. If there is a bonus, it should be available to everyone using the item.

[Cortillaen]

This reinforces what Monte Cook is saying. If there is a bonus, it should be available to everyone using the item.
But there are tons of items that only provide benefit (not just meaningful benefit but any benefit at all) to certain characters based on how they're built, so I don't think that argument works.

Just my two cents', I'd only allow odd-value ability boosters within the existing even ones (ie if you normally have +2/4/6, I'd allow +3 and +5), and I'd probably have them cost around 3/4 the cost of the next even booster (ie a +3 would cost around 3/4 of a +4). That ensures the existing structure still defines the lower and upper limits. Beyond that, I can't imagine a situation where it could really be abused. Sure, you can reduce a high stat by 1 and bump two lower stats by 1 to come out with an extra net mod bonus in the end, but more well-rounded ability arrays are rarely a problem. it's almost always optimizing the one ability score that matters. And in the case of rolled stats, I don't care because rolled abilities are far more unbalancing than these items could ever be.

[KoDT69]

Lol the magic item creation table has a formula that does NOT have any restrictions on odd numbers. As others have said, there is very little room for abuse here. If they truly believed that odd numbers were so undesirable, then there should be rules in the point buy system to only have even numbers and feat prerequisites should also be even numbers. Your maximum inherent bonus is also odd. I get liking even numbers better for many reasons, but nothing in the system other than bonuses only changing at even numbers indicates that Monte's opinion is supported in any way. If an odd bonus item makes a bigger impact on the character's power for a cheaper price, it's still a result of how ability scores work more than the magic item system. I fully agree with the above poster that rolling for ability scores can possibly wreck the balance more than gear selection.

[Melcar]

Is he right to be concerned about the min/maxing? I am not going to deny that it would happen - that is absolutely the point of my post in general - but I am questioning whether it's actually that bad of a thing.

I would say no! As a blanket statement he is blatantly wrong! We all play D&D differently, and the min/maxing conducive nature of 3.5 is one of the reasons why this edition is so popular.

Min/maxing is not even a problem in itself, if that is the way you like playing. The only thing you need to worry about is only balancing against the specific campaign and table. If level 40+ Pun Pun games is what you guys enjoy then that is factually better than not min/maxing!

Optimization is only ever a problem if it inhibits the game or the fun people at the table are having… so forget about that old fart’s opinion!

No way is increasing stats +5 more broken than +6… so don’t worry! Have fun!

[Jay R]

Because it functionally the same. You shouldn't be able to take same bonus for lower price.

But it isn't functionally the same. If I have a DEX 12, and wear a item of +1 DEX, then my DEX of 13 means when I am poisoned and lose 1 DEX, it doesn't reduce my DEX bonus.

A wizard with INT 19, or a sorcerer with CHA 19, can cast 9th level spells. With INT or CHA 18, they can't.

An odd stat doesn't improve things all the time, but it does improve them.

[You can run your game as you please; I'm not arguing with that. But the statement that it is functionally the same is simply untrue. It is usually functionally the same, which is not the same statement.]



I once had a custom item which included a +1 INT at level 6 (when my INT was 19), for a functional INT of 20. At level 8, My INT went up to 20, and I upgraded the item to +2, for a functional INT of 22. At level 12, my INT went up to 21, and I upgraded it again, to INT +3. This meant that all my INT increases from leveling up improved my spellcasting, not just half of them.

This actually answers Monte Cook's complaint about odd items, because his objection should apply just as much to ability increases from leveling up. If INT 19 from reaching level 4 is acceptable, then INT 19 from an item should be just as acceptable.

[Rleonardh]

Absolutely no reason not to have odd stat boost items at all.

For a monk I have: +1 con +2 wis amulet, healing belt+3 str and a lightning bolt glove 3d6 with +2 dex

Is any of this wrong nope as the group is ok with it, plus it's not game breaking like....

Gloves of true strike for 2000 gp, not even getting in the debate about it should be like 200,000 or what ever.... Maybe as a epic character 🤔

[loky1109]

I see your point, but... your argument is on my side. Look at wizard with 18 int. He want be able to cast 9th level spell. I didn't know, why he doesn't n't buy +6 item, but ok, he has only +1 and +2 options. +2 will give him slightly more than +1, but actually both options give him what he wants - ability to cast 9th level.
Your point was "+1 gives something even when stat is even". Yes, it does. And it's point pro mine.

[Troacctid]

But it isn't functionally the same. If I have a DEX 12, and wear a item of +1 DEX, then my DEX of 13 means when I am poisoned and lose 1 DEX, it doesn't reduce my DEX bonus.
Providing a small buffer against having your modifier reduced is an order of magnitude less powerful than increasing your modifier.

Personally, if my player wanted a +3 stat item, I would price it more like a cursed +4 stat item, since that feels a lot closer to its actual value. Take 10% off the top and call it good.

[Segev]

I'm trying to figure out how all of these "it's a bad idea to allow +odd items" arguments aren't arguments saying "it's bad to allow players to have odd stats."

Odd stats are, in fact, deprecated, because they are generally considered investment that doesn't return much. We've had lots of discussion about why it does return more than you might think, but nobody is claiming that even stats aren't just better.

It seems to me that the +odd item makes odd stats catch up a bit with even stats for value. You may be stuck with having invested into a stat thta isn't quite getting you to that next stat mod, but you can spend a lot less to get to that next stat mod than if you were still on the even number below your odd stat.

[Rleonardh]

Simple really, most think if it's not in the book it's not allowed or worth it.

You the player or as dm can do anything as you darn well want.

There are some things that would just be to stupid to allow or just for kicks.

[pabelfly]

Providing a small buffer against having your modifier reduced is an order of magnitude less powerful than increasing your modifier.

Personally, if my player wanted a +3 stat item, I would price it more like a cursed +4 stat item, since that feels a lot closer to its actual value. Take 10% off the top and call it good.

If I was going to go to the trouble with having odd-stat items, I'd probably do something like this. I feel like people trying to get odd-stat items are trying to get the benefit of an even-stat item to boost their stats up to the next level, but get away with it on the cheap, and random edge-case justifications being given in this thread feel like excuses rather than legitimate reasons.

[Particle_Man]

Since most ability damage/drain effects tend to be temporary (at least in the long term) perhaps another way around it is to have players "round up" their odd stats to the nearest even number at chargen, and allow them to add +2 to a stat at levels 4, 12, and 20. It is a bit more generous, but avoids most of the "odd stat" stuff. I suppose it would lead to players only bothering to go for +4 tomes and the like for stats, in most cases.

[Lans]

Providing a small buffer against having your modifier reduced is an order of magnitude less powerful than increasing your modifier.

Personally, if my player wanted a +3 stat item, I would price it more like a cursed +4 stat item, since that feels a lot closer to its actual value. Take 10% off the top and call it good.

My idea is on a similar vein would put it at halfway between the odd bonus and the next even bonus, so for a +1/3/5 the costs would be 2.5k/12.5k/30.5vs yours of 3.6/14.4/32.4.

[Biggus]

Given that you can spend one point at a time

1) during character creation

2) with your every-4-levels increases

3) with inherent bonuses

4) with the epic Great Strength etc feats

I don't see why it's wrong to allow magic items to do it. Spells and the magic items derived from them are the odds one out in fact.

[Segev]

My idea is on a similar vein would put it at halfway between the odd bonus and the next even bonus, so for a +1/3/5 the costs would be 2.5k/12.5k/30.5vs yours of 3.6/14.4/32.4.The guidelines that are generally treated as RAW, if we accept that the printed magic items aren't a limiting requirement, would place +1/+3/+5 at 1000, 9000, and 25000, which is lower than your suggestion, but I'm not sure it's actually so much lower as to be a problem, myself. The formula used for the +2/+4/+6 items doesn't need +4 to be halfway between +2 and +6, after all. It's deliberately non-linear, and technically the odd ones are giving significatnly less benefit than the even ones.

Remember, to take advantage of an odd stat-booster, you have to have an odd stat. That's not, "An even stat you didn't pay for," that's "an even stat you overpaid for because you didn't get to the next +1 bonus."


Given that you can spend one point at a time

1) during character creation

2) with your every-4-levels increases

3) with inherent bonuses

4) with the epic Great Strength etc feats

I don't see why it's wrong to allow magic items to do it. Spells and the magic items derived from them are the odds one out in fact.

I am inclined to agree. Glad others agree with me, and also grateful for the discussion on both sides. The broad perspectives are nice to see.

[Gnaeus]

We used odd stat + items and it wasn't broken. It usually wasn't even noticible.

[Thurbane]

We used odd stat + items and it wasn't broken. It usually wasn't even noticible.

I haven't actually used them in our games, but I would imagine this would be the case with us as well.

I cannot see what the kerfuffle is about. Many magic items rely on meta-game concepts to function (i.e. odd or even ability scores), and plenty of items work more differently depending on who is using them.

I mean, right there in core, you have Manuals and Tomes that give +1 increases to ability scores.

A character using a Manual of Quickness of Action +1 is going to have a different outcome depending on whether their Dex is 10 or 11.

[pabelfly]

Here's a question I have... who would purchase an item with an odd stat if they have an even base stat? Like, let's say you have a 14 DEX, would anyone buy a +1 DEX item? What price would be your break point for purchasing said odd-statted item?

[Rleonardh]

+1 1000
+2 4000
+3 9000
+4 16000
+5 25000
+6 36000

I'm a rogue who is level 3 have 14 dex, buy+1 level put boost on dex, now 16.

Than sense I'm a sneak attack person, I'm going to up my strength with the +1 with my strength of 15 to have 16.
Hand 1000
gp to my friendly spell caster to make said items, promise him more loot next time we find some to make up the exp cost, as I'm using umd to help out healing out of combat.
And also fork over some money to wizard for a nice
wand of enfeeblement to help weaken the hard hitters so he can cast better spells, maybe even get the rest of party to fork over some cash as well sense it's for the party and just not for me, the wands that is.



Now I got a question: how do you handle stay item that increase int?
Do you get more skill points at new level??
I always ruled it as no.

[Segev]

Now I got a question: how do you handle stay item that increase int?
Do you get more skill points at new level??
I always ruled it as no.

3.5 is ambiguous about it, and I've seen DMs rule that you can get it if you're wearing it when you level up, or if you "habitually" wear it. I've also seen DMs say that only permanent bonuses apply, so if you can "take it off," it doesn't count.

Pathfinder is more explicit: headbands of intellect in Pathfinder do NOT give you bonus skill points for the increased intelligence, but instead they have one skill per +2 they provide that they automatically give you maximum ranks in. Each headband has those skills selected when created. So a +6 Headband of Great Intelligence might have the skills Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate, for example, that it maxes out the ranks of when you wear it.

[Gnaeus]

Here's a question I have... who would purchase an item with an odd stat if they have an even base stat? Like, let's say you have a 14 DEX, would anyone buy a +1 DEX item? What price would be your break point for purchasing said odd-statted item?

The main reason, other than protecting you from some poison that does 1 dex damage or shivering touch or the like, would be as a placeholder. I want a +2 item, but I don't have 2kgp or 4 crafting days. So I create a +1, to use my crafting time, and now it's just 3 days to upgrade when I have the time/money. Not so much life changing as mildly convenient.

[RSGA]

Now I got a question: how do you handle stay item that increase int?
Do you get more skill points at new level??
I always ruled it as no.

Notably, the main source of +int in core specifically states that it doesn't give extra skill points, so presumably any other source of +int not based off that should if it gets in as perm/lasting/whatever other criteria are in play.

[Thurbane]

Pathfinder specifically says Int increases retrospectively give more skills, which I think is a good thing, but as noted, 3.5 RAW says "nope".

[Jay R]

Providing a small buffer against having your modifier reduced is an order of magnitude less powerful than increasing your modifier.

Yup. I never denied it. I just showed that it's not functionally the same.

Note also that if it's for the stat that you improve every fourth level, then a +odd item will provide that "order of magnitude less powerful" benefit half the time, but a +even item will also provide that "order of magnitude less powerful" benefit half the time.

[Suppose that you start at INT 16, and intend to increase INT at every 4th level. Then the +odd headband of intellect makes your INT odd from levels 1-3, 8-11, and 16-19. Meanwhile, a +even headband makes your INT odd, and is providing that "order of magnitude less powerful" benefit, at levels 4-7, 12-15, and 20.

I could see two wizards in the same party, one of whom had a INT one higher than the other one. I could see them having a +2 and +3 headband, and swapping them every four levels, so that they always get the most possible benefit from them. In this (admittedly rare situation) they would always get more benefit out of them that out of two +2 headbands, and half the time they would get less benefit than out of +2 and +4 headbands.


Personally, if my player wanted a +3 stat item, I would price it more like a cursed +4 stat item, since that feels a lot closer to its actual value. Take 10% off the top and call it good.

That's a reasonable DM call, and I have no problem with you making that decision, even if it's not what I would do.

------


Here's a question I have... who would purchase an item with an odd stat if they have an even base stat? Like, let's say you have a 14 DEX, would anyone buy a +1 DEX item? What price would be your break point for purchasing said odd-statted item?

If I am 100 xps away from 4th level, and intend to increase my DEX at 4th level, then I would much rather buy a +1 DEX item than pay more for a +2 DEX item.

If I have picked up but not read a Manual of Quickness of Action +1, +3, or +5, then I would prefer to buy the cheaper +1 item than a +2 item.

If I can only afford the +1 item, but might be able to upgrade it later, then I would purchase a +1 DEX item.

[Rleonardh]

Consider that's it's 1000 for a +1 or 500 if created
You can buy/make a few to get your odd stats to even.
If following the
+2 4000
+4 16000
Than it's base squared x1000

+1 1000
+2 4000
+3 9000
+4 16000
+5 25000
+6 36000

Say a level 4 wizard with 4000gp
Str 8
Dex 13 +1 for 500gp now 14
Con 14
Int 15 +1 level 4, +2 for 2000gp now 18
Wis 12
Cha 10
Leaves 1500gp for other things maybe a healing belt or 2

[sleepyphoenixx]

Here's a question I have... who would purchase an item with an odd stat if they have an even base stat? Like, let's say you have a 14 DEX, would anyone buy a +1 DEX item? What price would be your break point for purchasing said odd-statted item?

Anyone at level 4 or 12 probably.
No reason to buy a +2 item early when you get your first stat increase at 4.
No reason to spring for +4 at level 12 when +3 will have the same effect until you hit 16.
No reason to pay for a +6 if you're not level 20 yet.

Basically at every level where you end up with an odd number in your main stat you could buy a cheaper stat booster and spend the saved money on other things for 4 levels before upgrading.

It's similar for secondary or even tertiary stats.
You could save money by getting a +5 item and +3 tome instead of a +4 tome and a +4 item for example, or make going for the +5 tome worth it without sacrificing your main stat.

[Vaern]

Here's a question I have... who would purchase an item with an odd stat if they have an even base stat? Like, let's say you have a 14 DEX, would anyone buy a +1 DEX item? What price would be your break point for purchasing said odd-statted item?
IIRC, if two people roll the same initiative you look at their dexterity score to determine who goes first, and if they're the same you flip a coin. Having 15 dex instead of 14 can make the difference for a tie breaker even if it doesn't actually affect your rolls.
Feats tend to require odd ability scores as prerequisites. If your DM lets you use your modified score when determining whether you qualify then the +1 dex can be valuable for feat feat selection.
If you encounter ability drain or damage without immunies, having the extra point is still an extra bit of ability damage you can tank.
Plenty of potential reasons to invest 1k to get a 15 dex :p

[wilphe]

I think it is also reasonable to point out that at some point Item slots are going to be more a limitation than raw GP/XP expenditure.

You aren't just paying 1,000 GP to boost your CHA from 11 to 12, there is also the opportunity cost of what else you could have worn in that slot

[Gnaeus]

I think it is also reasonable to point out that at some point Item slots are going to be more a limitation than raw GP/XP expenditure.

You aren't just paying 1,000 GP to boost your CHA from 11 to 12, there is also the opportunity cost of what else you could have worn in that slot

Maybe. But I would imagine that most games that allow custom items enough to use bespoke enhancement items also would use the effect stacking rules, so adding +1 cha to your cloak of resistance +2 is just 1500 gp instead of 1000.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Maybe. But I would imagine that most games that allow custom items enough to use bespoke enhancement items also would use the effect stacking rules, so adding +1 cha to your cloak of resistance +2 is just 1500 gp instead of 1000.

As a common effect ability boosts don't pay the 50% surcharge. The cost is the same as if you bought the items separately.

[Segev]

On the question of "Who would buy an odd stat boost item if they have an even stat," I counter with, "Who would buy an even stat boost tome if they have an odd stat?"

[Rleonardh]

Who would give there players a item like this?
It's 1000 for +1 so would you be more inclined to give out more in chests that a player can use? Maybe let them start with said item, like a family heirloom.

[Segev]

Who would give there players a item like this?
It's 1000 for +1 so would you be more inclined to give out more in chests that a player can use? Maybe let them start with said item, like a family heirloom.

I mean, I list it as "bespoke" in the thread title for a reason: perhaps the wizard at 11 Con doesn't want to spend 36 days and 18,000 gp to get +3 hp/level, when he could spend instead 25 days and 12,500 gp. Or the lower-level wizard has a spare 500 gp and a day of downtime, but doesn't have 4 days of downtime and a spare 2,000 gp.

[Elkad]

I allow it, and at the correct price.

I don't buy the arguments against it.

The reasons are already here. Lots of feats take an odd number to unlock. You need a 19 to cast 9th level spells. And every stat point DOES matter for something, even if it's just carry capacity or resolving ties.

[spectralphoenix]

To some extent, I feel like making odd-numbered items as "bespoke" pieces actually makes things worse, because it implies a level of meta knowledge I'm not really comfortable with. Unless you're playing in an anime RPG style setting where players can check their own stats and know how the rules work, it doesn't make make much sense for a fighter to know that he can get a belt of half-giant strength and hit that breakpoint that would make him just as good in combat as if he had a normal +2. The idea that a character can go from 14 to 15 strength and not change much but 15->16 results in hitting better and harder with every swing is a rules abstraction.


Given that you can spend one point at a time

1) during character creation

2) with your every-4-levels increases

3) with inherent bonuses

4) with the epic Great Strength etc feats

I don't see why it's wrong to allow magic items to do it. Spells and the magic items derived from them are the odds one out in fact.

One thing I'd note about all of those is that they're all non-transferable, one-time increases. So to go back to Monte Cook's statement, you can't take off your 4th level bonus point and let someone else try it on for a while. It's a measure of personal growth.

[KoDT69]

To some extent, I feel like making odd-numbered items as "bespoke" pieces actually makes things worse, because it implies a level of meta knowledge I'm not really comfortable with. Unless you're playing in an anime RPG style setting where players can check their own stats and know how the rules work, it doesn't make make much sense for a fighter to know that he can get a belt of half-giant strength and hit that breakpoint that would make him just as good in combat as if he had a normal +2. The idea that a character can go from 14 to 15 strength and not change much but 15->16 results in hitting better and harder with every swing is a rules abstraction.

The meta portion is indeed a non-sequiter argument. Like it or not, there is a lot that can be called metagaming on the surface. You think that feat selection isn't the same or worse level of metagaming? How would your character know they're building a feat chain toward let's say Devastating Critical. 7 prerequisite feats. You gotta wonder. Is it metagaming? Or is your character more aware of how their universe works. Those 7 required prerequisites are all (in this case anyway) logical techniques a fighter would learn in his efforts to maximize the effect of single attacks. So if you think a Fighter even at first level in this magic filled world can't logically decide "I can buy a belt of magic strength real big for all my gold, or I can buy a belt of better strength than I have now by a little and get better armor so I get hit less", then I don't know how else to explain.

Being commoners ourselves we take for granted or underestimate how much our characters would actually know.

Also, as a DM, if a player uses the word "bespoke" the answer is no ;)

[spectralphoenix]

The meta portion is indeed a non-sequiter argument. Like it or not, there is a lot that can be called metagaming on the surface. You think that feat selection isn't the same or worse level of metagaming? How would your character know they're building a feat chain toward let's say Devastating Critical. 7 prerequisite feats. You gotta wonder. Is it metagaming? Or is your character more aware of how their universe works. Those 7 required prerequisites are all (in this case anyway) logical techniques a fighter would learn in his efforts to maximize the effect of single attacks.
The player sits down, opens a bunch of sourcebooks, and decides on a build. The character, unless he's in a self-aware stick-figure parody or the like, does not. He develops his skill with powerful single attacks until one day he has Devastating Critical.


So if you think a Fighter even at first level in this magic filled world can't logically decide "I can buy a belt of magic strength real big for all my gold, or I can buy a belt of better strength than I have now by a little and get better armor so I get hit less", then I don't know how else to explain.

Similarly, the player knows his character has 15 STR. It's one thing for the character to say "I'll take the smaller belt and some armor," it's another thing for him to say "I checked myself with my Stat-o-Vision and have determined that I only need a +1 to hit my next optimum breakpoint, so I will invent a custom item to give me just enough strength to increase my attack modifier." Which is really my other problem with this - it isn't really an interesting custom item, it's just an attempt to get bigger numbers for less money.

[redking]

When creating items, you are supposed to look at how other items are created. Almost all are in +2 increments, and when they are not, there is a specific reason for it.

[Segev]

When creating items, you are supposed to look at how other items are created. Almost all are in +2 increments, and when they are not, there is a specific reason for it.

Except... "almost all" ... aren't. There are 30 different tomes, 15 of which are odd-valued. There are 15 different "wearable" stat-boosting items printed. Tomes clearly aren't in +2 increments, and there are more of them (if only because they have the odd values).

The reason the +2/+4/+6 are printed is explained and understood. The reasoning is also not sound.




As to the fighter with 15 strength deciding he only needs the +1 bracelet of half-ogre strength instead of the +2 gauntlets of ogre strength, maybe he just tried both on and determined that the latter didn't seem to "do enough" more compared to the former for him to justify spending that much gold on it.

[redking]

Except... "almost all" ... aren't. There are 30 different tomes, 15 of which are odd-valued. There are 15 different "wearable" stat-boosting items printed. Tomes clearly aren't in +2 increments, and there are more of them (if only because they have the odd values).

Inherent bonus max out at 5. That's a very good reason why a time can be in +1 increments.


As to the fighter with 15 strength deciding he only needs the +1 bracelet of half-ogre strength instead of the +2 gauntlets of ogre strength, maybe he just tried both on and determined that the latter didn't seem to "do enough" more compared to the former for him to justify spending that much gold on it.

The designers wanted ability score enhancing magical items to work for Jon and well as it does for Rob.

[spectralphoenix]

Except... "almost all" ... aren't. There are 30 different tomes, 15 of which are odd-valued. There are 15 different "wearable" stat-boosting items printed. Tomes clearly aren't in +2 increments, and there are more of them (if only because they have the odd values).

There's also various spells, ioun stones, the rod of splendor, belt of dwarvenkind - pretty much anything that provides an enhancement bonus.


As to the fighter with 15 strength deciding he only needs the +1 bracelet of half-ogre strength instead of the +2 gauntlets of ogre strength, maybe he just tried both on and determined that the latter didn't seem to "do enough" more compared to the former for him to justify spending that much gold on it.
Which is why I brought it up in the context of bespoke items. If you can walk into your local MagicMart(R) and try on gauntlets until you find just the right set in the color you like, it's not really a custom one-off.

[Segev]

Inherent bonus max out at 5. That's a very good reason why a time can be in +1 increments.That would be a reason for +1/+3/+5, as well. No +2/+4 tomes at all.




The designers wanted ability score enhancing magical items to work for Jon and well as it does for Rob.Why didn't they want tomes to follow this rule?

And besides, Jon paid more for his bonus than Rob did, but gets the same amount out of it? How is that "working as well?"

[KoDT69]

And besides, Jon paid more for his bonus than Rob did, but gets the same amount out of it? How is that "working as well?"
Because Rob is naturally stronger and can use the lesser item to land at the same strength that Jon needed the big belt to get.

This seems more like a "not all men are created equal," or "life isn't always fair" kinda thing more than an issue with odd stat bonuses on items.

Let's say Brutus Beefcake has an 18 strength, can't quite lift a boulder blocking a cave entrance, but puts on a simple +2 belt of strength and now he's cleared the path. Gibby the Gnome with his 8 strength can put on the same belt and all he gets to do is bowl with a regular bowling ball instead of the 6lb one they keep for children. Same numeric boost, vastly different outcomes.

I think some people are reading too much into the listed items being only even numbers on one type of item. Multiple other types of items are full range examples.

[Jay R]

It's clear that we don't agree, and we're not going to agree. That makes it a DM judgment call. Different DMs will handle it differently, and there's nothing wrong with that.

When I'm the DM, any item found in a treasure, or found for sale, will be a +even item. Players will be able to make or commission others to make +odd items according to the formula of a +n item costs n2 x 1,000 gp.

I also don't allow the discount for common effects given as an option in the Magic Item Compendium. If you add two different abilities to a single item, you will pay the 50% surcharge for the lesser effect.

This is different from how some of you would handle it, and I would have no problem with your different decision if I were playing in your game. Lots of ways work just fine. As long as the campaign as a whole is self-consistent, I can play with pretty much any set of rules.

[Fizban]

Why didn't they want tomes to follow this rule?
Because ability score tomes aren't bonus items. They're literally just Potions of Wish that exceed the normal potion level limits and take a long time to activate. They go in increments of +1 because that's how Wish works. Wish works that way because it was decided that yes you should be able to wish for greater underlying ability, but that it should go in the smallest increments possible- and all castings need to be done at once rather than stacked over time. And since Wish only goes 1 point at a time, it's entirely appropriate for a person sequentially casting it on themselves or an ally to stop at a "bespoke" number as the subject feels themselves cross a threshold of new ability.

For all that Wish/stat tomes keep being mentioned, I found it really weird no one's pointed out how they actually work. Completely different from continual bonus items.


On the question of "Who would buy an odd stat boost item if they have an even stat," I counter with, "Who would buy an even stat boost tome if they have an odd stat?"
Usually no-one who hasn't already got their +6 enhancement item. Once you have that, as long as you know the game will go long enough to get your next ability boost from level-up, there's no reason not to go ahead and use the item if you have it. Or if you're going to be away from shopping for a while, you might as well pre-load that so you'll have it when you're ready for it. The same can apply to an odd enhancement item.


I will state for the record that I support and think it's quite obvious that no, there should never be odd number ability enhancers. I don't recall seeing even a single one published in major 1st party material, the only place I do is in video games and occasional 3rd party material. This was a deliberate choice made and enforced system-wide. You can decide to overrule that, but you need a clear conflict with clear gains.

The only conflict is that players who happen to have an extra point think it should cost for them to get to the next threshold- but why should it cost them less? Did they even "pay" anything for that odd number, or it is just a relic of random rolls, or left over points that weren't quite enough to push a higher ability score even higher so they dumped it into a lower even one? They're already getting a benefit from that odd score in buffer zones/overall capacity to absorb ability damage, and odd scores are further deliberately used as prerequisites in several feats. Most importantly, they are only one ability score increase from getting to that threshold- if you refuse to consider putting those points anywhere but a single stat, that's your own problem.

The clear gain is that some characters, depending on random rolls or point jiggling, can get extra ability modifiers cheaper than others.

And isn't this a game where people like to smugly comment that some elements are deliberate "trap" options, intentionally bad so that people who avoid them are rewarded for character building skill? Does that not mean that someone who ends up with an odd score has only themselves to blame for "wasting" whatever resources or choices led to it? If your game is specifically going to end at a certain level that means you'll be left with level up points leaving a dirty odd ability score, put that last point somewhere else. Or put more effort into obtaining a Wish to even it out.


I expect plenty of tables, as has been mentioned above, won't even notice it. Higher power and higher level games with massive rolled or point buy scores, free or "bought-off" level adjustment, extra casters stacking extra buffs, and so on, will find an extra cheap +1 modifier negligible. But for games that stick to standard ability scores and races and which might even be capped below 10th and will never see a Wish or stat tome, that cheap extra +1 modifier is a lot more significant, and it's something the designers very clearly did not allow. I agree.

[sreservoir]

The only conflict is that players who happen to have an extra point think it should cost for them to get to the next threshold- but why should it cost them less? Did they even "pay" anything for that odd number, or it is just a relic of random rolls, or left over points that weren't quite enough to push a higher ability score even higher so they dumped it into a lower even one.

Yes, they did.

[Rleonardh]

1000
4000
9000
16000
25000
36000

Prices of +stat, if crafting it's half.
Spend 500 for +1, than later spend 2000 to make it +2
Maybe add +2con for 2000 more or 3000gp if you wanna go 50% more.

[KoDT69]

The creators forbid it? Not even. They didn't see a point. Sure I can see that. A +1 stat boost as random loot could be nearly worthless depending on who finds it. A +3 may give a different bonus between characters but still 3 is 3 regardless of how it affects you.
The biggest tell is that there is a formula given for ability scores boosters. The table entry has no mention of "even numbers only" not is there even a footnote to that tune. Maybe they just assumed odd bonuses were so pointless that they didn't need to bring it up, but forbidden it is NOT!
So side note, regardless of how the tomes work... Why are they limited to +5? That's.... ODD ;)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Prices of +stat, if crafting it's half.
Spend 500 for +1, than later spend 2000 to make it +2
Maybe add +2con for 2000 more or 3000gp if you wanna go 50% more.

According to the upgrade rules in MIC (p.233-234) you only pay the difference, not the whole cost for both +1 and +2. So it'd be 500gp for +1 and then 1500gp for +2.
And stat bonuses don't pay the 50% extra if you put them on the right slot since they're classified as common effects. Con goes on throat, waist and torso items.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Well, why not? I will echo that stuff found in relatively random treasure will always be an even increment, but for PCs and special NPCs, sure, why not?

One thing I like to do is that odd enhancements can also be "worn" or "decayed" items, or things that are slowly growing more magical.

+1 also feels fitting for "apprentice work". Baby's first magic item, it's Gauntlets of Half Ogre Strenght.

[tyckspoon]

So side note, regardless of how the tomes work... Why are they limited to +5? That's.... ODD ;)

'cause that's how Wish works. Why does Wish work that way? Why did they pick +5 as the cap for the 'inherent' bonus type? Possibly intended to be the complement to the every-4-levels stat bumps - if you pick the same stat at every opportunity + max out your Inherent bonus, then at level 20 your two +5 odd bonuses sum up to a nice even +10.

[Elkad]

'cause that's how Wish works. Why does Wish work that way? Why did they pick +5 as the cap for the 'inherent' bonus type? Possibly intended to be the complement to the every-4-levels stat bumps - if you pick the same stat at every opportunity + max out your Inherent bonus, then at level 20 your two +5 odd bonuses sum up to a nice even +10.

More likely because that's how the tomes worked in 1st edition.

[Particle_Man]

Both could be true in a way, with the wishes coming first and the matching stat boosts every 4th level coming in with 3rd edition to match the wishes.