Spider-themed dhampir builds

[Greywander]

Dhampir is one of those races I keep coming back to. I just think the spiderclimb trait is interesting, and I find spiders to be fascinating, yet terrifying, so a spider-themed character is one I'd be interested in trying. Here's a few options I've considered, but none of them quite hit the mark for me.

Kensei Monk

The monk's increased speed helps you to better leverage your spiderclimbing, giving you fantastic mobility. We've all seen how quickly spiders can skitter away, so the speed is on point. Kensei does a great job of making the bite attack very effective.

One with the Blade makes the bite count as magical and allows us to spend ki to increase the damage. That latter ability is really useful when you want to use the bite's special ability to heal or enhance an ability check, especially if you get a crit.

Sharpen the Blade is the only way to turn your bite into a +3 weapon, and I think it would actually stack with an Insignia of Claws if you had one, giving you what is essentially a +4 weapon.

Strictly by RAW, the bite doesn't work with Agile Parry since it isn't held. This is an "Ask your DM" thing, as they might let it work. Otherwise, it's probably worth carrying a dagger. Agile Parry doesn't work with the longbow, either, since it specifically requires a melee weapon. Contrast with Defensive Duelist, which only requires a finesse weapon, and thus works with darts.

What I'd probably do is build a longbow kensei and use my spiderclimb ability to stay out of melee, but I could also mix it up in melee with my bite without needing to drop my longbow. This offers a lot of versatility, allowing me to engage enemy mages or archers in melee and then immediately switch back to taking pot shots at enemy bruisers. Piercer could be a good feat here, though monk MADness means we're limited in how many feats we can take.

There is a question of whether I'd be able to use DEX for the bite or if I'd have to use CON. To avoid bogging down the post, I'll put that discussion under a spoiler. This falls strictly into "Ask your DM" territory. If you can't use DEX for the bite, consider using a different melee weapon, and switching to the bite only when below half HP.
I've looked at this and I don't think a settled RAW exists at the moment. This basically hinges on the "instead of Strength" clause in Martial Arts and similar abilities. Here's an argument for each side.

You CAN'T use DEX

Martial Arts allows you to use DEX instead of STR. The bite uses CON, not STR, and therefore doesn't work with this aspect of Martial Arts. This is a pretty straightforward argument.

You CAN use DEX

The assertion here is that the "instead of Strength" clause is not referring to weapons that use STR, but rather to the fact that by default, melee weapons use STR. Notice that the bite specifies that you use CON instead of STR. They could have just said something like, "You use Constitution for the attack and damage rolls with this weapon," but they didn't. This seems to be an affirmation that references to using a different ability score instead of STR are specifically talking about melee weapons using STR by default, rather than that specific weapon using STR.

With this in mind, both DEX and CON are presented as alternative options to the default of using STR. The bite seems to forbid using STR, but there's no indication that it forbids other alternatives to STR. So a monk could use either CON or DEX for the bite.

My main issue with the kensei is that, while it provides great combat support for the bite, it's just not a very thematic fit. Some of the base monk features help, but overall I'm left feeling like the "spider-ness" will have to be expressed in roleplay, not mechanics.

Swarmkeeper Ranger

This one has the opposite problem to the above: it's a great thematic fit, but mechanically it feels like anti-optimization. Case in point, the ranger offers no benefits to the bite that couldn't be applied to stronger weapons, like a rapier or longbow. Wearing medium armor and maxing CON will make me a bit tankier, but even so I feel like it will fall behind other builds that are properly optimized for tanking. And yeah, I don't expect to be perfectly optimized, but if I'm giving something up I'd prefer to get something else in return.

Either I use the bite and be suboptimal (and locked into melee), or I ditch the bite, in which case all dhampir has going for it is the spiderclimbing. The latter option is okay, but rangers get a climb speed at 6th level anyway. It just feels like there's better options on all sides, whether for race or for class. Amazing flavor, cool abilities, lackluster performance.

Plus I'm not super familiar with rangers. Maybe there's some hidden optimization tech I'm overlooking.

Warlock Multiclass

If I want a primarily ranged attacker, then two levels in warlock sets me up pretty well, allowing me to dip where I please to pick up thematic options. That said, I'd probably want to take more than just two levels in warlock, particularly if EB is my bread and butter. One downside of this build is that I'm not sure I'd be able to make the bite attack effective, and certainly not as effective as EB. Even in melee, I might be better off casting EB at disadvantage.

One dip that appeals to me is the Scout rogue. I just think it's really funny I can skitter away as a reaction any time someone gets close to me. It's the perfect time to go up a wall. Plus, Cunning Action gets us nearly as good mobility as the monk.

Swarmkeeper could actually be decent as a dip, and the swarm effects would stack with things like Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar. I'm just not sure that it's worth three levels, and I'd have to be split between WIS, CHA, and CON, not to mention DEX for AC.

Summary

Kensei Monk
+ Melee and ranged
+ Magic bite
+ Greatly increased bite damage, comparable to other weapons
+ Great mobility
- MAD means fewer feats
- Kensei is mechanically strong here, but offers little in thematics

Swarmkeeper Ranger
+ Amazing flavor with swarm
+ Fighting style (Blind Fighting or Archery, depending on if going ranged or melee)
+ Swarmkeeper spells
+ Swim speed
- Little support for bite
- Swarm damage doesn't apply to bite healing/enhancement
- Damage boosts that do apply to healing/enhancement require concentration
- No magic bite
- Mutually exclusive optimization for bite and ranged, pick one
- Only a 5 foot speed bonus
- Anti-optimized; you'd be better off not being a dhampir, or not being a ranger

Warlock Multiclass
+ Solid ranged damage via EB
+ Rogue dips gives mobility boost via Cunning Action
+ Lots of skill proficiencies/expertises
+ Scout allows moving away as a reaction, great for ranged builds
+Swarmkeeper stacks with Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar
+ Lots of room for other dips
- Bite is terrible, ranged only build
- Unclear progression path (as is often the case with multiclass builds)
- Lack of a clear mechanical identity beyond EB spam from the ceiling
- It doesn't matter how many options you have, only which options you take

Hmm, you know, a poison version of something like Booming Blade that was compatible with the bite attack might make the warlock more appealing. I think the bite would still be worse than EB, but it wouldn't be terrible at least. As it is, I'm still inclined toward kensei as the best option. I wonder if it would be worth dipping out of monk at some point? Are there any other options I'm overlooking? What are some other ways I could play into the spider theme?

[Jophiel]

Strictly by RAW, the bite doesn't work with Agile Parry since it isn't held. This is an "Ask your DM" thing, as they might let it work. Otherwise, it's probably worth carrying a dagger.
I could see myself being talked into letting someone use +DEX instead of +CON or a similar tweak but, if you're going to ask me to let you parry attacks with your face, you're gonna have a bad time.

[Greywander]

It's a bit on the anime side, but catching a blade in your teeth isn't unheard of in fiction. It doesn't hurt to ask, at least. To me, I think the greater concern is whether or not it's mechanically balanced, and then we'll worry about how we fluff it. I think Agile Parry is kind of badly designed, since it encourages the kensei to not do the one thing they're designed to do better than other monks, but that's a whole other discussion.

[follacchioso]

What about a classic Rogue?

- There are no bonuses to base speed, but Cunning Action allows you to dash as a BA. You are not particularly faster than other characters, but you can dash away quickly if there is a need.
- Expertise in Stealth will allow you to hide in the shadows. The dhampir's enhanced movement gives you an edge over other races, as it allows you to find more places to hide.
- Expertise in Athletics would help you to grapple people and move them to the roof if this is something you want to invest in.
- Arcane Tricksters get a bunch of spells that could be flavored as Spider abilities, like Charm, Disguise Self, Web, Sleep...
- Assassins capitalize on the "hiding in the shadow - ambushing the enemy" theme.
- Scouts can climb up a wall when an enemy gets too close, moving out of reach.
- The Poisoner skill is slightly better on you than other builds, because you use fewer ammunitions.

You don't get many synergies with the bite attack, which is a shame, as you miss out on the advantage when you are below half hit points. But it will still be a way to heal in case of an emergency.

[werescythe]

I could see myself being talked into letting someone use +DEX instead of +CON or a similar tweak but, if you're going to ask me to let you parry attacks with your face, you're gonna have a bad time.

I don't know. I've seen a few shows/anime where a characrer catches a blade or bullet with their teeth, so... Lol. XD

[Damon_Tor]

At least one level in barbarian is a good idea: your con is your primary attack score, and barbarians let you add it to your AC as well.

[Psyren]

Drow can be pretty spider-themed too but anyway:

1) Remember that dhampir gets more than bite + spiderclimb, they also get the following from their pre-lineage race: any flying or swimming speeds, and any skill proficiencies. That's not much if you start as a human, but you can start as e.g. a Half-Elf Dhampir instead and get two free skills, or a Sea Elf Dhampir for a swim speed + free Perception. You even get the floating ASIs even if you started as a PHB race that doesn't have them yet.

2) I consider dhampir monk a bit redundant since they can eventually run up walls, but it's not a bad option.

3) Seconding Rogue (Scout as you mentioned or AT are both great options.)

[togapika]

What about a Barbarian? You could do Beast Barbarian and get "claws" except as like spider stabby mandibles, or Totem Warrior and name the spirits that you get Spider spirits instead of whatever they are normally called, and increasing CON makes your bite better and gives you better AC.

[Unoriginal]

A Dhampir who can summon creatures can bite their own summons to heal.

That could be fun for a spider-themed build.

[da newt]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24890247&postcount=831

There are some worthwhile themes in Ludic's Demon Web Spider ...

[Greywander]

Rogue would definitely be a great option if you could Sneak Attack with the bite. Though I suppose if I'm considering a warlock build, which can't make effective use of the bite either, then rogue should be equally acceptable. I understand why the bite doesn't work with Sneak Attack (it would make the heal/enhancement really crazy), but I'm still sad.

The Way of the Demonweb Spider build is interesting, but doesn't seem like a great fit for a dhampir. Elven Accuracy seems to be pulling a lot of weight there, and without the same bite support as the Kensei, we'd be better off using whatever kind of magic weapon we could find.

It does peeve me a little just how well the Kensei, out of all subclasses, seems to support the bite attack. Like, the whole point of the point of the Kensei is to be a weapon master, and yet they're the best suited to not using a weapon and relying solely on their bite. And you'd think the dhampir would be a great fit for something like a Shadow monk, but while it's a fine combo, there's nothing especially synergistic.

TBH, this might be a situation where homebrew is the best solution. I can't help but feel like even just changing the bite to be an unarmed strike would fix a lot of issues with it. Namely, now it works with Unarmed Fighting, allowing non-monks to get better mileage out of it, and monks can now use it with their BA attacks while using a magic weapon for their Attack action attacks. But it seems like they went out of their way to make it count as a weapon; anyone know why?


1) Remember that dhampir gets more than bite + spiderclimb, they also get the following from their pre-lineage race: any flying or swimming speeds, and any skill proficiencies. That's not much if you start as a human, but you can start as e.g. a Half-Elf Dhampir instead and get two free skills, or a Sea Elf Dhampir for a swim speed + free Perception. You even get the floating ASIs even if you started as a PHB race that doesn't have them yet.

2) I consider dhampir monk a bit redundant since they can eventually run up walls, but it's not a bad option.
Yeah, part of the problem is that if I can't find a way to leverage the bite, it does kind of feel like spiderclimb is the only racial trait I'm getting. But two skills is still pretty useful. But at some point you have to consider that you could just be a reborn instead. Especially, as you say, since monks can already run up walls. Though I don't think monks can hang out on walls, or run across ceilings, so spiderclimb is still useful for that.

Technically by RAW you can't choose a "previous race" if you take dhampir at character creation; you have to start as that race and then become a dhampir during play. Which is dumb, so I'd recommend asking your DM if you can choose a previous race anyway. If they allow it, then there's a clear winner. Dhampirs already get a climb speed, so you don't need that. A fly speed would render your spiderclimb ability mostly redundant, and again, at that point you might as well play a reborn. So what we're really interested in is a swim speed. And it just so happens that lizardfolk give two skills and a swim speed, so it's a strict upgrade over the default option of two skills. Volo's lizardfolk have a swim speed of 30 feet, but MotM lizardfolk have a swim speed equal to their walk speed. Dhampirs have a walk speed of 35 feet, so you want the MotM lizardfolk.

Last time I pointed this combo out, some people accused me of trying to "game the system". But first of all, the DM has to approve the character anyway; it's not like this is a video game where you can sneak in a technically legal character with a broken combo. Also, D&D isn't competitive, so all this is doing is making my character a greater asset to my team. Finally, it's not even that strong of an upgrade; you can already swim at half speed anyway, so all this is really doing is allowing me to swim at full speed and ignore some of the penalties for being underwater. Not needing to breathe is also already baked into the dhampir.

I really like this combination because it lets you go a lot of places while still giving you some limitations. I think people overestimate how strong flight is, but I can't deny that it's kind of boring. Anyway, that ability to go a lot of places is one of the reasons I want a high mobility character. It would be great for a grappler, and that could still kind of fit the spider theme if you were going for more of a beefy tarantula type, but that wasn't really what I was looking for.

Another interesting combo is that you can make your dhampir small (even if your previous race was not) and pick up Squat Nimbleness. This gives you a 40 foot base speed, which can then be boosted to 50 with Mobile. This would be a pretty nice combo on perhaps a fighter with the feat budget for it. Maybe a Rune Knight grappler, particularly since Giant's Might just sets your size to large, even if you are a small race. Grab someone and run up a wall and drop them or into the water to drown them.

[diplomancer]

My favourite dhampir build is a Rune Knight; grab two enemies, drag them up a wall, and bite away at them; depending on the situation, drop them at the end of the round so they take fall damage and get prone.

Possible dips:
Barbarian 1 for Unarmoured AC, and Rage on the combats you're not using Giant's Might
Rogue 2, for expertise Athletics and Cunning Action so you can drag them further up the walls

[Psyren]

I think a lizardfolk Dhampir is an awesome idea, especially since they theoretically make it hard to tell you're a Dhampir at all.

[Greywander]

Well, I decided to try and whip up a homebrew monk subclass, and ironically it gains very little from being a dhampir. You can check it out here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?647841-Monk-Way-of-the-Spider-subclass

For not-homebrew, I'm still torn between kensei for combat effectiveness (particularly with the bite) and shadow monk for flavorful abilities. I might give rogue a look at some point if I'm accepting not being able to use the bite.

[diplomancer]

Another nice synergy I just noted with the Rune Knight; i believe Giant's Might is one of the few ways I know to increase damage that actually works with the Bite.

[Skrum]

You are treading in dangerous waters; many have gone mad trying to make a dhampir's bite worth something. Sometimes, if you listen very closely, you can hear the echo's of the developer's laughter as they watch yet another player drive themselves to ruin attempting to make a build around it.

Yeah dhampir bite is bad. It was flat-out designed to not be very good. The wording, basing it on Con; they really made sure it wasn't abusable....and by abusable I mean usable.

My recommendation, make a build that gets the flavor you want, and then see if you can fit in *something* that boost the bite even a little. And then use it only at certain, narratively appropriate times. For my dhampir characters, I'll have them bite when certain things happen that causes them to lose control. If they're very hurt, if they get confused, that kinda thing.

Kensai probably comes the closest to "optimizing" the bite, but as you note, it's not particularly spider-like, and you're also a monk, so....

The only other callout I have is BM Fighter. They're very generic, but that might be to your advantage - you can make it spider-like. And maneuvers are untyped damage, so you can add them onto the bite to enhance the healing/effect it has. Off the top of my head, Ambush, Grappling Strike, Bait and Switch, Evasive Footwork, Menacing Attack, and Trip Attack could all work as like cunning, spider-y type moves.