Planar Ally from arcane entry

[Guipqt]

By reading forums and summoner handbooks I see a lot of people recomending thaumaturgist as PrC option for Wizard based builds. However, Thaumaturgist pre-reqs being able to cast Planar Ally spell, wich is only drawn from the cleric spell list. I don't know if i'm missing something or they really forgot about this little big detail.

Well, if i'm not wrong and leveling into Thaumaturgist from an arcane entry is impossible, is there any feat, trick or something legal to get this PrC from wizard?

If not, how badly would be to multi-class Wizard/Archivist than Malconvoker to thaumaturgist?

[RandomPeasant]

I don't see why you would ever multi-class between Wizard and Archivist rather than just being an Archivist in the first place. That said, Arcane Disciple (Summoner) or becoming a Hathran will both give you planar ally as an arcane spellcaster.

[Guipqt]

I don't see why you would ever multi-class between Wizard and Archivist rather than just being an Archivist in the first place. That said, Arcane Disciple (Summoner) or becoming a Hathran will both give you planar ally as an arcane spellcaster.

Because of Wizard Rapid summoning variant and Master Specialist PrC. Being able to cast summon monster at standard speed instead of 1 round action since 1st level is a determinant factor on why wizard summoners are so good.

[Anthrowhale]

Rapid Summoning is pretty nice but many levels of Master Specialist may not be that compelling? For example, you could use Arcane Spellsurge instead of Master Specialist 10.

I've usually seen Wizard-dip-for-Archivist as a vehicle for Uncanny Forethought. For your purpose, it looks like:

Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 4/Thaumaturgist 4/Wild Soul 9

Picking up Arcane Disciple (Summoner, Lust, or Celestia) at level 6 as RandomPeasant suggests might work well.

(Malconvoker is ok, but losing a level of spell advancement is often not worthwhile.)

[Bullet06320]

(Malconvoker is ok, but losing a level of spell advancement is often not worthwhile.)

malconvoker is one of the few thats considered ok to lose a level for spellcasting

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528090-Mastering-the-Malconvoker


There are many advantages to playing a Summoner, but if you are willing to focus completely on summoning - nothing beats a Malconvoker. You may not have the best HP, BAB, AC, or be as good at the other spells - but when it comes to Summoning - you will be king.

Up to the time I looked at the Malconvoker I was of the opinion that you should never consider a PrC that reduces your spellcasting level. The Malconvoker does this at level 1.

However, level one of the Malconvoker gives an extend spell effect on all Summon Monster spells where you summon evil creatures as long as you beat their sense motive with a bluff (free action bluff)

The fourth level of the Malconvoker gives a +2 to damage on all attacks and +2 HP/HD to any evil creatures which were summoned with the first level ability.

The fifth level of Malconvoker adds an extra creature when you summon an evil creature. That's basically a free Twin Spell. If you use a Summon Monster to summon lesser level creatures, it works out closer to an empower spell (still very good).

If you are a Wizard/Cleric who pops off the occasional Summon Monster spell this isnt a worthy trade. If you are a Wizard/Cleric who specializes in Summon Monster spells this is just too good to pass up.


for ways to get Planar Ally on wizard list, refer to this thread
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?454684-Thaumaturgist-amp-Wizard&p=25520712#post25520712


one build ive used succesfully is conjuror specialist wizard with the rapid summoning acf, then master specialist till i qualify for malconvoker, cross classing the bluff skill from the begining, then into thaumaturgist

[RandomPeasant]

Malconvoker is not really worth losing a level of casting. Yes, you get the cool double summon, but so does the guy who's casting higher level summon monster spells than you and picks to summon multiple things off a lower list. It's rather moot though, as if you want to specialize in combat summoning, you should be a Druid with Greenbound Summoning, because that beats the hell out of anything summon monster does.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's rather moot though, as if you want to specialize in combat summoning, you should be a Druid with Greenbound Summoning, because that beats the hell out of anything summon monster does.

From a pure power perspective maybe, but Greenbound is actually too powerful for a lot of tables.
There's a lot of room to play a wizard or cleric summoner, and SM has an entirely different feel to it than SNA does.

A lot of it also depends on what level you play at.
Druid summoners are king at low levels even without Greenbound but really suffer from a lack of variety at higher levels. Elementals work, but you don't really get much beyond that.

Summon Monster on the other hand takes until 3rd or 4th level spells just to get roughly even with baseline SNA, but after that it just gets better and better as you go up the spell levels.
SNA really can't compare to the sheer variety of spell-likes and casting you can grab with SM.

[Anthrowhale]

A minor update---it looks like you can do:

Lesser Aasimar Conjurer[Rapid Summoning] 2/Paragnostic Apostle[Call of Worlds] 1/Master Specialist 4/Thaumaturgist 4/Malconvoker 9

1. Imbued Summoning
3. Spell Focus(Conjuration)
6. Arcane Disciple
9. Summon Elemental
12. Rashemi Elemental Summoning
15. Augment Elemental
18. Extraordinary Concentration (for the elemental monolith)

Which leaves you with:
Summons are a standard action cast (Conjurer 1)
Summons with L3- buff (Imbued Summoning)
Summons Fast Heal 2 (PA 1 @ECL3)
Summons HP += caster level (MS 4 @ECL7)
Summons Str&Con+4 (Thaumaturgist 2 ECL9)
Summon unlimited small-to-large elementals (Summon Elemental ECL9)
Summons x2 duration (Thaumaturgist 3 ECL10)
Summons contingency (Thaumaturgist 4 ECL11)
Summons x2 duration (Malconvoker 1 ECL12)
Summon special air/earth elementals (Rashemi elemental Summoning @ECL12)
Summons Damage&hp/HD+2 (Malconvoker 4 ECL15)
Summon elementals Attack,Damage,hp/HD+2 (Augment Elemental)
Summons +1 evil monster (Malconvoker 5 ECL16)
Summons Will&Resist dispel+2 (Malconvoker 7 ECL18)
Summons Dismiss evil Immediate action (Malconvoker 9 ECL20)

Going into Malconvoker late helps with its drawback, since you lose on spell access at only 3 levels (ECL13, ECL15, ECL17).

[sleepyphoenixx]

12. Rashemi Elemental Summoning
15. Augment Elemental


Rashemi Elemental Summoning and Augment Elemental make no sense on a Malconvoker because your Malconvoker abilities only apply to evil summons.
SNA also gets elementals 1 spell level earlier than SM does, so if that's what you're going for you really should've just been a druid.
I'd suggest Fiendish Summoning Specialist instead. Cloudy Conjuration is also really nice on a summoner, though you'd likely want that as early as possible.

Also delaying Malconvoker that long really hurts the build at lower levels - Master Conjurer and Paragnostic Apostle simply don't add much because your summons will likely run out of duration before running out of hp or benefitting from fast healing. And Thaumaturgist 4 only gives you extend spell and a contingency. it doesn't actually make your summon spells stronger.

Frankly i'd argue that neither Thaumaturgist nor Master Specialist are worth the levels for a conjurer. They simply don't add enough to be worth the investment.
You would probably get more out of just taking 8 more levels in Conjurer if you took Enhanced Summoning in addition to Rapid Summoning, which would also give you Augment Summoning from level 1 and free up two feats (SF:conjuration and Arcane Disciple).

[RandomPeasant]

From a pure power perspective maybe, but Greenbound is actually too powerful for a lot of tables.

Sure, but that's effectively a capitulation that Malconvoker isn't really worth it.


There's a lot of room to play a wizard or cleric summoner, and SM has an entirely different feel to it than SNA does.

True, but I would characterize that difference as summon nature's ally being a combat spell, while summon monster is a utility spell. If you want to pull out random SLAs at combat time, SM is fine. But it's not something you want to rely on in combat, and it takes more effort to get it to decent than it takes to get SNA to nuts.

[Anthrowhale]

Rashemi Elemental Summoning and Augment Elemental make no sense on a Malconvoker because your Malconvoker abilities only apply to evil summons.
It does lacks synergy. Is there a way to change the alignment of summons? That would permit some synergy. Imbued[Sanctum Morality Undone] doesn't quite work since Morality Undone is not a touch spell. Touch of the Blackened Soul makes the summon spell itself evil, but Malconvoker keys off the summons alignment not the summoned alignment. There some optional summons rules which allow you to summon the same creature over and over which might work.

In a choice between sacrificing Thaumaturgist + elemental vs. Malconvoker, losing Malconvoker also seems reasonable. If you take Malconvoker as early as possible then you lose on spell access at L7, L9, L11, L13, L15, and L17 which is fairly painful. Eschewing that for the elemental path would provide all the versatility of SM<n>, but leave you with the ability to Contingent Rashemi Orglash Elemental Monolith when you just want a beat stick. That's plausibly better than anything you can get out of Malconvoker in the beat stick role.

Early access to augment summoning is quite beneficial. Getting that at L1 and the retraining later might be viable.

[sleepyphoenixx]

In a choice between sacrificing Thaumaturgist + elemental vs. Malconvoker, losing Malconvoker also seems reasonable. If you take Malconvoker as early as possible then you lose on spell access at L7, L9, L11, L13, L15, and L17 which is fairly painful. Eschewing that for the elemental path would provide all the versatility of SM<n>, but leave you with the ability to Contingent Rashemi Orglash Elemental Monolith when you just want a beat stick. That's plausibly better than anything you can get out of Malconvoker in the beat stick role.
The problem with that approach is that a druid gets elementals a spell level earlier, with Ashbound on top, casts from a slot another level lower thanks to Ring of the Beast and saves a feat on Imbued Summoning because a Summoner's Totem only works for SNA. While being a dragon.
It's focusing entirely on the weakness of summon monster compared to SNA instead of its strengths.

I feel if you're going to make an arcane summoner - aside from Malconvoker, but clerics arguably do that better - the best option is to focus on what SM does better than SNA.
Summon Monster's big strength is the SLA's of the summons, and you can't really improve those much. Instead you want metamagic reduction to apply empower (for when you summon 1d4+1 from two levels lower, particularly fun with Mustevals or Coure Eladrin) and twin or repeat spell to get more SLA's per summon spell.
That also works much better with Rapid Summonings restriction to a standard action on the first round.


Early access to augment summoning is quite beneficial. Getting that at L1 and the retraining later might be viable.
It only costs you bonus feats which you don't get anyway if you don't take 5 or more wizard levels. If you're dropping Master Specialist and Thaumaturgist and going wizard 10 then yes, i'd retrain it, get Augment Summoning back with Planar Touchstone and take Spontaneous Divination and a bonus feat (or 5 levels of Incantatrix) over a small bonus against dispels and another +2 Str & Con to my summons.

Edit:
It does lacks synergy. Is there a way to change the alignment of summons? That would permit some synergy.
There actually is: Corrupt Summoning (Dr#347), vile feat, requires SF and Augment Summoning and being evil, adds the evil subtype to any creature you summon.
Malconvokers can't be evil though.

[Anthrowhale]

The problem with that approach is that a druid gets elementals a spell level earlier, with Ashbound on top, casts from a slot another level lower thanks to Ring of the Beast and saves a feat on Imbued Summoning because a Summoner's Totem only works for SNA. While being a dragon.
It's focusing entirely on the weakness of summon monster compared to SNA instead of its strengths.

I don't find a 'stay in your lane' argument convincing since limitations on party size often imply a need for one or the other. Druids certainly have far better SNA access (= beefy summons), but the conjurer has better SM access and rapid summoning. In a party without a Druid, a Conjurer who can do drop a beefy combatant seems pretty reasonable. In a party with a druid, you could either leave it to them or play backup. But the existence of a Druid in the party is not a foregone conclusion.

Empower/Maximize appear uninteresting for character development since there are rods for that. Repeat and Twin are compelling, but only if they can be cut to +0 metamagic given summons have a built in ability to approximately duplicate Twin as +1 metamagic.


Edit:
There actually is: Corrupt Summoning (Dr#347), vile feat, requires SF and Augment Summoning and being evil, adds the evil subtype to any creature you summon.
Malconvokers can't be evil though.
Interesting, and close.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I don't find a 'stay in your lane' argument convincing since limitations on party size often imply a need for one or the other. Druids certainly have far better SNA access (= beefy summons), but the conjurer has better SM access and rapid summoning. In a party without a Druid, a Conjurer who can do drop a beefy combatant seems pretty reasonable. In a party with a druid, you could either leave it to them or play backup. But the existence of a Druid in the party is not a foregone conclusion.
It's less "stay in your lane" and more "play to your strengths". SM is worse than SNA at beatsticks. SM is better than SNA at SLA users.
If you're casting SM it makes more sense to improve on that than trying to play catchup doing something the spell isn't as well-suited for.

There's nothing wrong with summoning an elemental when the situation calls for a big beefy beatstick, but spending 2 feats to focus on them when SM offers so many fantastic non-elementals just seems like a waste.

[Anthrowhale]

There's nothing wrong with summoning an elemental when the situation calls for a big beefy beatstick, but spending 2 feats to focus on them when SM offers so many fantastic non-elementals just seems like a waste.

It's possible I don't appreciate Fiendish Summoning Specialist enough. How would you use it? And what would your alt feat #2 be?

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's possible I don't appreciate Fiendish Summoning Specialist enough. How would you use it? And what would your alt feat #2 be?
Basically just pick through FC1 & 2 and the various MM's for evil outsiders (or magical beasts at low levels) that have good stats or cool abilities for their CR.

Some options:
SM 1: Skiurid (MM4)
SM 2: Kython, Broodling (BoVD), Abrian (FF), Flame Snake, Minor (FF), Night Hunter (MoF)
SM 3: Demonet Swarm (MM4)
SM 4: Advespa (MM2)
SM 5: Ekolid (FC1), Joy Stealer (MM4)
SM 6: Amnizu (FC2), Devil, Pain (FC2), Desert Devil (Sand)
SM 7: Dibbuk (FC1)
SM 8: Orthon (FC2), Chasme (FC1)
SM 9: Assassin Devil (FC2), Astral Stalker (MM3), Ayperobos Swarm (FC2)

My alt feat #2 would be Cloudy Conjuration. It can be used both offensively (to lower enemy saves against your summon's SLAs) and defensively (by granting concealment/blocking LoS), doesn't cost you any actions or spell slots and as a specialist conjurer you qualify without needing Spell Focus (since you get Augment Summoning free too).

Uncanny Forethought and Arcane Mastery are also worth considering on any wizard imo.

[Guipqt]

(Malconvoker is ok, but losing a level of spell advancement is often not worthwhile.)

I would'nt actually lose the spell level because my actual PC is Illumian, so it gains +2 caster level, replacing the levels lost on Malc leveling.

The build I thought was Conjurer3> Master Specialist2>Malconvoker5> Master specialist 8, but taking 3 levels in Thaumaturgist makes sense to me. My goal is to make the most optimized malconvoker possible build. When I get to home i'll upload the build for ya to see and judge

[Anthrowhale]

I would'nt actually lose the spell level because my actual PC is Illumian, so it gains +2 caster level, replacing the levels lost on Malc leveling.

Although Illumnian handles the caster level loss, it does not handle the spell advancement loss. Thus, you will gain a new level of spells (and extra spell slots) a level slower for the rest of your career.


The build I thought was Conjurer3> Master Specialist2>Malconvoker5> Master specialist 8, but taking 3 levels in Thaumaturgist makes sense to me. My goal is to make the most optimized malconvoker possible build. When I get to home i'll upload the build for ya to see and judge

Thaumaturgist 4's contingent summons is very good as well. If you connect it to a free action ("Say the world kabama"), then you can start every combat with a zero-action summons. This could even happen before you act with a trigger like "I cast Nerveskitter". Paragnostic Apostle 1 also seems potentially worthwhile. Fast Heal 2 is a modest benefit for a modest investment. I'm more skeptical about the later levels of Master Specialist given Arcane Spellsurge duplicates the effect.

Using ideas from Sleepypheonix, maybe Illumian Conjurer(rapid summoning) 3/Master Specialist 2/Malconvoker 5/Thaumaturgist 4/Master Specialist 5/Paragnostic Apostle 1 with

1. Augment Summoning -> Spell Mastery via PHBII retraining at the end of level 11.
3. Spell Focus(Conjuration)
6. Imbued Summoning
9. Arcane Disciple
12. Uncanny Forethought
15. Fiendish Summoning Specialist
18. Cloudy Conjuration

Then, you'll be able to drop 4 top-level summons per round. Round 1 looks like:
Free action: Contingent conjuration SM (with malconvoker x2)
Standard action: Arcane Spellsurge
Immediate action: Cast SM (with malconvoker x2)

Later rounds look like:
immediate action: Cast SM (with malconvoker x2)
Standard action: Cast SM (with malconvoker x2) with Uncanny Forethought.



SM 1: Skiurid (MM4)
SM 2: Kython, Broodling (BoVD), Abrian (FF), Flame Snake, Minor (FF), Night Hunter (MoF)
SM 3: Demonet Swarm (MM4)
SM 4: Advespa (MM2)
SM 5: Ekolid (FC1), Joy Stealer (MM4)
SM 6: Amnizu (FC2), Devil, Pain (FC2), Desert Devil (Sand)
SM 7: Dibbuk (FC1)
SM 8: Orthon (FC2), Chasme (FC1)
SM 9: Assassin Devil (FC2), Astral Stalker (MM3), Ayperobos Swarm (FC2)

I'm AFB this week, but some of those do look like interesting complements to summons lists.



My alt feat #2 would be Cloudy Conjuration.

It seems ok.


Uncanny Forethought and Arcane Mastery are also worth considering on any wizard imo.
Uncanny Forethought seems compelling given the extra summons per round it allows you to pump out.

[redking]

Malconvoker can be evil. Both the RAW and RAI is that malconvokers must be non-evil when they take the first level of the class. After that, anything goes.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Using ideas from Sleepypheonix, maybe Illumian Conjurer(rapid summoning) 3/Master Specialist 2/Malconvoker 5/Thaumaturgist 4/Master Specialist 5/Paragnostic Apostle 1 with

1. Augment Summoning -> Spell Mastery via PHBII retraining at the end of level 11.
3. Spell Focus(Conjuration)
6. Imbued Summoning
9. Arcane Disciple
12. Uncanny Forethought
15. Fiendish Summoning Specialist
18. Cloudy Conjuration


Since you're taking less than 5 wizard levels you can get Augment Summoning for free instead of Scribe Scroll with the Enhanced Summoning UA variant.
You can spend the saved feat to take Cloudy Conjuration at level 1 instead of 18, when it'll be most useful.

Then you can replace Imbued Summoning with Spell Mastery for Uncanny Forethought.
You don't really have the slots to use it at level 6 and without metamagic reduction 1 summon + 1 spell will always lose out to 1 summon one spell level higher anyway.

For your level 18 feat i'd suggest Arcane Mastery or Craft Contingent Spell.

[Anthrowhale]

...
Good ideas here, and I had a brainstorm. How about:

Illumian Conjurer(rapid summoning, enhanced summoning) 3/Master Specialist 2/Malconvoker 5/Thaumaturgist 4/Master Specialist 5/Loremaster 1 with

Enhanced Summoning: Augment Summoning
1. Cloudy Conjuration
3. Spell Focus(Conjuration)
6. Spell Mastery
9. Arcane Disciple
12. Uncanny Forethought
15. Fiendish Summoning Specialist
18. Imbued Summoning
Loremaster Secret: Sanctum Spell

Sanctum Spell makes 4th level spells 3rd level. Hence, you can use Imbued Summoning[Sanctum Polymorph] which opens up a fantastic can of worms. Consider for example SM IX(Bebilith) transformed into a Kelvezu. More generally you can 'virtually' summon pretty much any creature with <15HD.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Hence, you can use Imbued Summoning[Sanctum Polymorph] which opens up a fantastic can of worms. Consider for example SM IX(Bebilith) transformed into a Kelvezu. More generally you can 'virtually' summon pretty much any creature with <15HD.

You can't actually use Imbued Summoning on SMIX since it's a +1 metamagic and you don't have a reducer.
If you want it in the build i'd try to fit in Metamagic School Focus too so you can actually use it on your highest level summons.
You could drop 2 levels of Master Specialist to get another bonus feat out of Loremaster, which is worth a lot more than the +5 against dispels for your summon spells.

Looks pretty solid otherwise.

[Anthrowhale]

You can't actually use Imbued Summoning on SMIX since it's a +1 metamagic and you don't have a reducer.
If you want it in the build i'd try to fit in Metamagic School Focus too so you can actually use it on your highest level summons.

Hmm, Loremaster only allows one extra feat unfortunately and we forgot its prereqs as well.

With apologies to @Guipqt, it looks like human is needed for the extra feat, which reduces caster level by 1 relative to an Illumian.

Human Conjurer(rapid summoning) 3/Master Specialist 2/Malconvoker 5/Thaumaturgist 4/Master Specialist 5/Loremaster 1

Conjurer 1: Scribe Scroll
Human: Cloudy Conjuration
1. Augmented Summoning -> Retrain into Spell Mastery@12
3. Spell Focus(Conjuration)
6. Imbued Summoning
9. Arcane Disciple
12. Uncanny Forethought
Thaumaturgist 2: Augmented Summoning
15. Metamagic School Focus
Frog God's Fane: Skill Focus(Religion)
18. Sanctum Spell
Loremaster Secret:Fiendish Summoning Specialist

Loremaster secret could give Fiendish Summoning Specialist, Uncanny Forethought, or Metamagic School Focus.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Hmm, Loremaster only allows one extra feat unfortunately and we forgot its prereqs as well.

With apologies to @Guipqt, it looks like human is needed for the extra feat, which reduces caster level by 1 relative to an Illumian.

Human Conjurer(rapid summoning) 3/Master Specialist 2/Malconvoker 5/Thaumaturgist 4/Master Specialist 5/Loremaster 1

Conjurer 1: Scribe Scroll
Human: Cloudy Conjuration
1. Augmented Summoning -> Retrain into Spell Mastery@12
3. Spell Focus(Conjuration)
6. Imbued Summoning
9. Arcane Disciple
12. Uncanny Forethought
Thaumaturgist 2: Augmented Summoning
15. Metamagic School Focus
Frog God's Fane: Skill Focus(Religion)
18. Sanctum Spell
Loremaster Secret:Fiendish Summoning Specialist

Loremaster secret could give Fiendish Summoning Specialist, Uncanny Forethought, or Metamagic School Focus.
You'll never use Imbued Summoning without Metamagic School Focus (or at least you shouldn't, because it's not worth it at +1 spell level), so the two kinda have to go together.
You also forgot that you don't have to spend a feat on Augment Summoning again.

Alternatively just dump Master Specialist and take more wizard levels instead, that'd give you bonus feats too.
It's not like it's doing much for you, the minuscule extra hp and dispel protection aren't worth this much hassle.

Something like this:

Illumian Conjurer (rapid summoning) 5, Malconvoker 5, Thaumaturgist 4, Conjurer 5, Loremaster 1

1: Cloudy Conjuration, Scribe Scroll(B)
3: SF:Conjuration
5: Imbued Summoning(B)
6: Metamagic School Focus
9: Arcane Disciple
12: Spell Mastery, Augment Summoning(B)
15: Uncanny Forethought
18: Sanctum Spell
19: Fiendish Summoning Specialist(B), Skill Focus (religion) (B, Frog God's Fane)
20: free (i suggest retraining Imbued Summoning for Spontaneous Divination and taking IS here)

[Anthrowhale]

...
This ends up with the same caster level (20) as the human build since the loss of master specialist 6 is compensated by Illumian.

You lose ~40 hp (20 each from 2 summons), early access to Augment Summoning, and 5 levels of dispel resist.

You gain 1 free feat slot.

(Minor detail, Fiendish Summoning Specialist isn't a wizard bonus feat.)

Spontaneous divination does not seem worth the trade, but perhaps Invisible Spell? Effectively giving Improved Invisibility to summons helps compensate for their relatively low attack bonus. This could look like:

Illumian Conjurer (rapid summoning) 5, Malconvoker 5, Thaumaturgist 4, Conjurer 5, Loremaster 1

1: Cloudy Conjuration, Scribe Scroll(B)
3: SF:Conjuration
5: Imbued Summoning(B)
6: Metamagic School Focus
9: Arcane Disciple
12: Spell Mastery, Augment Summoning(B)
15: Uncanny Forethought
18: Fiendish Summoning Specialist
19: Sanctum Spell(B), Skill Focus (religion) (B, Frog God's Fane)
20: Invisible Spell

Human for the bonus feat still seems tempting to get Augment Summoning early, then retrain into something else.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Human for the bonus feat still seems tempting to get Augment Summoning early, then retrain into something else.

Just take the Enhanced Summoning ACF at first level and retrain it at level 12 when you pick up Thaumaturgist 2.
You don't have the spell slots for Imbued Summoning at level 5 anyway, it's just the place where it fits into the build.

The 20hp per summon are hardly worth a feat and easily replaced with Ehlonna's Brooch (CC, 350gp) for +1hp/HD. Or a Ring of Mighty Summons (CM, 14k gp) for max hp per HD.
There's also the Worldmeet Glade (CM, 18k gp) magical location for +2hp/hd and +2 to attacks, damage, saves and checks that's exclusive to arcane summoners.

The dispel resistance is just as easily replaced with a Ring of Enduring Arcana which you'll likely want anyway sooner or later to protect your buffs, in addition to any other general CL boosts you pick up.

Invisible Spell is great if your DM allows it to work that way and still plenty useful even if he doesn't.

[Anthrowhale]

I'm convinced except for this.


The dispel resistance is just as easily replaced with a Ring of Enduring Arcana which you'll likely want anyway sooner or later to protect your buffs, in addition to any other general CL boosts you pick up.

It's nice to get dispel resistance +10 or so to near-zero the odds of something being dispelled. At just +4 it's still a weakness, but perhaps an acceptable one.

[RandomPeasant]

I do find it amusing that we've gone from "arcane summoners are reasonable because Greenbound Summoning is OP" to "you should build an arcane summoner that uses Sanctum Spell polymorph to cheat the spell level restriction on Imbued Summoning".

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'm convinced except for this.

It's nice to get dispel resistance +10 or so to near-zero the odds of something being dispelled. At just +4 it's still a weakness, but perhaps an acceptable one.
A bonus feat is nearly always better. Not to mention more universally useful. How often do you even see your summons get targeted by dispels?

You're probably getting CL increases from other sources anyway. Robe and ring of arcane might at least.
Getting +6 or more to your CL isn't exactly difficult and much more useful than just dispel resistance to a small subset of spells, so you'd want to do it anyway.


I do find it amusing that we've gone from "arcane summoners are reasonable because Greenbound Summoning is OP" to "you should build an arcane summoner that uses Sanctum Spell polymorph to cheat the spell level restriction on Imbued Summoning".

I'm honestly not a big fan of Imbued Summoning even with that. Especially on a Malconvoker, since it only applies to one creature unless your DM is generous.
I generally don't have that many excess slots even at high levels and summons do fine without it.
Add the need for a metamagic reducer on top of that when a summoner could easily do without otherwise and it ends up a little too pricy for the benefit you get imo.

If i wanted to abuse metamagic i'd go Conjurer 5/Malconvoker 5/Incantatrix 10 with twin and repeat spell.
Summon from a normal slot in round one, apply repeat and twin with metamagic effect in round two, get 8 summons from one spell slot.

[Anthrowhale]

I'm honestly not a big fan of Imbued Summoning even with that.

Although it doesn't increase power much, the flexibility seems nice and it's a productive summoning-related use of lower level slots.

Polymorph gives any SLA in any environment with any movement mode. Other options: Heroics (= any fighter feat), Improved Mage Armor (=+8 force armor), Mountain Stance (summons are BFC), Shadow Phase (= 20% miss even vs. trueseeing).

In terms of power, Polymorph[War Troll] from a summoned Fiendish Colossal Monstrous Spider with a +5 magic weapon has a +38 attack with a DC 27 daze rider. That's probably good enough to be a stand-in for a fighter type.

[Guipqt]

As I promised, this currently is my character, wich I'd like to take 3-4 levels on Thaumaturgist.

As I remember from this thread, the only way to get planar ally on this build is talking to the DM and asking for him to concede via Expanded Spellbook From master Specialist, or am I missing something?

***FEATS***

flaw01 -------------- Improved Initiative
Flaw02 -------------- Spell Focus(conj)
Lv01(Enh.Summon) ---- Augment Summoning*
Lv01 ---------------- Cloudy Conjuration
Lv03 ---------------- Metamagic School Focus
Lv04(M.SPEC) -------- Skill Focus (Spellcraft)*
Lv06 ---------------- Extend Spell
Lv08(Malc) ---------- Skill Focus (Bluff)*
Lv09 ---------------- Quicken Spell
Lv11(M.SPEC) -------- Greater Spell Focus (Conj)*
Lv12 ---------------- Demon Mastery
Lv15 ---------------- Imbued Summoning
Lv18 ---------------- Sculpt Spell

***CHARACTER CLASS ADVANCEMENT***

WIZARD SCHOOL SPECIALIZATION (Conjuration) (Ban schools: Illusion and Evocation)
-SPECIALIST VARIANT: CONJURER (Rapid summoning; Enhanced summoning)
-ALTERNATIVE CLASS: FOCUSED SPECIALIST (Ban school: Necromancy)
LVL | BBA | For | Ref | Von | Class Features
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Enhanced Summoning, Rapid Summoning,
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3
MASTER SPECIALIST - PRESTIGE CLASS [Complete Mage, pg.70]
LVL | BBA | For | Ref | Von | Class Features
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Expanded spellbook
MALCONVOKER - PRESTIGE CLASS [Complete Scoundrel, pg. 48]
LVL | BBA | For | Ref | Von | Class Features
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Deceptive summons, unrestricted conjuration
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Planar binding
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Skill Focus (Bluff)
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Deceptive summons (Fury)
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Fiendish legion
MASTER SPECIALIST - PRESTIGE CLASS [Complete Mage, pg.70]
LVL | BBA | For | Ref | Von | Class Features
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Greater Spell Focus
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Minor School Esoterica
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Expanded spellbook
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Caster level increase +1
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 Moderate School Esoterica
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Expanded spellbook
9th +4 +3 +3 +6 Caster level increase +2
10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Major School Esoterica
MALCONVOKER - PRESTIGE CLASS [Complete Scoundrel, pg. 48]
LVL | BBA | For | Ref | Von | Class Features
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Deceitful bargaining
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 Deceptive summons (resistance)

***EQUIPMENTS***

1x Admiral's Bicorne [Stormwrack, pg. 131]
1x Ring of Mighty Summons [Complete Mage, pg.127]
1x Sandals of the Vagabond [Complete Champion, pg.142]
1x Choker of Eloquence, Greater [Complete Adventurer, pg.132]
1x Circlet of Persuasion [Dungeon Master's Guide, p.252]
1x Shadow Cloak [Drow of the Underdark, pg.101]
2x Glyph Seal [Magic Item Compendium, pg.161]
1x Rod of Extend, Lesser [Dungeon Master's Guide, pg.236]
1x Ring (+5 bluff/+5 Spellcraft)

[Guipqt]

Some options:
SM 1: Skiurid (MM4)
SM 2: Kython, Broodling (BoVD), Abrian (FF), Flame Snake, Minor (FF), Night Hunter (MoF)
SM 3: Demonet Swarm (MM4)
SM 4: Advespa (MM2)
SM 5: Ekolid (FC1), Joy Stealer (MM4)
SM 6: Amnizu (FC2), Devil, Pain (FC2), Desert Devil (Sand)
SM 7: Dibbuk (FC1)
SM 8: Orthon (FC2), Chasme (FC1)
SM 9: Assassin Devil (FC2), Astral Stalker (MM3), Ayperobos Swarm (FC2)

My options were:

SM1: Fiendish Corollax [Monster Manual II]
SM2: Pseudodragon, troglodyte zombie, WindRazor
SM3: Fiendish Fleshraker [Monster Manual III]
SM4: Brain in a jar [Libris Mortis]
SM5: Abishai, Black / SMILODON (SABER-TOOTHED TIGER)
SM6: Pain Devil [Fiendish Codex II]
SM7: Abishai, Blue

[Anthrowhale]

WRT Planar Ally, you could take a Arcane Disciple.

If I understand correctly, you have a caster level of 22 for conjurations or 23 for summoning demons. This becomes 29 or 30 w.r.t. dispel magic. That's quite good w.r.t. dispel resistance and you could increase it by 4 with a ring of enduring arcana if desired.

You can also drop 2 summons per round since the major school esoterica 'can' be used.

But why Sculpt Spell? And why Quicken Spell?

[pabelfly]

Check out this thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646021-Ways-to-Expand-a-Spell-List

I'd agree with going with the Arcane Disciple feat. It's just one feat and you can get a bunch of off-list spells from Cleric. The domains you want are Celestial, Lust, or Summoner domains. There are other ways to do it though, so have a look through yourself.

[Guipqt]

WRT Planar Ally, you could take a Arcane Disciple.

Oh! Now I see! Arcane Disciple into summoner domain fits perfectly! It even adds +2 Caster Level when summoning/calling. It's great!


If I understand correctly, you have a caster level of 22 for conjurations or 23 for summoning demons. This becomes 29 or 30 w.r.t. dispel magic. That's quite good w.r.t. dispel resistance and you could increase it by 4 with a ring of enduring arcana if desired.

Yeah, that's awesome. But unfortunately i'll have to change it.. Adding 3-4 levels from thaumaturgist won't allow me to get all 10 levels from MS for major esoterica... :(


But why Sculpt Spell? And why Quicken Spell?

Because with Sculpt Spell I can reshape the mists/fogs I conjure, controlling better the field. But that's situational and I added in a bit of a hurry XD

And quicken Spell altogether with Metamagic School Focus allows me to summon a monster in the same round that I conjure a fog, darkness or something in a "free" way (3x/day).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Because with Sculpt Spell I can reshape the mists/fogs I conjure, controlling better the field. But that's situational and I added in a bit of a hurry XD
Sculpt Spell is great, but you can probably get by with a metamagic rod (MIC).
The lesser is a steal and the normal one is affordable at the levels you need it, which should cover most of your BFC spells.

A lesser rod of sculpt, extend, and chain are on my shopping list pretty much every time i play a caster.


And quicken Spell altogether with Metamagic School Focus allows me to summon a monster in the same round that I conjure a fog, darkness or something in a "free" way (3x/day).

Take a look at the Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) and Aurial Sapphire/Pearl of the Waves (CC). Between those you can usually cover quicken pretty well without taking it as a feat.
There's also the Belt of the Reinforced Form (DotU) which lets you quicken a transmutation spell on yourself 1/day and metamagic rods (though those are expensive).

If you have money left over the Worldmeet Glade magical location (CM) is a must-have for any arcane summoner.
The Robe of Mysterious Conjuration (MIC) is also worth considering - you can already summon as a standard action, but with the robe your summons are not restricted to a standard action and can full attack right after being summoned. Good for Malconvokers since a lot of strong melee demons don't get pounce.

[Guipqt]

The Robe of Mysterious Conjuration (MIC) is also worth considering - you can already summon as a standard action, but with the robe your summons are not restricted to a standard action and can full attack right after being summoned. Good for Malconvokers since a lot of strong melee demons don't get pounce.

IMO Shadow Cloak is a better option than this robe(wich is great) for this equipment slot. I think having this emergency escape adds more to the build than focusing completely into summoning and lacking defensive plans.

Sculpt and Imbued spell are not that necessary. I added those in the lack of better options, but I'm totally oppened for suggestions.

As for the suggested itens, thank you a lot! But wich feats would you suggest taking instead of those in case I take these itens? Honestlty I don't think there are much better options...

Updated build:

Wizard 5 (rapid summoning)> Master Specialist 2 > Thaumaturgist 3> Malconvoker 5 = Total 15

Feats:

flaw01 -------------- Improved Initiative [Player's Handbook, pg.96]
Flaw02 -------------- Spell Focus(conj) [Player's Handbook, pg.100]
Lv01(Human) --------- Fiendish Summoning Specialist [Planar Handbook, p. 39]
Lv01 ---------------- Cloudy Conjuration [Complete Mage, pg.40]
Lv03 ---------------- Metamagic School Focus [Complete Mage, pg.45]
LV05 (Wiz.)---------- Quicken Spell [Player's Handbook, pg.98]
Lv06 ---------------- Arcane Disciple [Complete Divine, pg.79]
LV09 ---------------- Extend Spell [Player's Handbook, pg.94]
LV09 (Thau.)--------- Augment Summoning [Player's Handbook, pg.89]
Lv12 ---------------- Demon Mastery [Fiendish Codex I, pg.85]
Lv13(Malc) ---------- Skill Focus (Bluff)* [Player's Handbook, pg.100]
LV15
LV18

I removed the enhanced summoning variant to get it by Thaumaturgist. This way I could get the Lv5 Wizard bonus feat and Scribe Scroll Feature, thus optimizing the overall feat picking and progression.
I Also swapped the race from Illumian to human because it would give an extra feat for Fiendish Summoning Specialist, wich would add a lot more from the beggining instead for the late levels. The "Krau" Illumian sigil loss would make me lose 2 bonus caster levels, but adding arcane disciple (Summoning domain) gives me the 2 levels back (when summoning/calling) (wich is the purpose of this build), so it doesn't actually hurt.

One final question : Would Practiced Spellcaster give the lost caster level from Malconvoker back?

[Guipqt]

Thaumaturgist 4's contingent summons is very good as well. If you connect it to a free action ("Say the world kabama"), then you can start every combat with a zero-action summons. This could even happen before you act with a trigger like "I cast Nerveskitter".
.

Quick question: does it have any uses per day restriction?
The only restriction written is: "A thaumaturgist can have only one contingent conjuration active at a time".

So, until the summoned creatures vanishes or are killed, I cant use this feature, but as soon as they're gone I can use it again?? Does spell slotment works? Or does'nt?

[Anthrowhale]

Quick question: does it have any uses per day restriction?
Nope.


So, until the summoned creatures vanishes or are killed, I cant use this feature, but as soon as they're gone I can use it again?? Does spell slotment works? Or does'nt?
My understanding is that you use a spell slot each time you set it up with a 10 minute setup as per the contingency spell.

However, there's an elegance that I came to appreciate about your earlier Malcon/Master Specialist build---Master Specialist 10's Major School Esoterica is optional. Thus, in every round you can summon twice: as a standard action and as a swift action. This eliminates the need for Spell Mastery + Uncanny Forethought + Arcane Spellsurge (a powerful general purpose tool) + Contingent Conjuration to achieve a similar effect. Thus, I actually like the Malconvoker 7/Master Specialist 10 build more. It does the job more cleanly and the ancillary benefits probably outweigh a free extend spell from Thaumaturgist.

W.r.t. Illumian, you don't lose 2 caster levels, since the caster level is capped by character level. Given that Malconvoker leaves you 1 down, you only lose 1 caster level by shifting away from Illumian. And yes, Practiced Spellcaster has the same effect.

[Guipqt]

Nope.

My understanding is that you use a spell slot each time you set it up with a 10 minute setup as per the contingency spell.

That’s actually better than quicken spell, since theres no level inscrease and its even faster. Actually broken IMO


However, there's an elegance that I came to appreciate about your earlier Malcon/Master Specialist build---Master Specialist 10's Major School Esoterica is optional. Thus, in every round you can summon twice: as a standard action and as a swift action. This eliminates the need for Spell Mastery + Uncanny Forethought + Arcane Spellsurge (a powerful general purpose tool) + Contingent Conjuration to achieve a similar effect. Thus, I actually like the Malconvoker 7/Master Specialist 10 build more. It does the job more cleanly and the ancillary benefits probably outweigh a free extend spell from Thaumaturgist.

Yes, thats what I thought when I built it, but now I’m not so sure because it takes 10 full levels from MS, and the reward isnt that great since major esotérica can only be used 2x/day. Moreover, u cant take the free extend spell from Thau.,neither the contingent spell.


W.r.t. Illumian, you don't lose 2 caster levels, since the caster level is capped by character level. Given that Malconvoker leaves you 1 down, you only lose 1 caster level by shifting away from Illumian. And yes, Practiced Spellcaster has the same effect.

Yes but the summoning domain has the same effect of the illumian racial for summon/calling purposes

[Anthrowhale]

That’s actually better than quicken spell, since theres no level inscrease and its even faster. Actually broken IMO
Vanilla wizards could do something like contingent[celerity] with a trigger of 'on cast nerveskitter' which is in some ways better than contingent conjuration (since you can do _anything_) and in some ways worse (you lose an L6 spell slot), so I'd rate it as similar overall.

So, it's certainly strong, but not overwhelming compared to a vanilla wizard. Of course, a vanilla wizard played well can break many tables, so you should choose what's appropriate for your context.


major esotérica can only be used 2x/day.

Ah, I had missed this. Yeah, back to Thau.


Yes but the summoning domain has the same effect of the illumian racial for summon/calling purposes

Actually better, since Summoner domain can boost caster level above your character level.

[Guipqt]

and in some ways worse (you lose an L6 spell slot), so I'd rate it as similar overall. level.

Wait, sorry for my stupidity but could you explain contingent conjuration again? After all I thought it would Take spell slots to prepare


Actually better, since Summoner domain can boost caster level above your character level.
Yes, but maybe having stupid caster levels arent worth it, depends on the DM motivation... I'll try to keep as illumian and take this feat to see how it fits on the build and then submit here

[Anthrowhale]

Wait, sorry for my stupidity but could you explain contingent conjuration again? After all I thought it would Take spell slots to prepare
It's a question of how many. The Contingency spell requires an L6 spell slot and the slot of whatever spell you are making contingent. Contingent Conjuration just requires the spell slot of the spell you are making contingent.

[Guipqt]

Race: Human

RACIAL TRAITS:
Humanoid (Human)
Space: 5 feet
Reach: 5 feet
Base Speed: Land 30ft
1 extra feat at 1st level
Languages: Common, Infernal, Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic, Ignan
4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.

================================================== ===================
***TEMPLATE***
Magic Blooded [Dragon Magazine #306] [Updated Version]
- Magic-Blooded people are little different from others of their kind, though they
tend to be a little more flighty and fickle. They have an innate sense for the
arcane energy that flows around them, and thus almost always become some kind of
spontaneous arcane caster.

- +2 Intelligence -2 Strenght
================================================== ===================
***ATRIBUTES***
LV1 STATUS | Bonus | Total
STR-08 (-2) 06
DEX-10 10
CON-12 12
INT-18 (+2) 20
WIS-10 10
CHA-12 12

Distributed points: 28
================================================== ===================
***FLAWS***
LOUD:
You are loud in some fashion:
Perhaps you can't help but
speak your thoughts aloud,
or maybe you are heavy-footed.
Effect: You suffer a -3 penalty to
Move Silently and Hide skill checks.

NOTICEABLE:
You are more apparent and easily
distinguished from other people.
Effect: You take a –3 penalty in Hide
and Disguise checks.
================================================== ===================
***FEATS***
flaw01 -------------- Improved Initiative [Player's Handbook, pg.96]
Flaw02 -------------- Spell Focus(Conj.) [Player's Handbook, pg.100]
Lv01(Human) --------- Fiendish Summoning Specialist* [Planar Handbook, pg.39]
Lv01(Enh.Sum.) ------ Augment Summoning* [Player's Handbook, pg.189]
Lv01 ---------------- Cloudy Conjuration [Complete Mage, pg.40]
Lv03 ---------------- Arcane Thesis (Sum. Mon) [Player's Handbook II, pg.74]
Lv04(M.SPEC) -------- Skill Focus (Spellcraft)* [Player's Handbook, pg.100]
Lv06 ---------------- Extend Spell [Player's Handbook, pg.94]
Lv08(Malc) ---------- Skill Focus (Bluff)* [Player's Handbook, pg.100]
LV09 ---------------- Arcane Disciple [Complete Divine, pg.79]
LV12 (Thau.)--------- Augment Summoning*° [Player's Handbook, pg.89]
Lv12 ---------------- Imbued Summoning
LV15 ----------------
LV18 ----------------

*- Bonus Feat
°- Use retraining rule into another feat
================================================== ===================

WIZARD SCHOOL SPECIALIZATION (Conjuration) (Ban schools: Illusion and Evocation) [Player's Handbook, pg.55]
- SPECIALIST VARIANT: CONJURER (Rapid summoning, Enhanced summoning) [Unearthed Arcana, pg.60]
- ALTERNATIVE CLASS FEATURE: FOCUSED SPECIALIST (Ban school: Necromancy) [Complete Mage, pg.34]
- ALTERNATIVE CLASS FEATURE: DOMAIN GRANTED POWER (Baator Domain) [Complete Champion pg.52]
LVL | BBA | For | Ref | Von | Class Features
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Rapid Summoning, Augment Summoning
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3
MASTER SPECIALIST - PRESTIGE CLASS [Complete Mage, pg.70]
LVL | BBA | For | Ref | Von | Class Features
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Expanded spellbook
MALCONVOKER - PRESTIGE CLASS [Complete Scoundrel, pg. 48]
LVL | BBA | For | Ref | Von | Class Features
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Deceptive summons, unrestricted conjuration
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Planar binding
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Skill Focus (Bluff)
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Deceptive summons (Fury)
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Fiendish legion
THAUMATURGIST - PRESTIGE CLASS
LVL | BBA | For | Ref | Von | Class Features
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Improved ally
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Augment Summoning
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Extended summoning
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Contingent conjuration
MALCONVOKER - PRESTIGE CLASS [Complete Scoundrel, pg. 48]
LVL | BBA | For | Ref | Von | Class Features
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Deceitful bargaining
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 Deceptive summons (resistance)
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Improved calling
MASTER SPECIALIST - PRESTIGE CLASS [Complete Mage, pg.70]
LVL | BBA | For | Ref | Von | Class Features
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Greater Spell Focus
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Minor school esoterica
PARAGNOSTIC APOSTLE - PRESTIGE CLASS [(Complete Champion pg.94]
LVL | BBA | For | Ref | Von | Class Features
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Holy texts, knowledge is power (Call of Worlds), lore
================================================== ===================

Fiendish Summoning Specialist added monsters:
SM1: Fiendish Corollax [Monster Manual II]
SM2: Pseudodragon/ troglodyte zombie/ WindRazor
SM3: Fiendish Fleshraker [Monster Manual III]
SM4: Brain in a jar [Libris Mortis]
SM5:Abishai, Black / SMILODON (SABER-TOOTHED TIGER)
SM6:Pain Devil [Fiendish Codex II]
SM7:Abishai, Blue
SM8:Troll Bladerager
SM9:Pleasure Devil, Spell Weaver
================================================== ===================

Strengths:
- Able to extend summon monster spells x4 conj. level (thau+malc+ext spell)
- Able to double the number of any evil aligned summoned monster
- Able to cast any summon monster as contingent spell, meaning that prepared contingent summon monster spells are now "immediate actions" (You can speak freely on enemys turn)
- Able to use extend spell and imbued spell freely on summon monster spell, since arcane thesis reduces cost level by 1
- Able to cast a total of 6 spells/day (3 conj + 3 Any)
- Bluff is now a class skill (Baator Domain ACF). Requires to be evil, but fits perfectly fluffwise speaking. If the DM does'nt allow, get trickery domain.
- Summoned Monsters have fast healing ability

Considerations:
I decided to go malconvoker instead taking 8 levels on master specialist because it's cooler to call a Balor than having your caster level increased. But in terms of summon monster spell, master specialist route is better.

[Anthrowhale]

A few comments:

a) I believe Magic-blooded is Wis-2,Cha+2 rather than Str-2,Int+2. There are a couple other ways to get an int bonus with a bonus feat. For example, an elf can pick up a level of Olin Gisir and a level of Loremaster for 2 bonus feats. Or, if you want to sacrifice the bonus feat, you could be a primordial half giant using the racial class in the appendix of Complete Psionics for the first level, and then switching out of it at later levels (check with your DM if that's ok) to get a +4 Int modifier.
b) Arcane Thesis applies to a specific spell only, rather than a set of spells. Thus, you would have to apply it to "summon monster III", which would get old quickly. Overall, Metamagic School focus seems superior.
c) Spell Mastery + Uncanny Forethought + Arcane Spellsurge still seems compelling in terms of providing an extra summon action / round.
d) Malconvoker requires "any nonevil" alignment for entry.
e) Invisible Spell on summons remains a pretty powerful effect. (If you are discarding it because it's overpowered for your table that's fine.)
f) I'm still a bit enchanted by Imbued Summoning Sanctum Polymorph. The sheer versatility that adds to summons is impressive. Maybe this is overpowered also? Incidentally, Eye of Power has the same L3 limit which you can push to normally-L4 spells via Sanctum Spells.
g) Extend Spell is pretty easily available from a rods, which are reasonably cheap, potentially freeing up a slot you could use elsewhere.

[Bullet06320]

***TEMPLATE***
Magic Blooded [Dragon Magazine #306] [Updated Version]
- Magic-Blooded people are little different from others of their kind, though they
tend to be a little more flighty and fickle. They have an innate sense for the
arcane energy that flows around them, and thus almost always become some kind of
spontaneous arcane caster.

- +2 Intelligence -2 Strenght


where are you getting updated version from?

the template on page 64 in dragon 306 gives you +2 cha and -2 wis

which is not bad for a malconvoker, the cha bonus helps you bluff skill when negotiating for planar binding and the other uses with malconvoker, and -2 wis doesnt hurt a lot as you get good wisdom save bonus with caster classes

[Guipqt]

where are you getting updated version from?

the template on page 64 in dragon 306 gives you +2 cha and -2 wis

which is not bad for a malconvoker, the cha bonus helps you bluff skill when negotiating for planar binding and the other uses with malconvoker, and -2 wis doesnt hurt a lot as you get good wisdom save bonus with caster classes

I updated it XD
Templates are, IMO, a bit more personal than the rest of classes, races, and other mechanical stuff. I just picked this existing template and twisted just a little bit. I just need to remember to change the flavor when I actually go play.

[Guipqt]

A few comments:

a) I believe Magic-blooded is Wis-2,Cha+2 rather than Str-2,Int+2. There are a couple other ways to get an int bonus with a bonus feat. For example, an elf can pick up a level of Olin Gisir and a level of Loremaster for 2 bonus feats. Or, if you want to sacrifice the bonus feat, you could be a primordial half giant using the racial class in the appendix of Complete Psionics for the first level, and then switching out of it at later levels (check with your DM if that's ok) to get a +4 Int modifier.
Losing human means losing Fiendish summoning specialist, wich hurts a lot. I rather lose 2 cha than this feat. Humans don't have any bonus, but that's the purpose of the template. Getting +5 INT modifier is great for skills leveling.


b) Arcane Thesis applies to a specific spell only, rather than a set of spells. Thus, you would have to apply it to "summon monster III", which would get old quickly. Overall, Metamagic School focus seems superior.
I know it only applies to a specific spell, wich can be only a single SM, not all of them. But I don't think it's a problem in this case. The character is an ultra specialist, high specialized in summoning fiends. As a DM I don't see that as a problem. Besides MSF has a 3x/day usage limit. Buuuut, if the DM doesn't allow it, MSF is the way.


c) Spell Mastery + Uncanny Forethought + Arcane Spellsurge still seems compelling in terms of providing an extra summon action / round.
I'm sorry, am I missing something? Rapid Summoning already allows me to cast SM as a standard action, so Arcane spellsurge already applies to all SM spells. What's the point on getting these 2 feats when I already get the desired effects from the ACF?


d) Malconvoker requires "any nonevil" alignment for entry.
Yes, The only thing requiring to be evil is the Baator Domain ACF, wich i explained why I chose this domain and what to do in case the DM doesn't allow.


e) Invisible Spell on summons remains a pretty powerful effect. (If you are discarding it because it's overpowered for your table that's fine.)
Actually that's a great adition! The purpose here is to make the most optimized malc. build, so i'm not really interested if it's broken. OP things will be revised by the DM eventually. That's on him, since everything here is "legal".

f) I'm still a bit enchanted by Imbued Summoning Sanctum Polymorph. The sheer versatility that adds to summons is impressive. Maybe this is overpowered also? Incidentally, Eye of Power has the same L3 limit which you can push to normally-L4 spells via Sanctum Spells.
I'm sorry. what?

g) Extend Spell is pretty easily available from a rods, which are reasonably cheap, potentially freeing up a slot you could use elsewhere.
Yeah, My bad... Gotta choose another feat instead.

[Anthrowhale]

I'm sorry, am I missing something? Rapid Summoning already allows me to cast SM as a standard action, so Arcane spellsurge already applies to all SM spells. What's the point on getting these 2 feats when I already get the desired effects from the ACF?

Arcane Spellsurge makes casting summon monster a swift action when you have the Rapid Summoning ACF. Uncanny Forethought then allows you to cast it as a standard or full-round action as well, enabling two castings / round.

I'm sorry. what?
For example, you can do SMIX[Bebilith] and out pops a Kelvezu made by polymorphing the summoned Bebilith before it appears. The trick here is that Sanctum Polymorph counts as a 3rd level spell when cast outside of your sanctum (=almost everywhere). As a 3rd level spell, it can be cast though imbued summoning.

[Guipqt]

Arcane Spellsurge makes casting summon monster a swift action when you have the Rapid Summoning ACF. Uncanny Forethought then allows you to cast it as a standard or full-round action as well, enabling two castings / round.
With Contingent conjuration (imediate action), standard action and arcane spellsurge (swift action), you can already cast 3 SM in one turn. I still don't get Uncanny Forethought's point.


For example, you can do SMIX[Bebilith] and out pops a Kelvezu made by polymorphing the summoned Bebilith before it appears. The trick here is that Sanctum Polymorph counts as a 3rd level spell when cast outside of your sanctum (=almost everywhere). As a 3rd level spell, it can be cast though imbued summoning.[/QUOTE]
I searched for Sanctum Polymorth and ddnt find anything. could you send the reference?

[Anthrowhale]

With Contingent conjuration (imediate action), standard action and arcane spellsurge (swift action), you can already cast 3 SM in one turn. I still don't get Uncanny Forethought's point.
You don't have a choice about whether or not to apply the speedup that Arcane Spellsurge provides. Hence, you can't cast a standard action SM.


I searched for Sanctum Polymorth and ddnt find anything. could you send the reference?
What are you looking for? I'm not sure it's a trick that has been noted previously. The observation is just that Imbued Summoning requires an L3- spell and Sanctum Polymorph is an L3 spell outside of your sanctum. Hence, you can do Imbued Summoning [Sanctum Polymorph]. This provides access to many possibilities, some of which are highlighted here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=519.0). I particularly like War Troll (https://web.archive.org/web/20201218172429/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6) (Dazing Blow, high Str, Con, Attack) and Kelvezu (Flight, poison, sneak attack, high Dex and AC) as combat forms. Reading through the Rules of the Game (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215214/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a) article, an Augmented Summoning Fiendish Colossal Monstrous Spider polymorphed into a War Troll will have stats of:

Large Monstrous Humanoid [Augmented Fiendish Colossal Monstrous Spider]
Hit Dice: 32d8+352+20 (516 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft.
Armor Class: 26 (-1 size, +14 natural armor, +3 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +24/+40
Attack: Claw or Bite
Full Attack: 2 claws +36 melee (1d8+12) and bite +31 melee (1d6+6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Dazing blow (DC 37), Smite Good 1/day
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60', DR 10/magic, Resist Cold 10, Resist Fire 10, Spell Resistance 25
Saves: Fort +29, Ref +13, Will +10
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 16, Con 33, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: Climb +18, Hide +2, Jump +12, Spot +7
Feats: -

The particularly telling combo here is the high attack bonus and the high dazing blow DC with a large hit point cushion. With 3 chances to daze lock an opponent, it's a credible threat to most CR 16 opponents it can get to (choose wisely so it does get to the opponent). The colossal monstrous spider is also a credible threat on it's own with a DC 30 poison save or a DC 30 web, but the War Troll Polymorph fits many more places (like underground).

[Guipqt]

You don't have a choice about whether or not to apply the speedup that Arcane Spellsurge provides. Hence, you can't cast a standard action SM.

Ok... Arcane Spellsurge text doesn't allow to SM as a standard action... I may be wrong, but can't a spellcaster control the flux of magic in order to control it's speed? Ok, making it quicker requires feats, itens, and etc, but making it slower shoudn't. Right? Or this interpretation opens ways to break the game?


What are you looking for? I'm not sure it's a trick that has been noted previously. The observation is just that Imbued Summoning requires an L3- spell and Sanctum Polymorph is an L3 spell outside of your sanctum. Hence, you can do Imbued Summoning [Sanctum Polymorph]. This provides access to many possibilities, some of which are highlighted here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=519.0). I particularly like War Troll (https://web.archive.org/web/20201218172429/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6) (Dazing Blow, high Str, Con, Attack) and Kelvezu (Flight, poison, sneak attack, high Dex and AC) as combat forms. Reading through the Rules of the Game (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215214/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a) article, an Augmented Summoning Fiendish Colossal Monstrous Spider polymorphed into a War Troll will have stats of:

Large Monstrous Humanoid [Augmented Fiendish Colossal Monstrous Spider]
Hit Dice: 32d8+352+20 (516 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft.
Armor Class: 26 (-1 size, +14 natural armor, +3 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +24/+40
Attack: Claw or Bite
Full Attack: 2 claws +36 melee (1d8+12) and bite +31 melee (1d6+6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Dazing blow (DC 27), Smite Good 1/day
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60', DR 10/magic, Resist Cold 10, Resist Fire 10, Spell Resistance 25
Saves: Fort +29, Ref +13, Will +10
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 16, Con 33, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: Climb +18, Hide +2, Jump +12, Spot +7
Feats: -

The particularly telling combo here is the high attack bonus and the high dazing blow DC with a large hit point cushion. With 3 chances to daze lock an opponent, it's a credible threat to most CR 16 opponents it can get to (choose wisely so it does get to the opponent). The colossal monstrous spider is also a credible threat on it's own with an even higher DC 30 poison save or a DC 30 web, but the War Troll Polymorph fits many more places (like underground).


Now, that's a broken combo! At Lv18 this character can, as a free action, summon 2 invisible Colossal Fiendish monstrous spiders, they both enter polymorphing into 12-headed Hydras. Then, on the other actions, cast haste on both for an 650 average damage. And all of that for no increasing casting cost.

That's what I was looking for LOL

[Anthrowhale]

Ok... Arcane Spellsurge text doesn't allow to SM as a standard action... I may be wrong, but can't a spellcaster control the flux of magic in order to control it's speed? Ok, making it quicker requires feats, itens, and etc, but making it slower shoudn't. Right? Or this interpretation opens ways to break the game?

Arcane Spellsurge is pretty explicit that you can't turn it off.

...if all your spells normally have casting times of 1 standard action, they take 1 swift action instead, and because you can't take more than one swift action in a round, you won't be able to cast multiple spells per round while under the effect of arcane spellsurge.
So you need spells with a casting time of 1 full round to get another spell in during the round. Uncanny Forethought provides a mechanism to achieve that.

[Guipqt]

Arcane Spellsurge is pretty explicit that you can't turn it off.

So you need spells with a casting time of 1 full round to get another spell in during the round. Uncanny Forethought provides a mechanism to achieve that.

You're able to cast SM as a Free Action (Speaking) and as a swfit action (arcane spellsurge). That's 2 SM in the same turn without even the standard action. Ok, in the next round things will be different but I don't see this feat being THAT relevant giving you already summoned 4 monsters last turn and you can only use it x times/day as your INT modifier. Maybe casting full-round spells or even planar binding... I have my doubts on this....

[Anthrowhale]

You're able to cast SM as a Free Action (Speaking) and as a swfit action (arcane spellsurge). That's 2 SM in the same turn without even the standard action. Ok, in the next round things will be different but I don't see this feat being THAT relevant giving you already summoned 4 monsters last turn and you can only use it x times/day as your INT modifier. Maybe casting full-round spells or even planar binding... I have my doubts on this....

It seems reasonable to skip since, as you note, it doesn't do anything for you in the first round.

The second casting in later rounds need not be more SMs. It could for example be buffs for existing SMs.

W.r.t. whether or not Int mod is enough, I guess the question is: how many times in a typical adventuring day are you on the 2+ round of combat? The "standard" adventuring day calls for 4 encounters/day which basically takes care of all of your 9th & 8th level slots in the first rounds (Casting + Contingent casting) and second round (another casting). Using Arcane Spellsurge, you'll also burn up half your 7th level slots for the spellsurge itself and then you'll be able to use Uncanny Forethought about 2 times in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of each of 4 encounters to cast L7 or lower spells. That's handy, but not an overwhelming advantage.

In either case, having a good list of multitarget buffs for your summons seems like a good idea.

[Guipqt]

In either case, having a good list of multitarget buffs for your summons seems like a good idea.

That's what i was thinking about. Haste itself allows multitargeting, and it's a great buff. Do you recommend any other? I was thinking on using chain spell for multitargeting but the caster level increase is a discouraging, since this build do all of that without a single caster level increase XD

Both Haste and Polymorph are 3rd level spells (for the purpose of this build). So, later on the game all 4 third level slots will be used to prepare only these spells. So I gotta fing other spells from other levels, with nice interactions, not strictly buffs. Fogs spells and field controls, for example.

[Anthrowhale]

Sanctum Polymorph uses a 4th level slot even though it casts as a 3rd level spell outside of your sanctum.

In addition to Haste, Mass Fly (L5), Mass Fire Shield (L5), and Mass Snake's Swiftness (L3) all seem potentially useful.

Separately, I realized that I forgot to adjust the dazing blow DC for HD---it's actually DC 37, which is high enough to threaten pretty much anything you encounter.