Who will live, who will die?

[Dame_Mechanus]

All right, here's a topic I haven't seen floating around here much: Who's actually going to make it through to the end of this comic alive?

As comics go, OotS is not a particularly savage environment; while there are a lot of plot-critical characters who die, it's pretty universally characters who have reached an ending of some sort and can go out if not on a high note at least on a fitting one. And we've already been clearing away a lot of the side antagonists over time. Sure, some of them are still kicking around, but Haley's done with the Thieves' Guild by all indications at the moment and I don't see Hel's vampires playing a significant role in the rest of the main story. Maybe in the epilogue, but not right now.

But that's hardly everyone in the comic. Heck, that's hardly the most important people in the comic. So what are the odds of the major characters whose survival feels up in the air living to the end of the comic? I think everyone is going to have their own estimations on this, but this is mine, and intended to prompt further discussion.

For the record and ahead of any and all further discussion, let me make something clear: in this case, my guess is not that every character listed will absolutely definitely not die and need some kind of spell to raise them from death. Resurrection is a thing that exists, and while it is not exactly common there are a lot of potential sources for it. So my prediction is about ultimate fates, whether that means that the character is killed in such a way that they cannot be resurrected or if circumstances would lead to them not wishing to be resurrected (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html).

Order of the Stick

Roy: 80%
Honestly, while a heroic sacrifice is definitely within Roy's overall milieu, it feels like it doesn't have as much narrative punch especially when we already got an extended arc in which he was a corpse. It feels like there's just not a lot of narrative utility in having him drop again, and his plot resolution definitely seems like it's going to involve Roy dealing with the aftermath of heroism rather than being someone who got lost in the struggle.

Haley: 90%
For one thing, she's not the "heroic sacrifice" type. For another, Haley is a survivor and has a knack for living through even desperate circumstances; that's part of her whole routine. For a third thing, it's really hard for Elan to get his happy ending if the ending involves his girlfriend dying. Sure, there could be a bittersweet element to it, but the Oracle didn't promise him an esoteric happy ending!

Durkon: 85%
The man has a child, he also spent a good chunk of a story dead (if mobile), and quite frankly even Durkon getting a heroic sacrifice feels like it's just rehashing the heroic sacrifice he already made. Even more than Roy! There's still a possibility that he doesn't make it because he'd definitely go to Valhalla and he'd consider that a reward for a life well lived, but it seems pretty unlikely.

Vaarsuvius: 60%
If anyone is going to die in the main cast other than the obvious member, it's going to be V. Now, that might sound a little odd. V has a lot of regret and has made an enormous set of mistakes up to this point, but she's not really the self-sacrificing sort and her story isn't really about trying to make up for what she did with it... or is it? We don't actually have a very clear picture of how V's changes are ultimately going to change her in the long run; thus far all we've really seen is her reactions in Blood Runs in the Family, and she was largely out of focus in Utterly Dwarfed. Could it be that she figures out some way to turn the tables on the IFCC at the last minute involving her death? Could she ultimately find redemption there? I don't know, and I don't think it's a given, but it's possible.

Elan: 95%
Come on, we know he gets a happy ending! Him dying seems like a pretty weird way to get to a happy ending! Sure, it's possible, but it'd be really weird!

Belkar: 0%
Oracle says you're going to die, you're going to die. You should probably make sure Bloodfeast and Mr. Scruffy are taken care of ahead of time, guy.

Assorted Paladins and Allies

O-Chul: 60%
It feels morbid to say, but if you wanted a moment to motivate MitD to finally say that he was done with Team Evil for good, O-Chul dying at the hands of his supposed friends is a pretty solid way to sell it. Not to mention that O-Chul repeatedly talks about not being up to the task of this magnitude, about enduring, about his limitations, and so forth. He has escaped death many times, but it wouldn't exactly shock me if he decides the final task the Twelve Gods have given him is to sacrifice himself. Plus, you know... Paladin. It's what they do.

Lien: 75%
Again, Paladin. But Lien dying feels a bit more... not cruel but arbitrary. She doesn't really have an arc leading up to death specifically so much as she has one about being a Paladin living in some very interesting times. It'd be plausible, but it seems a little out there.

Minrah: 50%
Wait, didn't Minrah also already die once before? Yes. But we also know that Minrah has a role to fulfill and as of this point in the story, it's not altogether clear what that role might be. She is, in some ways, surplus to requirements when it comes to the Order's overall allies and doesn't have an obvious narrative purpose to fulfill. That's not to say I don't like Minrah - I think she's a fun character, and I am sure that she does have a reason to be with the party and helping them. But "dying in some horrible way" could very well be her narrative purpose, let's be frank.

Serini: 25%
Serini is elderly. She's living in fear of Xykon. She's watched someone give their life to defend the world before and in some ways I think she's still worried about not measuring up to that. "Not measuring up" seems to be in the back of her mind a lot. Honestly, her getting to actually do some damage to Xykon before she dies feels like it might be a very reasonable end for the character.

Sunny: 80%
Look, Sunny is a treasure and should be protected. I'll put our multi-eyed friend in the same relative tier as Roy and Durkon. Probably going to live.

Team Evil

Xykon: 5%
There are a handful of potential endings wherein Xykon gets away somehow and the story still has a satisfying ending, but not many, and a lot of them rely on cheats or you not thinking too hard about it. It'd wildly surprise me if he makes it through.

Redcloak: 50%
No, really, I feel like this one could go either way. Could there be a "Redcloak sees the error of his ways and tries to redeem himself" ending? Absolutely. Could there be a "Redcloak sees the error of his ways and dies in the process" ending? Also absolutely. I don't think we know enough right now to really be sure if he makes it through to the end or not.

Monster in the Darkness: 90%
Yes, technically the monster could die once the reveal finally happens... but that hardly seems fair. So much has been made of how he has changed and grown over the course of the comic. It seems like any reasonable ending would involve him finally living his life freely and exploring what that means for his characterization.

Oona: 70%
Really, the main reason I put her odds this low is because Oona is functionally just muscle at this point while also subtly pointing out that Redcloak may not be as smart as he thinks he is. We don't have a lot of narrative heft to her aside from providing another (largely comedic) viewpoint on Team Evil. There's no real reason to kill her, but it also wouldn't really shock me if she ate it in the process.

Greyview: 60%
All death inevitable. Also horrible.

[Riftwolf]

My guess is it'll be like Narnia and end in weird unsatisfying allegory.

[dancrilis]

Belkar: 0%
Oracle says you're going to die, you're going to die. You should probably make sure Bloodfeast and Mr. Scruffy are taken care of ahead of time, guy.
The Oracle is not all knowing - he thought that ghost Roy would forget his trip.



Xykon: 5%
There are a handful of potential endings wherein Xykon gets away somehow and the story still has a satisfying ending, but not many, and a lot of them rely on cheats or you not thinking too hard about it. It'd wildly surprise me if he makes it through.


I think you would need to define 'satisfying' for this, but ignoring that if you place a lot of value on the Oracle then it might be worth noting that he has no issue seeing how Vaarsuvius will gain ultimate power (i.e dealing with powerful forces of the lower planes), has no issues dealing with dragons with class levels, doesn't think anything of mocking some of what might be the highest level heroes in the world, has a direct link to his deity ... but describes Xykon as 'fricking scary', if you value the Oracle's opinion then underestimating Xykon may be a mistake (may be a mistake even if you don't value the Oracles opinion).

[Dame_Mechanus]

The Oracle is not all knowing - he thought that ghost Roy would forget his trip.

Something that was explained within the exact same strip because he didn't actually bother to check. The Oracle does not need to be all-knowing for the Oracle's prophecies to be accurate, and every single one of them have been.


I think you would need to define 'satisfying' for this, but ignoring that if you place a lot of value on the Oracle then it might be worth noting that he has no issue seeing how Vaarsuvius will gain ultimate power (i.e dealing with powerful forces of the lower planes), has no issues dealing with dragons with class levels, doesn't think anything of mocking some of what might be the highest level heroes in the world, has a direct link to his deity ... but describes Xykon as 'fricking scary', if you value the Oracle's opinion then underestimating Xykon may be a mistake (may be a mistake even if you don't value the Oracles opinion).

I'm not even sure what in the world this is supposed to be in reference to. The Oracle's reference to Xykon being scary is a statement that Roy still would have died if he had faced him while standing on the ground instead of in the air (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html), not due to any sort of personal fear. We know that he's not particularly scared of Xykon, given that he just doesn't want to see him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html). And why would he be afraid of a dragon when he is specifically empowered by Tiamat (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html)?

Even beyond that, whether or not the Oracle finds Xykon scary has no bearing on Xykon's odds of surviving to the end of the story.

[InvisibleBison]

Elan, Haley and Roy are definitely going to live, in order to fulfill the Oracle's prophecy about Elan getting a happy ending. (Other people surviving might be necessary for that, but these three at a minimum are required for it to come true).

Durkon, Vaarsuvius and the MitD are probably going to survive. Durkon and V because they're good guys and this is a generally heroic and upbeat story. Durkon's survival is more likely than V's, because he's already died a bunch and they've got that whole redemption arc thing going on, but in both cases survival is probable. The MitD because he's going to switch sides to the good guys at some point, and I don't think the Giant wants to do a redemption death thing with him (since he hasn't really done much to be redeemed of).

Xykon and Belkar are definitely going to die, the latter because there's no way for him to survive without a major tonal shift which at this point would just be bad writing, the latter in order to fulfill the Oracle's prophecy.

Beyond that, I don't feel confident making predictions.

[hroþila]

For Belkar, I'd give him a 0.5-1% chance of the prophecy somehow becoming true in an unexpected way and him not actually dying.
For Xykon, I think there's a bigger chance that he'll survive but be imprisoned forever in some way - for example, if his phylactery ends up somewhere where it's safe but Xykon is automatically destroyed as soon as he regenerates. I'd put that at about 5-10%. Chances of Xykon just walking away are close to 0% in my opinion.
For Redcloak, sometimes I want to rate his chances of dying way higher than 50%. But it's anyone's guess really.

So yeah, by and large I agree.

[H_H_F_F]

V is non-binary, and usually referred to by the pronoun "they", I think.

Anyway, I'm of the opinion that Elan is far more likely to die than you think. I'd give him a 25% survival rate.

He's matured a lot since he got that prophecy. He's the happy-go-lucky guy who has everything to look forward to. He's also very narrative-savvy. I think him dying to save his friends, and truly seeing it as a happy ending as long as Haley lives on, is far more likely now than it ever has been.

[hungrycrow]

V is non-binary, and usually referred to by the pronoun "they", I think.

Anyway, I'm of the opinion that Elan is far more likely to die than you think. I'd give him a 25% survival rate.

He's matured a lot since he got that prophecy. He's the happy-go-lucky guy who has everything to look forward to. He's also very narrative-savvy. I think him dying to save his friends, and truly seeing it as a happy ending as long as Haley lives on, is far more likely now than it ever has been.

Even if he's willing to accept it now, him dying to save everyone wouldn't be a "happy" ending, it would be bittersweet.

[Fyraltari]

Xykon and Belkar are goners. Doubt anybody else on the Order is going to bite it. Maybe Vaarsuvius, but even then, I feel they're more likely to get redemption through a lifetime of atonement rather than heroic death (I suspect they will heroically sacrifice their magic somehow, though).

If O-Chul dies then his aunt and the Monster in the Dark will be sad and I don't want it. More seriously, I doubt any of the Azurites are in danger. Daigo will probably have to reveal his last name, though.

Redcloak, I give even odds of croaking.

Serini is probably going to die, if only to round out the Scribblers' story.

[Zarhan]

Frankly, considering that there is a definite afterlife, the impact of death in this particular story is far less than in the typical one where deaths are final and they cause Wham moments. Technically, even if we get a Total Party Kill, we could still have an epilogue where we follow our heroes as their spirits saunter around in Outer Planes. As Hilgya points out (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1150.html), most deaths are just 10 minutes cleric spell away, and as we have seen, to Durkon and Minrah death just means a chance to start chugging down beer in Valhalla.

The far more interesting question is which characters are going to end up either consumed by snarl (as "true" death as it can be) or stuck in some limbo (not the plane Limbo) which keeps them from moving on but removes their agency (such as ending up inside a fancy gem with Soul Bind, getting turned into ghost, etc). My guess is that at least one of the villains will end up tangled.

[Metastachydium]

My guess is it'll be like Narnia and end in weird unsatisfying allegory.

K. Just don't get too attached to that theory.


If O-Chul dies then his aunt and the Monster in the Dark will be sad and I don't want it.

I'm also vehemently opposed to the idea that O-Chul must die to motivate the Monster. He did plenty of that already through not dying and being there for the Monster. (Further, we're talking about O-Chul. If anyone thinks stuffing him into the fridge has any chance to do him lasting harm, they should know that they are wrong and they should feel wrong.)


More seriously, I doubt any of the Azurites are in danger.

Well, Hinjo certainly won't. Belkar's going to save him.


Serini is probably going to die, if only to round out the Scribblers' story.

But her death might not be as violent as many seem to think it will be. (To stay in keeping with the real purpose of this forum,) a Yoda death would feel kind of appropriate.


Frankly, considering that there is a definite afterlife, the impact of death in this particular story is far less than in the typical one where deaths are final and they cause Wham moments. Technically, even if we get a Total Party Kill, we could still have an epilogue where we follow our heroes as their spirits saunter around in Outer Planes. As Hilgya points out (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1150.html), most deaths are just 10 minutes cleric spell away, and as we have seen, to Durkon and Minrah death just means a chance to start chugging down beer in Valhalla.

Well, yes, but no. That thing where our heroes "die but it's fixed somewhere in the next book" featured in the story to great effect, but more of it would probably be a bit too much. Meanwhile, staying dead and ending up in four different afterlives, leaving loved ones behind on the Material would be anything but a satisfying epilogue for the story.

[Precure]

Even if they die, it wouldn't make sense for anyone other than Xykon and Belkar to stay death.

[Crusher]

Who lives, who dies, Elan tells your story.

[Edreyn]

Whatever happens to the race and state of goblins, Redcloak MUST die. He is evil beyond redemption and committed many atrocities, too many to be accepted even if his cause will be accepted as noble. He must be punished.

Of course Xykon, as main villain must die too.

MitD almost for sure will live and be happy in his life. Maybe he will find his species and they will be non-evil.

Order, maybe with exception of Belkar, will live and have a happy ending. Maybe even for Belkar the prophecy will shoot in some unexpected way, and he will survive too.

Trio of fiends, deities and other non mortals will continue to exist and do their good/evil deeds for eternity.

[Liquor Box]

Elan: 95%
Come on, we know he gets a happy ending! Him dying seems like a pretty weird way to get to a happy ending! Sure, it's possible, but it'd be really weird!


Going to the best of the afterlives seems almost the definition of a happy ending, especially if it follows a satisfactory victory. It's also consistent with the sort of prophecy subversion that happened in Durkon's case

[hroþila]

Going to the best of the afterlives seems almost the definition of a happy ending, especially if it follows a satisfactory victory. It's also consistent with the sort of prophecy subversion that happened in Durkon's case
No, that's an ending where Elan is personally happy, not an ending to the story that Elan (a trained bard with a penchant for traditional storytelling) would consider a happy one. There is a crucial difference between the two. As noted, the former would be a bittersweet ending at most.

[Liquor Box]

No, that's an ending where Elan is personally happy, not an ending to the story that Elan (a trained bard with a penchant for traditional storytelling) would consider a happy one. There is a crucial difference between the two. As noted, the former would be a bittersweet ending at most.

What do you think is required for a happy ending from Elan's perspective, other than defeating the bad guys and dying heroically, and going on to personal happiness?

If a hero dying makes it bittersweet, than does that count against Belkar dying? For all the talk in the other thread about Roy's opinion on Belkar, I don't think Elan would want him dead.

[hroþila]

I agree that Elan doesn't want Belkar dead, but we already saw in the illusion that his death wouldn't preclude a wildly happy ending for Elan, so there's that. It's hard to draw a line of just how much death Elan would accept to still consider it a happy ending, but I think the line exists nonetheless.

That said, while it's not the first time I bring up this argument about bittersweet endings, I think I find it less and less convincing each time?

[H_H_F_F]

Here's the thing: Elan dying after saving everyone and being at peace with his decision would be very bittersweet for us. It'd be very bittersweet For Haley. But if Elan will truly be at peace with his decision, and with the world - which I think he is now capable of - it'll be a happy ending for him. And that's all he was promised.

[Metastachydium]

What do you think is required for a happy ending from Elan's perspective, other than defeating the bad guys and dying heroically, and going on to personal happiness?

If a hero dying makes it bittersweet, than does that count against Belkar dying? For all the talk in the other thread about Roy's opinion on Belkar, I don't think Elan would want him dead.


Here's the thing: Elan dying after saving everyone and being at peace with his decision would be very bittersweet for us. It'd be very bittersweet For Haley. But if Elan will truly be at peace with his decision, and with the world - which I think he is now capable of - it'll be a happy ending for him. And that's all he was promised.

Um, what? If Elan dies fighting Team Evil (or Xykon (or Redcloak (or the IFCC))) there's two things that may follow: he's
1. either brought back by way of magic which he would likely find thoroughly meh (In his own words, the comic's been there, done that already);
2. or winding up dead for good. Now, I fail to see how he getting separated from Haley for what might be a very long time, not getting a chance to catch up with her mother, the only known member of his family who's neither dead, nor Tarquin, and who's clearly important to him is something that he'd pick over not dying a cool death early.

[H_H_F_F]

Um, what? If Elan dies fighting Team Evil (or Xykon (or Redcloak (or the IFCC))) there's two things that may follow: he's
1. either brought back by way of magic which he would likely find thoroughly meh (In his own words, the comic's been there, done that already);
2. or winding up dead for good. Now, I fail to see how he getting separated from Haley for what might be a very long time, not getting a chance to catch up with her mother, the only known member of his family who's neither dead, nor Tarquin, and who's clearly important to him is something that he'd pick over not dying a cool death early.

It's not about dying a cool death. It's about "if this is what it takes to save Haley, my friends and the world, then I'm happy to do it.

[Fyraltari]

Whatever happens to the race and state of goblins, Redcloak MUST die. He is evil beyond redemption and committed many atrocities, too many to be accepted even if his cause will be accepted as noble. He must be punished.

This is your opinion and I respect it, but know that I do not share it.

[brian 333]

100% Alive:
Elan, Haley
I believe their fate will be tied to that of the world in the rift. They will begin a new adventure in a new land.
It will create a way for them to permanently exit Ian and Tarquin's story, give them new adventures where they are the main characters instead of the supporting cast, and most of all, create an environment where Elan and Haley can have their happy ending without their baggage of the past following them.

MitD
Monster-san has to have a chance to grow up.

Julia
While I think Julia will play a part in the future development of the plot, I don't think her death would in any way add to the story. We don't have the narrative investment in her that would make killing her off a meaningful plot development.

90% Alive
Redcloak
He has to survive long enough to see the long term consequences of his actions. Dying would allow him to escape and never have to face what he's done.

80% Alive
Durkon, Vaarsuvius
Both characters have reasons to live, but more importantly, I can conceive of very few meaningful ways that their deaths might add to the story. Durkon needs to be the father he never had to Kudzu, and Vaarsuvius needs to be the parent he never was to his children.

The Paladins, Oona, Greyview
What story purpose would be served by their deaths? Sure, when the time comes, it may make sense, but at this point the only conceivable reason would be noble sacrifice, in which case, why not have a main character do it?

50% Alive
Roy
I used to lean toward Roy's survival being guaranteed by Elan's 'Happily Ever After' but have since realized that the story of Roy's noble sacrifice to save everyone and everything would serve as well. Elan would be proud to tell and retell Roy's heroic saga, though it may not rate a ten-thousand stanza epic poem.
However, it could serve many different plot and character points for Roy to die.
Examples:
Roy, choosing between the final defeat of Xykon and saving Belkar from The Snarl, chooses to try and fail to save Belkar. He dies, the rest of The Order takes out Xykon, the world is saved.
Roy sacrifices himself to protect the casters as they seal a rift.
Roy destroys Xykon, but dies in the deed.

0% Alive
Xykon
Aside from the fact that he was already 0% alive at the beginning of the story, we have his destruction as the single overarching reason for the comic. He may have some afterlife shenanigans, but his creature type will be changed to Outsider.

Belkar
Not just because The Oracle said it, but because it would neatly wrap up his story. Too many people have too many opinions on what his afterlife should be. Leaving that an open question invites end-of-book disappointment along the lines of, 'it was all a dream'. Remember the end of Stewie's simulation in Family Guy?
If The Author does choose an afterlife for Belkar, 2/3 of the readers will be angry because it was implausible in their opinion, and it really doesn't matter which is chosen. That's my secondary reason for proposing his will be a 'death by Snarl' event.

[InvisibleBison]

It's also consistent with the sort of prophecy subversion that happened in Durkon's case

Durkon's prophecy wasn't subverted. It came true exactly as the Oracle said. Durkon died, and then he went home, thus his return home was posthumous.

[KorvinStarmast]

Who will live, who will die?
To slightly misquote a very successful movie:
Everyone dies, not everyone truly lives.

My guess is it'll be like Narnia and end in weird unsatisfying allegory.
Likely.


Roy: 80% ... his plot resolution definitely seems like it's going to involve Roy dealing with the aftermath of heroism rather than being someone who got lost in the struggle. I'll drop two centavos on this, yes.

Haley: 90%
Haley is a survivor and has a knack for living through even desperate circumstances; that's part of her whole routine. For a third thing, it's really hard for Elan to get his happy ending if the ending involves his girlfriend dying. Low hanging fruit.

Durkon: 85% Try 99%. He's already died. More than once.

Vaarsuvius: 60%
If anyone is going to die in the main cast other than the obvious member, it's going to be V. Two centavos bet against. V's attempt atonement, and quest thereof, is now V 'rides off into the sunset' after the third time out with the fiends. It takes up the remainder of V's long elven life, off screen.

Elan: 95% Try 99%.

Belkar: 0% Two centavos for this bet.

Assorted Paladins and Allies

O-Chul: 60% I'll go 50-50 on this. His purpose is the safety of the gate, which didn't work out, so now it's the safety of the world. He's willing to give his life in that cause.

Lien: 75% Another protection from fridging issue here.


Minrah: 50% Two centavos against. She's got a whole life to try and life, and came back to do it.


Serini: 25% She'll go to 0 HP and regenerate, unless Xykon nails her with a meteor swarm.

Sunny: 80% Probably going to live. See also the Elan factor.

Team Evil


Xykon: 5% Try 0%. Pretty sure Rich won't be writing a sequel; this isn't the Diablo franchise, this is Order of the Stick.


Redcloak: 50%
No, really, I feel like this one could go either way. to tough to call. But I think he's gonna go and meet his brother before it's over, and Jirix will lead the nation of Gobbotopia into their future ...

Monster in the Darkness: 90% Two centavos for.

Oona: 70%
Greyview: 60%
All death inevitable. Also horrible.
I'll suggest 90% for both.

Frankly, considering that there is a definite afterlife, the impact of death in this particular story is far less than in the typical one where deaths are final and they cause Wham moments. Agree.


The far more interesting question is which characters are going to end up either consumed by snarl Agree.

[Metastachydium]

It's not about dying a cool death. It's about "if this is what it takes to save Haley, my friends and the world, then I'm happy to do it.

That would be a pretty badass capstone on his character growth, but you'll have to try harder to convince me that dying for the people he loves or cares about counts as "happy" if the alternative is living on alongside them.


1
Roy, choosing between the final defeat of Xykon and saving Belkar from The Snarl, chooses to try and fail to save Belkar. He dies, the rest of The Order takes out Xykon, the world is saved.
Roy sacrifices himself to protect the casters as they seal a rift.

I don't see what good this would achieve beyond making sure that Eugenestays on the clouds. I mean, I can see why the idea of him overcoming his obsessive desire of beating Xykon with just his sword (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1182.html) could appeal to one, but I don't know what purpose his getting erased from existence forever in the process would serve.


Roy destroys Xykon, but dies in the deed.

Now this is even worse for (mutatis mutandis) pretty much all the reasons above.

[H_H_F_F]

That would be a pretty badass capstone on his character growth, but you'll have to try harder to convince me that dying for the people he loves or cares about counts as "happy" if the alternative is living on alongside them.


Oh, there's the disagreement: in my mind, a mature person (which Elan has become) doesn't measure their choices and what happens to them compared to some ideal they've imagined.

Meaning, if the obvious real alternative isn't "live alongside them" but "let the world end", then "save the world and your girlfriend gets to live" is a pretty damn happy ending, regardless of "it would've been nice to get to live and be a billionaire and go to the moon". If all those seem equally improbable, then getting to save the world/Haley is a very happy ending indeed.

I'm also just thinking about the way that Durkon's prophecy was realized, but not in the way we/he imagined it; I'd wager it'd be the same for Elan. The specification of "for you" has to carry some narrative weight, and "not for Belkar because he died, as another prophecy already told you" isn't it.

[Metastachydium]

Oh, there's the disagreement: in my mind, a mature person (which Elan has become) doesn't measure their choices and what happens to them compared to some ideal they've imagined.

Meaning, if the obvious real alternative isn't "live alongside them" but "let the world end", then "save the world and your girlfriend gets to live" is a pretty damn happy ending, regardless of "it would've been nice to get to live and be a billionaire and go to the moon". If all those seem equally improbable, then getting to save the world/Haley is a very happy ending indeed.

In my mind, accepting with grace and valour a horrible fate (such as dying a horrible death and losing everything one held dear, in part irrevocably) is not quite the same thing as being happy about it, nor is "given the circumstances, that was a painful but acceptable price to pay" the same thing as "yay, I've just had a happy ending", regardless of one's maturity.

[H_H_F_F]

In my mind, accepting with grace and valour a horrible fate (such as dying a horrible death and losing everything one held dear, in part irrevocably) is not quite the same thing as being happy about it, nor is "given the circumstances, that was a painful but acceptable price to pay" the same thing as "yay, I've just had a happy ending", regardless of one's maturity.

I get where you're coming from. I guess we'll see.

[Zarhan]

Whatever happens to the race and state of goblins, Redcloak MUST die. He is evil beyond redemption and committed many atrocities, too many to be accepted even if his cause will be accepted as noble. He must be punished.


How is death exactly a punishment, especially for a favored(?) high priest? They get to join their god. This is actually pretty common in D&D, e.g. drow High Priestesses get to become handmaidens of Lolth.

Complete oblivion by getting tangled, sure, but death, pfft.

[Fyraltari]

How is death exactly a punishment, especially for a favored(?) high priest? They get to join their god. This is actually pretty common in D&D, e.g. drow High Priestesses get to become handmaidens of Lolth.

Complete oblivion by getting tangled, sure, but death, pfft.

Right-Eye stares at him for a couple thousand years?

[Metastachydium]

I guess we'll see.

True enough!


Right-Eye stares at him for a couple thousand years?

Last I checked, Redcloak was the Evil one.

[Fyraltari]

Last I checked, Redcloak was the Evil one.
I don't see your point?

[hungrycrow]

I don't see your point?

Staring at Right-Eye forever might be a fitting punishment for Redcloak, but Right-Eye having to stare at Redcloak forever would be unfair.

[Fyraltari]

Staring at Right-Eye forever might be a fitting punishment for Redcloak, but Right-Eye having to stare at Redcloak forever would be unfair.

Meh, if he doesn't wanna stay, a few mirrors will do the trick (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html).

[Metastachydium]

I don't see your point?


Staring at Right-Eye forever might be a fitting punishment for Redcloak, but Right-Eye having to stare at Redcloak forever would be unfair.

That, and I also don't really see Right-Eye purposely torturing Redcloak for millenia.


a few mirrors will do the trick (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html).

Now, that is both vicious and incredibly appropriate.

[Dame_Mechanus]

V is non-binary, and usually referred to by the pronoun "they", I think.

I had been operating on old statements in which the Giant had indicated that V had a distinct gender but it was ambiguous, and pronouns such as "he" or "she" could both be used for V and said more about the person speaking than about V's actual gender. More recent answers indicate that the Giant's thinking on this has shifted and "they" would be a more appropriate pronoun to use. Mea culpa.


For Xykon, I think there's a bigger chance that he'll survive but be imprisoned forever in some way - for example, if his phylactery ends up somewhere where it's safe but Xykon is automatically destroyed as soon as he regenerates. I'd put that at about 5-10%. Chances of Xykon just walking away are close to 0% in my opinion.

That's basically where my figure comes from, yeah. It's still not a great ending, though; the blood oath remains unfulfilled if he's locked in a forever-destroyed loop, so there would have to be a whole lot of narrative juggling to make it work, even more than needed to get us to the point where the Godsmoot is technically still ongoing but a solved problem from the Order's perspective. So, you know... maybe, but unlikely in the extreme.


As Hilgya points out (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1150.html), most deaths are just 10 minutes cleric spell away, and as we have seen, to Durkon and Minrah death just means a chance to start chugging down beer in Valhalla.

Hence why I specifically opened by stating that for the purposes of this thread, "dying" is assumed to imply "and not coming back." Could I imagine an ending where Roy got popped by Xykon as he destroyed the lich, said a few last words to his father, and got resurrected by Durkon almost immediately? Easily. But that's not really what my predictions are based around. We're talking final death, not just "hit -10 HP."


I'm also vehemently opposed to the idea that O-Chul must die to motivate the Monster. He did plenty of that already through not dying and being there for the Monster. (Further, we're talking about O-Chul. If anyone thinks stuffing him into the fridge has any chance to do him lasting harm, they should know that they are wrong and they should feel wrong.)

Hey, I didn't say he must! Just that it seems within the realm of plausibility. "Not expected but not shocking," in other words.


What do you think is required for a happy ending from Elan's perspective, other than defeating the bad guys and dying heroically, and going on to personal happiness?

Well, most of the people he cares about living, for starters. Elan is not a "make a heroic sacrifice to save someone's life" sort; that's Durkon and Roy and O-Chul and Lien. These are the people who occupy the "fight a good fight and die honorably" space in the narrative. Elan occupies the "and now you get a cake and a parade because you're a hero!" space in the narrative. And while I can certainly see Elan accepting a bittersweet ending if he needed to... again, he gets a happy ending.

That doesn't mean he's going to be perfectly happy with everything - even the happy ending he envision in Girard's pyramid involve all of the loss and heartache he'd experienced up to that point, and he would definitely prefer if Nale hadn't been murdered by their father, for one thing. But there's not just one possible happy ending, and he gets one that he would consider a happy ending.

[Edreyn]

If Redcloak will fail Dark One, he will still end up in his realm, but I doubt it will be a nice stay. That's what actually happens to the majority of Lloth worshipers.

[pearl jam]

I had been operating on old statements in which the Giant had indicated that V had a distinct gender but it was ambiguous, and pronouns such as "he" or "she" could both be used for V and said more about the person speaking than about V's actual gender. More recent answers indicate that the Giant's thinking on this has shifted and "they" would be a more appropriate pronoun to use. Mea culpa.


I'd forgotten that the official status had changed as well. Easy enough to do since it's not directly addressed on panel.

[ZhonLord]

If Redcloak will fail Dark One, he will still end up in his realm, but I doubt it will be a nice stay. That's what actually happens to the majority of Lloth worshipers.

To quote Jirix: "Because I don't know about any of you, but I don't intend of getting back to that great army and being stuck on latrine duty!"

If it's the souls of every Dark One worshipper who's died since his ascension to godhood, that's a pretty big latrine to be cleaning for all eternity....

[Provengreil]

I'd forgotten that the official status had changed as well. Easy enough to do since it's not directly addressed on panel.

in fairness, the comic itself has gone long enough that society itself has experienced a shift in these matters.

Unrelated, slot me in team: redcloak won't enjoy dying if he doesn't pull of The Plan first. An evil deity believing he's lost his only chance at equality would not a kind overlord make, I think.

[Bovine Colonel]

I think Oona's chances for survival have dropped dramatically with the most recent comic. When the dolphins eventually eat the bridge, Oona and Redcloak will end up on opposite sides of the river.

[ZhonLord]

I think Oona's chances for survival have dropped dramatically with the most recent comic. When the dolphins eventually eat the bridge, Oona and Redcloak will end up on opposite sides of the river.

I think Oona's planning on going down with the bridge, personally. Fighting to keep it intact until the very last possible second.

[Ruck]

V is non-binary, and usually referred to by the pronoun "they", I think.

As I understand it, it's not really that V is non-binary like we might conceive of it, but that elves' concept of gender seems to be that it is essentially irrelevant. I don't think V has preferred pronouns and will respond to essentially any/all intended to address them. I could be wrong, but I seem to recall the Giant saying something in a recent Q&A to the effect that even though he described V as genderqueer in a book commentary, V wouldn't use that term because elves just don't think about or talk about gender in the way humans do. I could be wrong, though. (I still generally use "they" for Vaarsuvius, as their gender seems to not fall into the typical binary with a preference for being addressed as he or she.)

I am somewhat more confident that "this story will have a happy ending... for Elan, at least" does not involve Elan dying.

I think V is the only Order member besides Belkar with a shot of dying, although I lean more toward some other fate that involves them setting off on a redemptive quest.

50/50 sounds about right for Redcloak.

And Xykon has to die so Eugene can get a full evaluation and learn his life was not nearly as Lawful Good as he'd like to believe.

[Fyraltari]

And Xykon has to die so Eugene can get a full evaluation and learn his life was not nearly as Lawful Good as he'd like to believe.

Also, even if Eugene spending eternity on that cloud could be seen as a fitting fate. Julia, Roy and their hypothetical future respective descendants don't deserve it.

[brian 333]

If/when the world is unmade by the gods or destroyed by The Snarl, Eugene's blood oath will be concluded, so it's not forever. Ironically, if Roy wins and Xykon remains alive, Eugene may get stuck there for a lot longer than if Roy fails.

As for Roy, Julia, and the rest of Eugene's descendants, the Deva already let Roy through the gate. Trying is enough. Julia is setting up for a Neutral afterlife, and I can't see those guys taking the blood oath more seriously than Celestia. I cannot imagine any hypothetical children they may have being judged by harsher standards.

Eugene screwed himself. He set things up so his children had to be responsible for his oath. As long as the Lawful ones give a good faith effort to trying to fulfill the oath, they should be okay. Eugene only screwed up their lives, not their afterlives.

[Fyraltari]

As for Roy, Julia, and the rest of Eugene's descendants, the Deva already let Roy through the gate. Trying is enough. Julia is setting up for a Neutral afterlife, and I can't see those guys taking the blood oath more seriously than Celestia. I cannot imagine any hypothetical children they may have being judged by harsher standards.

Eugene screwed himself. He set things up so his children had to be responsible for his oath. As long as the Lawful ones give a good faith effort to trying to fulfill the oath, they should be okay. Eugene only screwed up their lives, not their afterlives.
Yes, so as long as Xykon remains undead, Roy, his decendants and Julia's descendants* have to try to destroy him if they want to go to Celestia.

So a situation where Xykon is somehow not destroyed but trapped for eternity, as was proposed earlier would leave them out.


*I am granting Julia's "free pass" into the TN afterlife even if I'm not convinced.

[H_H_F_F]

I agree that Oona just got way more likely to be a goner. Far from being a sure thing, but far more likely than previously estimated.

[hroþila]

Yes, so as long as Xykon remains undead, Roy, his decendants and Julia's descendants* have to try to destroy him if they want to go to Celestia.

So a situation where Xykon is somehow not destroyed but trapped for eternity, as was proposed earlier would leave them out.


*I am granting Julia's "free pass" into the TN afterlife even if I'm not convinced.
That depends on whether the impossibility of actually fulfilling the oath would be taken into account - Eugene's descendents might be exempted if wherever Xykon ends up to is considered completely inaccessible to mortals or whatever. Kinda like the recurrent debate on what happens if a non-Greenhilt destroys Xykon.

[dancrilis]

And Xykon has to die so Eugene can get a full evaluation and learn his life was not nearly as Lawful Good as he'd like to believe.

Does he?


I, Eugene Greenhilt, swear on the blood that —AAAAH! What the hell?? —swear on the blood that—AAAH!— flows from my wounds this day that I shall not rest, in—AAAH!—in this life or any other, until I or my heirs have enacted— —GUH! Goddamn it!—enacted horrible vengeance on those that have slighted me, named here as Xykon the— gnnh!—sorcerer.


It does not mention that Xykon needs to be destroyed (or that Eugene's heirs would share his punishment).


Potentially interestingly the night Eugene met Sara it seems that Xykon was actually at the same pub, if she hadn't shown up they might have bumped into each other.

[lio45]

This is your opinion and I respect it, but know that I do not share it.It's pretty much a given that Redcloak "will get punished" in the story, i.e. things won't go the way he wants. He doesn't "need" to die at all. Maybe he will, maybe he won't.

Xykon, on the other hand, being very powerful, absolutely can't be left out there as a potential force (the way Tarquin was, for example) for the story to have a reasonable close, so we can be sure he'll get destroyed or neutralized in some manner.

[Ruck]

Does he?


I, Eugene Greenhilt, swear on the blood that —AAAAH! What the hell?? —swear on the blood that—AAAH!— flows from my wounds this day that I shall not rest, in—AAAH!—in this life or any other, until I or my heirs have enacted— —GUH! Goddamn it!—enacted horrible vengeance on those that have slighted me, named here as Xykon the— gnnh!—sorcerer.


It does not mention that Xykon needs to be destroyed (or that Eugene's heirs would share his punishment).

Well, the fact that you already cited something it didn't mention that turned out to be true undermines your own argument. You've got some ideas on how "horrible vengeance" against Xykon could be enacted without destroying him?

[Psyren]

Whatever evil Redcloak did, he did expose the greater injustice of the system itself. He's actually right when he said "you wouldn't be sitting at this table if I hadn't conquered Azure City." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1208.html) I don't think that's nearly enough to make up for what he's done, but I also think the comic hasn't spent enough time on acknowledging that fact, and we'll probably revisit it before the end.

[brian 333]

...You've got some ideas on how "horrible vengeance" against Xykon could be enacted without destroying him?

I do!

Lock him in the soul gem with Lirian and Dorukon!

Bind him as a Gate Guardian, able to act only in the defense of a gate. Preferably Lirian's.

Make him sit on a cloud with Eugene for a millennium or two.

Turn him to stone, then build a giant statue of Roy with his foot on Xykon's back. The big boot foot.

Make a flute out of his femur, give it to Elan, and make it audible to Xykon no matter where he is when Elan plays it. Then tell Elan that he is a master flautist.

Eliminate his spellcasting ability.

Drop a cave ceiling on him, not to destroy him, but to pin him in place, unable to cast any spell with somatic or material components.

[theangelJean]

My guess is it'll be like Narnia and end in weird unsatisfying allegory.



Likely.

I don't get where this idea comes from.

Allegory? Maybe. We have allegory in the story, but Mr. Burlew is also very much aware of the function and shape of a story, so I am guessing that he will prioritise the ending's function as "conclusion" over making it into an allegory of itself.

But unsatisfying? I get that there are a lot of critics here, but do people really find the comic to be unsatisfying, to the point where they expect the ending to be similarly so? Is the end of each strip unsatisfying? How about the ending of each book, or any of the subplots or side stories? I'd say a lot of Rich's skill is in making his stories into carefully-shaped chunks with a "point" to each segment and a definite ending. Which currently also leaves us wanting to know what happens next, but the story isn't finished yet.

And weird? No. Wacky, definitely. Niche, in the same way as the subject it started out parodying (which some nasty people probably do call "weird"). Slightly outside expectations, most probably - that's one of the best things about the comic. Delving into new situations which are a logical result of previously established parts of the story, sure. But sheer out-of-nowhere inconsistent type of weird, isn't a big part of this story.

Now Narnia, that was definitely all three.

[pearl jam]

Can someone point to an example of allegory in OOTS? Metaphor, of course. But allegory?

[hungrycrow]

Whatever evil Redcloak did, he did expose the greater injustice of the system itself. He's actually right when he said "you wouldn't be sitting at this table if I hadn't conquered Azure City." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1208.html) I don't think that's nearly enough to make up for what he's done, but I also think the comic hasn't spent enough time on acknowledging that fact, and we'll probably revisit it before the end.

It's true that they wouldn't be having be having peace negotiations if Redcloak hadn't first declared war, but Thor would have sent diplomats no matter what because of the whole color thing.

[Metastachydium]

Thor would have sent diplomats no matter what because of the whole color thing.

The first Bearer was a contemporary of the Scribblers, if I remember correctly. And then, despite the matter being kind of urgent, he waited for Durkon to die before initiating talks.

[Fyraltari]

The first Bearer was a contemporary of the Scribblers, if I remember correctly. And then, despite the matter being kind of urgent, he waited for Durkon to die before initiating talks.

None of the Scribblers worshipped him and the gods are forbidden from telling mortals about the Snarl if they don't already know.

[Metastachydium]

None of the Scribblers worshipped him and the gods are forbidden from telling mortals about the Snarl if they don't already know.

That may or may not be the case (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). (Yes, knowledge of the Gates' existence is not the same thing as knowledge of the Snarl being a thing, but given Thor's approach to these things (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1137.html), that's nothing that can't be worked around. I also wonder if Kraagor had family.)

[KorvinStarmast]

As I understand it, it's not really that V is non-binary like we might conceive of it, but that elves' concept of gender seems to be that it is essentially irrelevant. That is roughly my take on it.

As to the oath: if there is a way to exact terrible vengeance on Xykon without destroying him, that would be interesting to see.

[Fyraltari]

That may or may not be the case (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). (Yes, knowledge of the Gates' existence is not the same thing as knowledge of the Snarl being a thing, but given Thor's approach to these things (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1137.html), that's nothing that can't be worked around. I also wonder if Kraagor had family.)

What do you mean, "may or may not be the case"? Of course the Scribblers knew about the Snarl and could be told about it. That doesn't mean that Thor could get in touch with them. The only one of them we know to be religious is Soon, and he worships the Twelve not Thor, so even if they got access to Commune (I don't think Paladins can cast that, but with a scroll, maybe?) or died they would most likely end up meeting the Twelve.

[Metastachydium]

What do you mean, "may or may not be the case"? Of course the Scribblers knew about the Snarl and could be told about it. That doesn't mean that Thor could get in touch with them. The only one of them we know to be religious is Soon, and he worships the Twelve not Thor, so even if they got access to Commune (I don't think Paladins can cast that, but with a scroll, maybe?) or died they would most likely end up meeting the Twelve.

It's a good thing then that other than musing about whether Kraagor even had a family or not, I've been talking about the three dwarves on the last panel discussing the big Gate their employer seems to have considered important for some reason. Hence the parenthetical remark concerning knowing about the Gates versus knowing about the Snarl.

[hungrycrow]

It's a good thing then that other than musing about whether Kraagor even had a family or not, I've been talking about the three dwarves on the last panel discussing the big Gate their employer seems to have considered important for some reason. Hence the parenthetical remark concerning knowing about the Gates versus knowing about the Snarl.

Okay, so the Scribblers and three dwarven contractors who probably aren't clerics of Thor either also knew about the gates and could have been told, if for some reason they ever contacted Thor somehow.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Okay, so the Scribblers and three dwarven contractors who probably aren't clerics of Thor either also knew about the gates and could have been told, if for some reason they ever contacted Thor somehow.

"Awright, Thor, we finished our initial survey of Valhalla. Got a lotta bad news for you. For one thing, you've got water damage on the supporting pillars, looks like they haven't been replaced in a long time. That'd be bad enough, but when was the last time you had someone examine these floorboards? Looks like a lot of liquid damage here, too; bet it's all the parties you throw in here. Your foundation is going to need to be redone, and that ain't cheap no matter how you slice it. Bottom line, yer lookin' at about half a million gold worth of work here, and that's if we do the bare minimum. Frankly I'd like to rip out a couple of walls and really redo things, but that's another quarter mil right there."

"Huh. Okay. What if I told you about the forces underpinning the universe?"

"Read the invoice, pal, no discounts for cosmological revelations."

[Fyraltari]

It's a good thing then that other than musing about whether Kraagor even had a family or not, I've been talking about the three dwarves on the last panel discussing the big Gate their employer seems to have considered important for some reason. Hence the parenthetical remark concerning knowing about the Gates versus knowing about the Snarl.

A) You really could have made that clearer.
B) Not all dwarves worship Thor.
C) What makes you think these dwarves can contact Thor or vice-versa to have a chat about it?

It seems to me much easier to think that the reason Thor never sent any mortal emissary to the Dark One's agents before durkon & Minrah is simply because these two were the first time he had such an opportunity rather than it being because of the fall of Azure City.

[Peelee]

I do!

Lock him in the soul gem with Lirian and Dorukon!
That requires destroying him first.

Bind him as a Gate Guardian, able to act only in the defense of a gate. Preferably Lirian's.
How?

Make him sit on a cloud with Eugene for a millennium or two.
How?

Turn him to stone, then build a giant statue of Roy with his foot on Xykon's back. The big boot foot.
How?

Make a flute out of his femur, give it to Elan, and make it audible to Xykon no matter where he is when Elan plays it. Then tell Elan that he is a master flautist.
How?

Eliminate his spellcasting ability.
That happened once. It did not turn out well.

Drop a cave ceiling on him, not to destroy him, but to pin him in place, unable to cast any spell with somatic or material components.
Still Meteor Swarm means he can probably Still Ghostform. And if he can't, well, Still Meteor Swarm.

[dancrilis]

You've got some ideas on how "horrible vengeance" against Xykon could be enacted without destroying him?

My preferred option is to kick him upstairs - i.e trick him into divinity.

As a deity he would have to put up with all the god rules, he would have to rely on mortal worship, his very nature would depend on beings nearly infinitely less powerful then him etc.

Xykon has likely always since childhood been so powerful he never needed to care about random commoners - making him utterly dependant on random commoners without any real ability to influence them, well a good author (i.e The Giant, and not me) might be able to deliver that in a satisfying way for the audience.

[Peelee]

My preferred option is to kick him upstairs - i.e trick him into divinity.

As a deity he would have to put up with all the god rules, he would have to rely on mortal worship, his very nature would depend on beings nearly infinitely less powerful then him etc.

Xykon has likely always since childhood been so powerful he never needed to care about random commoners - making him utterly dependant on random commoners without any real ability to influence them, well a good author (i.e The Giant, and not me) might be able to deliver that in a satisfying way for the audience.

A.) nothing indicates that's something that one can be "tricked" into.
2.) or even that it's a choice at all.
iii.) and even then, other gods don't care about random commoners. Hel seems pretty cruel and the only reason she's suffering now is because she made a bad wager.

[dancrilis]

A.) nothing indicates that's something that one can be "tricked" into.
I suspect that if Xykon saw a path to divinity he might jump at it before thinking about the consequences of success too much.



2.) or even that it's a choice at all.
I would doubt it is an option at all - and I don't see how it would be something Roy could or would undertake, but then I am not a published writer.



iii.) and even then, other gods don't care about random commoners. Hel seems pretty cruel and the only reason she's suffering now is because she made a bad wager.

Maybe - or maybe she tortures dishonourable dwarves in the afterlife because the dwarves believe she tortures dishonourable dwarves in the afterlife, if they thought she treated them wonderfully would she change to fit this new reality (like Loki with lying), I don't know.

For clarity I don't mean care about random commoners individually I mean care about random commoners collectively (I can see how that might not have been clear).

[Ruck]

A.) nothing indicates that's something that one can be "tricked" into.
2.) or even that it's a choice at all.
iii.) and even then, other gods don't care about random commoners. Hel seems pretty cruel and the only reason she's suffering now is because she made a bad wager.

iv. I don't think vengeance against Xykon would involve making him even more powerful than he is now.

[hungrycrow]

iii.) and even then, other gods don't care about random commoners. Hel seems pretty cruel and the only reason she's suffering now is because she made a bad wager.

This. You don't need to be nice to get worshippers. Either Xykon successfully manages a death cult, does more evil than ever, and is somewhat annoyed by having to work against god rules; or he fails and this is just a very slow way of killing him that kills a bunch more people in the process. I can't see why anyone in story would pursue this plan if it were even a possibility.

[Peelee]

I suspect that if Xykon saw a path to divinity he might jump at it before thinking about the consequences of success too much.

I really think the "consequences of success" are not what you think they are. Oh no, he'd become a god. How horrid.

[Dame_Mechanus]

I really think the "consequences of success" are not what you think they are. Oh no, he'd become a god. How horrid.

I mean, the only good joke I can think of it is Elan noting that it worked in Aladdin!

I'm not 100% convinced that Xykon absolutely needs to be destroyed outright, but that 5% is basically "maybe there's some process through which he gets trapped in an endless cycle of torment that he can't die to get out of." It does not include "maybe he becomes a literal deity and gets exactly the sort of power he's always wanted."

Not to mention that I cannot see Elan regarding that as a happy ending.

[Ruck]

I mean, the only good joke I can think of it is Elan noting that it worked in Aladdin!

I'm not 100% convinced that Xykon absolutely needs to be destroyed outright, but that 5% is basically "maybe there's some process through which he gets trapped in an endless cycle of torment that he can't die to get out of." It does not include "maybe he becomes a literal deity and gets exactly the sort of power he's always wanted."

Not to mention that I cannot see Elan regarding that as a happy ending.

Haha, I had the same thought about Aladdin before I read your post.

I think more generally, the suggestions for other ways Xykon could have horrible vengeance visited upon him mostly involve torturing him endlessly, and I think someone like Roy would have a problem with that. Let the Lower Planes do their job; we just want to end the threat he poses to everybody on the Material Plane.

[hungrycrow]

I think the most likely end for Xykon is getting annihilated by the Snarl, so there's no chance he can come back as a soul splice or something in Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier.

[Fyraltari]

I think the most likely end for Xykon is getting annihilated by the Snarl, so there's no chance he can come back as a soul splice or something in Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier.

Destroying his phylactery and disintegrating his remains would have the same effect with the added bonus of him going to hell, no?

[hungrycrow]

Destroying his phylactery and disintegrating his remains would have the same effect with the added bonus of him going to hell, no?

There's always some chance he could come back as long as his soul was still around, even if it ends up trapped in hell.

[Metastachydium]

A) You really could have made that clearer.

And you really could have assumed I'm not just too dumb to realize the Scribblers knew about the Snarl, even though they are seen fighting it in the same strip, but here we are (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html).


B) Not all dwarves worship Thor.

Certainly, but "Thor likes dwarves and dwarves like Thor" is hard canon (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=13053125&postcount=20).


C) What makes you think these dwarves can contact Thor or vice-versa to have a chat about it?

By the look of it, that's not as huge an issue (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html) as you seem to think it is if they die well (which is apparently the norm) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=19821213&postcount=9).


It seems to me much easier to think that the reason Thor never sent any mortal emissary to the Dark One's agents before durkon & Minrah is simply because these two were the first time he had such an opportunity

Perhaps. My point is, that between Thor's moments of negligence and stuff like the dwarven contractors( or Kraagor's hypothetical family), that is hardly self-evident.


rather than it being because of the fall of Azure City.

Well, I sure do prefer that to the AU!variant where it's not Soon's Gate but Dorukan's, if you catch my drift.

[Fyraltari]

And you really could have assumed I'm not just too dumb to realize the Scribblers knew about the Snarl, even though they are seen fighting it in the same strip, but here we are (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html).
Dude, calm down. I haven't called you dumb, implied that you were or even thought that you were.

You replied to:


None of the Scribblers worshipped him and the gods are forbidden from telling mortals about the Snarl if they don't already know.
with:


That may or may not be the case (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).
You'll have to excuse me for thinking that, when replying to a sentence about the Scribblers with "maybe that's right, maybe not" and linking to a page that's 99% about the Scribblers, you were still talking about the Scribblers and not the three random no-name joke NPCs in the last panel. I was just confused by this link and even asked you what you meant by that.


Certainly, but "Thor likes dwarves and dwarves like Thor" is hard canon (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=13053125&postcount=20).
Not, what's hard canon is that Thor is much more popular among the dwarves than among the humans, which just mean that there's a higher proportion of Thor-worshippers in the dwarven population than in the human one. I would bet the same is true of Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html), so I wouldn't assume that any random dwarf is a Thor worshipper.



By the look of it, that's not as huge an issue (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html) as you seem to think it is if they die well (which is apparently the norm) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=19821213&postcount=9).
Again, that's only true if the dwarf is a worshipper of Thor, otherwise they're sent somewhere else. But more importantly, once they're dead, how are they going to contact the goblins? Most people can't afford a Ressurection, and Dwarves are unlikely to Ressurect a loved one who's escaped Hel's clutches. And, that's assumoing these guys are even dead in the first place. Sixty years isn't that long ago in Dwarf Years, for all we know, they're still in the construction business in Some Place Else.


Perhaps. My point is, that between Thor's moments of negligence and stuff like the dwarven contractors( or Kraagor's hypothetical family), that is hardly self-evident.
What's more likely to you: "Out of the tiny number of people who were aware of the Snarl in the last sixty years, this is the first time one could get a proper briefing from Thor because of those very same rules that tied his hand for all of book 6" or "Thor already had a chance to try and solve the biggest problem he's had in 1, 000, 000, 000, 000s of years but didn't for some reason"?




Well, I sure do prefer that to the AU!variant where it's not Soon's Gate but Dorukan's, if you catch my drift.
I do not. What does this mean?

[Dame_Mechanus]

I think more generally, the suggestions for other ways Xykon could have horrible vengeance visited upon him mostly involve torturing him endlessly, and I think someone like Roy would have a problem with that. Let the Lower Planes do their job; we just want to end the threat he poses to everybody on the Material Plane.

Right. Put it another way - I can see Roy not stepping in if Xykon winds up in that position, but it doesn't seem like it'll be his goal. Heck, it won't even be in his top ten. Roy's goal is Xykon's destruction because he is very much of the belief that this is the path to provide the most people with the most benefit. He's open to alternatives depending on the circumstances, but he'd need a really good reason to go that route... and right now he has zero reason to believe that the world wouldn't be safer without Xykon gone.

His job isn't to make his punishment fit his crimes. His job is to administer final death to someone who definitely deserves that as a baseline.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think the most likely end for Xykon is getting annihilated by the Snarl, so there's no chance he can come back as a soul splice or something in Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier. It's crucial that he cry out "I'm Melting!" as he gets consumed by the Snarl ... :smallcool:

[Metastachydium]

Dude, calm down. I haven't called you dumb, implied that you were or even thought that you were.

(…)

You'll have to excuse me for thinking that, when replying to a sentence about the Scribblers with "maybe that's right, maybe not" and linking to a page that's 99% about the Scribblers, you were still talking about the Scribblers and not the three random no-name joke NPCs in the last panel. I was just confused by this link and even asked you what you meant by that.

I'm calm enough, thank you. I'm just not really good at getting my message across these days (e.g. the colon tumor link was there to lighten the mood). I continue to hold that if something can (likely, at the very least) be read in a way that makes sense and in a way that REALLY doesn't, it's nice to try and ascertain how it could make sense. That said, I can see how my reply could throw you off the trail; I mainly responded to the second half of yours without bothering the delete the rest. Apologies.


Not, what's hard canon is that Thor is much more popular among the dwarves than among the humans, which just mean that there's a higher proportion of Thor-worshippers in the dwarven population than in the human one. I would bet the same is true of Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html), so I wouldn't assume that any random dwarf is a Thor worshipper.

Last I checked, the elves have an entire pantheon of their own, complete with several fulltime deities. Dvalin, on the other hand, is a demigod even some of the clan elders are tired of. Between that and the "theological basis" for dwarves hating trees and that we only ever see Thor debating Hel for souls (Loki doesn't count) I think Thor might be a tad bit more popular. (Also, the Giant's comment was in response to and in agreement with (v. "[p]retty much this") a post suggesting that dwarves might be culturally predisposed towards worshipping Thor (to the point of him being somewhat like a dwarven racial deity).)


Again, that's only true if the dwarf is a worshipper of Thor,

Which is common.


But more importantly, once they're dead, how are they going to contact the goblins? Most people can't afford a Ressurection, and Dwarves are unlikely to Ressurect a loved one who's escaped Hel's clutches. otherwise they're sent somewhere else.

Death is temporary! All they need to find is an adventurer who just came to spend the night. Not that Thor couldn't send a cryptic message to his clergy (e.g. through Odin who literally did the same before probably to achieve pretty much the same thing or in the same way Loki instructed Hilgya) that goes like "Raise this random dude".


And, that's assumoing these guys are even dead in the first place. Sixty years isn't that long ago in Dwarf Years, for all we know, they're still in the construction business in Some Place Else.

No, it's not a long time. But Stickverse!dwarves are not really likely to die form old age (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1166.html) (see also the quote from the Giant). And those three? They didn't sound like they'll earn their place in somewhere that's not Hel's place through a life of virtue.


What's more likely to you: "Out of the tiny number of people who were aware of the Snarl in the last sixty years, this is the first time one could get a proper briefing from Thor because of those very same rules that tied his hand for all of book 6" or "Thor already had a chance to try and solve the biggest problem he's had in 1, 000, 000, 000, 000s of years but didn't for some reason"?

It's not about likelihood per se, although the latter's more likely than you make it out to be, given what we've seen of Thor &c. Or, rather, it is, but not like that. "Self-evidently the case" is, after all, a degree of probability, it's just not quite the same thing as "more likely".


I do not. What does this mean?

The battle for Azure City is when Redcloak snaps out of his trauma-induced stupor and gets past his prejudices. If the Church of Big Purple going big is not a key factor, then the sole key factor is the Order learning about the Snarl from Shojo, which couldn't have happened had it not been for Elan blowing up the Gate which, in turn wouldn't have happened if the Order hadn't captured that room while they were at carrying out Roy's family vendetta against Xykon, who, but for Redcloak, wouldn't have been there or, for that matter, aware of the significance the place had.

In other words, it would mean that the reason why the meeting took place as it did was that Redcloak and a close relative screwed up their own lives royally.

[WanderingMist]

Only Blackwing will survive the massive random slaughter at the end of the comic when the Snarl is let loose.

[ZhonLord]

Only Blackwing will survive the massive random slaughter at the end of the comic when the Snarl is let loose.

I seem to remember 3.5 familiars being tied to their mage's life force; so wouldn't Blackwing cease to exist if V also does?

[InvisibleBison]

I seem to remember 3.5 familiars being tied to their mage's life force; so wouldn't Blackwing cease to exist if V also does?

As far as I know, the rules are silent as to what happens to a familiar whose master dies.

[brian 333]

As far as I know, the rules are silent as to what happens to a familiar whose master dies.

It goes back to the lifestyle it had before becoming a familiar.

[InvisibleBison]

It goes back to the lifestyle it had before becoming a familiar.

Do you have a source for that?

[Peelee]

Do you have a source for that?
From elsewhere on the internet:



Death of a Master

If a master dies and the familiar survives, part of the master lives on in the familiar. It loses any extra hit points and skills it gained from the master but retains most of its familiar abilities. It is treated as having a master two levels lower (but never below 1st level). If the master is later brought back from the dead, the bond is reestablished, and the familiar gains whatever abilities go along with the master’s new level
Although published before the Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Revision, anything not republished from Tome and Blood is still a source for Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 information according to Why a Revision? (DMG (2003), p. 4)

As long as that section of Tome and Blood is not reprinted or superseded by newer material, it still pertains to the rules at large.

[brian 333]

From elsewhere on the internet:

Never saw that one. New info requires new answers to old assumptions.

[corydeburd]

The Oracle's reference to Xykon being scary is a statement that (OOTS567) Roy still would have died if he had faced him while standing on the ground instead of in the air ...

Re-reading this strip was interesting. In the second section, panel 8, the oracle says "and as for the elf..." referring to the deaths caused (in some way) by Belkar. This seems to imply that V will die. While the Oracle says he "wasn't buying" his own theories, all the people listed in more detail (Roy, Miko, Miko's Horse, then later the Oracle himself) were indeed dead. Whether Belkar can be said to have caused their deaths doesn't matter of course.

Of course, we don't get the full explanation. It could be "Belkar made V stay out in the sun too long causing them to get skin cancer 500 years later" or "V morally 'died' by selling their soul." But those would be much larger stretches than the previous explanations.

[hroþila]

Miko's horse wasn't dead though. In my opinion, something like "part of the elf died when they did X and it's somehow your fault" or something equally ridiculous would fit the progression of implausibility perfectly well.

[Metastachydium]

Yup. Windstriker merely got stuck on an Outer Plane for (probably quite) a while. That's nothing we haven't seen happening to V, in fact.

[JonahFalcon]

Redcloak has an appointment with MitD's stomach. MitD is programmed to eat Redcloak if he tries anything funny.

[corydeburd]

Yup. Windstriker merely got stuck on an Outer Plane for (probably quite) a while. That's nothing we haven't seen happening to V, in fact.

I think Windstriker will be unable to return to the mortal plane without a new summoner (does that even happen?), whereas it's not the case for V.

If V makes it to the end, I won't complain that the prophecy failed, but I think usually the Oracle's remarks have a better track record. Not just the green text ones, the regular speech bubbles are pretty accurate as well.

Edit: a number of the Oracle's prophecies / remarks actually have a tendency of coming true in multiple ways. e.g. "pair of family reunions" or Belkar-caused deaths. So it would be fitting if the remark about V had multiple elements of truth, too.

[Metastachydium]

Redcloak has an appointment with MitD's stomach. MitD is programmed to eat Redcloak if he tries anything funny.

Swallow Whole is not an automatic death sentence, especially for a (properly equipped) high level character (with access to magic). The Gibbering Orb, for instance, is a CR 27 epic monster. Its "stomach" deals a mere 4d8+3d10 points of damage a round and roughly half of it will be effortlessly handled by a cheap magical trinket or simply casting Resist Energy.


I think Windstriker will be unable to return to the mortal plane without a new summoner (does that even happen?), whereas it's not the case for V.

Special mounts are not summoned but, rather, called. Further, as specific beings that reside on an Outer Plane, by RAW, they should be legitimate targets for Gate.

[corydeburd]

Special mounts are not summoned but, rather, called. Further, as specific beings that reside on an Outer Plane, by RAW, they should be legitimate targets for Gate.

For sure. And, similarly, Roy could be recalled with raise dead. So I'm thinking that's the rough bar for Oracle remarks. I'd argue Windstriker meets that bar (high-level spell to bring him back) whereas V does not (was just out for ~23 minutes and not even their body).

[hroþila]

For sure. And, similarly, Roy could be recalled with raise dead. So I'm thinking that's the rough bar for Oracle remarks. I'd argue Windstriker meets that bar (high-level spell to bring him back) whereas V does not (was just out for ~23 minutes and not even their body).
Windstriker doesn't meet the bar no matter how hard it is to bring him back because he's alive. That's the whole point of the Oracle putting forth increasingly convoluted and unconvincing arguments - the first one (Roy) was at least somewhat arguable and it only got more ridiculous from there. So V not even being stuck somewhere else is not a problem because the Oracle was making stuff up. That's the joke.

[Peelee]

Windstriker doesn't meet the bar no matter how hard it is to bring him back because he's alive. That's the whole point of the Oracle putting forth increasingly convoluted and unconvincing arguments - the first one (Roy) was at least somewhat arguable and it only got more ridiculous from there. So V not even being stuck somewhere else is not a problem because the Oracle was making stuff up. That's the joke.

Yeah.

Well, technically, the joke was more that Belkar was the one the Oracle would kill so all the other stuff the Oracle said was him trying to avoid his fate (which he knew wouldn't work, but hey, it's free to try). But that's a minor quibble, you're still hitting the nail on the head.

[corydeburd]

Windstriker doesn't meet the bar no matter how hard it is to bring him back because he's alive. That's the whole point of the Oracle putting forth increasingly convoluted and unconvincing arguments - the first one (Roy) was at least somewhat arguable and it only got more ridiculous from there. So V not even being stuck somewhere else is not a problem because the Oracle was making stuff up. That's the joke.

We'll have to see!

For my money, the ridiculous aspect was only the causality. Sure, Belkar had some role in how Miko died, but at that point everyone causes the death of everyone so the statement is meaningless. Similarly, if V dies, Belkar won't have to be particularly to blame.

But there wasn't much debating that Roy/Miko/Oracle (soon) were dead (and Windstriker's material condition changed). So for the purposes THIS thread (death only) I'd say the Oracle's remarks were pretty spot on!

[Kish]

Yeah.

Well, technically, the joke was more that Belkar was the one the Oracle would kill
And thus is Belkar's ultimate fate revealed.

[Peelee]

And thus is Belkar's ultimate fate revealed.

On the one hand, whoops. On the other, that's hilarious and I'm not going to change it.

The Oracle certainly does have means, motive, and opportunity, after all!

[The MunchKING]

Swallow Whole is not an automatic death sentence, especially for a (properly equipped) high level character (with access to magic). The Gibbering Orb, for instance, is a CR 27 epic monster. Its "stomach" deals a mere 4d8+3d10 points of damage a round and roughly half of it will be effortlessly handled by a cheap magical trinket or simply casting Resist Energy.

Also Suggestion lasts like a day (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm), tops.

[SlashDash]

Miko's horse wasn't dead though. In my opinion, something like "part of the elf died when they did X and it's somehow your fault" or something equally ridiculous would fit the progression of implausibility perfectly well.

He went more and more absurd with his theories. So whatever he was going to say about V would be even more of a stretch. I'd easily guess that it would be something like trying to connect Belkar's action to V selling their soul to the IFCC but likely something even more absurd than that.

[SlashDash]

As for this thread's original purpose -

Belkar - 100% Dead. Yes, the author can find ways around the prophecy, but that's not it. This is pretty much a classic situation in a lot of stories. Belkar is an evil person who did so much bad stuff that there is no way for him to redeem himself. If the guy who just killed a gnome to get his cart gets to keep on going adventuring it will be absurd. Belkar dying is pretty much the only solution and an expected result. And it would hardly surprise me if Belkar's death (however it may be) would be analogous in some way to Kraggor.

Roy - 100% alive. It's Roy's story. He is the main character. The others are supporting. He'll save the day, get to listen to his dad telling him he is proud of him and continue doing good things. He has a girlfriend and all of that. They'll be together.

Elan & Haley - 100% alive. Elan gets a happy ending and it can't possibly be without Haley. I'd also say that most likely, unless the story ends with the party keeping adventuring, than they'll go back to help Ian overthrow Tarquin or maybe Haley ends up making the thieves guild a better place? (Or both at the same time?)

Durkon - 100% alive. He'll go back and help raise his kid. All he wanted was a chance to go back home and his exile is already cancelled.

V - 95% Alive. The 5% is only slightly off for a similar issue with Belkar. But V is a different story because her story was personal. We also saw them looking at their mate's picture, so very likely they'll end the story looking for some way of making amends to all the dragons and giving up adventuring and settling with their mate again. V giving up adventuring and stopping their quest for more power would be a fitting end.

Team Evil:

Xykon - 100% Dead. He is the main antagonist of the story. Anything less than final death for him is already absurd. Redcloak and the whole replaced Phylactery pretty much spells that.

Red Cloak 60% Dead. Redcloak could go either way, but I'm slightly leaning more towards dead. Part of it is again, the same issue with Belkar. He did so many awful things, it would be hard to just let him run around. Gobtopia is obviously going to be sticking around. The goblins do deserve equality. But Jirix seems like an established leader. Plus the whole part about Redcloak never meeting the Dark One makes me think that his ending will finally be of him being with his beloved deity.
He'll help the good guys, but likely to die right after.

Monster in the Dark - 100% alive obviously. He is the one we know hasn't done anything wrong and in fact helped the good guys several times. He'll probably end up with OChul.

[Rinazina]

It must be said that there is possibly an inevitable kill sequence: Xykon must die before RedClock.

(or: Xykon must go out of play permanently in a way that never allows him to return)

Because RedClock has his own phylactery and could destroy it if it were appropriate.

If, on the other hand, RedClock died before Xykon did, it would be quite bizarre for Xykon to regenerate where RedClock left his phylactery, but regardless of the weirdness, we'd have the BEBG that has to be defeated twice or more. Maybe it's boring enough that it doesn't happen?

But also true that if Xykon was destroyed in the 'normal' way and then regenerated in RedClock's pockets, we'd have a problem among Team Evil that maybe RedClock wouldn't want to have to deal with. What will he do then?

Stay tuned!

[KorvinStarmast]

It must be said that there is possibly an inevitable kill sequence: Xykon must die before RedClock. You didn't do this just once, you did it multiple times. Why do you refer to the wearer of the Crimson Mantle - shortened to Red Cloak/Redcloak, which refers to a red piece of clothing - as RedClock, which refers to a red timepiece (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/timepiece). Is there a clever play on words that I am not grasping?

Xykon must go out of play permanently in a way that never allows him to return Of course. The whole fake phylactery sub-arc is all about setting that up.

[Rinazina]

You didn't do this just once, you did it multiple times. Why do you refer to the wearer of the Crimson Mantle - shortened to Red Cloak/Redcloak, which refers to a red piece of clothing - as RedClock, which refers to a red timepiece (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/timepiece). Is there a clever play on words that I am not grasping?


no, OPS! it was a typo :smalltongue:

Cloak/Clock, in my mind, they are pronounced in the same way, so my fingers wrote them in the same way. I only wonder how many other typos like this I' making right now... I've to write in English everyday... but not event deepl.com or grammar.ly can fix errors like this :sigh:

I'll avoid this mistake in the future, not by learning the differences between Clock and Cloak, but by referring to that goblin bearing of the Crimson Mantle as Wrong-Eye.

Thanks for pointing it out, KorvinStarmast, and let's hope that Goblin death-chances is 120% so I can avoid making this mistake once again.

also if, I'm afraid, Xykon would call the next bearer of the crimson mantle RedCloak anyway, so has not to learn a new name.



Of course. The whole fake phylactery sub-arc is all about setting that up.


What are the chances of Xykon having one or more clones in temporal stasis, magic jar, contingency, and a combo that allows him to return alive immediately as soon as his phylactery is destroyed?

[PLD]

Nobody has mentioned Sabine?

I give her a 20% chance of living.

The Archfiends however I give 50% chance of surviving, defeated but not destroyed.

[KorvinStarmast]

no, OPS! it was a typo No worries. Usually a typo is just one here and there, and that's why I thought there might be a play on words going on that I didn't catch. :smallsmile: I used to type JRR Tolkien's name as JRR Tolkein with some frequency and not notice it.

What are the chances of Xykon having one or more clones in temporal stasis, magic jar, contingency, and a combo that allows him to return alive immediately as soon as his phylactery is destroyed? In that special fortress of his up in that plane? Likely enough not to bet against it. No quataloos are wagered.

[Xihirli]

I used to type JRR Tolkien's name as JRR Tolkein with some frequency and not notice it.

That’s why I write his name as JR2T to be safe.

[Peelee]

That’s why I write his name as JR2T to be safe.

But that only works out if R=2, otherwise R2 and 2R are discrete functions.

Besides, repition is the best teacher, so the ideal way to write it is Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien.

[Ruck]

This reminds me of my claim that the "R.R." in "George R.R. Martin" stands for "Robble Robble."

Also, I'm reminded of the classic (read: very old) SSI RPG Phantasie and its mini-boss J.R. Trollkin.

[Xihirli]

But that only works out if R=2, otherwise R2 and 2R are discrete functions.

Incorrect. In a function JRRT, no matter what value R is equal to it is expressed as R2. You could only use 2R if R were 2 or 0.

Just like xx is x TIMES x, not x PLUS x.

[pearl jam]

Incorrect. In a function JRRT, no matter what value R is equal to it is expressed as R2. You could only use 2R if R were 2 or 0.

Just like xx is x TIMES x, not x PLUS x.

I think Peelee's point is JRR is 2R, not R2 because you have 2 R's, not R R's, unless R is 2.

[brian 333]

Who would have thought that an internet forum discussion could ever devolve into a discussion of pseudomath?

Besides, the correct expression is John + Ronald + Reuel + Tolkien. The names are additive, not multiplicative. ( Could you imagine John * Ronald? There must be millions of them. However, Reuel, as we know, is a decimal, which brings us back to dozens, and Tolkien, also a fraction, might result in JRR being a rational person... number.

In any case, the correct formula is J+R1+R2+ TOLKIEN.

[Crimsonmantle]

You didn't do this just once, you did it multiple times. Why do you refer to the wearer of the Crimson Mantle - shortened to Red Cloak/Redcloak, which refers to a red piece of clothing - as RedClock, which refers to a red timepiece (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/timepiece). Is there a clever play on words that I am not grasping?
Of course. The whole fake phylactery sub-arc is all about setting that up.

Clock is also dated slang for face, so this was clearly a daltonism joke. (/Death of the Author.)

[Xihirli]

I still say JR2T because that’s what people actually called him.

[KorvinStarmast]

Clock is also dated slang for face, so this was clearly a daltonism joke. (/Death of the Author.) But his face is green.

I still say JR2T because that’s what people actually called him. Which people actually called him that? The Inklings? :smallconfused:

[Fyraltari]

But his face is green.

Red-green is the most common form of daltonism (more commonly known as "colorblindness").

[Peelee]

Red-green is the most common form of daltonism (more commonly known as "colorblindness").

Daltonism is red-green colorblindness. It's a subset of colorblindness, not an interchangeable term for it.

[Laurentio III]

Belkar - 100% Dead. Yes, the author can find ways around the prophecy, but that's not it. This is pretty much a classic situation in a lot of stories. Belkar is an evil person who did so much bad stuff that there is no way for him to redeem himself. If the guy who just killed a gnome to get his cart gets to keep on going adventuring it will be absurd. Belkar dying is pretty much the only solution and an expected result. And it would hardly surprise me if Belkar's death (however it may be) would be analogous in some way to Kraggor.
Belkar is on a trip for redemption and all fiction teaches, redemption is the trapdoor to death.
But the "last breath" thing could include some clausole in very small printing. It has been discussed already.
(By the way, is someone keeping the time from the prophecy? One year is a lot of time, but not eternal.)

Oh, and anyway, Belkar is going to die, return as a God with a new black quiddity, restore the seal and reign over the outcast Dark Halflings. It's canon.

[Fyraltari]

Daltonism is red-green colorblindness. It's a subset of colorblindness, not an interchangeable term for it.

Oh right, false-friend. Daltonisme is French for colorblindness.

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar is on a trip for redemption and all fiction teaches, redemption is the trapdoor to death.
Oh, and anyway, Belkar is going to die, return as a God with a new black quiddity, restore the seal and reign over the outcast Dark Halflings. It's canon. The sexy shoeless god of war will have gold lamé quiddity. Liberace and Elvis would be so proud. :smallbiggrin: