Help us! Save our Party!

[Yrnes]

Help us!

My friends and I are currently running through an Undermountain campaign (or, if you're familiar with Forgotten Realms, having Undermountain run through us) and we've hit a point where we're having difficulty with our encounters. The short of it is, we know we've got two Death Knights on our tail and we've only got 12 hours and no cleric to prepare to fight them. I'll give you as many details about our party, the Death Knights ["DKs"], and our situation as I can


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Our Party

The adventuring party consists of 8 PCs backed by an animal companion and cohort. Our average party level is 14 give or take racial adjustments, but this particular encounter consists of 2 CR 15 monsters. I couldn't tell you every in and out about us, so I'll just address our strengths and weaknesses.

Cleric : Our cleric is teched to heal, being the only primary healer in an effective 10 man cell. Every feat, spell, skill and item in his possession either buffs this ability through metamagic or otherwise augments it to be more beneficial (for instance, anytime he casts a cure spell on us we gain stackable temporary hit points equal to our level). Of course, mega healing also translates into huge damage against undead. This made him priority one to the two attacking DKs, and as of right now he's slumped over as we're dragging his corpse back to town so we can get him rezzed.

Dwarven Defender : Everything a proper dwarven defender should be, a boat load of hit points and AC, a decent amount of ability to hit and a moderate amount of damage. I happen to know his weapon will penetrate the DKs silver/good damage reduction. His reflex is low though, and he is easily harassed by their spells.

Abjurant Champion : My character - less hit points than the dwarven defender but with a higher AC and touch AC, and amazing saves (thanks to monk levels and several multiclassing). I can penetrate their damage reduction but need above average rolls just to hit them (14+ on my first attack with all my buffs, sacrificing spells to hit through the arcane boost ability). Since I have less effective caster levels and a below-amazing ability bonus, all my spells are buffs or debuffs (mage armor, shield, resist energy, fly, dispel magic, etc.)I have the luxury of picking a 4th level spell before the encounter, but as a sorcerer, so it'd be the only one I have access to.

Minotaur Monk : The monk-o-taur as I affectionately know him by- decent AC but not really able to compete with the dwarven defender or myself, his character concept revolves more around being able to stun his opponent (and use stunning fist attempts for other abilities). Due to straight-forward monk levels and the level adjustment, his biggest weakness is he cannot hit the DKs with anything less than a 20, and even if he did he would be unable to stun them and penetrate damage reduction. He can withstand some damage, but again he has less hit dice than the rest of the party and, despite a good Con score, can go down as quickly.

Arcane Heirophant : Specializing in dragon lore, our druid/sorcerer brings most of muscle to the fight. His wild shape ability lets him take a dragon form, giving him an insane combat ability through buff spells (bite of the weretiger, wraith strike etc) but his weapons don't break through the DKs' damage reduction and even he has a hard time hitting (his low base attack bonus forces him to rely on touch attacks, hence wraith strike, but the bulk of the DKs' armor class is deflection, making it less useful than normal. He also has a dragon-leopard animal companion and some kind of magic-eating dragon cohort. I wish I had stats for you but I don't have the books these are in- the cohort subs as a Use Magic Device-er rogue, and the animal companion is a pounce/ spring attack build (also dependent on the wraith strike) This character can cast up to 5th level divine (druid) and 4th level arcane (sorcerer) spells, again most of his spells buffs or debuffs.

Psion : I don't know anything about psions. She just rolls dice and blows stuff up, which leads me to believe she's pumped her primary ability score. I don't think she's prestiged, so she has below necessary saves and hit points for the encounter, making her an effective 14th level wizard with psion powers. I hope you guys know what they can do!

Sorcerer : Our sorcerer is still 13th level, which means capped at 6th level arcane spells (which include arc lightning, and greater dispel) He has low hit points and horrendous saving throws due to his single class progression.

Rogue : The rogue's biggest asset is his Use Magic Device ability (we usually load him up on wands and scrolls and let him fill in for whatever roll we need in combat) and he has a racial ability that lets him silence a foe he sneak attacks once per day. He has a very low attack bonus and hit points, a reflex save thats honorable but very low fort and will.


The Death Knights

This is just a rough list of stuff we compiled after our first encounter with them (I'll describe that in more detail later)

- They both are riding a higher CR version of a nightmare that has the ability to ethereal jaunt like it were a phase spider, only this effect applies to the DKs as well. Our group almost always has see invisibility up, so that's not so much a problem as being able to hit them in that state. The DKs have ghost touch weapons and force armor, so they can hit us without penalty while still retaining their full armor bonus. Their ride skill is maxed so attacking these mounts is like trying to hit an AC 50+ thanks to their Mounted Combat feat.

- They have no arcane buffs on them, so dispel magic is at a loss here. They do have some true-seeing ability but that really doesn't matter to our group regardless.

- They have an attack bonus sufficient enough to barely hit our high AC members, only on their first attack. We know their AC is 39 (natural, dex, and deflection on top of meager "actual armor") which makes us barely able to hit them, only our first attack. This results in a slug fest, and the DKs target one of our "squishier" characters instead (namely our rogue, psion, and cleric in our first encounter)

- The cannot be polymorphed, or effected by lightning damage. We tried a disintegrate, but we do not know if it hurt them or not.

- With smite good, they can dish out about 30hp worth of damage per swing.

- Their saving throws may not be phenomenal, but they have made any save we've thrown their way (low 20s on average we assume per modifier). On top of that, they have Spell Resistance of 28. Our sorcerer and psion can break that, but are powerless to effect them when they are ethereal.

- Thanks to a knowledge religion roll, we know they have damage reduction over silver and magic.

- They have relatively low hit points (less than 100 each) due to only having hit dice and no Con score. Despite this, we could only eek out so much damage that could actually effect them, on top of any healing ability they might have.

- They have supernatural abilities (like a fireball that is half profane damage) and some spell-like abilities.

- We're assuming our DM added levels of blackguard as well.


The Situation

We encountered the DKs on the third level of Undermountain, as we were about to descend some chasm (Belcrum's Fall I believe? I'm not entirely familiar with the campaign setting, so I don't know if this place is just his creation or is actually being run from the book). There is a small village located in the dungeon of Undermountain maybe a 20 minute ride from our current location ("Spiderden" or something to that affect, again I'm not familiar.)

As both sides learned our high ACs and insufficient attack bonuses could barely match the other, the DKs tactics went to kill our cleric (Which they succeeded in doing).

We managed to throw enough magic missiles, of all things, their way through our Heirophant, Sorcerer, and wand users to harass them while ethereal. While effective, the DKs retreated after enough harassment with the promise to return in twelve hours (and we assume that they'll be prepared for this again, either with some variant of the shield spell or brooches of shielding)

Here's the catch- in Undermountain we're running it that no teleportation spells work- no teleport, no dimension door, no regroup. We explore the dungeon thanks to a minor artifact that lets us teleport to the surface once every 24 hours. That said, we cannot head up to Waterdeep (the city above the mountain) before the DKs make good on their promise, and the only member of our party that can effectively heal us and hurt them is in dire need of a rez.

We do have 12 hours in a small dungeon village and access to any item- magic or mundane of up to 800gp in value to purchase before they come back. The rogue, psion, and myself leveled in the last fight with the DKs, but we're still coming up short on any spells or powers that can fight them effectively.


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There you have it, just about all the ins and outs short of our character sheets, our DMs' notes, and a streaming video of this last session in what our situation is. If you guys have ANY suggestions, no matter how small, we appreciate it :)

Thanks!
Yrnes

[Dairun Cates]

Quite frankly sounds like a good old-fashioned BBEG. You'll probably continue to skirmish with them until you're eventually strong enough to beat them. Either that or it's a TPK. Either way, I wouldn't worry too much as there's probably not a way to avoid it without being REALLY cheesy.

[Miles Invictus]

Ghost Touch applies to incorporeal objects. Not ethereal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#etherealness) objects. RAW, they shouldn't be able to hurt you unless they drop back to the material plane.

Also, the Mounted Combat feat only applies to the first attack each round.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

They both are riding a higher CR version of a nightmare that has the ability to ethereal jaunt like it were a phase spider, only this effect applies to the DKs as well. Our group almost always has see invisibility up, so that's not so much a problem as being able to hit them in that state. The DKs have
ghost touch weapons and force armor, so they can hit us without penalty while still retaining their full armor bonus. Their ride skill is maxed so attacking these mounts is like trying to hit an AC 50+ thanks to their Mounted Combat feat.
You'll be happy to know then that while in the Ethereal (not merely incorporeal), a force effect does NOT extend to the material. While on the Material, the force effect DOES extend to the Ethereal. Long story short, while they are Ethereal they can do nothing to you but you can still hit them even if they have ghost-touch weapons.


I have the luxury of picking a 4th level spell before the encounter, but as a sorcerer, so it'd be the only one I have access to.
Resilient Sphere. It is reflex save or be imprisoned in an impenetrable sphere of force with a radius of up to 8 ft (since your CL is 8 I assume) Ofcourse, you won't be using it on them. Yeah, they can resist any spell you throw at them because they're certainly blackguards and apply their charisma bonus to all saves plus they have SR. But guess what? You're going to cast that sphere on one of the Deathknight mounts-I bet they have a much lower SR and saves than they do-and the sphere is big enough to fit both the Deathknight and the Nightmare. So, you're essentially forcing the mount to save for its master. So, imprison one Deathknight that way (they can't escape even through the Ethereal) and fight the other solo.

An alternative is Orb of Force. 10d6 force damage, no save, no SR, can hit Ethereal, requires touch AC. The moment you see them coming in through the Ethereal, nail them. Three shots and one of them goes "poof".



- Their saving throws may not be phenomenal, but they have made any save we've thrown their way (low 20s on average we assume per modifier). On top of that, they have Spell Resistance of 28. Our sorcerer and psion can break that, but are powerless to effect them when they are ethereal.
The very moment you see them coming in the Ethereal, magic missile from anyone that has it plus your new orb of force or Resilient Sphere (on the horse) They need a standard action to dismiss the Ethereal Jaunt so you get 1 attack before they attack. Magic Missile does an average of 17 points of damage. Orb of Force does an average of 35. Assuming you strike first and one Magic Missile gets through SR, that's 53 damage-more than half the HP of one Deathknight. If the Resilient Sphere is your choice instead and the horse fails its save (remember, it has no items and it uses its own saves and SR, not the Deathknight's) then you've immobilised half the opposition in one blow.

[Serpentine]

Hmm. I think you have 3 options:
1. Ambush. Find a place that suits you, where you can block them in. Set up traps if you can - even if it's "I lie in wait up here with my big rock until they pass underneath". Your minotaur and any others who don't have a hope of doing any damage should do their best to act as distractions, and don't forget that (if I recall correctly) you can Aid Another with attacking and defending, too. Come up with a plan, and stick to it.
2. Skirmish. As above, but with ready escape and regrouping plans.
With either of these, make sure the fight is on your terms.
3. Run away. Splitting up would probably be best. If you can leave traps behind, jolly good. Hide your tracks as best you can, keep on moving. If you split up into, say, 2 groups, then either one group will get off scot-free and the other, unfortunately, probably have to take them on on their own, or each will have one guy to deal with, in which case, if they can't just run, they could set up ambushes and skirmishes as above.

I've never been in anything like this situation, though, so these are just vague suggestions.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Does the mage have access to limited wish for a heal spell? or is that only 5th level cleric spells you can do like that...

forcewall is a good idea for those who can't do a thing, or a way to trap one for a while and deal with the other.

Read the rules on grappling...that might be your best bet.

anti-magic might also be a blessing...if they are unable to use their spells and don't get any special abilities, your melee potential can chop on down.

Summon monster spells...abuse the hell out of them...the more some summoned monsters can keep them busy, the less you need to deal with.

Magic circle against evil...use it.

globe of invulnerability...it will at least stop the fireballs...a big problem with death knights...nothing you can do against the power word kill...just pray.

Disarm might work, but don't count on it.

[shadow_archmagi]

Intesting.. so if you trap one death knight inside a sphere, couldn't the monk just grapple the other one while the party blasts and bashes away at it?

[Roderick_BR]

Cleric: Invest in buffs for the group. Protection from evil, magic vestment, what you can use. Then use Divine Might, Divine Favor, and Righteous Might to make himself a monster.
You: Use AoF spells that can slow them down even on failed saves. Use Save-or-Suck spells to weaken them, and effects that doesn't allow saves, if possible.
Dwarven defender: Tripping weapon to slow down the DK's, so you and the cleric have time to act.
Minotaur Monk: Use grapples. His size will give him huge bonuses against at least one of them. Again, buy time for the casters.
Don't forget that grapples are touch attacks. If possible, cast enlarge person(monster?) on him to give him an additional bonus on grapple. Can he use scrolls? A true strike scroll for the initial attack will help him tons.
Druid/Sorcerer/Psion: Use whatever you have to hinder movement, and find spells that changes the type of damage so you can hurt the DK's.
Rogue: Magic Item Compendium have a neat effect be added to ghost touch weapons. For a +1 cost (added to the +1 from ghost touch), sneak attacks affects undead. Other than that, I don't know.

Try to attract them to small rooms where they'll be forced to dismount. Small doors won't work much because you said their horses can go ethereal.
Walls of force and forcecage can help keeping one DK off while you fight the other.
Use common itens like holy water, tanglefoot bags, nets, and even smokesticks (true see dosen't work on smoke). I'd suggest thunderstone, but they can easily pass the Fort Save DC15.

[Epic_Wizard]

I checked out the idea of hitting the Nightmare with the sphere spell and I think that will work. Even if they are ex-Paladins and/or Deathknights their mount still wouldn't get the Cha bonus to saves and a Deathknight really doesn't have very good base saves let alone the Nightmare which are about 3 worse. Also the SR wouldn't apply to the Nightmare either.

If at all possible I would also suggest sticking something nasty into the sphere with the Deathknight before it goes up so that he can't try and dispel it. A Swarm would be good since he would be taking damage and would have to make a serious concentration check to try and cast spells. As for the psion ask him what powers he has access to and what his Power Points per day are. It doesn't matter if you understand the answers some of us do.

I would also suggest setting up some quick traps while you wait. A symbol spell if you have em would be great since several of those have effects that can hit Ethereal foes. If you have access to Summon spells then I suggest that you summon a healer if possible before you rest for new spells. While the summon certainly won't last 12 hours the healing will help a great deal. Oh yeah the druid's Wild Shape is a big asset here. Have him try and trip or bull rush one of the Deathknights off his horse when he is in his largest possible form. You then have to deal with the Nightmare individually from the Deathknight but then the Deathknight loses his mobility advantage and can no longer go Ethereal.

Oh yeah and you can Dismiss the Nightmares. I was just looking and they are Extraplanar ^_^ This will get rid of the Nightmare provided it is not Ethereal at the time since no creature is extraplanar on a Transitive plane. Their lousy will saves and the higher than normal save dice for the Dismissal spell means that not only can you remove one or both of the mounts you can also sent the Deathknights crashing and prone. ^_^

[Roderick_BR]

Ack, I just remembered one thing. If the DKs have blackguard levels, and the nightmares are fiendish servants, they can share their saving throws! Again, try to find ways to dismount them to stand a chance.

[Starbuck_II]

The DKs have ghost touch weapons and force armor, so they can hit us without penalty while still retaining their full armor bonus. Their ride skill is maxed so attacking these mounts is like trying to hit an AC 50+ thanks to their Mounted Combat feat.

- They have no arcane buffs on them, so dispel magic is at a loss here. They do have some true-seeing ability but that really doesn't matter to our group regardless.

Cast Dispel magic on the weapon! It is dispelled for a couple rounds. Than they cannot use it to hurt you as magical (it becomes masterwork so any ghosttouch plans are ruined).


- The cannot be polymorphed, or effected by lightning damage. We tried a disintegrate, but we do not know if it hurt them or not.

Disintegrate always works if got past SR.


- Their saving throws may not be phenomenal, but they have made any save we've thrown their way (low 20s on average we assume per modifier). On top of that, they have Spell Resistance of 28. Our sorcerer and psion can break that, but are powerless to effect them when they are ethereal.

Dispel Ethernal Jaunt if spell-like or a spell. Unless Supernatural. So you canm end the etheralness.


- They have relatively low hit points (less than 100 each) due to only having hit dice and no Con score. Despite this, we could only eek out so much damage that could actually effect them, on top of any healing ability they might have.

Healing? You mean inflict spells since undead, right?

But yes, disintegrate can work only if fails SR, but can work. Power Word Spells have no Save and hp limit (as they have low hps)...

Glitterdust will blind the creature if it fails saves, failing that you can see them if they try to hide.

Grease if not etheral will also make them fall down go prone.

[Ramos]

For each of its saving throws, the servant uses either its own base save bonus or the blackguard’s, whichever is higher. The servant applies its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any other bonuses on saves that the blackguard might have.

So, no problem there-and blackguard reflex save is a bad save anyway.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Statistically, a group of 4 PCs should be able to take on a single CR 15 monster (the Nightmares aren't a tremendous bonus, being relatively weak, even if they're buffed from the blackguard levels). If it comes down to a good ol' fashioned brawl, use your main advantage: numbers. The fewer Spell Resistance spells, the better. Pile everything onto one of them and hope to kill him quick. Also, DO NOT try to stunning fist them. Deathknights (being undead) are immune to stunning, and they can just 'Mounted Combat' your attack into missing their mounts.

I think the main issue is lack of average melee power. Other than the dwarven defender, the other meleeers seem to be lacking (you mentioned that neither of them can hope to hit the DKs' armor class with any consistency). The rogue will bring little to the fight combat wise (no sneak attacks, unless he has some ability that lets him) so load him up with useful scrolls or wands. Also, if the monkataur can grapple one of them, everyone should concentrate on taking down the nightmare (on its own, it should go down pretty quickly).

[Methedras]

Clearly the largest problem is Smite Good so your PC must stab a buddy and become immune :P

[Triaxx]

My initial instinct would be to retreat, dropping traps, and things, Glyph of Warding, or Skull traps.

Do you have access to Enlarge Person? Give the Dwarven Defender a blast of Resist Energy (Fire). If you want to go that route, using Protection from Magic on him might work better. Use Enlarge Person on the Monk-o-Taur (I'll have to remember that one.) so he has an advantage if he tries to grapple the DK. If not, Bull's Strength could improve his chance to hit.

Find out the other forms the Druid has access to, how does his Cohort eat magic, and does his Familiar have any tricks up it's sleeve? Also, what is everyone riding? What race is the Rogue, and what version of the Minotaur is being used? The druid might want to convert a spell into summoning an Elemental as a distraction.

Consider this as a course of action, mount all the close fighters, you, the Defender, the Monk-o-Taur, and the Druid, with lances. Arrange them so you have a clear straight line to each of them. Put the Dwarf behind them, off to one side, so either they ignore him, and go after the party, or split up. If they split, so much the better. The Dwarf is in for a world of pain, but you can concentrate all your power on the remaining target. Use the mounted charge, and the double damage of the lance to do as much damage as possible. Double damage will give you a chance of piercing DR. Give the Monk-o-Taur a blast of Bull's Strength. If the rogue is finessing his weapon(s), give him a shot of Cat's Grace. Let the Sorceror, the Psion and the Rogue if he just can't hit them, use Magic Missile and whatever force damage the Psion has. The druid's Cohort could be given a wand of Magic Missile, and either put with the Rogue, or stationed with the Dwarf. The Animal Companion is a bit of a wild card. What size is it? What HP does it have? Can it make AoO's? Can it even hurt the DK's?

Also, while the DK's are immune to lightning, the mounts may well not be. A good jolt of lightning might be enough to take them out of the fight, and leave the DK's running along behind you.

What domains does that cleric have? You might also consider Dimensional Anchor. It'll stop at least one of them from going Ethereal. Stoneskin is also useful for the squishier characters, like the sorceror, or your Champion.

[Toliudar]

Once you get your cleric back, Dimensional anchor becomes his friend, to keep at least one of the knights in place where you can beat on him.

Avoid spells with saves wherever you can, clearly. Orb of force, as mentioned previously, would be great if you can lay your hands on it in some form.

If the sorcerer is not being effective in damage-dealing, then maybe he can use other spells to help channel the battle. The DK's invulnerabilities and ability to slip away through etherealness seem to be your biggest problems in this regard.

Know that you know the enemy, hopefully the druid and cleric will be able to shift some of their focus onto buffing the front-liners so that you up your chances to actually make effective contact.

[DraPrime]

Here's a strategy that has never failed me (mostly).

Go for a full on insane suicidal attack.

If you just give it EVERYTHING you have you'll beat them, although a few of you might die. If only 1 of you survives, well then have fun carrying a bunch of corpses.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Clearly the largest problem is Smite Good so your PC must stab a buddy and become immune :P

Oh man... just got a crazy evil idea: have the entire party kill the cohort and become evil. That removes smite good from the equation.

"And they were forced to eat the cohort... And there was much rejoicing - YAY!!"

[CabbageTheif]

we are going to run through a Scooby Doo Plan: split up, retreat, then ambush

step 1: the minotaur, rogue, and you are their bait, because of speed and reflex saves. you stand out in the open with the rest hidden, get their attention, and then run like crazy. there will be a spot previously picked out, where

step 2: the psion, DD, dragonthing, and sorcerer are above on the roof of a building with a few barrels full of water that the dragonything has previously blessed. you dump the holy water on them, dealing a good amount of damage, and then

step 3: clean up whats left. the dragonything and DD jump down and kick butt while the sorcerer and psion stay up top and blast or buff, whichever is most appropriate. the bait will, at this time, either grapple, cast, or whatever you do best to deal damage.

the preparation: you will need to find barrels, an ideal location, have the druid cast create water into them multiple times then bless, the sorcerer should buff the bait as best as possible.

the finally: you pull off the skull and say "old man Johnson!!?" to which the DK will reply with "i was hoping to kill you all and keep the XP for myself. and i would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you meddling PC's and your stupid animal companion!"

[Triaxx]

Evil thought. Three Orbs of Force will kill the DK. Get two scrolls of it, and make it your forth level pick. You, the Rogue and Cohort all blast away with it. It should manage to kill it in a single turn.

[Alleine]

Well, for the psion it sounds like he's a Kineticist, but maybe not. I know I like to blow stuff up when I'm a psion no matter what.

14th level? Goooood :smallbiggrin:
There's a lot he could do, depending on his powers. One thing you'll definitely want to ask him about is inflict pain, if he has it. If he can get past SR, thats an automatic -2 to attack rolls, -4 if they fail the save. Other than that, have him spam damage powers, unfortunately there aren't many that don't have a save or SR. Most have both.

For your soft, squishy types, get them flying if you can. I don't know much about DK's or their mounts, but flight outta get you some safety for a little bit. Try to set up holy water traps, and use those wonderful mundane items! Tanglefoot bags and smokesticks. They'll work wonders... if they work.

[Yrnes]

Wow guys! I appreciate all the help so far! I'll go over some tactics you listed just so I'm clear here, and clarify some other points.

Our cleric will be out of commission for the fight, so unfortunately we do not have access to his abilities. It just turns out we need to get to the city to find an NPC capable of ressurecting him and we don't have that time.

We assumed ghost touch hit ethereal creatures from the material and vice versa, and our DM isn't likely going to change that for our rebuttal fight against them. We have access to enough ghost touch enhancers now though so that shouldn't be a problem.

We only have access to items worth up to 800gp in the small dungeon village, so the forth level scrolls sound yummy. We'll make sure to load up on them.

These nightmares are a forgotten realms variant, so I do not know what their Reflex saves are like- in fact I'm not sure if they have SR or not either. They can fly however, so I am aware of that.

As far as tactics you guys suggested I'll make sure our team looks into these:

- Make use of Orb of Force and Resilient Sphere (the latter of which targeting the mounts to capture both it and the DK)
- Use the monk to grapple one and take the mount out of commission
- Have the rogue load up on force effecting - no SR/save stuff (scrolls/wands etc)
- Learn to love targeted dispel magic from our psion and sorcerer.
- Magic circle v evil.
- Bulls strength potions

This is ALL fantastic stuff guys! We are a mixed bag of casual players or 3.0ers so we don't know a lot of this stuff, in fact nearly all of the books we use are in the possession of our DM so we don't get a chance to research this stuff on our own.

Keep the ideas coming, we really really appreciate it!
Yrnes

[herrhauptmann]

Triaxx, the rogue is a whispergnome. They get a silence ability of 3+Cha bonus I think, the ability to take the feat 'extra silence' for an extra 3 uses a day. ALso to take 'silencing strike' every melee sneak attack causes a silence spell to center on victim, no save. So aside from UMD, that can be the rogue's help to the battle, assuming the DK's need to speak to cast their spells, can you can keep them away from the party casters after they've been silenced.

Also, whisper gnomes get a +8 to hide and +4 to move silently as racial abilities.

[Dairun Cates]

Here's a strategy that has never failed me (mostly).

Go for a full on insane suicidal attack.

If you just give it EVERYTHING you have you'll beat them, although a few of you might die. If only 1 of you survives, well then have fun carrying a bunch of corpses.

I unfortunately have to endorse this strategy as I've failed to ever have a character die on me... even when I'm trying. It really ruins the "go out in a blaze of glory" appeal if you fail the "go out" part.

[DraPrime]

I unfortunately have to endorse this strategy as I've failed to ever have a character die on me... even when I'm trying.
You're either incredibly lucky or have a DM that fudges his rolls to keep characters from dying. I've had a good 15 character deaths (most of them got rezzed).

[Dairun Cates]

You're either incredibly lucky or have a DM that fudges his rolls to keep characters from dying. I've had a good 15 character deaths (most of them got rezzed).

That would probably be the work of my friend "the dice of improbability". It's a legendary artifact in our group that rolls the ABSOLUTE most unlikely result at any given time where it's either funny or awesome. Mostly, this means I botch against mooks and crit like crazy against final bosses.

Aside from that huge caveat, it's a matter of using every effect in a battle to your advantage. Use your smaller numbers to coordinate attacks more effectively. Consider the environment around you. Locate crucial weaknesses in strategies and formations. Isolate your foes and strike quickly. Take risks. Just cause I want to go out in a blaze of glory doesn't mean I'm going to literally commit suicide over it.

Either way, considering the damage I do end up taking, I doubt it's fudging. As a GM myself, I know the taletell signs of dice fudging. I guess it just gives me a good enough edge to take out my opponents before they take me out.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Triaxx, the rogue is a whispergnome. They get a silence ability of 3+Cha bonus I think, the ability to take the feat 'extra silence' for an extra 3 uses a day. ALso to take 'silencing strike' every melee sneak attack causes a silence spell to center on victim, no save. So aside from UMD, that can be the rogue's help to the battle, assuming the DK's need to speak to cast their spells, can you can keep them away from the party casters after they've been silenced.

Also, whisper gnomes get a +8 to hide and +4 to move silently as racial abilities.

How does their ability work on something that can't be sneak attacked? Also, the rogue will have a tough time hitting the DKs' AC.

[Triaxx]

I completely forgot Holy Water. Even without a Cleric, buy several bottles, and pour them on some boulders turned into a rockslide. Then as the DK's pass under, drop the boulders on them. The holy water does damage in addition to the damage the boulders themselves do.

That Rogue might be helpful if you can put him into position before hand, then sneak attack the mounts. If the Ethereal Jaunt Variant is a spell-like ability it would be stopped by silence wouldn't it? Or am I thinking of a house rule?

Speaking of which are there any house rules?

[Dairun Cates]

I completely forgot Holy Water. Even without a Cleric, buy several bottles, and pour them on some boulders turned into a rockslide. Then as the DK's pass under, drop the boulders on them. The holy water does damage in addition to the damage the boulders themselves do.

That Rogue might be helpful if you can put him into position before hand, then sneak attack the mounts. If the Ethereal Jaunt Variant is a spell-like ability it would be stopped by silence wouldn't it? Or am I thinking of a house rule?

Speaking of which are there any house rules?

I'd imagine after that, "No holy water covered boulders" would be one.

[Yrnes]

Our only major house rule is that our DM will buff any monster's attack bonus so they can hit even our highest AC'd member on their first attack with a 10+:smallmad:

Thus making the "A" in "AC" stand for arbitrary

Thanks
Yrnes

[Ralfarius]

Our only major house rule is that our DM will buff any monster's attack bonus so they can hit even our highest AC'd member on their first attack with a 10+:smallmad:

Thus making the "A" in "AC" stand for arbitrary

Thanks
Yrnes
Wat.

No, seriously. Wat?

[Triaxx]

:smalleek: Okay, new plan.

Two of you get rope, one of you get's a blind fold, and the rest get one swing with the DMG after you've tied him up. *kidding*

Seriously though, why would you agree to that houserule? Nevermind, I'm sure you had a reason. That is a touch annoying, even if it completely invalidates AC stacking. Makes Monks worthless though.

Hmm... that doesn't really change things, but it's one to :smalleek: over.

[Yrnes]

Lol I was just saying it seems like he can hit our ridiculously high ACs without trying.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Our only major house rule is that our DM will buff any monster's attack bonus so they can hit even our highest AC'd member on their first attack with a 10+:smallmad:

Thus making the "A" in "AC" stand for arbitrary

Thanks
Yrnes

wow...how the hell does that happen...with the insane abilities of some monsters of comparable level, how on earth do any of your party have enough AC to beat those +40 attack bonuses?!?!?

Do your guys roll 60+ ac when buffed?!? maybe you should give some examples of what gear you guys have and how much funds are at your disposal...BTW...can the mage summon a strong enough outsider that they have enough levels in cleric to raise dead? Perhaps some other type of healing?

[Sornjss Lichdom]

Grappling

Force Spells

Bottle Neck

Grease

HOLY WATER

Rogue Set Traps

Magic Users Set Traps

Create Lines, Fighters in front, with magic users behind either slinging Force Spells or Buffs. Forget about save or suck spells. You can't really risk waisting a spell effect.

Always-Always have an escape route.

[Alex12]

Explosive Runes. Even Ethereal creatures are affected by Abjuration and Force effects. ER is both. Better yet? No save if they're in the same square, and they detonate if tempered with. Getting shot = tampered with, as does getting caught in the blast of another detonating ER. Carpet the area you expect the DKs to come through with them, and instruct everyone in the party so they can get through. When they get through, shoot them. If they come through someplace else, lure them through that area and let 'er rip.

[Sornjss Lichdom]

I like the explosive runes thing.

Put them on pieces of paper. Put the paper in a narrow tunnel.

Drop a fireball into the area as they get there.


BOOOM!!!!

[Just Alex]

Spamming Control Undead could result in hilarity. Yeah, it'd have to get past some tough SR and saves, but if you get a lucky SR roll to start, that spell will always work on that target.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Go with command undead. Less actual control, but it would get one out of the fight, and it uses a lower-level slot. If you can make the Cha check, you can even get it to take out it's buddy. Then just make it read a BoER and you're good to go.

[Alex12]

If the Psion knows Twin Power, Twinned Augmented Ego Whip.
2d4 Cha damage per Ego Whip. Will for half (minimum 1) Twinning means it hits them twice.

[Epic_Wizard]

Ack, I just remembered one thing. If the DKs have blackguard levels, and the nightmares are fiendish servants, they can share their saving throws! Again, try to find ways to dismount them to stand a chance.

The Nightmare's can't be Fiendish Servants because they aren't on the list of things that can be a Deathknight's Fiendish Servant.

In other words the "Hit the Nightmares with restricting spells" idea still words.

As for the explosive runes thing they will only explode if read or if someone fails at removing them with Dispel Magic or Erase. If you have another character than could cast the area version of Dispel Magic then your good as they simply purposefully fail the check and detonate the runes.