3rd Ed How do you pull a heist on an overpowered, arrogant, paranoid, Wizard? [Archive]

AvatarVecna

2022-07-17, 01:17 AM

So! Asking for a friend! I, uh, my friend I mean, needs to get a team into Mordenkainen's inner sanctum without him knowing, lift a magical artifact that will, due to it's very nature, make him IMMEDIATELY aware that it has been deactivated, and get the team out safely WITH the artifact intact, AND prevent all immediate, short, and medium-term repercussions from Mordy. Anyone have any, uh. Advice, for this? Asking for a friend. Yea.

Without knowledge of the particular defenses Mord has against people taking his stuff (beyond whatever alarm system he has for informing him if people do so), all I can really give is general advice. Personally, I think getting in and nabbing the artifact will be relatively straightforward, but getting out and avoiding his retribution or efforts to regain the stolen property will be far more difficult. Getting out is gonna depend on what kind of traps are there to prevent you.

About the only thing I can concretely say is that, to avoid consequences, you need to ensure he's not coming after you. This either means preventing him from knowing about the theft at all, or prevent from knowing that you are the thieves. The former can be accomplished by using the Wish spell (per rules on Savage Species pg 150) to grant somebody the Vecna-Blooded template (MMV pg 66-67). One 9th lvl slot, one standard action, and one DC 40 Spellcraft check later...

Cloak of Mystery (Su): All knowledge of the Vecna-blooded creature fades from the world. Its original name, its deeds before becoming Vecna-blooded, and so forth, disappear from memory. Only Vecna and the Vecna-blooded creature retain this knowledge. A Vecna-blooded creature gains immunity to all divination spells cast against it or cast to learn information about it. Such divination fails to reveal any information. The Vecna-blooded creature immediately learns the name, appearance, and location of the caster who attempted the divination.

Unlike other god-blooded abilities, the Vecna-blooded creature retains this special quality after it loses other abilities from this template.

EDIT: The other thing that comes to mind: there's an Eberron PrC (the Silver Key) which has a capstone that lets them enter extradimensional areas they would normally be barred from (like Mordenkainen's Mansion). It's pretty tied to the setting lore, though, so might be hard to get a Silver Key and Mordenkainen into the same universe.

Segev

2022-07-17, 01:41 AM

A crucial piece to this is knowing exactly what about the artifact's nature will alert Mordenkainen when it is deactivated.

Gavinfoxx

2022-07-17, 01:45 AM

A crucial piece to this is knowing exactly what about the artifact's nature will alert Mordenkainen when it is deactivated.

Well, uh, you see, Mordenkainen's tower is about the only place on Greyhawk that has a relatively 'tame' region of 'yea, you can't scry or teleport into this' without it being associated with some weird wild magic or anything, so it's probably the only known, active, functional Weirdstone on Oerth... And, uh, my friend kind of needs a Weirdstone for...things. Besides, Mordy can just make another, it's not like it's an actual Artifact!

And the whole defensive field going down in a six mile radius around his home would be pretty hard to miss!

AvatarVecna

2022-07-17, 02:08 AM

So, your two options are...

1) Perform a burglary job on one of the most powerful and paranoid people in the setting, in such a way that it'll be a good while before you face any consequences for you and the people who pulled the robbery alongside you.

2) Buy a thing with money. Or craft it yourself.

If you've got anywhere near the personal power or charop chops necessary to try and rob a paranoid epic wizard who's got decades of prep time on you, you've also almost certainly got the ability to buy or craft this item.

Gavinfoxx

2022-07-17, 02:22 AM

The problem is it's unique, in use, no one is explaining how to make a copy, and it's not for sale...

AvatarVecna

2022-07-17, 02:34 AM

The problem is it's unique, in use, no one is explaining how to make a copy, and it's not for sale...

I mean if the DM has made changes to the setting such that this uncommon but not unique item that lots of powerful casters (including other epic casters) have a vested interest in acquiring are no longer craftable or purchaseable, then yeah that's a much harder setup. But by default it sure looks like they can be crafted and just straight-up purchased.

Good luck pulling your epic heist.

AvatarVecna

2022-07-17, 02:37 AM

Have you considered bargaining with a genie for a wish? Like, not Planar Binding, more Plane Shift and then offering a giant pile of money in exchange for an item worth nowhere near what the pile of money asks for? Genie Wishes can make basically any non-artifact regardless of price. And there's an arbitrary number of genies, so there should be some looking to sell their wishes.

Biggus

2022-07-17, 02:42 AM

An additional problem: you can't deactivate it, so it won't be hard for him to detect if he comes within 6 miles of it...

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Weirdstone

AvatarVecna

2022-07-17, 03:02 AM

An additional problem: you can't deactivate it, so it won't be hard for him to detect if he comes within 6 miles of it...

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Weirdstone

Wiki isn't a rulebook. PFtF, FRCS, and MoF don't mention anything about such a deactivation requirement (surprisingly, couldn't even find mention of weirdstones at all in the latter two). Not saying such a requirement doesn't exist somewhere, since it does seem like a pretty good idea, just saying that I'm not finding an actual book source of it. Might be something from the novels?

spectralphoenix

2022-07-17, 03:32 AM

Either way, you could presumably still shut it down for a few rounds with Dispel Magic. Maybe Plane Shift it somewhere with a strong flowing time trait, study it enough to learn to make your own, then Plane Shift back and plant the original in the treasure room of some third party. Hopefully by the time Mordenkainen catches up to it, you're out of the picture.

Melcar

2022-07-17, 11:18 AM

Without knowledge of the particular defenses Mord has against people taking his stuff (beyond whatever alarm system he has for informing him if people do so), all I can really give is general advice. Personally, I think getting in and nabbing the artifact will be relatively straightforward, but getting out and avoiding his retribution or efforts to regain the stolen property will be far more difficult. Getting out is gonna depend on what kind of traps are there to prevent you.

About the only thing I can concretely say is that, to avoid consequences, you need to ensure he's not coming after you. This either means preventing him from knowing about the theft at all, or prevent from knowing that you are the thieves. The former can be accomplished by using the Wish spell (per rules on Savage Species pg 150) to grant somebody the Vecna-Blooded template (MMV pg 66-67). One 9th lvl slot, one standard action, and one DC 40 Spellcraft check later...

EDIT: The other thing that comes to mind: there's an Eberron PrC (the Silver Key) which has a capstone that lets them enter extradimensional areas they would normally be barred from (like Mordenkainen's Mansion). It's pretty tied to the setting lore, though, so might be hard to get a Silver Key and Mordenkainen into the same universe.

I know this is off topic, and I apologize or that, but I have to ask, how does Cloak of Mystery work in practice? Lets say you have an epic level wizard, with Third Eye Conseal, and mind-blank, etc. - ergo well immune to any information or memory altering magical effects. How can this person forget about the Vecna Blooded individual? The ability (Cloak of mystery) erases memory from individuals so clearly that is an effect which affects others... its also clearly a [mind-affecting] ability - whether or not it has the tag. And clearly there should be some sort of save...

Also, it only mentions world, so I assume being on a different planet/ plane will negate it. Likewise, it being a (Su) it doesn't affect people in a AMZ.

My point is simply this... How do you practically implement such an ability in-game without having to resort to stupid DM fiat? It seems like an ability that is simply incorrectly written and doesn't follow established rules... What am I missing here?

sleepyphoenixx

2022-07-17, 11:54 AM

My point is simply this... How do you practically implement such an ability in-game without having to resort to stupid DM fiat? It seems like an ability that is simply incorrectly written and doesn't follow established rules... What am I missing here?
Specific trumps general. It's written the way it is and not mind-affecting because you aren't supposed to be able to defend against it.
It's not supposed to follow established rules, it's supposed to make you really unfindable. That's the entire point of the template.

redking

2022-07-17, 11:56 AM

Tough request. All I can think of is the miracle spell. You can request what is pretty much divine intervention.

Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following.

*Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
*Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.
*Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.

In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused.

Seems like a request to steal the artifact could possibly be granted.

AvatarVecna

2022-07-17, 12:29 PM

I know this is off topic, and I apologize or that, but I have to ask, how does Cloak of Mystery work in practice? Lets say you have an epic level wizard, with Third Eye Conseal, and mind-blank, etc. - ergo well immune to any information or memory altering magical effects. How can this person forget about the Vecna Blooded individual? The ability (Cloak of mystery) erases memory from individuals so clearly that is an effect which affects others... its also clearly a [mind-affecting] ability - whether or not it has the tag. And clearly there should be some sort of save...

Also, it only mentions world, so I assume being on a different planet/ plane will negate it. Likewise, it being a (Su) it doesn't affect people in a AMZ.

My point is simply this... How do you practically implement such an ability in-game without having to resort to stupid DM fiat? It seems like an ability that is simply incorrectly written and doesn't follow established rules... What am I missing here?

"I've got like a dozen sources of MA immunity, and I've got several books about this person currently being held in the middle of a dead magic zone. Exactly how are you getting rid of my internal and external knowledge of this person?"

https://i.imgflip.com/6n1v55.jpg

The answer is "deity BS". Doesn't say it's MA, and if it did, it would probably specify that it bypasses MA. Sucks to suck, by which I mean "sucks to not be a god".

EDIT: Or, as the case may be, "sucks that Wish has a way of bypassing MA immunity, apparently".

Jack_Simth

2022-07-17, 12:53 PM

Answer to the OP: Like any other dungeon delve.

No, seriously.

By making the item impossible for you to reproduce, your DM has turned it into a plot point. Probably with a tower/dungeon planned out, with many hours of prep work. You're not supposed to bypass it, which is what you'll get advice on here.

Gavinfoxx

2022-07-17, 01:10 PM

I mean if the DM has made changes to the setting such that this uncommon but not unique item that lots of powerful casters (including other epic casters) have a vested interest in acquiring are no longer craftable or purchaseable, then yeah that's a much harder setup. But by default it sure looks like they can be crafted and just straight-up purchased.

Good luck pulling your epic heist.

I think the idea is that, there AREN'T many epic casters, and Mordy is probably the only level 20, crafting-focused, Generalist Wizard/Archmage/Mage of the Arcane Order in the setting, and other members of the Circle of Eight have other 'noticeable' charop builds, but they're like *the only ones who do*, and are some of the few people with access to level 7+ Wizard spells. There's a pretty big gap in implied power level of the setting in the various Greyhawk materials and the implied power level of the setting from the myriad 3.5e stuff that isn't specifically Living Greyhawk. So it's not technically unique in the sense that he COULD make another, but it is unique in that he hasn't yet... and he has no reason to; it's functioning to secure his home.

And first, we need to defeat the effect that makes his home hard to find!

Melcar

2022-07-17, 03:27 PM

Specific trumps general. It's written the way it is and not mind-affecting because you aren't supposed to be able to defend against it.
It's not supposed to follow established rules, it's supposed to make you really unfindable. That's the entire point of the template.

Right, I just don't like it. Personally I think there needs to be some logical consistencies in the game rules and for the most part there is. This however seem to me to break that logic by applying a world wide mind affecting effect that somehow is not [mind-affecting] which offers no save... Consequently, its going on my ban list - or more precisely going forward, if it ever comes up, its going to be a [mind-affecting] effect which warrants a save. The DC will be based on Vecnas write-up in Deities and Demigods. Probably his DC for level 9 spells, but I'll figure that out it it ever becomes relevant. But you answered my question, so thank you for that! :)

"I've got like a dozen sources of MA immunity, and I've got several books about this person currently being held in the middle of a dead magic zone. Exactly how are you getting rid of my internal and external knowledge of this person?"

https://i.imgflip.com/6n1v55.jpg

The answer is "deity BS". Doesn't say it's MA, and if it did, it would probably specify that it bypasses MA. Sucks to suck, by which I mean "sucks to not be a god".

EDIT: Or, as the case may be, "sucks that Wish has a way of bypassing MA immunity, apparently".

Indeed, it can only work by DM fiat. Its exactly the situation you bring up, that makes this ability completely stupid. How indeed is this ability reaching into my mind deleting information? How it it erasing text in my books - in my highly secret, warded library - in books this being has no chance of knowing I have, nor where I might be keeping them, or what said books might contain? - apparently needing no line of effect, offering no save and and breaching any magical - or otherwise - barrier except AMZ (it is a (Su) after all).

So, as I've mentioned above, if and when this ever comes up in any of my future games, it will not work as written!

Segev

2022-07-17, 05:59 PM

Does your friend have any preexisting relationship with Mordenkainen? Hostile? Friendly? Mordy wouldn't know him from any other commoner he might turn into a sheep during a magical experiment in a random town?

If your friend only needs it temporarily and could potentially give it back afterwards, perhaps he could ask to borrow it. Offer money, or questing services. Epic level wizards love sending lower-level adventurers to do quests that they are too busy for.

If Mordenkainen can just make a new one, maybe he'll even sell it to you(r friend). Or make one for you(r friend), for the right bargain.

How long is it needed for your (friend's) use? Is it needed in a particular place, or do(es) you(r friend) just need to be near it to do the thing with it? Will it be expended/destroyed?

A fast-time plane that the stone could be taken to might work, or just finding a way to get to it and do the thing while Mordenkainen is away might work, as long as you get it back before Mordy realizes it's gone or notices you(r friend) is there.

Maybe get hired on as an apprentice?

AvatarVecna

2022-07-17, 08:18 PM

Indeed, it can only work by DM fiat.

No. DM Fiat is not code for "rules I don't like", it's code for "rules the DM made up". The DM didn't make this up. It is in the rulebook, straight forward, clear as crystal. It doesn't work how you think it should work, it doesn't work how you think is fair, it doesn't work how you think is consistent with the rest of the rule set. Tough ****. It's RAW. You're free to houserule it to work differently in your games, of course.

tiercel

2022-07-17, 10:57 PM

My first impulse is that successfully burgling one of the most powerful NPCs in the campaign setting and getting away with it sounds… kinda like nigh-end of the campaign stuff to me. I’d go so far as to say that any plan to steal from Mordy that doesn’t have a not-hopeless contingency plan for successfully fighting him isn’t really a plan, it’s a death wish. (Problem here: even if Mord isn’t using an optimized build, he has resources, and canonically Circle of Eight folks like to use clones for backups as well.)

My second impulse is that Segev above is right about gaining access to the weirdstone - if you can do it in a friendly or at least temporary way, you’re a lot more likely to not experience apocalyptic consequences.

My third impulse is that if Mord really is “arrogant” to the hilt and this needs to be an actual theft, that some social engineering is your friend — not just to plan the actual heist (though you must know what you’re up against, lest you find yourself bumbling around inside a Tomb of Horrors while Mord munches popcorn while watching on a crystal ball) but also to convince Mord that he already knows who’s guilty well before the action goes down.

The best way to beat divinations and various magic and doom is if Mord decides to never use them. This means you’re probably looking at as much a long con as the heist itself: you’ll need to know who Mord does, or would, consider an enemy — and one capable enough to pull off the heist, interested in doing so, and able to withstand the consequences.

Ideally, you want to manipulate this foe into actually taking some action against Mord, build and confirm his suspicion, and then use the enemy of your Mord to cover for your actual heist.

This will obviously take some doing, and you should probably plan on Mord having Int: Yes (plus aforementioned resources), so you’ll need to set the hook pretty hard and still have a contingency plan, but hopefully at worst it should buy you some time to get set.

KoDT69

2022-07-17, 11:33 PM

I looked up the item and your character can't deactivate it and take it. It would have to be destroyed to take it down. Somebody already shared a link to what I found above.

If I were the DM tho, I would certainly allow you to try, but with a warning that it's nearly impossible. You wanna steal from Generic NPC Wizard Level 20 that the DM created, ok maybe that's gonna be possible. But you're talking about Mordenkainen. This is a historically relevant dude. There's spells with his name on them at the core of the game. You don't become legendary by getting fleeced by lower level dudes.

Melcar

2022-07-18, 02:00 AM

No. DM Fiat is not code for "rules I don't like", it's code for "rules the DM made up". The DM didn't make this up. It is in the rulebook, straight forward, clear as crystal. It doesn't work how you think it should work, it doesn't work how you think is fair, it doesn't work how you think is consistent with the rest of the rule set. Tough ****. It's RAW. You're free to houserule it to work differently in your games, of course.

Whoa dude... I miss spoke sorry, no need to get angry about it :)

But, indeed I don't think it works as it should, nor fair, nor consistant with the rest of the ruleset. And I will indeed be houseruling it otherwise in my games if it ever come up... Because how exactly is this ability getting rid of my internal and external knowledge of this person? I need some game mechanics explanation on how/what magic affects me and the books I have, and how they are breaching all of my defences. How they know I have the kind of information I have and how they alter the texts in my books, when behind countless guard and wards... Unless there is some good explanation for ignoring the millions of gp used to aquire all that, its not happening in my games! :)

Firest Kathon

2022-07-18, 07:23 AM

Wiki isn't a rulebook. PFtF, FRCS, and MoF don't mention anything about such a deactivation requirement (surprisingly, couldn't even find mention of weirdstones at all in the latter two). Not saying such a requirement doesn't exist somewhere, since it does seem like a pretty good idea, just saying that I'm not finding an actual book source of it. Might be something from the novels?

May I direct your eyes to the footnote on the wiki page, which literally gives the source of these rules? It's the AD&D rulebook "Volo's Guide to All Things Magical".

Gavinfoxx

2022-07-18, 08:49 AM

As long as it doesn't contradict the 3.5e rules, I'm pretty sure the DM will use the AD&D lore for activating and deactivating it; after all, they're using a lot of older edition lore for the existing status quo of the setting!

AvatarVecna

2022-07-18, 11:48 AM

May I direct your eyes to the footnote on the wiki page, which literally gives the source of these rules? It's the AD&D rulebook "Volo's Guide to All Things Magical".

No, I saw the footnote. Issue is, AD&D mechanics are irrelevant to 3.5, the same way that Shadowrun mechanics and GURPS mechanics are irrelevant to 3.5 games. I was more looking for a rules quote from the current century. If it's not in a 3.5 rulebook, then while it may be traditionally how weirdstones work, it's still a houserule.

Segev

2022-07-18, 01:12 PM

No, I saw the footnote. Issue is, AD&D mechanics are irrelevant to 3.5, the same way that Shadowrun mechanics and GURPS mechanics are irrelevant to 3.5 games. I was more looking for a rules quote from the current century. If it's not in a 3.5 rulebook, then while it may be traditionally how weirdstones work, it's still a houserule.

I think the more important question than whether it's a house rule or not is whether it is the rule in the house in which the OP is playing, since this isn't a theoretical discussion, but rather a request for help with a specific campaign.

AvatarVecna

2022-07-18, 01:27 PM

I think the more important question than whether it's a house rule or not is whether it is the rule in the house in which the OP is playing, since this isn't a theoretical discussion, but rather a request for help with a specific campaign.

I mean, you're not wrong. But if the DM forbids the party from crafting a new one, buying one, or deactivating an existing one, that doesn't sound like the DM is setting up the heist of the century. It sounds like the DM is saying "you dont get to have a weirdstone".

sleepyphoenixx

2022-07-18, 02:01 PM

icefractal

2022-07-18, 04:52 PM

I mean, you're not wrong. But if the DM forbids the party from crafting a new one, buying one, or deactivating an existing one, that doesn't sound like the DM is setting up the heist of the century. It sounds like the DM is saying "you dont get to have a weirdstone".
Buy one from who? The fact that buying magic items is possible in general doesn't mean that there are infinite vaults filled with every possible item waiting for purchase. If there's only one of something in the world, and the owner doesn't want to sell it, you're not buying it.

Now make one themselves? That sounds promising. But probably more lengthy of a process than stealing it. If the creator was an Epic caster, it's entirely possible that's a requirement for making one. Even if not, it seems like it'd require research at least on par with creating a new spell.

And sneaking in to study it would be useful for reverse-engineering it, so there's some synergy between the heist and "build it ourselves" plans.

AvatarVecna

2022-07-18, 08:02 PM

Buy one from who? The fact that buying magic items is possible in general doesn't mean that there are infinite vaults filled with every possible item waiting for purchase. If there's only one of something in the world, and the owner doesn't want to sell it, you're not buying it.

Now make one themselves? That sounds promising. But probably more lengthy of a process than stealing it. If the creator was an Epic caster, it's entirely possible that's a requirement for making one. Even if not, it seems like it'd require research at least on par with creating a new spell.

And sneaking in to study it would be useful for reverse-engineering it, so there's some synergy between the heist and "build it ourselves" plans.

By default, actually yeah, there are an arbitrary number of them in existence. The planes are infinite, with infinite denizens. A fraction of that infinite people is capable of crafting the items. A fraction of that infinite people has chosen to do so. A fraction of that infinite have some they want to sell, for whatever reason. And that fraction is still an infinite number. But the infinite supply and infinite demand of the infinite multiverse balance out to the prices in the books, broadly speaking. The exception is stuff that's explicitly unique, which weirdstones explicitly are not. It might be a fact in OP's particular game, but in general? It's just an item. It's a very powerful item, it's a very expensive item, it's a very useful item, but they're out there to be found. Robbing the kind of high-epic merchant that has a bunch of them for sale is probably about as bad an idea as robbing a high-epic wizard who happens to have one, but those merchants are out there. Probably in Union, or other planar metropolises.

If you want an answer for "how to buy one" that doesn't involve the above handwaving, just pay a genie for it. Genie wishes are capable of conjuring into being items of theoretically infinite value. You don't have to do a Planar Binding - you could, but you don't have to. You could just pop over to the City Of Brass (for example) and offer money to an Efreeti if they'll use one of their daily wishes on your behalf.

If you don't wanna use wishes of arbitrary power (that require you to depend on somebody else's power), you could always just wish for one yourself. 250k on the market means the XP cost would be 10k. That means wishing for such an item yourself will cost 25k. Now, spending XP on spells/items don't work if they would make you go down a level, but if you gain enough XP to level, you can instead choose to spend the XP on item creation or on casting spells with XP costs. in this case, our hypothetical Wizard 17 is at 152000 XP (1000 short of lvl 18). He researches, prepares for, and fights a CR 19 monster (probably some big dumb brute with few options, to make things easier), and that's 10200 XP gained. He could use that to level up, or he could spend 25k XP wishing up a Weirdstone. No epic levels or unsafe wishes or genies or friends needed.

icefractal

2022-07-19, 12:14 AM

By default, actually yeah, there are an arbitrary number of them in existence. The planes are infinite, with infinite denizens. A fraction of that infinite people is capable of crafting the items. A fraction of that infinite people has chosen to do so. A fraction of that infinite have some they want to sell, for whatever reason. And that fraction is still an infinite number. I've never run a campaign with an infinite large (populated) setting, and I've never played in a game where that was the case and it mattered.

Truly infinite settings are crap for most purposes.* For one thing, it makes the PCs (and all their foes, and their allies, their gods, etc) trivially pointless. Oh, you finally achieved great power, took down the demon empire, and brought back your sister from total annihilation? Meh, a few planes over there's a 200th level character who could literally do all that in his sleep and doesn't give a **** about any of it.

For another thing, the presence of infinite numbers of powerful characters, and the fact that travel between planes is possible, means that most of the planes should really be battlefronts in various wars between stupidly-powerful forces that trivially stomp over any local defenders.

No, only the power of the market can cross the infinite planes? Well that sounds like a highly-specific setting; I'm not going to say it's an inherently bad idea, but calling it the default seems like a real stretch. Even then, it makes any item-based objectives rather unimpressive. Weirdstones? Yeah, everyone rich has those, nothing to really brag about. If the OP was in such a setting, then "get Mordenkainen's Weirdstone" wouldn't have been an important thing in the first place.

And as far as Efreet Wishes and such - sure, in an optimization exercise, you just do that. This thread appears to be questions for an actual campaign though, so loopholes that invalid the entire premise are probably not on the table.

* Does this mean I'm calling the ELH bad? Yes, yes I am. It's got some good material to scavenge (mostly the monsters), but if used as written it actually makes anything you do in the game less epic.

Gavinfoxx

2022-07-19, 01:07 AM

Is the idea that a specific magic item might not be available, due to the fact that there AREN'T that many 20th level casters (required to make the item), available to make them, and that, maybe possibly, only ONE caster has invented the method of making them in living memory, and also that he's using the one he made to secure his OWN wizard's tower and isn't especially interested in sharing the secrets of how to make his fancy defense rock that he invested lifeforce to make, with others... so hard to fathom? This requires 20th level casters, and other people might have gotten by with other types of wards, even if they supposedly 'could' make one!

Melcar

2022-07-19, 01:43 AM

I've never run a campaign with an infinite large (populated) setting, and I've never played in a game where that was the case and it mattered.

Truly infinite settings are crap for most purposes.* For one thing, it makes the PCs (and all their foes, and their allies, their gods, etc) trivially pointless. Oh, you finally achieved great power, took down the demon empire, and brought back your sister from total annihilation? Meh, a few planes over there's a 200th level character who could literally do all that in his sleep and doesn't give a **** about any of it.

For another thing, the presence of infinite numbers of powerful characters, and the fact that travel between planes is possible, means that most of the planes should really be battlefronts in various wars between stupidly-powerful forces that trivially stomp over any local defenders.

No, only the power of the market can cross the infinite planes? Well that sounds like a highly-specific setting; I'm not going to say it's an inherently bad idea, but calling it the default seems like a real stretch. Even then, it makes any item-based objectives rather unimpressive. Weirdstones? Yeah, everyone rich has those, nothing to really brag about. If the OP was in such a setting, then "get Mordenkainen's Weirdstone" wouldn't have been an important thing in the first place.

And as far as Efreet Wishes and such - sure, in an optimization exercise, you just do that. This thread appears to be questions for an actual campaign though, so loopholes that invalid the entire premise are probably not on the table.

* Does this mean I'm calling the ELH bad? Yes, yes I am. It's got some good material to scavenge (mostly the monsters), but if used as written it actually makes anything you do in the game less epic.

The game of D&D is set in a multiverse, where an enormous amount of crystal spheres exists, not to mention an arbitrarily high number of planes. Most, if not all, of these planes are inhabited by intelligent beings… and some of these beings go on to become wizards, and some of those goes on to create magic items. There are about 100 million living in faerun alone, and thats just one continent on the planet Toril. Now multiply that number with all the continents on all the planets in all the crystal spheres plus add all the planes and you get something arbitrarily high - which might as well be infinite!

This is really not up for debate. You can play a game that is set in a small village sure, but the world is canonically set in an infinite multiverse with infinite inhabitants and infinite power levels. What this means is, there are an infinite amount of Weirdstones out there… you just have to look!

icefractal

2022-07-19, 03:53 AM

The game of D&D is set in a multiverse, where an enormous amount of crystal spheres exists, not to mention an arbitrarily high number of planes.

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This is really not up for debate. You can play a game that is set in a small village sure, but the world is canonically set in an infinite multiverse with infinite inhabitants and infinite power levels. What this means is, there are an infinite amount of Weirdstones out there… you just have to look!Canonically in what sense? There are a number of different D&D settings, most of which make no mention of crystal spheres or infinite planes (other than layers of the abyss).

Some of the published ones do mention alternate material planes, but interaction with those planes in published material is near zero, and anecdotally I haven't seen them come up in play either.

Plus, you know, the whole thing where a given campaign could use a homebrew setting. You can say that Forgotten Realms canonically has or doesn't have something, but you can't meaningfully say that D&D as a whole does.

Melcar

2022-07-19, 05:21 AM

Canonically in what sense? There are a number of different D&D settings, most of which make no mention of crystal spheres or infinite planes (other than layers of the abyss).

Some of the published ones do mention alternate material planes, but interaction with those planes in published material is near zero, and anecdotally I haven't seen them come up in play either.

Plus, you know, the whole thing where a given campaign could use a homebrew setting. You can say that Forgotten Realms canonically has or doesn't have something, but you can't meaningfully say that D&D as a whole does.

When I say canonically I mean what is written in the official published material! Realm Space, Grey Space and Krynn Space alle inhabit their own crystal sphere in the multiverse. So those three settings exist in the multiverse canonically!

You can decide that it’s single planet/ plane with nothing else, just as you can say orcs doesn’t exist but they do canonically! So too does the multiverse! So too does Elminster whether you like it or not! Open Manual of the Planes or Planar Handbook, it’s all right there!