A Glamour Bard to work alongside darkness

[Schlendrian]

Hey folks,

i am currently playing a Halfelf (SCAG Variant with Booming Blade) Glamour Bard in a Tomb of Annihilation campaign alongside 3 other players at level 4:

My Party:

VHuman (GWM) Paladin 2/ Hexblade 2
Lizardfolk Mercy Monk
Gnome Artificer Alchemist

My stats are: Str 8; Dex 14; Con 14; Int 10; Wis 12; Cha 18 (with one of the racial +1 currently in Dex but the DM allowed me to keep that floating, so could go into Con or Wis depending on future halffeats or multiclasses.
My feat at lvl4 was Feytouched (Bless)
Known spells are:
Cantrips: Minor Illusion; Vicious Mockery and Booming Blade
1st Level: Healing Word, Dissonant Whispers; Unseen Servant; Detect Magic; Bless
2nd level: Shatter; Aid; Misty Step; Lesser Restoration

I choose the subclass because we have no other heavy way of getting TempHP. Want to help buff up the others. The Hexadin told me he will continue with Warlock for at least 3 levels and will do the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo, which will make it quite hard to target him with both Mantle of Inspiration as well as Bless.
So thinking about how to continue the build i want to go level 5 bard because that level is great for Glamour bards and then one of the following options:
1. one level of fighter for Fighting style Blindsight, medium armor and shield proficiency
2. 3-4 levels of warlock (archfey for theme) with devilssight as well + a good attack cantrip
3. continue bard and try to play around it or maybe he or i will die before that (with no ressurection and other stuff it seems quite likely)

What do you think about those options? Did i miss another option? Did i forget to include some info?
All official sources are allowed.

[meandean]

Warlock. Although Fighter would help you protect your own self better, I think your party is more in need of damage-dealing. Moreover, you don't want this dude to have to stand within 10 feet of you and block everyone else's vision.

[solidork]

Depending on how you use it, Darkness can be "toggled" off by completely concealing the targeted object. He'll have a hand free since he's using GWM, so it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to tuck the darkness target into a pocket or pouch with an item interaction if he gets in trouble and needs to be targeted.

Another thing you can do is to try and go before him, so that you can at least start off combat with Mantle of Inspiration + Bless. Alert is a pretty good feat on its own, so you're not radically diverting from your planned concept just to accommodate one guy.

I haven't seen the Darkness + Devils Sight combo at the table in 5e, but I came up with a similar build in GURPS a long time ago and abandoned the strategy after one combat since it was hugely inconvenient for the rest of the players. Theres a nonzero chance that the same thing is going to happen here.

[Gignere]

FYI OP RAW bless doesn’t require seeing the target, it saids you just choose three targets in range.

[tiornys]

An option that appears to have been overlooked: take Eldritch Adept to get Devil's Sight. That comes online one level later than Bard 5/Warlock 2 but may be less disruptive to your build, especially since you can always swap it over to Eldritch Mind/Mask of Many Faces/Misty Visions if the Devil's Sight ever becomes less useful.

[MrStabby]

Yeah, this is going to be hugely inconvenient for you. The bard spell list, more than most, relies on seeing your enemies.

I see three options really. Firstly ask your team mate to not cast darkness.

Secondly move to a character that doesn't worry about darkness.

Thirdly get devil's sight yourself.

Devil's sight will negate the nerf the warlock put on you, but to make it actually be a bonus you probably want to be making attacks so picking it up through a two level dip in warlock will probably give the most benefit. Then continue on as bard, a couple of levels behind but with pretty decent damage.

[Schlendrian]

Warlock. Although Fighter would help you protect your own self better, I think your party is more in need of damage-dealing. Moreover, you don't want this dude to have to stand within 10 feet of you and block everyone else's vision.

Well the good part is that we can reposition with the Mantle, but yeah, i see your point on damage. I have no idea how the monk will fight yet (he and i entered with new chars after the old ones died)


Depending on how you use it, Darkness can be "toggled" off by completely concealing the targeted object. He'll have a hand free since he's using GWM, so it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to tuck the darkness target into a pocket or pouch with an item interaction if he gets in trouble and needs to be targeted.
I brought that up, but am unsure how well we all fare wrt coordination (we are not to combatsavy :D)



Another thing you can do is to try and go before him, so that you can at least start off combat with Mantle of Inspiration + Bless. Alert is a pretty good feat on its own, so you're not radically diverting from your planned concept just to accommodate one guy.

i might even need to put it on us before encounters, probably, that + @gigneres comment might help with the problem


I haven't seen the Darkness + Devils Sight combo at the table in 5e, but I came up with a similar build in GURPS a long time ago and abandoned the strategy after one combat since it was hugely inconvenient for the rest of the players. Theres a nonzero chance that the same thing is going to happen here.
i have not seen or played with a darkness build, that is why i am very unsure how it will play out


An option that appears to have been overlooked: take Eldritch Adept to get Devil's Sight. That comes online one level later than Bard 5/Warlock 2 but may be less disruptive to your build, especially since you can always swap it over to Eldritch Mind/Mask of Many Faces/Misty Visions if the Devil's Sight ever becomes less useful.
thanks i hadn't considered that, was sure i would go warcaster (maybe +2 cha) at next opportunity, but i might need to think about that.


Yeah, this is going to be hugely inconvenient for you. The bard spell list, more than most, relies on seeing your enemies.

I see three options really. Firstly ask your team mate to not cast darkness.

Secondly move to a character that doesn't worry about darkness.

Thirdly get devil's sight yourself.

Devil's sight will negate the nerf the warlock put on you, but to make it actually be a bonus you probably want to be making attacks so picking it up through a two level dip in warlock will probably give the most benefit. Then continue on as bard, a couple of levels behind but with pretty decent damage.
Thanks for the many roads you opened up. We talked about it, but he seems pretty excited about the build, so i didnt bring myself to ask him to not do that (would have loved if he had told me before i made my new char though^^)
As this is a fresh char i dont really want to move on, but the module might help there
Do you think warlock 3 is not good enough with the higher spell slots and pact? I assume agonizing blast and devils sight would be the invocations of choice?

Also for more context, the DM told us to expect the campaign to end at level 11 or 12.

[meandean]

Warlock 2 is enough, especially if you're only going up to 11 or 12 anyway. I would prefer that over Eldritch Adept because I do think Eldritch + Agonizing Blast will add a lot of value to your party.

(When possible, use the darkness yourself to get advantage on your Eldritch Blasts.)

[Keravath]

Darkness + Devils sight is a workable tactic and has less impact on the rest of the party than you might think if the vision rules are applied as written. (Some DMs have issues with that though and just don't understand them).

If a character with darkness up covers the target then, RAW, other characters can't see the target but the target also can't see them - this results in attacks both ways being straight rolls because the advantage caused by attacking a target that can't see you is canceled by the disadvantage of attacking a target you can't see. Also, RAW, a creature's location is known (if you already know it) unless it takes the hide action. A creature that you can't see, who moves, remains known unless the DM decides that the environment is such that you couldn't possibly detect where they are (hidden is unseen and unheard) in which case the creature could become automatically hidden - however, that goes both ways. Darkness also prevents the casting of spells that require you to see the target - which can be inconvenient for some spell casting classes.

The bottom line is that weapon attacks and attack roll spells are not significantly affected by Darkness unless a DM uses homebrewed vision rules.

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Your most effective option if the paladin really wants to go this route is to take two levels of warlock, picking up the eldritch blast cantrip and the Agonizing blast and Devils sight invocations. (I have a 16th level character (14 lore bard/2 hexblade) that did this and it has worked really well in my opinion).

Your best choice is likely 2 levels of hexblade for the armor and shield as well as the shield spell. It really increases your survivability if attacked but you can get some of the benefits with a different warlock patron. Obtaining agonizing blast will significantly contribute to the damage output of your party.

At this point, I would definitely go to bard 5 before multiclassing.

From a role play perspective, you could play it out as your character learning something from the paladin and realizing the benefits that can be found with the right patron.

------

Another option for Devils sight is the Eldritch Adept feat but in some ways I think feats are likely harder to come by for your character than a couple of levels.

[tiornys]

I agree that Hexblade 2 is the best overall option--gaining major improvements to your defense (both the armor/shield upgrade AND the Shield spell) and a major upgrade to your at-will offense alongside the Darkness synergy is a nice return on the 2 level investment. With that said, I do think Eldritch Adept is a better option than 3-4 levels of non-Hexblade Warlock. 2 levels of non-Hexblade Warlock vs. Eldritch Adept is a very close call--and frankly both probably lose to Fighter 1.

[LudicSavant]

Hey folks,

i am currently playing a Halfelf (SCAG Variant with Booming Blade) Glamour Bard in a Tomb of Annihilation campaign alongside 3 other players at level 4:

My Party:

VHuman (GWM) Paladin 2/ Hexblade 2
Lizardfolk Mercy Monk
Gnome Artificer Alchemist

My stats are: Str 8; Dex 14; Con 14; Int 10; Wis 12; Cha 18 (with one of the racial +1 currently in Dex but the DM allowed me to keep that floating, so could go into Con or Wis depending on future halffeats or multiclasses.
My feat at lvl4 was Feytouched (Bless)
Known spells are:
Cantrips: Minor Illusion; Vicious Mockery and Booming Blade
1st Level: Healing Word, Dissonant Whispers; Unseen Servant; Detect Magic; Bless
2nd level: Shatter; Aid; Misty Step; Lesser Restoration

I choose the subclass because we have no other heavy way of getting TempHP. Want to help buff up the others. The Hexadin told me he will continue with Warlock for at least 3 levels and will do the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo, which will make it quite hard to target him with both Mantle of Inspiration as well as Bless.
So thinking about how to continue the build i want to go level 5 bard because that level is great for Glamour bards and then one of the following options:
1. one level of fighter for Fighting style Blindsight, medium armor and shield proficiency
2. 3-4 levels of warlock (archfey for theme) with devilssight as well + a good attack cantrip
3. continue bard and try to play around it or maybe he or i will die before that (with no ressurection and other stuff it seems quite likely)

What do you think about those options? Did i miss another option? Did i forget to include some info?
All official sources are allowed.

You could also just take the Eldritch Adept feat and stay single classed. This would allow you to see through Darkness to a range of 120 feet.

Yet another option is to just have someone (say, your local Cleric if you have one) upcast Continual Flame on a downtime day. You then have a cheap, permanent item that illuminates (but does not dispel) magical Darkness, that you can cover/uncover/move as needed to see, while still keeping enemies in the dark on their turns. Darkness itself can be cast on an object which can be covered/uncovered/moved, too.

I would advise against the Blind-Fighting style option -- the range is too short for your needs.

[MrStabby]

Thanks for the many roads you opened up. We talked about it, but he seems pretty excited about the build, so i didnt bring myself to ask him to not do that (would have loved if he had told me before i made my new char though^^)
As this is a fresh char i dont really want to move on, but the module might help there
Do you think warlock 3 is not good enough with the higher spell slots and pact? I assume agonizing blast and devils sight would be the invocations of choice?

Also for more context, the DM told us to expect the campaign to end at level 11 or 12.

Yeah, I think just 2 levels is good. The only exception might be if you have a 2nd level spell you want to cast a lot and you get a lot of short rests. If you were to be fighting knights in heavy armour and loved heat metal then thing might be a reason. Getting those two level 1 spells per short rest is pretty awesome but honestly, I think I would prefer anoher level of bard over a 3rd level of warlock. Third level can get you Pact of the Tome, which will cover your party's ritual casting needs quite well so I gues there is that...

And yeah, devil's sight and agonising blast for the invocations. With darkness down and you can dish out some decent damage this way. If you go for a patron like Hexblade you get hexblade's curse which will work well with this advantage.

I don't see the fey pact giving you much mechanically. Fathomless might be good - tentacle of the deep will keep your damage solid (and uses scaling with proficiency bonus is nice), and swimming/breathing underwater might be quite useful in some campaigns.

Genie could work as a good all round patron, utility and some damage a first level. Undead warlock is also very solid - form of dread should keep you quite happy and you don't have proficiency in wisdom saves and here isn't a paladin in the pary so shrugging of fear might be very useful.

[Schlendrian]

thanks for your input, meandean


Darkness + Devils sight is a workable tactic and has less impact on the rest of the party than you might think if the vision rules are applied as written. (Some DMs have issues with that though and just don't understand them).

If a character with darkness up covers the target then, RAW, other characters can't see the target but the target also can't see them - this results in attacks both ways being straight rolls because the advantage caused by attacking a target that can't see you is canceled by the disadvantage of attacking a target you can't see. Also, RAW, a creature's location is known (if you already know it) unless it takes the hide action. A creature that you can't see, who moves, remains known unless the DM decides that the environment is such that you couldn't possibly detect where they are (hidden is unseen and unheard) in which case the creature could become automatically hidden - however, that goes both ways. Darkness also prevents the casting of spells that require you to see the target - which can be inconvenient for some spell casting classes.

The bottom line is that weapon attacks and attack roll spells are not significantly affected by Darkness unless a DM uses homebrewed vision rules.

thanks for that additional explanation :)


I agree that Hexblade 2 is the best overall option--gaining major improvements to your defense (both the armor/shield upgrade AND the Shield spell) and a major upgrade to your at-will offense alongside the Darkness synergy is a nice return on the 2 level investment. With that said, I do think Eldritch Adept is a better option than 3-4 levels of non-Hexblade Warlock. 2 levels of non-Hexblade Warlock vs. Eldritch Adept is a very close call--and frankly both probably lose to Fighter 1.
i know hexblade is mechanically the best dip, but there is multiple reasons i dont want to take it: 1. the pally already has that patron 2. i dislike it because it seems like easy mode (i tend to want to play chars that are optimized, but always with some sort of challenge to it. Hexblade lacks this for me) 3. the character is so tied to the fey side of the world that anything aside of archfey feels wrong (i know its really weak)


You could also just take the Eldritch Adept feat and stay single classed. This would allow you to see through Darkness to a range of 120 feet.

Yet another option is to just have someone (say, your local Cleric if you have one) upcast Continual Flame on a downtime day. You then have a cheap, permanent item that illuminates (but does not dispel) magical Darkness, that you can cover/uncover/move as needed to see, while still keeping enemies in the dark on their turns. Darkness itself can be cast on an object which can be covered/uncovered/moved, too.

I would advise against the Blind-Fighting style option -- the range is too short for your needs.
Thank you for your input, currently continual flame is not an option yet
I assume you dislike the fighting style because i need to walk into the darkness to really make it work?


Yeah, I think just 2 levels is good. The only exception might be if you have a 2nd level spell you want to cast a lot and you get a lot of short rests. If you were to be fighting knights in heavy armour and loved heat metal then thing might be a reason. Getting those two level 1 spells per short rest is pretty awesome but honestly, I think I would prefer anoher level of bard over a 3rd level of warlock. Third level can get you Pact of the Tome, which will cover your party's ritual casting needs quite well so I gues there is that...

And yeah, devil's sight and agonising blast for the invocations. With darkness down and you can dish out some decent damage this way. If you go for a patron like Hexblade you get hexblade's curse which will work well with this advantage.

I don't see the fey pact giving you much mechanically. Fathomless might be good - tentacle of the deep will keep your damage solid (and uses scaling with proficiency bonus is nice), and swimming/breathing underwater might be quite useful in some campaigns.

Genie could work as a good all round patron, utility and some damage a first level. Undead warlock is also very solid - form of dread should keep you quite happy and you don't have proficiency in wisdom saves and here isn't a paladin in the pary so shrugging of fear might be very useful.

thanks, the third level decision can be a bit down the road, but for now it seems the bard route might be stronger then :/

regarding patron, as said above unless something really big comes by to make another patron possible i would choose archfey because of how the char is

[LudicSavant]

Thank you for your input, currently continual flame is not an option yet
I assume you dislike the fighting style because i need to walk into the darkness to really make it work?

If positioning is king, then a Glamour Bard is the king of the kings, exerting extraordinary control over the movement of the entire party relative to their foes.

To take full advantage of this, it helps to be able to see farther than 5 feet. Ergo, I recommend the solutions that allow for greater range of awareness.

[Schlendrian]

got it, thanks