OOTS #1262 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Thales]

Oona is a complete weirdo. She's wonderful.

[link3710]

I love Oona so much. Bridge eating dolphins in my next campaign perhaps?

[Starknight62040]

I love the last line.

[carborundum]

So, hands up who thinks Oona is placing little-bald-cape-man in a different village to the one he's placing himself in

[snowblizz]

So, hands up who thinks Oona is placing little-bald-cape-man in a different village to the one he's placing himself in

*Raises both hands*

[super dark33]

I imagine Oona had to explain the concept of metaphore to various monsters and other bugbears quite a lot of times

[Peelee]

Oona is a complete weirdo. She's wonderful.

I think she's a fantastic portrayal of low-int, high-wis.

[dancrilis]

Oona is great.

Seperately some of the monsters had shoes and swords, wonder what they were seem to have been purple.

[brian 333]

Am I the only one seeing the danger here?

So far Redcloak has been focused on an abstract plan for an abstract result. He has not really focused on the outcome, or what comes next.

In baseball terms, he's trying to get a home run. Great, but that comes with a greater risk of striking out. Oona is opening his mind to the idea that a bunt might be the better strategy. Take the out and let a runner score.

So long as Redcloak's goal was imaginary, he could imagine any result he wanted. Being forced to look at the situation in concrete terms may result in his taking a strategy that yields concrete results.

And that scares me.

[hroþila]

I love how insightful Oona is. Redcloak probably won't have spoken too openly about any of this in the short time he's been in the village, but Oona sees right through him just from what she already knew of him and from her eavesdropping on his conversation with Durkon and Minrah. Unfortunately for her, the dolphins are coming.

Which might make her and the bugbears potential allies to the Order?

[ArcaneStomper]

The fact that redcloak takes it as an insult and immediately attempts to defend against the claim that his ego is a factor tells me that his ego is very much a factor and exactly which village he's going to be living in.

[Leliel]

So, hands up who thinks Oona is placing little-bald-cape-man in a different village to the one he's placing himself in

No bet. Pretty obvious to everyone but little-bald-cape-man.

For the record, Oona is definitely being mined for inspiration for my Eberron game. I have an idea for a refuge in Droaam, and Oona's book-dumb philosophy-smart viewpoint is perfect for the intellectual parts of the Frontier of Monsters.

[pendell]

I hereby declare the launch of the SS Oona x Redcloak ! All aboard!

*Makes foghorn noises as of a large steamer leaving dock*

ETA: More seriously, if I understand what she's getting at, she's saying eventually Redcloak wants to believe he's right all along and that he cares about goblins. There may come a point ... and why would it be mentioned if it wasn't foreshadowing? ... that he has to choose between admitting error and sacrificing the happiness of the goblin people.

Oona believes he will admit error rather than double down on a failed Plan. Which might have been foreshadowed all the way back in Azure City when he had his moment of clarity about the hobgoblins, stopped wasting their lives and went on to win the war.

I hope he makes the right choice, but time will tell.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Shining Wrath]

Greyview FTW.:smallbiggrin:
Also, Oona is wiser than Redcloak. And not at all afraid of him, which may mean something about relative power levels. She has no problem telling him he's a egomaniac who will throw all goblins to the ravening jaws of bridge-eating dolphins rather than admit he's wrong about anything, and that she views her job as preventing the moment when he does that.

Which means Oona (and the bugbears) may come in on the side of the Order if Redcloak goes full megalomaniac. Which is probably due any day now.

EDIT:


I hereby declare the launch of the SS Ooona x Redcloak ! All aboard!

*Makes foghorn noises as of a large steamer leaving dock*

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

Redcloak loves Oona just as much as he loves all goblinkind! Which is, about as much as he loved his murdered brother, but he pretends really really hard to himself it's more than that.

[Reboot]

*Raises both hands*

Don't they cancel out each other? :p

[Resileaf]

A more peerless wordsmith than Oona you have never seen.

[Coyote0715]

"There is no escape from cruel flippers of entropy". I think that says it all...

[3SecondCultist]

Redcloak loves Oona just as much as he loves all goblinkind! Which is, about as much as he loved his murdered brother, but he pretends really really hard to himself it's more than that.

Ooof. But yes, 100% agreed with this.

I love the RP approach to high Wis, low Int. What I find fascinating though is that Redcloak almost certainly has a higher Wisdom (it must be at least 19 to cast 9th level spells, right?) and still lacks a critical level of self and situational awareness.

I guess all of the Wisdom in the world doesn’t matter when you have been operating with a fatal blind spot for your entire adventuring career.

[Lord Torath]

ETA: More seriously, if I understand what she's getting at, she's saying eventually Redcloak wants to believe he's right all along and that he cares about goblins. There may come a point ... and why would it be mentioned if it wasn't foreshadowing? ... that he has to choose between admitting error and sacrificing the happiness of the goblin people.

Oona believes he will admit error rather than double down on a failed Plan. Which might have been foreshadowed all the way back in Azure City when he had his moment of clarity about the hobgoblins, stopped wasting their lives and went on to win the war. Really? I got the opposite impression from her. Her desire to keep the dolphins from eating the bridge suggests (to me) that she thinks he's mostly in the "Was Right All Along" village.


Redcloak loves Oona just as much as he loves all goblinkind! Which is, about as much as he loved his murdered brother, but he pretends really really hard to himself it's more than that.See? This is firmly "I Was Right All Along" City Hall kind of stuff. Well said, Shining Wraith!

Edit: Thanks, Rich! Love it!

[H_H_F_F]

12 gods, I love Greyview.


So, hands up who thinks Oona is placing little-bald-cape-man in a different village to the one he's placing himself in

Obviously.

And I find it reassuring that the Giant pretty much just affirmed through a clearly correct character that Redcloak's motivations is largely "I have to believe that I wasn't wrong to kill my brother, which means I have to believe that dialogue won't work and that working with Xykon isn't a mistake."

No jarring difference in how the audience vs the author see the character is coming our way. Whatever the end will be, it will be entrenched in Redcloak's established character flaws.

[Kokopelli Jones]

Cruel Flippers of Entropy is my new band name.

[Rjaye]

Cruel Flippers of Entropy is my new band name.

I would go and see that band.

[Alexandrite]

Redcloak in panel 9 looks like he's having "you might need to disappear later" thoughts.

I don't think Xykon would let another Tsukiko go by without question, though. I'd bet the first one sent up alarm flags already.

[dancrilis]

On consideration a lot of presumedly innocent people living comfortable together in a cave are now dead because The Order lured Team Evil into a cave and hid from them ...

[sihnfahl]

Really? I got the opposite impression from her. Her desire to keep the dolphins from eating the bridge suggests (to me) that she thinks he's mostly in the "Was Right All Along" village.
Well, yes, since he did reject the reasonable options when faced with the knowledge everything is going to burn if he continues with The Plan.


On consideration a lot of presumedly innocent people living comfortable together in a cave are now dead because The Order lured Team Evil into a cave and hid from them ...
Don't forget Serini purposefully put in a lot of monsters in the caves in the first place just for that reason. To kill anyone who entered, or to dissuade those strong enough to beat them by the fact that they seem neverending.

[masamune1]

If Xykon was here he'd be saying that Redcloak already chose what village to live in a LONG time ago.

The one his brother didn't live in.

[Kremlin KOA]

This might be a 'Nixon goes to China' moment.

Where he could not believe the Dwarf Clerics of giving honest data about the situation. Oona is a Gobbo, and an ally.
It might actually get under his defenses.

[Lord Raziere]

Guys I think your misunderstanding Oona's position here. she isn't labeling Redcloak as an egomaniac and that she will definitely join the Right Side when its her time. its her trying to point out to Redcloak in the best terms she knows how he has two priorities: Doing What Is Best For Your People and Being Right. Her position is that most of the time this is fine, but that sometimes you have to admit your wrong to do what is best your people and that trying to prove that your right isn't always what is best for your people.

She is saying she is trying her best to make sure things don't go badly for him, but is sure which one he will choose. This is pretty ambiguous. it could be a threat sure, but given that she is explaining all this hoping that he understands may show its an expression of faith that he will make the right decision. it could be taken both ways.

[The Shadow]

Oona believes he will admit error rather than double down on a failed Plan.

On the contrary. She pretty clearly believes he will double down on the Plan rather than admit he was wrong. She said she wasn't worried because she isn't - she already pretty much knows what his choice will be, so no point in worry.

Her pragmatic response is to fight off the dolphins so he doesn't have to choose.

[Shining Wrath]

12 gods, I love Greyview.



Obviously.

And I find it reassuring that the Giant pretty much just affirmed through a clearly correct character that Redcloak's motivations is largely "I have to believe that I wasn't wrong to kill my brother, which means I have to believe that dialogue won't work and that working with Xykon isn't a mistake."

No jarring difference in how the audience vs the author see the character is coming our way. Whatever the end will be, it will be entrenched in Redcloak's established character flaws.

That's the classic definition of a tragedy - the protagonist is brought down by their own inherent flaws. Redcloak is not our protagonist, and Roy learns from his mistakes and grows, so this story is not a classical tragedy. But it is good writing if you can predict in advance "When the moment comes, Redcloak will make mistakes consistent with inability to admit he's wrong".


Redcloak in panel 9 looks like he's having "you might need to disappear later" thoughts.

I don't think Xykon would let another Tsukiko go by without question, though. I'd bet the first one sent up alarm flags already.

I think we're getting hints that Xykon knows a lot more than he lets on. About MitD, about Redcloak, and so on. How hard would it be for him to learn (or invent) some epic level mind reading spells?

[pendell]

Really? I got the opposite impression from her. Her desire to keep the dolphins from eating the bridge suggests (to me) that she thinks he's mostly in the "Was Right All Along" village.

See? This is firmly "I Was Right All Along" City Hall kind of stuff. Well said, Shining Wraith!

Edit: Thanks, Rich! Love it!

Now that I think about it, I think you're on the right track. Why would she be fighting so hard to protect the bridge if she was already pretty sure Redcloak would choose 'happiness of goblins'?

Reading more closely "Oona is pretty sure which village Redcloak will choose" has a hidden double edge. It probably means she will expect him to choose Right All Along ... but if this was so, why would she say she was "not worried"? Saying it that way implies that she thinks he'll choose happiness of goblins -- despite the fact he's already chosen Right All Along at least once. Which is why the story didn't end in Start of Darkness.

But then ... just because he chose it once, does it therefore follow he will always and ever choose that path? At least once, back in Azure City, he made the other choice, admitting error and refusing to sacrifice more hobgoblin toops.

Time will tell.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[goldenPony]

Damn these light moments are getting heavier!

Oona reminding Redcloak in the final panel that it's all imaginary could look like a joke for the public but IMO considering the collar grab it's her warning him that he's getting out of touch with reality.

I don't think Greywolf and Oona constantly flanking Redcloak on both sides is innocent either, not saying they're going to have an open conflict but clearly the situation is tense.

In fact, there's this little red thread in the strip of Redcloak imagining things and Oona bringing him back to reality.

Looks to me Redcloak is on thin ice considering the menacing comic from Xykon and now this. Everyone has him figured out except himself! Even Durkon and the fun blonde dwarf Minra.

[Fyraltari]

That confirms it, Oona has Reddie all figured out.

Also, 100% sure at least one child bugbear went looking fro the two villages and at one point an it was a whole thing to bring them back to the tribe.

I think she's a fantastic portrayal of low-int, high-wis.
What makes you think she has low Intelligence?

More seriously, if I understand what she's getting at, she's saying eventually Redcloak wants to believe he's right all along and that he cares about goblins. There may come a point ... and why would it be mentioned if it wasn't foreshadowing? ... that he has to choose between admitting error and sacrificing the happiness of the goblin people.
Frankly, he's been there several times already. But there'll come a day where thry will be no more opportunity to step off the train.


Oona believes he will admit error rather than double down on a failed Plan. Which might have been foreshadowed all the way back in Azure City when he had his moment of clarity about the hobgoblins, stopped wasting their lives and went on to win the war.

If that were the case, she wouldn't be trying to fend off the dolphins as long as possible.


I hope he makes the right choice, but time will tell.
Do too.


Redcloak in panel 9 looks like he's having "you might need to disappear later" thoughts.

I don't think Xykon would let another Tsukiko go by without question, though. I'd bet the first one sent up alarm flags already.
He might just do what he did with the spy and the craftsman and just not rescue her she needs healing/saving.

[masamune1]

I think it's worth addressing that Redcloak never thought he had to choose, because he denied that he lived in two villages in the first place- he just lives in one big house that's got room enough for all Goblinkind and his own righteousness.

He might choose "Right-All-Along" village (again)...but in his own mind, he won't be.

Of course, if he is willing to concede that she might be right, he'll try and pass the message over to his god and / or he'll reluctantly agree to work with the Order, maybe even let them know he's got a plan for dealing with Xykon.

....

It won't go well, but that's the breaks.

I imagine that the Dark One is the Mayor of "Right All Along" camp and Redcloak is going to be in for a massive and crushing reality check when he sees that his god is truly just a jerk.

(though now I'm wondering if Redcloak will ascend in the end and become the new God of the Goblins, if enough Goblins and Hobgoblins admire him enough)

[Dame_Mechanus]

Amazing work as always, and still more excellent characterization for Oona. Especially insofar as it pretty strongly states that Oona understands perfectly who Redcloak is - even better than he does, it seems - and isn't working with him because she believes him but because she sees that as her best bet to make him stay protecting all goblins.

She knows he'd sell her down the river in a moment if he thought it would justify his actions up to this point. It's not that she doesn't care about that. She just also realizes that pointing it out to him directly has about a zero percent chance of getting him to actually alter his behavior.

[Shining Wrath]

Now that I think about it, I think you're on the right track. Why would she be fighting so hard to protect the bridge if she was already pretty sure Redcloak would choose 'happiness of goblins'?

Reading more closely "Oona is pretty sure which village Redcloak will choose" has a hidden double edge. It probably means she will expect him to choose Right All Along ... but if this was so, why would she say she was "not worried"? Saying it that way implies that she thinks he'll choose happiness of goblins -- despite the fact he's already chosen Right All Along at least once. Which is why the story didn't end in Start of Darkness.

But then ... just because he chose it once, does it therefore follow he will always and ever choose that path? At least once, back in Azure City, he made the other choice, admitting error and refusing to sacrifice more hobgoblin toops.

Time will tell.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Oona is not worried because Greyview learned cynical fatalism at her knee. If you know Redcloak will betray goblinkind for his own ego, you don't worry about it. It's a fact of life, like not being able to fight the biggest monsters in Monster Hollow unaided or ice being cold. She accepts that if she lets the dolphins eat the bridge, Redcloak will choose his ego, so she fights dolphins with all her might. I wonder what that looks like in practice? Does Oona want to delay Redcloak finding the Gate, too?

Does Oona know the gate is not behind a door, but she's not telling Team Evil because so long as they are exploring behind the doors, the bridge is up and the dolphins are kept at bay?



That confirms it, Oona has Reddie all figured out.

Also, 100% sure at least one child bugbear went looking fro the two villages and at one point an it was a whole thing to bring them back to the tribe.

What makes you think she has low Intelligence?

Frankly, he's been there several times already. But there'll come a day where thry will be no more opportunity to step off the train.



If that were the case, she wouldn't be trying to fend off the dolphins as long as possible.


Do too.


He might just do what he did with the spy and the craftsman and just not rescue her she needs healing/saving.

I think Oona knows that if Redcloak's Plan requires her and her entire village to die miserable deaths, then he'll regret their deaths. Which again makes me wonder if she knows the Gate isn't behind a door (perhaps her people have over time explored behind all of them), and is playing for time?

[skim172]

I wonder - does this mean Oona is preparing her own contingencies in case Redcloak decides to rescind his residence in the Village of 'Doing-Very-Best-for-Goblins'?

Feels like a practical thing to do and Oona seems a practically-minded goblinoid.

[Carl]

Add me to the fan of Oona and Greyview train. Those two need some extra noogies from the fandom.

And yeah she's spot on with Redcloak.

[KorvinStarmast]

So far Redcloak has been focused on an abstract plan for an abstract result. He has not really focused on the outcome, or what comes next.
{snip analogy}
So long as Redcloak's goal was imaginary, he could imagine any result he wanted. Being forced to look at the situation in concrete terms may result in his taking a strategy that yields concrete results.

And that scares me. Not sure why that scares anyone. :smallconfused:

I love how insightful Oona is. Oona is a wise woman, and thus a leader of her village. (Jordan used this literary/story archetype for his Wisdom characters).

Which might make her and the bugbears potential allies to the Order? No.

No bet. Pretty obvious to everyone but little-bald-cape-man. Yes.

Which means Oona (and the bugbears) may come in on the side of the Order if Redcloak goes full megalomaniac. No.

Redcloak loves Oona just as much as he loves all goblinkind! Which is, about as much as he loved his murdered brother, but he pretends really really hard to himself it's more than that. Yes. He is deeply in love with The Plan.

Don't forget Serini purposefully put in a lot of monsters in the caves in the first place just for that reason. To kill anyone who entered, or to dissuade those strong enough to beat them by the fact that they seem neverending. Serini loves monsters so much that she lets them martyr themselves for The Cause - (which is keeping the world intact) - and I think that's a slightly more worthy cause than Redcloak's.

... her trying to point out to Redcloak in the best terms she knows how he has two priorities: Doing What Is Best For Your People and Being Right. Yep.

Her position is that most of the time this is fine, but that sometimes you have to admit your wrong to do what is best your people and that trying to prove that your right isn't always what is best for your people.
Yep number two.
She is saying she is trying her best to make sure things don't go badly for him, but is sure which one he will choose. And we have a Yep hat trick! :smallsmile:

Her pragmatic response is to fight off the dolphins so he doesn't have to choose. She is a Wise Woman, which usually includes a healthy dose of practicality. :smallsmile:

... he just lives in one big house that's got room enough for all Goblinkind and his own righteousness. {snips}
He might choose "Right-All-Along" village (again)...but in his own mind, he won't be.
I like your riff on Oona's analysis there.

As to Greyview: "Even in minds eye, there is no escape from the cruel flippers of entropy"
1. I love it
2. I think that's a subtle foreboding that the dolphins are gonna take down the bridge, no matter how valiantly opposed.
3. I think there's a Horatius at the Bridge joke, or reference, in here somewhere but I'm not able to form it. (Yes, that's where the name Tarquin comes from...)
If the Etruscans crossed the bridge, they would take Rome. Horatius, a young Roman soldier, called to his friends, “Come on! We’ll hold the bridge while the others chop it down.” His friends froze. They were terrified at the thought of facing an entire army. “Then at least chop the bridge down while I hold them off alone,” Horatius pleaded.

He stood on the bridge and faced the Etruscan army alone. “Who among you is brave enough to face a Roman soldier,” he shouted. The Etruscans threw spears at him. But they were some distance away, and the bridge itself gave Horatius protection. Horatius stood firm, fighting like a hero. When the Etruscans tried to cross the narrow bridge, Horatius cut them down. Two of his friends rushed out to help him. Behind them, other young soldiers were frantically sawing at the heavy cords that held the bridge.

Horatius felt the bridge give way. “Go back,” he shouted at his friends. His friends raced for the protection of the walled city. It was hopeless, they thought. One man cannot stop an entire army. Only the gods could save them now. But Horatius was right. The bridge was giving way. As the bridge began to fall, Horatius turned and dived into the Tiber. The gods were with him. He swam back to Rome safely, and received a hero’s welcome.

[The Shadow]

Reading more closely "Oona is pretty sure which village Redcloak will choose" has a hidden double edge. It probably means she will expect him to choose Right All Along ... but if this was so, why would she say she was "not worried"? Saying it that way implies that she thinks he'll choose happiness of goblins -- despite the fact he's already chosen Right All Along at least once.

She says she's not worried because she isn't. There's no point in worrying about a bad event you are certain is going to happen. Notice that while she says she is pretty sure she knows what he'll choose, she doesn't specify which choice that is.

Phrasing it that way, though, let her de-escalate the threat to Redcloak's ego. He was already starting down How-Dare-You Lane, one of the main streets in Right-All-Along.

Oona is very clever. She packs a lot into apparently simple phrases.

[masamune1]

Another thing to consider- Oona never really CARED about "all Goblinkind" in the first place, did she?

She's quite happy just living her own life and focusing on her own tribe without worrying about such bigger, abstract things.

Maybe she's not worried because she honestly feels she has no horse in this race, no matter how much Redcloak insists that she is part of Goblinkind too.

[Resileaf]

Something to note, rather than consider the meaning behind the metaphor, Redcloak's first instinct is to say that dolphins don't eat bridges to pick it apart and discredit it. Oona is very smart to force Redcloak to remain in the metaphor's own universe.

[The Shadow]

(though now I'm wondering if Redcloak will ascend in the end and become the new God of the Goblins, if enough Goblins and Hobgoblins admire him enough)

Now that is a fascinating thought. It seems that mortals who become gods are more or less "stuck" in the outlook they had when they died - gods are made of ideas, after all. Look at the dwarven god who insists on consulting with the clans. (I forget his name.)

If Redcloak does ascend, a lot may depend on what he was thinking and doing when he died - whether he regrets working for the Plan or not. Given that he is likely going to cast a 9th level spell to seal the Gate, I'm somewhat hopeful.

[masamune1]

Something to note, rather than consider the meaning behind the metaphor, Redcloak's first instinct is to say that dolphins don't eat bridges to pick it apart and discredit it. Oona is very smart to force Redcloak to remain in the metaphor's own universe.

Let's you know what village he's currently living in.

[masamune1]

Oona is not worried because Greyview learned cynical fatalism at her knee. If you know Redcloak will betray goblinkind for his own ego, you don't worry about it. It's a fact of life, like not being able to fight the biggest monsters in Monster Hollow unaided or ice being cold. She accepts that if she lets the dolphins eat the bridge, Redcloak will choose his ego, so she fights dolphins with all her might. I wonder what that looks like in practice? Does Oona want to delay Redcloak finding the Gate, too?

Does Oona know the gate is not behind a door, but she's not telling Team Evil because so long as they are exploring behind the doors, the bridge is up and the dolphins are kept at bay?




I think Oona knows that if Redcloak's Plan requires her and her entire village to die miserable deaths, then he'll regret their deaths. Which again makes me wonder if she knows the Gate isn't behind a door (perhaps her people have over time explored behind all of them), and is playing for time?

I mean, if Oona and her people have been living here for a very long time...there is a very good chance she and Serini know each other, and might even be friends.

[The Shadow]

I mean, if Oona and her people have been living here for a very long time...there is a very good chance she and Serini know each other, and might even be friends.

To grasp the possibility is to realize that it must be true. (I wish I'd thought of it myself!) *Of course* she and Serini know each other! Why wouldn't they? That'll be a great reveal later on!

Oona is playing a very interesting game here. I'm now inclined to think she is fully aware that the MitD is marking the doors - she just doesn't care.

[Pablo360]

Oona is not worried because Greyview learned cynical fatalism at her knee. If you know Redcloak will betray goblinkind for his own ego, you don't worry about it. It's a fact of life, like not being able to fight the biggest monsters in Monster Hollow unaided or ice being cold. She accepts that if she lets the dolphins eat the bridge, Redcloak will choose his ego, so she fights dolphins with all her might.

In the words of TeamFourStar:


It’s no use being afraid of the inevitable.

[sihnfahl]

Another thing to consider- Oona never really CARED about "all Goblinkind" in the first place, did she?
Oh, she does. Which is why she's waving the flag that says 'Don't go to the village that destroys the world and kills everyone.'


In the words of TeamFourStar:
"And I am Iron Man."

[jidasfire]

As much as I like this as a staunch analysis of Redcloak's character, I think it's just as important as an analysis of Oona. She has clearly shown from the start that she and her people don't really care about Redcloak's cause in any meaningful way, though she also doesn't seem to have been threatened into working with him. Essentially, given the choice between helping him have it all and seeing her own people sacrificed to his cause as so many goblins and hobgoblins already have been, she makes the practical choice and picks the former. As such, I don't see Oona flipping, no matter how lovable she is.

I have wondered for awhile if Redcloak's fight with Durkon and Minrah might set off a bit of introspection on his part regarding his own hypocrisies, and it seems now that they have. He very much wants to believe that the dwarves are wrong about him, though obviously on some level he knows they're not. Personally I don't trust Redcloak to make the right choices as so far he never has, but it certainly adds an interesting element to his brewing conflicts with both Xykon and the Order. Will we finally see Redcloak's greatest misdeed in the comic proper? Will that precipitate moving in one direction or the other? Remains to be seen but it's interesting all the same.

[Draconi Redfir]

Oona knows the pain of making an analogy and having people take it too literally. i too know this pain, it is something i feel regularly.

You tell someone a fictitious story meant to be used as a simplified example to be used as a comparison for a slightly more complicated issue, and they start picking it apart saying "so and so doesn't do that" "actually this thing would be like this" "that doesn't make any sense" when that's. not. the. point!

[Shining Wrath]

To grasp the possibility is to realize that it must be true. (I wish I'd thought of it myself!) *Of course* she and Serini know each other! Why wouldn't they? That'll be a great reveal later on!

Oona is playing a very interesting game here. I'm now inclined to think she is fully aware that the MitD is marking the doors - she just doesn't care.

I think we're being set up to see that Redcloak, who thinks he's the master schemer with The Plan and smarter than everyone around him - is being played for a fool by everyone around him. Xykon knows more than he lets on, Oona is trying to delay the moment when Redcloak must choose villages, even MitD (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html)is on to his pan-goblinoid propaganda being baloney.

It's an interesting trope - the ego driven "mastermind" who is actually a fool.

[Tundar]

I like Oona, reminds me of Elan.


*Raises both hands*
Hahaha, well played.

[MReav]

I imagine that the Dark One is the Mayor of "Right All Along" camp and Redcloak is going to be in for a massive and crushing reality check when he sees that his god is truly just a jerk.

I wonder what would happen if Redcloak came to understand how gods are the way they are, how belief shapes them, and one of the core foundational beliefs about the origin of goblins is wrong (he'd probably dismiss it like Durkon and Minrah's cognitive inability to accept Thor's explanation about trees).

I also wonder if The Dark One's teachings about goblins being intentionally created as an XP fodder race was because of a cosmic persecution complex (one caused by an unfair system but ultimately one without intent) or if he started that when he was originally ascended to serve as a motivational lie to his people but ended up gaslighting himself into believing it. Or if he knows the real truth but is able to avoid being rewritten by some unspecified means, like how Thor doesn't have an unrelenting hatred of trees despite the dwarves' beliefs.

[The Shadow]

Oh, she does. Which is why she's waving the flag that says 'Don't go to the village that destroys the world and kills everyone.'

It's not so much that she cares about "all goblinkind" as such, it's just that she and her village are part of "all goblinkind" and get just as dead if the world ends.

[The Shadow]

I think we're being set up to see that Redcloak, who thinks he's the master schemer with The Plan and smarter than everyone around him - is being played for a fool by everyone around him. Xykon knows more than he lets on, Oona is trying to delay the moment when Redcloak must choose villages, even MitD (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html)is on to his pan-goblinoid propaganda being baloney.

It's an interesting trope - the ego driven "mastermind" who is actually a fool.

Totally. I can see it now:

Redcloak: "Why didn't you TELL me that you knew Serini all along?!"

Oona: "Little man was not asking Oona. Did not find good time to bring up."

Greyview: "Ignorance is not being bliss, is being slightly less soul-crushing than knowledge."

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I love Oona, she’s cheery, helpful and knowledgeable!


So, hands up who thinks Oona is placing little-bald-cape-man in a different village to the one he's placing himself in

*raises hand*

[brionl]

Huh, now I'm thinking that if Tenzil Kem (https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Tenzil_Kem_(Pre-Zero_Hour)) (Matter Eater Lad) and Dolphin (https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Dolphin_(Prime_Earth)) had a baby...

[Frozenstep]

If Xykon was here he'd be saying that Redcloak already chose what village to live in a LONG time ago.

The one his brother didn't live in.

Emotional crit. Ouch, I could imagine him doing it, too...

[Bedinsis]

I am reminded of Miko. She worked on the side of Good largely suspected born more out of an ego and when the gods themselves went down to tell her "No, your actions are not within the parameters of Good." she doubled down on her choices, taking permanent resident in Right-All-Along.

Though she was obviously never living in the Doing-Very-Best-for-Goblins, her other village was something like Doing-Lawful-Good-Deeds. Or Following-The-Paladin-Code.

[TheNecrocomicon]

That's the classic definition of a tragedy - the protagonist is brought down by their own inherent flaws. Redcloak is not our protagonist, and Roy learns from his mistakes and grows, so this story is not a classical tragedy. But it is good writing if you can predict in advance "When the moment comes, Redcloak will make mistakes consistent with inability to admit he's wrong".

This, basically. And the more he keeps doubling down on his plan for the sake of his ego, the more he keeps driving himself towards destruction in the narrative, rather than redemption.

In fact, I have to wonder if more reasonable goblinoids like Oona, or Jirix, et al. are being set up in the plot as the various successors to lead or care for the goblinoid races if, or more likely when, Redcloak completes his self-destruction. I mean, someone's going to have to inherit the Crimson Mantle, since as a godly artifact it's not just going to sit around. Imagine it on the more pragmatic shoulders of someone like Oona?


It's not so much that she cares about "all goblinkind" as such, it's just that she and her village are part of "all goblinkind" and get just as dead if the world ends.

This. In fact, this seems to me as more fodder for her being some shade of True Neutral to Chaotic Neutral rather than an evil alignment. Oona and Greyview are just looking out for their own people and helping them have a reasonably happy life away from outside interference. Redcloak, on the other hand, actively wants to grind non-goblinoid races into death or destitution under his people's jackboots to elevate goblinoids over them under the guise of "equality".

[Psyren]

I think she's a fantastic portrayal of low-int, high-wis.

Ditto.

I can also imagine her getting used to this method of explaining METAPHORS to a bunch of other Bugbears!

[hungrycrow]

I think some people are missing that in Oona's metaphor the bridge is still intact. She still thinks Redcloak is right about the Plan and that it will help goblinkind; but unlike Redcloak is willing to admit that might not be true. She doesn't believe the surprisingly insightful dwarves and won't jump ship until she gets more information.

Also, given how forceful she is about explaining the concept of a metaphor, I wonder if she has had problems with people taking them too literally before.

[P. G. Macer]

Excellent comic!

Put me on the Oona hype train as well.

I’m honestly surprised Redcloak let Oona grab him. That seems like the kind of thing he wouldn’t let slide (except maybe from Xykon for The Plan’s sake). Wonder if that’ll bite back at her later; I hope not.

[Kamunami]

All this talk of Oona maybe or maybe not switching sides, either way I'm dying to see an opportunity for her to have an actual conversation with some of the Order. They've had fruitful arguments with FAR less reasonable people in the past (heck they pretty much just finished one), so I can only imagine what insights would come of a thorough discussion of where they stand relative to each other.

In fact, I almost have to concede that it could never happen in the narrative, because it's almost too easy. She might be too willing to have a nice chat for the story to accommodate, if you know what I mean, and the consequences can only be good as far as I can see, even if she didn't give up her allegiance. I'd say she and them definitely can't ever get that delicious dialogue going on, if it weren't for the fact that Rich is wonderful at surprising me.

[malakim2099]

Always a fun moment when the ranger has higher Wisdom than the cleric. :smallbiggrin:

[Kantaki]

Heh. Oona and Greyview are definitely the wisest characters in Team Evil.
Followed by Xykon and MitD.
Well, applied wisdom.
Redcloak just has a high number on his character sheet.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Always a fun moment when the ranger has higher Wisdom than the cleric. :smallbiggrin:


Well, applied wisdom.
Redcloak just has a high number on his character sheet.

Exactly. "It's not the size, it's how you use it." Except this is WIS stats, not ... other stuff.

[Ruck]

Oona believes he will admit error rather than double down on a failed Plan.

I've got to second all the voices that say Oona is implying he will choose Right All Along when the time comes.


On consideration a lot of presumedly innocent people living comfortable together in a cave are now dead because The Order lured Team Evil into a cave and hid from them ...

Huh?

[Thales]

Heh. Oona and Greyview are definitely the wisest characters in Team Evil.
Followed by Xykon and MitD.
Well, applied wisdom.
Redcloak just has a high number on his character sheet.

Yeah, Redcloak seems overall like a decent depiction of high-int, low-wis. This can't actually be the case, since he casts high level cleric spells, but he's really not the most perceptive.

[redzimmer]

You have really nailed a High WIS, Low INT with Oona, Giant.

Her “understand this is a metaphor!” aside was the best part.

[redzimmer]

Also, given how forceful she is about explaining the concept of a metaphor, I wonder if she has had problems with people taking them too literally before.

I imagine having philosophical discussions with bugbears might require periodic reminders. Apex predators with toddler intelligence are kinda terrifying.

[gatemansgc]

So, hands up who thinks Oona is placing little-bald-cape-man in a different village to the one he's placing himself in

100%

oona is awesome

[Reboot]

. I mean, someone's going to have to inherit the Crimson Mantle, since as a godly artifact it's not just going to sit around.

I think V is going to Disjunction it and lose their arcane power by the end.

[malakim2099]

Exactly. "It's not the size, it's how you use it." Except this is WIS stats, not ... other stuff.

Always had the impression that Redcloak's Cleric levels/Wisdom score is from the cloak boosting him along and not actual, well, Wisdom. As in he can cleric spells with an effective Wisdom of X, or has a +Y to Wisdom or something along those lines.

To paraphrase Ian Malcolm, "I'll tell you the problem with the clerical power that you're using here, it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You took what others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the power for yourself, so you don't take any responsibility for it."

The difference between earned Wisdom (Durkon/Oona) and gifted Wisdom (Redcloak) is pretty apparent here.

[RMS Oceanic]

Oona "knowing which village he'll choose" is quite the Rorschach test, both in-universe and out.

[SpoonR]

Cruel flippers of entropy yay.

So, I’m going to look at this from a (optimistic) story perspective. A good story-ending outcome has Xykon and the Snarl defeated. That requires the
quiddity (sp?). The most dramatic solution is Redcloak to decide he’s wrong at last possible moment and do a heel not-heel turn.

My money is on Redcloak and MitD vs Xykon

[RaveDave92084]

I think she's a fantastic portrayal of low-int, high-wis.


Hmm, not sure about the low-Int.

Oona's speech patterns is also similar to a high-int person with limited education resources.
I have heard similar patterns in recorded messages from the 1920's interviewing former American slaves, plus a couple of people I have met in real life.

I know it is a trope in D&D and other fiction that Oona's speech pattern indicates low-int, but that is not always the case.

Doesn't mean she has a high intelligence, just not enough evidence one way or another.

Oona shows some respect for Durkon, the "surprisingly insightful dwarf".

Edit: Replaced "also matches" with "is also similar to", original wording was much more authoritative than intended. I am spending too much time in the "Always Right" village.

[wilphe]

Or in T20 terms high INT but low EDU

[bunsen_h]

Cruel Flippers of Entropy is my new band name.

To me it sounds like a really frustrating pinball game.


I mean, if Oona and her people have been living here for a very long time...there is a very good chance she and Serini know each other, and might even be friends.

I don't think they're friends. The bugbears occasionally go into the dungeon and depopulate sections. Even if they automatically repopulate without input from Serini, and no long-term harm is done, that's still acting against the intended function of the place. But it's possible that they know each other. Like Aziraphale and Crowley, they're isolated from their own nominal "sides" and in regular contact, so they can get along.


Always a fun moment when the ranger has higher Wisdom than the cleric. :smallbiggrin:

I don't think Redcloak has low WIS, but he's got some big blind spots. The lack of an eye isn't merely literal, it's metaphorical. Contrast with G'Kar in Babylon 5, for whom the loss of an eye caused him to see more clearly. "I can see things now that were invisible to me before. An empty eye sees through to an empty heart."

[Kantaki]

Yeah, Redcloak seems overall like a decent depiction of high-int, low-wis. This can't actually be the case, since he casts high level cleric spells, but he's really not the most perceptive.

He maxed out the "blinding ego" flaw, so he gets a massive malus on wisdom related checks involving himself.:smallamused:
It seemed very unlikely it'd ever come up.:smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

Hmm, not sure about the low-Int.

Oona's speech patterns also matches a high-int person with limited education resources.
I have heard similar patterns in recorded messages from the 1920's interviewing former American slaves, plus a couple of people I have met in real life.

I know it is a trope in D&D and other fiction that Oona's speech pattern indicates low-int, but that is not always the case.

Doesn't mean she has a high intelligence, just not enough evidence one way or another.

Oona shows some respect for Durkon, the "surprisingly insightful dwarf".
To me it indicates someone speaking in a language they're not quite fluent in. French people I know who have less familiarity with English than I do often construct phrases that sound clunky and unnatural in English, but when literally translated to French sound completely natural (like constantly saying "the [X] of [Y]" instead of "[Y]'s [X]"). I feel like Oona is constructing her sentences in Bugbearese in her heads before translating them in Common on the fly instead of constructing them directly in Common.

For example, she constantly conjugates verbs as "be +ing" (on the first three panels of this page "is seeing", "is knowing", "is doing", "are calling"). My guess is that, just like English denotes future tense with "will +verb", Bugbearese denotes present tense with "be +infinitive".

[DaOldeWolf]

Something to note, rather than consider the meaning behind the metaphor, Redcloak's first instinct is to say that dolphins don't eat bridges to pick it apart and discredit it. Oona is very smart to force Redcloak to remain in the metaphor's own universe.

I love how the current interaction between Oona and Redcloak shows a great example of defense mechanism of rationalization in action. Its truly fascinating to see. Redcloak might think that both goals can remain in place but as Oona points out, there is always a possibility that a decision might have to be made.

Putting all that aside, I am still hoping that Oona and Greyview make it out of this alive. They are pretty fun. :smallbiggrin:

[Dame_Mechanus]

I love how the current interaction between Oona and Redcloak shows a great example of defense mechanism of rationalization in action. Its truly fascinating to see. Redcloak might think that both goals can remain in place but as Oona points out, there is always a possibility that a decision might have to be made.

Or, more accurately in the way Oona phrases it - a decision has already been made about which of these two mutually incompatible goals will be pursued if it has to be one or the other. She knows that without a doubt. She's not worried about what Redcloak has decided because she's already very clear about what his decision is; her goal is to avoid him choosing between one or the other, not influencing a decision that she knows he made a long time ago.

As Serini so aptly put it, I'm sure Redcloak will wring his hands and tell himself he wish he didn't have to do it. Right up until he does it.

[Pax_Chi]

Oona is all but stating that, when push comes to shove, Red Cloak will put his own need to "be right" over the wellbeing of the goblin people. It's the only reasonable conclusion to come too if she states that the main reason she's fighting so hard is so that Red Cloak can continue to live in 'both villages' and not have to choose. After all, if Red Cloak would choose 'what's best for the Goblin people' (which includes Oona), she wouldn't have to worry about Reddy making said choice. And Red Cloak can't even come up with a decent counter argument, and instead has to focus on trying to critique unimportant parts of her metaphor.

It reminds me very much of the Revenge of the Sith novelization that was able to give more time and insight into things that the film couldn't get into, making Anakin's fall to the Darkside more understandable and tragic. In essence, what the Darkside does is take a good or selfless desire (to protect your wife and child) and twists it into something that is inherently selfish (wanting to protect wife/child out of a sense of possessiveness over them rather than love). The story makes it clear that what turned Anakin into Vader was that, despite telling himself he was doing everything for Padme, when the time came and he should have been thinking of her, he was thinking only of himself. That is the trap of the Darkside, in that it leaves you alone with only yourself.

Red Cloak has fallen into a similar trap where the original noble idea of helping his people has been twisted into a "I need to be right so that everything will have been worth it". He claims to be thinking about the goblin people, but he's ultimately doing what will ease his conscience the most.

[SaintRidley]

The fact that redcloak takes it as an insult and immediately attempts to defend against the claim that his ego is a factor tells me that his ego is very much a factor and exactly which village he's going to be living in.

And the fact that his ego blinds him to the fact that the goals could become mutually incompatible for reasons other than his ego. Like, for example, other factors changing that have nothing to do with him, such as, say... the three pantheons voting to pull up the carpet and destroy the world if need be, leaving the Dark One in the dust if he doesn't help with sealing the Snarl again thanks to his unique quiddity.

[Fyraltari]

The fact that redcloak takes it as an insult and immediately attempts to defend against the claim that his ego is a factor tells me that his ego is very much a factor and exactly which village he's going to be living in.
I mean, "at some point you might have to chose between your ego and your goals" isn't exactly a compliment.

And the fact that his ego blinds him to the fact that the goals could become mutually incompatible for reasons other than his ego.
One of the goals, as outlined by her, is literally his ego. "Second village is named Right-All-Along, and all the rocks and trees there are telling little bald man he is being very smart and justified."

[TRH]

I wonder what would happen if Redcloak came to understand how gods are the way they are, how belief shapes them, and one of the core foundational beliefs about the origin of goblins is wrong (he'd probably dismiss it like Durkon and Minrah's cognitive inability to accept Thor's explanation about trees).

I also wonder if The Dark One's teachings about goblins being intentionally created as an XP fodder race was because of a cosmic persecution complex (one caused by an unfair system but ultimately one without intent) or if he started that when he was originally ascended to serve as a motivational lie to his people but ended up gaslighting himself into believing it. Or if he knows the real truth but is able to avoid being rewritten by some unspecified means, like how Thor doesn't have an unrelenting hatred of trees despite the dwarves' beliefs.

If I had to guess, it's only Dwarves who believe that Thor hates trees, and the non-Dwarven worshippers of the Northern Pantheon are enough to ensure that Thor can still keep his head on straight with regards to them.

[Dame_Mechanus]

I mean, "at some point you might have to chose between your ego and your goals" isn't exactly a compliment.

A minor quibble, but I took it as less "you might have to choose between your ego and your goals" and more as "you might have to choose between swallowing your pride and accepting what's best for everyone without getting everything you wanted or making pretty horrible sacrifices on the basis that you never compromised your ideals." Redcloak's problem here is very much that his stated goals about getting what is best for all goblins are potentially at odds with the fact that "what's best for all goblins" may not line up with all the sacrifices he's already made.

It is, in many ways, exactly what Serini asked Roy just to see what he would say. "Are you willing to pick the option that kind of sucks for you personally and involves eating crow if it actually results in the most good done for the most people?"

[georgie_leech]

I love how insightful Oona is. Redcloak probably won't have spoken too openly about any of this in the short time he's been in the village, but Oona sees right through him just from what she already knew of him and from her eavesdropping on his conversation with Durkon and Minrah. Unfortunately for her, the dolphins are coming.

Which might make her and the bugbears potential allies to the Order?

My money is still on the bugbears being allies of Serini. What, you think she let's them muck around with the Gate defenses (and the dungeons are part of the defenses, even if the Gate isn't behind them)? I mean, we know for a fact she can build good relations with the classically "monstrous" races...

[Fish]

To me it indicates someone speaking in a language they're not quite fluent in.
I agree. There is no specific D&D mechanic for different levels of language proficiency — one is either proficient in a language, or one is not — and no specific provision for out-of-the-way dialects of a particular language, changing through time and/or distance. (As far as I know, anyway.) Each language is static and universal. Therefore, if Oona speaks Common in this way, we can only speculate on the intended mechanism.

a) All bugbears speak Common, but Rich decided that these bugbears speak a dialect of Common that has different grammatical constructions (eg, use of the present progressive instead of the simple present tense). Oona's INT cannot be discerned from this fact, because all bugbears — or only of this tribe, perhaps — would speak the same variant regardless of INT.
b) Oona's tribe of bugbears does not speak Common, so Oona took it as a bonus language (meaning she had an INT of 12 or better at character creation). The dialect she learned was a variant as discussed in a).
c) Oona's tribe of bugbears does not speak Common, but she took a Speak Language feat. Again, she learned the variant dialect.
d) Oona is taking a Speak Language feat next level, so this level of sub-fluency to the mainstream dialect represents the time she spent "learning" the language.
e) Separately or in combination with any of the above, Oona's language skills are meant to reflect low INT, low exposure to mainstream Common, or both.
f) Oona is speaking this way on purpose and has better fluency in mainstream Common than she chooses to demonstrate.
g) Some other mechanic I'm not imagining at the moment.

In D&D there is no guaranteed link between intelligence and language except at character creation. Speak Language has no skill checks to be made, nor any modifiers for same. Also, as an added real-world warning, people who doesn't speak the same dialect as you aren't demonstrating an absence of of intelligence here, either. Learning a new language even imperfectly is hard to do as an adult.

[Ellen]

Redcloak is the living embodiment of the sunk cost fallacy. It's not just that he can't take the hit to his ego by admitting he was wrong, he can't take the hit to his guilt.

[elros]

Oona has been consistent by saying she sides with the goblinoids (which includes the bugbears!), and right now she sees that her best chance of success is to support Redcloak. I don't see her switches sides to the Order as much as her doing what she thinks is best to keep the goblinoids alive.
And that is the problem with Redcloak- he is so blinded by his sunk cost fallacy that he is not seeing the true consequences.
What I think is crazy is that, on some level, the Dark One is not challenging Redcloak about it. I think the Dark One must not realize that he will likely not survive if the world is destroyed.

[Dame_Mechanus]

a) All bugbears speak Common, but Rich decided that these bugbears speak a dialect of Common that has different grammatical constructions (eg, use of the present progressive instead of the simple present tense). Oona's INT cannot be discerned from this fact, because all bugbears — or only of this tribe, perhaps — would speak the same variant regardless of INT.

My personal reading has always been that the bugbears can speak Common (MitD mentions talking to Haarko, for example, and we have yet to have indication that MitD has a bugbear language as a proficiency) but it's not their first language, they mostly use it for trade, and their dialect does not match the usual Common dialect simply because they're pretty remote. Oona's word choice is varied and broad, indicating that her way of constructing sentences and explaining concepts is not so much "I am trying to convey a thought using words I'm unfamiliar with" as it is "this is how my brain thinks of sentences and I am going to restructure this language to a more familiar shape."

It also seems obvious that Redcloak does not think Oona is very smart, but that says more about Redcloak's ability to pay attention than it does about Oona herself.

[Peelee]

What makes you think she has low Intelligence?
How she vocalizes her thought processes, mostly. For example, she has excellent insight into Redcloak's character and what makes him tick but thinks she has to explain what a metaphor is.

Hmm, not sure about the low-Int.

Oona's speech patterns is also similar to a high-int person with limited education resources.

Welcome to the wonderful world of "D&D separated intelligence and wisdom which are much harder to separate in real life and does not really correlate well to real life". :smalltongue:

[TRH]

Oona has been consistent by saying she sides with the goblinoids (which includes the bugbears!), and right now she sees that her best chance of success is to support Redcloak. I don't see her switches sides to the Order as much as her doing what she thinks is best to keep the goblinoids alive.
And that is the problem with Redcloak- he is so blinded by his sunk cost fallacy that he is not seeing the true consequences.
What I think is crazy is that, on some level, the Dark One is not challenging Redcloak about it. I think the Dark One must not realize that he will likely not survive if the world is destroyed.

How would he know? Sounds like the Dark One hasn't talked to another god since not long after he ascended.

[infinityman]

Logged in for the first time in a year (two?) to say: this is one of the best comics Rich has ever done. Thank you, Rich.

[masamune1]

Oona has been consistent by saying she sides with the goblinoids (which includes the bugbears!), and right now she sees that her best chance of success is to support Redcloak. I don't see her switches sides to the Order as much as her doing what she thinks is best to keep the goblinoids alive.
And that is the problem with Redcloak- he is so blinded by his sunk cost fallacy that he is not seeing the true consequences.
What I think is crazy is that, on some level, the Dark One is not challenging Redcloak about it. I think the Dark One must not realize that he will likely not survive if the world is destroyed.

I mean, that's what the gods are operating on- they have been TRYING to tell The Dark One what is really going on, but he's cut off all communication with them (and, I think, killing their messengers), so Durkon was tasked with going to his High Priest (Redcloak) to try that way.

So, of course The Dark One doesn't know- he isn't listening to the gods, and Redcloak hasn't told him. The whole point of telling Redcloak was to get him to commune with his god and alert him to the situation.

It is established that the gods don't know everything that their clerics do at all times (e.g. Thor didn't know what Durkon was talking about when he said there is a world on the other side of the Gates), so simply telling Redcloak does not mean that The Dark One knows what Redcloak knows (or what Redcloak has heard but refuses to listen to).

Dark One can't challenge Redcloak on information Dark One doesn't know about.

Though, that being said, Redcloak has never once actually talked to The Dark One anyway, so I'm curious how he'll let him know about it or how he'll communicate back- I'm kind of wondering if Redcloak will kill-and-rez another Hobgoblin to talk to their god again, actually.

(of course, it's also possible that the Dark One HAS been listening but is still just processing the information- months might have passed for us, but for the characters I'm not sure it's even been an hour).

[pendell]

I agree. There is no specific D&D mechanic for different levels of language proficiency — one is either proficient in a language, or one is not — and no specific provision for out-of-the-way dialects of a particular language, changing through time and/or distance. (As far as I know, anyway.) Each language is static and universal. Therefore, if Oona speaks Common in this way, we can only speculate on the intended mechanism.

a) All bugbears speak Common, but Rich decided that these bugbears speak a dialect of Common that has different grammatical constructions (eg, use of the present progressive instead of the simple present tense). Oona's INT cannot be discerned from this fact, because all bugbears — or only of this tribe, perhaps — would speak the same variant regardless of INT.
b) Oona's tribe of bugbears does not speak Common, so Oona took it as a bonus language (meaning she had an INT of 12 or better at character creation). The dialect she learned was a variant as discussed in a).
c) Oona's tribe of bugbears does not speak Common, but she took a Speak Language feat. Again, she learned the variant dialect.
d) Oona is taking a Speak Language feat next level, so this level of sub-fluency to the mainstream dialect represents the time she spent "learning" the language.
e) Separately or in combination with any of the above, Oona's language skills are meant to reflect low INT, low exposure to mainstream Common, or both.
f) Oona is speaking this way on purpose and has better fluency in mainstream Common than she chooses to demonstrate.
g) Some other mechanic I'm not imagining at the moment.

In D&D there is no guaranteed link between intelligence and language except at character creation. Speak Language has no skill checks to be made, nor any modifiers for same. Also, as an added real-world warning, people who doesn't speak the same dialect as you aren't demonstrating an absence of of intelligence here, either. Learning a new language even imperfectly is hard to do as an adult.

I agree with you and also Fyraltari. Many of the goblinoids we meet in comic have accents of one kind or another. The orcs on the desert island. The Supreme Leader in How the Paladin Got His Scar.

In Oona's case, I remind the readers that she lives on an ice cap and thus doesn't have many opportunities to exercise common with native speakers, so she's probably a little bit halting in her use of the language. I don't think this impacts her intelligence, which I assess as 'average' -- in the 8-12 range. She's not stupid as a rock as Thog or Elan are, but neither is she a Vaarsuvius or a Roy. I'd match her most closely with Haley in the OOTS.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[OvisCaedo]

I'm curious at this point in time: What do people think Oona's alignment likely is? I'm leaning towards somewhere in Neutral, despite being part of "Team Evil"

[drazen]

I think V is going to Disjunction it and lose their arcane power by the end.

I've been predicting this ever since the (second) black dragon fight.

I've also predicted:

- The gate is not in the chasm (which Serini has implied I might be right, she said to beat Xykon "out here, away from the gate.")
- Eugene will be trapped on the cloud forever because Xykon will not be "defeated" - he'll augment or replace a dying Hel (Xykon wants to rule the world, and the only logical way to top that power level in the Stickverse is godhood).

[hroþila]

I'm curious at this point in time: What do people think Oona's alignment likely is? I'm leaning towards somewhere in Neutral, despite being part of "Team Evil"
She strikes me as either Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm curious at this point in time: What do people think Oona's alignment likely is? I'm leaning towards somewhere in Neutral, despite being part of "Team Evil"

Oona was willing to kill two humanoids she had just met (O Chul & Lien) to feed them to MitD. Now her locale is harsh and demanding, but I'll still put that in the dark grey area if not Xykon black.

[Arkain]

Love how Oona's always grabbing him going "THIS IS ONLY IMAGINARY!". You know, "hypothetically speaking..." :smallbiggrin:

[LuPuWei]

This is a really good one

[Jason]

On consideration a lot of presumedly innocent people living comfortable together in a cave are now dead because The Order lured Team Evil into a cave and hid from them ...

I suppose you could blame the Order, rather than the people who actually invaded the monsters' cave and killed them all. But really, chances are that Team Evil would have killed all the monsters in this cave eventually, and there is no reason to presume they were "innocent".

[ByzantiumBhuka]

There are quite a few characters here in the last book who seem to be living in two villages; this is a possible main theme of the final arc, like family vs goodness was in BRitF.

Roy is living in Killed-The-Lich, where there’s a great big statue of him as the hero who killed Xykon and he can prepare to live on Mount Celestia for the rest of his days, and in Best-For-The-World, where he works with Durkon and others to ensure happiness for all humanoids. From Serini’s pressure, it seems like there could be a setup where he needs to choose between the two—but his decision will be a lot easier than Redcloak’s.

Durkon is living in Best-For-The-World as well, but he’s also trying to live in Thorville, where Thor is always right and the gods can be trusted, so he doesn’t need to make any of the big decisions on his own. Dolphins have already eaten some of that bridge, though, and Durkon seems to be leaning away from Thorville.

Serini is living in Hidden-Gate, where the world is safe because nobody knows where the Gate is, and Best-For-The-Monsters, where all the interests of neglected monsters like Sunny are met and the world doesn’t view them as pariahs. Serini has spent the last few decades building 23 adamantium-reinforced bridges equipped with masterwork dolphin-killing turrets, but it seems reasonable to assume that around the halfway point of the book, something will happen to tear the bridges down (related to the loss of Sunny perhaps?), and I have no idea how she’ll react in such a situation.

OOTS is filled with bridges set to crumble, and it’ll be fascinating to see what happens when the flippers of entropy emerge.

[Peelee]

She's not stupid as a rock as Thog or Elan are, but neither is she a Vaarsuvius or a Roy. I'd match her most closely with Haley in the OOTS.

Speaking as the one who brought it up, and never said one word about her accent indicating anything towards intelligence despite several assumptions, how do you get that? She has excellent grasp on tactics and on when to listen and when to fight, but she explains things very simply and, as in this strip, assumes other people lack understanding basic conceptual constructs, which makes sense if she herself also has trouble understanding things.

Ergo, high wis, low int. As in the confines of how D&D treats wis and int separately.

[Pablo360]

There are quite a few characters here in the last book who seem to be living in two villages; this is a possible main theme of the final arc, like family vs goodness was in BRitF.

⋯

OOTS is filled with bridges set to crumble, and it’ll be fascinating to see what happens when the flippers of entropy emerge.

I mean… you’re not wrong, in the sense that “living in two villages” is really just a metaphor for “any kind of internal character conflict”. Not really a specific theme so much as a different way to think of standard story structure.

[Psychronia]

Oona is a treasure and Redcloak...might not have the perspective, pun not intended, to tell which absolutely definitely not real village Oona thinks he'd go for. I'm just glad that someone is making the linchpin of Thor's plan reevaluate his priorities.

I deeply want Oona, Sunny, and Elan to hang out one day. Elan could definitely use her help clarifying metaphors. I think he's used them before, but it wouldn't hurt to review.


I love how insightful Oona is. Redcloak probably won't have spoken too openly about any of this in the short time he's been in the village, but Oona sees right through him just from what she already knew of him and from her eavesdropping on his conversation with Durkon and Minrah. Unfortunately for her, the dolphins are coming.

The dolphins are coming! The dolphins are coming!

[Dame_Mechanus]

Speaking as the one who brought it up, and never said one word about her accent indicating anything towards intelligence despite several assumptions, how do you get that? She has excellent grasp on tactics and on when to listen and when to fight, but she explains things very simply and, as in this strip, assumes other people lack understanding basic conceptual constructs, which makes sense if she herself also has trouble understanding things.

Ergo, high wis, low int. As in the confines of how D&D treats wis and int separately.

Does she assume people lack understanding, or does she assume Redcloak is going to not understand and focus instead on nitpicking the details of the metaphor she's about to make? You know, which he immediately does despite her telling him not to do so?

I'll definitely agree that Oona's WIS is higher than her INT, but aside from the colloquial indications of "low INT high WIS" I don't think we've really had any indications that she's actually low on INT. It's just not where she has focused most of her stat bonuses. Of course, as mentioned, D&D separating the two can lead to some difficulty in parsing things out - is the fact that Oona noticed Redcloak didn't answer her question about the dwarves a sign of Intelligence or Wisdom? It's up in the air.

At the same time, regardless of her actual scores, Oona is a lot more perceptive than Redcloak gives her credit for.

[hroþila]

The dolphins are coming! The dolphins are coming!
https://i.postimg.cc/3NjDC67J/dallemini-2022-7-18-22-52-13.png

[Reboot]

Does she assume people lack understanding, or does she assume Redcloak is going to not understand and focus instead on nitpicking the details of the metaphor she's about to make? You know, which he immediately does despite her telling him not to do so?

Exactly what I was thinking. If you look at the last two strips, Oona clearly thinks Redcloak is an idiot - albeit a powerful one she needs to keep under control/distracted for the good of her tribe. Not a million miles from how RC sees Xykon, actually...

If you want signs of her being bad at reading sentients, her interactions with "Great Beast in Shadow" are a much better example.

[Shining Wrath]

Exactly what I was thinking. If you look at the last two strips, Oona clearly thinks Redcloak is an idiot - albeit a powerful one she needs to keep under control/distracted for the good of her tribe. Not a million miles from how RC sees Xykon, actually...

If you want signs of her being bad at reading sentients, her interactions with "Great Beast in Shadow" are a much better example.

Or with Greyview. She thinks Xykon is MitD's master, she thinks she is Greyview's master, the "servants" may have other opinions but they don't register with Oona.

Therefore: nod. Get treat.

[Rrmcklin]

Another thing to consider- Oona never really CARED about "all Goblinkind" in the first place, did she?

She's quite happy just living her own life and focusing on her own tribe without worrying about such bigger, abstract things.

Maybe she's not worried because she honestly feels she has no horse in this race, no matter how much Redcloak insists that she is part of Goblinkind too.

Her dialogue her would suggest otherwise. She says that she agrees that Redcloak's intentions are great, and specifically says we and not you when talking about how it would be great to not worry about "getting smushed by dwarf or elf". Oona is very aware of the goblins place in the world and agrees it would be great to change it - she just doesn't have confidence that Redcloak is willing to sacrifice his ego for it, if that's what it takes.

Unless that's supposed to be a clever technique to disarm him, but given how frank she was about everything else, I doubt it.

[Garanvir]

Greyview with a buzzer beater for the last panel win!

[Dame_Mechanus]

Or with Greyview. She thinks Xykon is MitD's master, she thinks she is Greyview's master, the "servants" may have other opinions but they don't register with Oona.

Therefore: nod. Get treat.

I'm reminded of a bit from Schlock Mercenary. "Well... it's not because he doesn't think I'm smart. It's because he doesn't think I'm 'people.' (https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2007-11-12)"

[Psyren]

Also, given how forceful she is about explaining the concept of a metaphor, I wonder if she has had problems with people taking them too literally before.

She not only lives with a bunch of bugbears, but (a) her closest companion is a Worg and (b) most of her stories about her family and clan indicate not too much going on upstairs with them, so I'd say she has had issues before.

[KB [The Hero]]

I think one of the most telling things about Oona's motivations is her line in the 11th panel of the comic. Right after stating she's pretty sure which village Redcloak will end up in, she immediately follows up with telling him that it's essentially her job to make sure he never has to make that choice.

She knows which village Redcloak is going to choose and with that knowledge she believes the best course of action is that he never has to choose. I think that really tells us everything we need to know about how she sees Redcloak, right?

[Provengreil]

I love Oona so much. Bridge eating dolphins in my next campaign perhaps?

Do it! I encountered something similar once, in a quick one shot we were running to burn an afternoon. To this day the result is one of my best memories of those friends.

[Provengreil]

I think we're getting hints that Xykon knows a lot more than he lets on. About MitD, about Redcloak, and so on. How hard would it be for him to learn (or invent) some epic level mind reading spells?

Quite difficult actually, he has to either level first or spend the inordinate amount of time to learn another epic spell, and at this point that isn't likely to happen. No accounting for a wand though, and he's proven perfectly willing to have a few tricks in his robes. Also, while it could still swing either way, I think Redcloak still controls Xykon, with that manipulation he spoke of back when he killed Tsukiko. He also still has Xykon's real phylactery, a trump card to which Xykon won't have an answer to besides simply murdering Redcloak.

But you never know. I think the scariest part of Xykon is that he's proven to learn from his mistakes and manage not to show it: the only people on the good side of the fence who have even come close to seeing him with actual effort and killing intent are V and O'chul I think, and even that was only for like 3 panels. Yet, he's learned to prepare far ahead of time and knows exactly when to drop the japes. Remember Dorukan's death from Start of Darkness? Or that he MCed the MitD against Redcloak's potential treachery? There's evidence for anything if you look at it right. I can't wait.

[Ave]

Oona is a complete weirdo. She's wonderful.

I think she is just low Int, high Wis.

[ZhonLord]

But you never know. I think the scariest part of Xykon is that he's proven to learn from his mistakes and manage not to show it: the only people on the good side of the fence who have even come close to seeing him with actual effort and killing intent are V and O'chul I think, and even that was only for like 3 panels. Yet, he's learned to prepare far ahead of time and knows exactly when to drop the japes. Remember Dorukan's death from Start of Darkness? Or that he MCed the MitD against Redcloak's potential treachery? There's evidence for anything if you look at it right. I can't wait.

Xykon's certainly no idiot. He's got enough tactical smarts to understand and approve of Redcloak's strategies - like the shell game back at Azure City - and even in a world of self-aware stick figures he's got an extra level of self-awareness that he shows whenever he's not feeling impatient; like how he points out Redcloak's issues with trying to apply logic to campaigns and D&D in general.

If anything, I think Roy's comment to Belkar back in Firmament applies to Xykon quite well. "This is really gross to say, but you're weirdly clever with this adventuring stuff when you try." And in very short order Xykon is going to be trying harder than he has since "having the pipes ripped out".

[Liquor Box]

Speaking as the one who brought it up, and never said one word about her accent indicating anything towards intelligence despite several assumptions, how do you get that? She has excellent grasp on tactics and on when to listen and when to fight, but she explains things very simply and, as in this strip, assumes other people lack understanding basic conceptual constructs, which makes sense if she herself also has trouble understanding things.

Ergo, high wis, low int. As in the confines of how D&D treats wis and int separately.

That seems more consistent with high intelligence, low wisdom to me. Tactical understanding and thinking that she needs to explain the concept of metaphors to someone she seems to regard as less smart than herself are both aspects of intelligence. Overexplaining might also be a cultural element.

I wonder if it is Redcloak who is an example of high wisdom low intelligence. We know he has high wisdom mechanically. But I wonder if his lack of insight which Oona is highlighting, combined with earlier examples of Xykon frequently being a step ahead of him are indicators that his intelligence isn't that high.

As an aside, I think it is highly unlikely that Oona has higher wisdom than Redcloak. His wisdom is in the twenties.


She not only lives with a bunch of bugbears, but (a) her closest companion is a Worg and (b) most of her stories about her family and clan indicate not too much going on upstairs with them, so I'd say she has had issues before.

Bugbears don't ordinarily have an intelligence penalty. It's possible they do in OotS though (like Goblins) I suppose.


On consideration a lot of presumedly innocent people living comfortable together in a cave are now dead because The Order lured Team Evil into a cave and hid from them ...

Putting aside the questionable description of the monsters in the cave as 'people', the Order's culpability would fall behind at least Team Evil (who actually deliberately killed them) and Serini (who brought them here for the purpose of putting in the path of a group like Team Evil).

More likely they are not culpable at all - the Order didn't know the cave was populated at all.


I'm curious at this point in time: What do people think Oona's alignment likely is? I'm leaning towards somewhere in Neutral, despite being part of "Team Evil"
Any reason for that? It seems that every piece of information we have about her indicates (if not confirms) evil.

[Provengreil]

I wonder if it is Redcloak who is an example of high wisdom low intelligence. We know he has high wisdom mechanically. But I wonder if his lack of insight which Oona is highlighting, combined with earlier examples of Xykon frequently being a step ahead of him are indicators that his intelligence isn't that high.


I think it's more simple than that: no amount of wisdom or intelligence will allow you to see an answer you're unwilling to accept. Last comic he assumed Durkon's presence meant that forces were moving against him, he did it earlier in 1207 during Durkon's negotiation. He is unwilling to accept any result other than "The Plan works out" and successfully dupes Xykon into casting the ritual after they beat, or at least evade, the Order.

I think there will be some form of acceptance, in the end, as he finally becomes willing to imagine that The Plan won't work out, but it'll come after some very significant blows. Even Xykon dying, complete with the phylactery being destroyed, still wouldn't be enough. My guess is that it will have something to do with the archfiends and their plan with the artifact they talked about at one point.

[TaiLiu]

Which might have been foreshadowed all the way back in Azure City when he had his moment of clarity about the hobgoblins, stopped wasting their lives and went on to win the war.

But then ... just because he chose it once, does it therefore follow he will always and ever choose that path? At least once, back in Azure City, he made the other choice, admitting error and refusing to sacrifice more
I think this is a really crucial point. Redcloak has admitted to error before. I feel confident saying that, in the end, he'll make the right decision, even if it means admitting that he's made a lot of wrong decisions first.



Quite difficult actually, he has to either level first or spend the inordinate amount of time to learn another epic spell, and at this point that isn't likely to happen.
Right. And Tsukiko noted that divination spells aren't his specialty, which mind reading falls under.

[danielxcutter]

I do think Redcloak will eventually choose the first village. It’ll just take a lot for him to do that.

Also him immediately nitpicking the metaphor and Oona grabbing him and telling him that it’s just a metaphor is hilarious.

[Dame_Mechanus]

I think this is a really crucial point. Redcloak has admitted to error before. I feel confident saying that, in the end, he'll make the right decision, even if it means admitting that he's made a lot of wrong decisions first.

Right, but only under duress and in a way that relied upon him first realizing that he was acting like Xykon. I don't think it's impossible for Redcloak to make the right decision, but it's going to take a really heavy blow to his ego... like finding out that Xykon has figured out his "plan" ages ago and was paying closer attention than Redcloak thought at the time.

Like, as much as Redcloak might have thought he dealt with Tsukiko at the moment she became an issue, I think he was far too willing to accept that Xykon's attempts to figure out what Redcloak is actually doing stopped with her. It seems far more likely Xykon has been focusing on this for a while, above and beyond the astral fortress he has where he's stashed the fake phylactery. We have a pretty clear picture of what Redcloak knows, but I increasingly feel like he hasn't really considered what Xykon knows.


Right. And Tsukiko noted that divination spells aren't his specialty, which mind reading falls under.

Well, not so far as Tsukiko and Redcloak know. I mean, if you suspect your immediate lieutenant is lying to you (which Xykon clearly does), you might not let him know what you can do to know more.

[dancrilis]

Huh?

I suppose you could blame the Order, rather than the people who actually invaded the monsters' cave and killed them all. But really, chances are that Team Evil would have killed all the monsters in this cave eventually, and there is no reason to presume they were "innocent".


Putting aside the questionable description of the monsters in the cave as 'people', the Order's culpability would fall behind at least Team Evil (who actually deliberately killed them) and Serini (who brought them here for the purpose of putting in the path of a group like Team Evil).
It was just a random thought after seeing the bodies of the monsters and considering if they had been humans, elves, dwarves etc - the hero led the homicidal murderer to an apartment complex and hoped to wait until the murderer was tired out from murdering everyone inside so that they could ambush them while tired.
Yes the homicidal murderer is responsible, but the hero is not looking the best.

I am not critiquing the The Order (who largely at that time thought of monsters as monsters) or The Giant (who might be setting something up, might not have thought about it or might just be trying to tell a compelling story and a body count for the villains helps with that) ... just it was a random thought of mine that kindof stuck with me.



More likely they are not culpable at all - the Order didn't know the cave was populated at all.
They hoped/planned that it was (panel 6 and 7 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1224.html)).

[Ruck]

That seems more consistent with high intelligence, low wisdom to me.

I think, as others have said already, Oona's quick grasp of Redcloak's deeper motivations in their short time together indicates some decent amount of wisdom.


I wonder if it is Redcloak who is an example of high wisdom low intelligence. We know he has high wisdom mechanically. But I wonder if his lack of insight which Oona is highlighting, combined with earlier examples of Xykon frequently being a step ahead of him are indicators that his intelligence isn't that high.

I think Redcloak is too scholarly to have low intelligence.

More likely-- again, as others have said already-- even a high wisdom score can't make someone realize something they don't want to realize.


It was just a random thought after seeing the bodies of the monsters and considering if they had been humans, elves, dwarves etc - the hero led the homicidal murderer to an apartment complex and hoped to wait until the murderer was tired out from murdering everyone inside so that they could ambush them while tired.
Yes the homicidal murderer is responsible, but the hero is not looking the best.

A)Team Evil has entered plenty of doors and killed monsters on their own, and would continue to do so whether or not the Order was there.

B)We know "Monster Hollow" regularly spawns new monsters, who are there for the explicit purpose of defending the dungeon from intruders. (I get the feeling that "families" is not the right term for them.) And because of that, comparing Monster Hollow to an apartment complex of more humanoid-looking people isn't really accurate, because this is not a case of ordinary people living their lives and facing a home invasion; the monsters are there for a specific purpose.

[Dame_Mechanus]

It was just a random thought after seeing the bodies of the monsters and considering if they had been humans, elves, dwarves etc - the hero led the homicidal murderer to an apartment complex and hoped to wait until the murderer was tired out from murdering everyone inside so that they could ambush them while tired.
Yes the homicidal murderer is responsible, but the hero is not looking the best.

We've literally had this logic taken apart twice in the comic, once with O-Chul and Redcloak when the latter was blaming the former for "letting" him kill a bunch of humans, later with Durkon and Greg when Greg pointed out that Durkon could have tried to save Brother Sandstone's life only for Durkon to point out that Greg would have still killed him no matter what Durkon did. Someone who was going to do awful things no matter what does not make you responsible for their actions just because your actions led them to pick this particular site for their awful actions or these particular people.

Or to put it more simply, the only way the Order could have stopped it was by stopping Xykon and Redcloak altogether... which is what they're actively trying to do. Dying to stop them might be a necessary course of action, but if they had just walked out and tried to fight them instead of trying to ambush them they'd have just died to accomplish nothing.

[Provengreil]

Right, but only under duress and in a way that relied upon him first realizing that he was acting like Xykon. I don't think it's impossible for Redcloak to make the right decision, but it's going to take a really heavy blow to his ego... like finding out that Xykon has figured out his "plan" ages ago and was paying closer attention than Redcloak thought at the time.

Like, as much as Redcloak might have thought he dealt with Tsukiko at the moment she became an issue, I think he was far too willing to accept that Xykon's attempts to figure out what Redcloak is actually doing stopped with her. It seems far more likely Xykon has been focusing on this for a while, above and beyond the astral fortress he has where he's stashed the fake phylactery. We have a pretty clear picture of what Redcloak knows, but I increasingly feel like he hasn't really considered what Xykon knows.



Well, not so far as Tsukiko and Redcloak know. I mean, if you suspect your immediate lieutenant is lying to you (which Xykon clearly does), you might not let him know what you can do to know more.

Given that O'chul walked out of a relatively brief captivity period knowing most of Xykon's spells, I have some trouble believing that Xykon has this particular type of trick of his sleeve. Much more likely is that he'd rely on simply being a lot more observant than most people ever seem to think he is, and why not? To the best of our knowledge that trick has literally never failed him once he started using it. We all know not to underestimate him by now, he put Tsukiko's death, her assignment with the ritual, and Redcloak's sudden drive to get moving together. He might even know about the fake phylactery, if there was ever an item to be observant with it's that, though not immediately killing Redcloak suggests otherwise.

It's a textbook gambit pileup. Xykon and redcloak are diverging, each having different goals that still need each other. The Order needs to stop Team Evil yet needs Redcloak's cooperation. Hel still has a vampire and a relatively strong position re: souls at worlds end. The fiends have....something, we have less info on that than anything else. The package comes complete with a set of wrenches in the form of the snarl, MitD going full wildcard, and the planet in the rift. I can't even begin to guess at how this cookie crumbles.

[dancrilis]

A)Team Evil has entered plenty of doors and killed monsters on their own, and would continue to do so whether or not the Order was there.
But these specific 'monsters' were behind a marked door and therefore potentially safe.



B)We know "Monster Hollow" regularly spawns new monsters, who are there for the explicit purpose of defending the dungeon from intruders. (I get the feeling that "families" is not the right term for them.) And because of that, comparing Monster Hollow to an apartment complex of more humanoid-looking people isn't really accurate, because this is not a case of ordinary people living their lives and facing a home invasion; the monsters are there for a specific purpose.

The hero led the virtually invincible killer to a military facility focused on defence in the hope that the killer might tire themselves out killing all the military personal before being ambushed while leaving - does not look that great for the hero either.



Or to put it more simply, the only way the Order could have stopped it was by stopping Xykon and Redcloak altogether... which is what they're actively trying to do. Dying to stop them might be a necessary course of action, but if they had just walked out and tried to fight them instead of trying to ambush them they'd have just died to accomplish nothing.
Roy's intitial plan was to hit Xykon with a sword (which he tried), they could have dropped the trap and attacked them from behind (which Roy might have done if he though Xykon was about to kill a bunch of innocent people) - they choose to let the monsters die, it isn't a choice I am faulting them for just a bit odd to me now that I have noticed it.

[Ruck]

But these specific 'monsters' were behind a marked door and therefore potentially safe.

For now. Redcloak would have eventually realized there was a mistake with the doors and started investigating it further.


The hero led the virtually invincible killer to a military facility focused on defence in the hope that the killer might tire themselves out killing all the military personal before being ambushed while leaving - does not look that great for the hero either.

That's not really what happened, though. The swap-over trap was as much a surprise to the Order as to anyone. They ran and hid to prepare for Team Evil inevitably finding them, then had to change plans when they realized what was going on.

I think you're reaching hard to find a way to pin those monsters' deaths on the Order somehow, instead of the people who actually killed them.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Given that O'chul walked out of a relatively brief captivity period knowing most of Xykon's spells, I have some trouble believing that Xykon has this particular type of trick of his sleeve.

Most of his spells... but not necessarily most of his magic items, especially since he found time to create an entire astral fortress that even Redcloak didn't know about until he mentioned it specifically. Redcloak even mentions that this isn't altogether unusual for Xykon, that he'll sometimes just go away for a bit and come back with some new trick or another. Not that it's impossible he just figured it out absent any magical divination and was just looking for a smoking gun; just that it wouldn't surprise me to learn that he had some magical items he hasn't bothered to tell his underlings about.

Edit to add:


Roy's intitial plan was to hit Xykon with a sword (which he tried), they could have dropped the trap and attacked them from behind (which Roy might have done if he though Xykon was about to kill a bunch of innocent people) - they choose to let the monsters die, it isn't a choice I am faulting them for just a bit odd to me now that I have noticed it.

Yep, they just stood by and let the monsters die. Well, if by "stood by" you mean "waited, got lured further in, got ambushed, spent time getting out of the ambush, negotiated with a powerful new ally, and wound up dealing with a great deal of new information."

Not to mention, again, that Roy and company did not make Redcloak kill anyone. Redcloak could have noticed hostile monsters still there and then left. He had the information he needed. He was the one who chose to go further in the cavern and he was the one who decided to do so by means of violence.

[danielxcutter]

Right, but only under duress and in a way that relied upon him first realizing that he was acting like Xykon. I don't think it's impossible for Redcloak to make the right decision, but it's going to take a really heavy blow to his ego... like finding out that Xykon has figured out his "plan" ages ago and was paying closer attention than Redcloak thought at the time.

Like, as much as Redcloak might have thought he dealt with Tsukiko at the moment she became an issue, I think he was far too willing to accept that Xykon's attempts to figure out what Redcloak is actually doing stopped with her. It seems far more likely Xykon has been focusing on this for a while, above and beyond the astral fortress he has where he's stashed the fake phylactery. We have a pretty clear picture of what Redcloak knows, but I increasingly feel like he hasn't really considered what Xykon knows.

Hmm. Given that as it is, I don't really see what else would happen besides Redcloak seeing sense eventually, that might just be how that happens.

[Potatopeelerkin]

I love Oona. I'm still rooting for her eventually becoming TDO's high priest.

Even if Redcloak would ultimately choose to stay in the Doing-Very-Best-For-Goblins village, he just doesn't have the same aptitude for colourful bugbear metaphor. That's very important for a high priest.

[dancrilis]

For now. Redcloak would have eventually realized there was a mistake with the doors and started investigating it further.

Or he would have decided on a different path/been defeated etc.



That's not really what happened, though. The swap-over trap was as much a surprise to the Order as to anyone. They ran and hid to prepare for Team Evil inevitably finding them, then had to change plans when they realized what was going on.
But after they found out about it they developed a plan that they recognised would likely result on in the deaths of monsters - if Roy thought there were innocent people about be to killed he might have asked Haley to drop the trap earlier and attack.



I think you're reaching hard to find a way to pin those monsters' deaths on the Order somehow, instead of the people who actually killed them.
I can see how it might come across that way but it is not the intention - Roy had minutes to think about this, I have had weeks and the thought still only clicked with me after I saw that there seemed to be humanoids in the cave.
I am not faulting the Order for this (had they ran in saying 'we much protect the monsters in the cave' is would have been odd) just it was odd to me that I only thought about it now, and so decided to share the odd thought to see if anyone else had it (apparently not).

[Provengreil]

I am not faulting the Order for this (had they ran in saying 'we much protect the monsters in the cave' is would have been odd) just it was odd to me that I only thought about it now, and so decided to share the odd thought to see if anyone else had it (apparently not).

No one else seems to have thought that because it's incredibly tortured logic at best. You pretty much have to start with the conclusion that the Order decided to use the monsters to wear down Team Evil and work from there, which is in no way supported by the events we actually see. Also, they ran into a marked door with recently cleared snow, which even the slightest application of logic would suggest to be a recently cleared dungeon anyway, and tried to hide their tracks: the best way to use the monsters would be to use their scent to make the bad guys follow them into an unmarked door with a snow pile.

I can't think of a single factor in the comic that supports your conclusion here.

[Ruck]

Or he would have decided on a different path/been defeated etc.


But after they found out about it they developed a plan that they recognised would likely result on in the deaths of monsters - if Roy thought there were innocent people about be to killed he might have asked Haley to drop the trap earlier and attack.


I can see how it might come across that way but it is not the intention - Roy had minutes to think about this, I have had weeks and the thought still only clicked with me after I saw that there seemed to be humanoids in the cave.
I am not faulting the Order for this (had they ran in saying 'we much protect the monsters in the cave' is would have been odd) just it was odd to me that I only thought about it now, and so decided to share the odd thought to see if anyone else had it (apparently not).

I think I see where you're coming from as an idle thought or idea, but as Provengreil outlined more clearly than I have, I don't think your suppositions are supported by the evidence.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I think V is going to Disjunction it and lose their arcane power by the end.

There's plenty of candidates for that. The IFCC have some sort of uber-powerful hellish artefact in their possession that is key to their ambitions on the material plane. Perhaps there will be a choice between "destroy the cloak and the Dark One's influence, versus destroy the IFCC's capability to set the universe in flames" and it'll be a case of destroying the greater evil while leaving TDO's conduit still able to function for good or for ill.


I'm curious at this point in time: What do people think Oona's alignment likely is? I'm leaning towards somewhere in Neutral, despite being part of "Team Evil"

I'm strongly leaning towards True Neutral. She doesn't have much of an emphasis on following systems of laws, nor of defying them. She's not cruel and sadistic, but she's not altruistic or charitable either. She's just "whatever benefits and safeguards me and my people", i.e. the bugbear tribe in particular and goblinoids in general, but has a greater grasp on integrity than any of the rest of Team Evil who she's working with. That scans as True Neutral to me.


I think this is a really crucial point. Redcloak has admitted to error before. I feel confident saying that, in the end, he'll make the right decision, even if it means admitting that he's made a lot of wrong decisions first.

I'm not sure where you're getting that unearned confidence. Apart from rare exceptions of clarity, Redcloak has an established pattern of doubling down time and again on his beloved plans at the expense of reason. He's basically Miko but evil. Something truly fundamental would have to happen to change that, and Redcloak has made a character trait out of getting aggressive at any challenge to the all-important superiority of his plans. His potential redemption just doesn't add up as plausible to me. His self-destructive death, by contrast, does.


It's a textbook gambit pileup. Xykon and redcloak are diverging, each having different goals that still need each other. The Order needs to stop Team Evil yet needs Redcloak's cooperation. Hel still has a vampire and a relatively strong position re: souls at worlds end. The fiends have....something, we have less info on that than anything else. The package comes complete with a set of wrenches in the form of the snarl, MitD going full wildcard, and the planet in the rift. I can't even begin to guess at how this cookie crumbles.

This. And the thirty gambit pileup still has to really get rolling. We have a relatively calm and seemingly straightforward situation that is going to get upended to the Nine Hells and back the instant that the IFCC pull their promised intervention or something else comes up that we haven't seen coming. The story always gets more and more mountingly complicated as time goes by. My only bet is that that we have only seen the tip of the iceberg so far before it becomes an epic many-layered dumpster fire in-universe.

[RMS Oceanic]

If this is foreshadowing that Redcloak is going to be forced into a personal crisis, then I think it lessens the odds of speculation I've seen that Xykon will deliberately sabotage the plan, because I think even Redcloak would take the guy he needs for the plan screwing it over as evidence to cross the river. It's more likely Xykon gets it in his head that he wants something Redcloak is reluctant to give. Or allow.

[withercat]

Honestly Oona and Redcloak have such a genuinely good dynamic I love seeing the two of them interact like this. We so rarely get friendly foils for Redcloak, and I'm so glad to see Oona stepping into that role

[BriarHobbit]

So, hands up who thinks Oona is placing little-bald-cape-man in a different village to the one he's placing himself in

Yes. Definitely. That is why she fights bridge eating dolphins, so that a choice never needs to be made.

[Breccia]

Redcloak is going to have to decide what's his real porpoise in life.

[danielxcutter]

I just took Wisdom drain from that. I hope you're happy.

[arimareiji]

Not sure if I love it or hate it when people have already more-or-less covered the ground my thoughts were meandering, but I'm going with "A little of both". (^_~)°


Speaking as the one who brought it up, and never said one word about her accent indicating anything towards intelligence despite several assumptions, how do you get that? She has excellent grasp on tactics and on when to listen and when to fight, but she explains things very simply and, as in this strip, assumes other people lack understanding basic conceptual constructs, which makes sense if she herself also has trouble understanding things.

Ergo, high wis, low int. As in the confines of how D&D treats wis and int separately.
A certain dreaded razor whose name I won't mention suggests that the simplest explanation for someone explaining things simply is not that their own thoughts are simple, but that they're used to doing this with people who see "POYZEN. Do Not Eet." as a challenge.


Does she assume people lack understanding, or does she assume Redcloak is going to not understand and focus instead on nitpicking the details of the metaphor she's about to make? You know, which he immediately does despite her telling him not to do so?

I'll definitely agree that Oona's WIS is higher than her INT, but aside from the colloquial indications of "low INT high WIS" I don't think we've really had any indications that she's actually low on INT. It's just not where she has focused most of her stat bonuses. Of course, as mentioned, D&D separating the two can lead to some difficulty in parsing things out - is the fact that Oona noticed Redcloak didn't answer her question about the dwarves a sign of Intelligence or Wisdom? It's up in the air.

At the same time, regardless of her actual scores, Oona is a lot more perceptive than Redcloak gives her credit for.
Lovely point about Redcloak specifically, vs people in general. Wrt Oona's interactions with Redcloak, I'm reminded of Tarquin's observation in 820 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html):
"Remember, Nale: Who knows that you know is as important as knowing it in the first place.
"But you look like a fool for being ignorant!"
"So what? Better to look the fool than be one."


Exactly what I was thinking. If you look at the last two strips, Oona clearly thinks Redcloak is an idiot - albeit a powerful one she needs to keep under control/distracted for the good of her tribe. Not a million miles from how RC sees Xykon, actually...

If you want signs of her being bad at reading sentients, her interactions with "Great Beast in Shadow" are a much better example.
I love this observation, but personally I think the original premise needs work. To my mind, reading sentients and knowing what to say to reach them (or leave them blissfully ignorant) is CHA plus elements of subconscious WIS. Insight into theoretical principles (concepts, spells, science, etc) is INT. Intuitive, practical application of INT (particularly when too many principles collide to be able to dissect them) is WIS.

I'd like to enter into evidence Exhibit A: (^_~)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2h3fwc4YXg


She not only lives with a bunch of bugbears, but (a) her closest companion is a Worg and (b) most of her stories about her family and clan indicate not too much going on upstairs with them, so I'd say she has had issues before.
Dadgummit, ninjaed while at work. Kudos, and the scale just leaned a little farther toward hate (or at least jealousy). (^_~)


;25523123']I think one of the most telling things about Oona's motivations is her line in the 11th panel of the comic. Right after stating she's pretty sure which village Redcloak will end up in, she immediately follows up with telling him that it's essentially her job to make sure he never has to make that choice.

She knows which village Redcloak is going to choose and with that knowledge she believes the best course of action is that he never has to choose. I think that really tells us everything we need to know about how she sees Redcloak, right?
Although others stated it earlier, I think this is my favorite way of refining the sentiment.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Honestly Oona and Redcloak have such a genuinely good dynamic I love seeing the two of them interact like this. We so rarely get friendly foils for Redcloak, and I'm so glad to see Oona stepping into that role

There was one once, but it ended, uh, poorly.

Also I completely agree.

[Ruck]

Redcloak is going to have to decide what's his real porpoise in life.

The time will come when he can't flipper-flop between both villages.

Aside, I think my biggest laugh in this strip was Oona's deeply intense, bordering on angry, forceful insistence that Redcloak understood that "living in two villages" was just a metaphor. I'm not sure whether it's funny because her behavior is so over-the-top; because of course Redcloak is smart enough to understand that; or because it implies that, at some point, she's used this metaphor, and some dull-witted Bugbear has tried to go find the village of Right-All-Along or whichever village was the topic of the metaphor at the time. I guess they're not mutually exclusive reasons it's funny.

[danielxcutter]

The time will come when he can't flipper-flop between both villages.

Aside, I think my biggest laugh in this strip was Oona's deeply intense, bordering on angry, forceful insistence that Redcloak understood that "living in two villages" was just a metaphor. I'm not sure whether it's funny because her behavior is so over-the-top; because of course Redcloak is smart enough to understand that; or because it implies that, at some point, she's used this metaphor, and some dull-witted Bugbear has tried to go find the village of Right-All-Along or whichever village was the topic of the metaphor at the time. I guess they're not mutually exclusive reasons it's funny.

I'm unironically sure the answer to that is "yes".

[Arthaiser]

so... redcloak thinks that he would choose the first village if the dolphins got the bridge, but oona thinks that he would choose the second one and is fighting the dolphins so that redcloak doesnt have to choose...

at least that is what i think about this exchange, could be very wrong because is actually complex. is something that it really like about this story, the plot is actually quite complex in the morality of all of it, the fact that we have so many pages about the "bad" guys also talking about the implications of their actions instead of just twirling their moustaches says a lot about it.

[Fyraltari]

so... redcloak thinks that he would choose the first village if the dolphins got the bridge, but oona thinks that he would choose the second one and is fighting the dolphins so that redcloak doesnt have to choose....

Pretty much. Except that Redcloak does not, in fact, agree that these are two different villages. He believes that he is, and was All Along, Right about What's Best for Goblins.

If he did recognize that he might be wrong about what's best for goblindom, they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

[ZhonLord]

Pretty much. Except that Redcloak does not, in fact, agree that these are two different villages. He believes that he is, and was All Along, Right about What's Best for Goblins.

If he did recognize that he might be wrong about what's best for goblindom, they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

There's also the "sensitive issue", namely what if the Dark One himself would refuse to back down once he learns that the gods will M.A.D. the world to keep the Dark One from being able to blackmail him? What if he pushes for it anyway, causing all his worshippers to die so he can cash out their souls and try to live until the next creation?

And if Redcloak balks at that once the information's on the divine table, will he lose his cleric powers? Will some random minion immediately be promoted to the new True Prophet of Goblinkind? It's entirely possible that redcloak feels pressured into keeping going even if on some level he DOES believe what Durkon and Minrah have told him.

[Fyraltari]

There's also the "sensitive issue", namely what if the Dark One himself would refuse to back down once he learns that the gods will M.A.D. the world to keep the Dark One from being able to blackmail him? What if he pushes for it anyway, causing all his worshippers to die so he can cash out their souls and try to live until the next creation?

And if Redcloak balks at that

He won't. "Our actions result in the destruction of the world and The Dark One gets to participate in the creation of the next world, insuring a better existence for the future goblins" has been Redcloak's Plan B since the very beginning. He says it is acceptable to him to Minrah and Durkon during their fight. Of course, this ignores the possibility of the Dark One not surviving until the next world or said world not being high fatasy-themed, but Redcloak doesn't trust the dwarves on this being possible.

[Ginasius]

Does Oona want to delay Redcloak finding the Gate, too?

I think Oona knows that if Redcloak's Plan requires her and her entire village to die miserable deaths, then he'll regret their deaths. Which again makes me wonder if she knows the Gate isn't behind a door (perhaps her people have over time explored behind all of them), and is playing for time?

Everything points to Oona having some contact with Serini. I am not saying that the two of them are necessarily allies, but such concern as Oona seems to have for the potential annihilation of her tribe or her entire species does not emerge from the knowledge she should have of the Gates, which to her so far have seemed only to be useful holes full of renewable prey. Someone must have informed her that the Gates are extremely dangerous.

[Reathin]

Oona's cheerful but sensible attitude, along with her penchant for odd metaphor, is rapidly raising her in my "favorite OOTS characters" list, like a hot air balloon lifted with the screams of elementals.

PARTICULARLY her concern that the metaphors might be taken literally. "THEY ARE NOT REAL PLACES" indeed XD

[Liquor Box]

I think it's more simple than that: no amount of wisdom or intelligence will allow you to see an answer you're unwilling to accept. Last comic he assumed Durkon's presence meant that forces were moving against him, he did it earlier in 1207 during Durkon's negotiation. He is unwilling to accept any result other than "The Plan works out" and successfully dupes Xykon into casting the ritual after they beat, or at least evade, the Order.

I think there will be some form of acceptance, in the end, as he finally becomes willing to imagine that The Plan won't work out, but it'll come after some very significant blows. Even Xykon dying, complete with the phylactery being destroyed, still wouldn't be enough. My guess is that it will have something to do with the archfiends and their plan with the artifact they talked about at one point.

Maybe. Intelligent and wisdom in DnD are nebulous concepts so it's hard to say anything about them with any certainty.

But I'm not sure it is just a blind spot, because this isn't the first time RC has managed to logic himself to a wrong conclusion. Another example, recently pointed to by someone else, was where he convinced himself that O-Chul must have information about Girrard's gate. There are other examples too, like Xykon frequently out maneuvering him.

People seem to assume Redcloak is clever, but I'm not sure there's any reason to think so. The plan isn't his, its The Dark One's.


I think, as others have said already, Oona's quick grasp of Redcloak's deeper motivations in their short time together indicates some decent amount of wisdom.

Perhaps, I wasn't really meaning to suggest Oona had low wisdom, only less than Redcloak.


I think Redcloak is too scholarly to have low intelligence.

What do you mean scholarly?

[danielxcutter]

I’m pretty sure the only part of the Plan TDO came up with is the capturing the Gates and the Ritual. Everything else is Redcloak.

[Fyraltari]

People seem to assume Redcloak is clever, but I'm not sure there's any reason to think so. The plan isn't his, its The Dark One's.

Redcloak came up with the three Xykons tactic, uses unconventionnal elementals, outplayed both Tsukiko and the Azurite Resistance and administrated Gobbotopia for about a year.

He's plenty clever, he's just generally unwilling to admit error on his part. Like, his assumption that O-Chul knew something about Girard's Gate made plenty of sense, it's clinging to it after it became more and more obvious that he didn't that was unreasonnable. And even then that was mostly an excuse to have Xykon stay in place while he built a goblin nation.

[Ranadiel]

Poor Oona. At least she is in good company with having her imaginary places taken as real places. She can share her pain with Plato, and he can tell her all about the allegory of Atlantis.

[hroþila]

I'd say Redcloak is generally at least somewhat open to changing his mind and admitting his mistakes - he did it when the hobgoblin soldier saved his life, he did it in SoD
when he decided to ditch the Plan and stay with Right-Eye, and arguably also right after killing Right-Eye, after talking with Xykon but before he had had the chance to rationalize it
There's probably other examples too. But while the sunk cost fallacy was definitely operating before the events at the end of SoD, turning back was still a real possibility. Not anymore - not unless something huge happens and turns his whole world upside down (and possibly not even then).

So rather than being unable to admit his mistakes and that being a sign of extraordinary stubborness or functionally (if not mechanically) low wisdom, I'd say Redcloak is a high-wisdom character who can be stubborn but who mostly has a glaring blind spot in regards to the sacrifices he's made (other goblins make). It's an irrational coping mechanism, but I don't think high-wisdom people are immune to that kind of thought pattern.

[TuringTest]

I love how high-wisdom Oona may be able to inspire some common sense in Red Cloak. So, trully, no character in OotS is irredeemable after all?

(No doubt either what side would Red Cloak will be tempted to choose either, but at least this conversation opens up a way for RC to even consider that there is a moral dilemma to be decided, when previously his position was an impenetrable shield.)


I imagine Oona had to explain the concept of metaphore to various monsters and other bugbears quite a lot of times

Me too. The pre-emptive explanation sounds like she has had to make that clarification many, many times before. Twice in a row even, like in the last panel... :smallbiggrin:

[Liquor Box]

Redcloak came up with the three Xykons tactic, uses unconventionnal elementals, outplayed both Tsukiko and the Azurite Resistance and administrated Gobbotopia for about a year.

He's plenty clever, he's just generally unwilling to admit error on his part. Like, his assumption that O-Chul knew something about Girard's Gate made plenty of sense, it's clinging to it after it became more and more obvious that he didn't that was unreasonnable. And even then that was mostly an excuse to have Xykon stay in place while he built a goblin nation.

Didn't Prime Minister Jirix administer Gobtopia? Tsukiko had figured out that Redcloak had a secret, she just lost to him in combat - if anything she acted more intelligently he just won the fight. Likewise with the resistance it just came down to who won the fight. He did think of turning Xykon into a Lich though (and knew how to do it).

On the other hand he lit the trees by the first gate on fire, destroying it, Xykon outplayed him when he thought to use Xykon's phylactery to control him, Xykon found him almost immediately when he thought to hide from him, Xykon was also one step ahead of Redcloak around Right Eye's attack.

Also the situation with O-Chul wasn;t a case of him being unwilling to admit he was wrong. He did admit it grudgingly when O-Chul pointed it out. It was a case of him thnking himself cleverer than he was.

[Sneaky 2.0]

Oona reiterating that the villages are not real (and to not go to either of them) resonated with me the most. Redcloak will cause problems with being in *either* village. 'Best for Goblins' was simply staying in Gobbotopia, and opened up political troubles (from elves, fiends, and being stagnant).

[BaronOfHell]

I wonder what is at the second bugbear village Oona doesn't want the red cloak to find?

[hroþila]

Didn't Prime Minister Jirix administer Gobtopia? Tsukiko had figured out that Redcloak had a secret, she just lost to him in combat - if anything she acted more intelligently he just won the fight. Likewise with the resistance it just came down to who won the fight.
Jirix wasn't the leader of occupied Azure City, he only became the leader when Gobbotopia was established in #703 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html), as Redcloak was preparing to leave. Tsukiko figured out there was a secret because as a mystic theurge she was uniquely equipped to do so, she didn't figure it out because of any mistakes on Redcloak's part, but simply by studying Xykon's half of the ritual. And she didn't simply lose to Redcloak in combat - that combat went down the way it did because Redcloak was prepared for it, not only when it comes to his room's magical defenses but also by taking control of Tsukiko's wights before there was even a confrontation. Saying Tsukiko just lost to him in combat like she wasn't outsmarted is like saying Thog just lost to Roy in the arena. As for the resistance, there would have been no fight if Redcloak hadn't located the resistance's headquarters in the first place, which he did by coming up with and executing a plan to infiltrate the resistence. Plenty of brains involved in the operation.

[hungrycrow]

Didn't Prime Minister Jirix administer Gobtopia? Tsukiko had figured out that Redcloak had a secret, she just lost to him in combat - if anything she acted more intelligently he just won the fight. Likewise with the resistance it just came down to who won the fight.

Redcloak ran it initially and then handed leadership over to Jirix.

Tsukiko broke into a high-level cleric's private room, and when "proof that Redcloak is a traitor" wasn't sitting on his desk she just asked him to his face, while still in his probably trapped room. She lost that fight because she didn't think things through at all and Redcloak did.

The Resistance getting crushed came down to him planting a spy, and I believe he intended the Resistance to get the phylactery so he could pull his switcheroo without anyone on Team Evil noticing.

Edit: ninja'd again

[Shining Wrath]

Redcloak, like the other characters, is as smart, and as wise, as the story requires him to be at any particular moment. People will do jaw-droppingly foolish things if the story requires them to do it (e.g., Roy taking Xykon on one-on-one on Xykon's mount).

Given the blurry edges between wisdom and intelligence, the need for plot to advance, and the fact that we can't accurately measure these things in the real world despite significant effort to do so, I hereby decree (using my Dad voice) that debating how smart Redcloak is compared to Oona is the Silliest Argument of the Day. Do not quibble with the Dad Voice.

[Pablo360]

Also him immediately nitpicking the metaphor and Oona grabbing him and telling him that it’s just a metaphor is hilarious.

It’s worth hanging on this point a bit. We all got a good chuckle out of Oona assuming Redcloak was going to take the metaphor literally and preemptively clarifying, but then he totally did just that. Granted, he did it as a defense mechanism rather than out of a failure to comprehend figurative language, but still.

[Jason]

I think there will be some form of acceptance, in the end, as he finally becomes willing to imagine that The Plan won't work out, but it'll come after some very significant blows. Even Xykon dying, complete with the phylactery being destroyed, still wouldn't be enough. My guess is that it will have something to do with the archfiends and their plan with the artifact they talked about at one point.
My money is on the idea that it will be when he finally meets the Dark One for the first time and sees that his god is not really who Redcloak thought he was.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think there will be some form of acceptance, in the end, as he finally becomes willing to imagine that The Plan won't work out, but it'll come after some very significant blows. Even Xykon dying, complete with the phylactery being destroyed, still wouldn't be enough. My guess is that it will have something to do with the archfiends and their plan with the artifact they talked about at one point.

Partly because the narrative force is indeed a thing in this world - thanks Elan :smallsmile: - I see Xykon being defeated or screwing with the plan being the equivalent of blowing up one of the villages (which one is up to personal interpretation). The drama will be when Redcloak could continue with the plan - as opposed to just starting the plan again with a new arcane caster - but at a cost he hadn't anticipated and couldn't bare. I think this is why many of us believed

(Start of Darkness spoils)
Right-Eye's daughter would play a role

Before Rich debunked that, as it would be an easy way to introduce that cost.

[danielxcutter]

It’s worth hanging on this point a bit. We all got a good chuckle out of Oona assuming Redcloak was going to take the metaphor literally and preemptively clarifying, but then he totally did just that. Granted, he did it as a defense mechanism rather than out of a failure to comprehend figurative language, but still.

Well yes, but that’s precisely one of the things making it hilarious.

[Nomen]

I think Redcloak is wise on paper. As a high level cleric he pretty much has to be.
But with mental stats that doesn't always pan out into actually being wise.
Wisdom and charisma are actually the worst stats for roleplay not matching paper stats.
Just look at early Elan.
Its also possible that TMITDs growth isn't reflected on paper.

I think the fact that Redcloak isn't willing to admit that there could be two villages is Oona's point.
Someone who's really in best for goblins camp would at least admit that its a legitimate fear.
I also like how there is no actual goblins in the village of right all along.

[Kilo24]

Pretty much. Except that Redcloak does not, in fact, agree that these are two different villages. He believes that he is, and was All Along, Right about What's Best for Goblins.

If he did recognize that he might be wrong about what's best for goblindom, they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

Possibly. It's also possible that he rationalizes that he's actually in What's Best for Goblins, and that those who refuse to agree with his apocalyptic brinksmanship are more interested in being Right All Along about some fake peace or power politicking than fixing the root cause of their problems. It's also possible he hasn't decided yet; that is likely considering that he was introduced to the metaphor in this strip and he was clearly looking for reassurance from Oona that he's doing the right thing (but self-evidently nothing else). If he does decide which village he's in (absent a redemption), I'd expect a holier-than-thou moral lecture to Oona or anyone else in the blast radius at the time - that the Giant then proves incoherent or irrelevant to everyone but Redcloak within the same strip.

Oona deftly defused a building self-righteous rant that could have provoked that conflict early. She clearly doesn't believe Redcloak realizing his errors is a practical possibility, and basically is just trying to humor this religious zealot in a way that will limit the chances of "everybody dies". When questioned about questioning his commitment, she readily shifted the conversation to "THIS IS A METAPHOR DON'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY" and nitpicking over dolphin dietary preferences. And that metaphor into a deflection is a way to answer his question of "Am I doing the right thing?" without either lying or pissing him off.

It's a skilled political dodge about an uncomfortable truth neither of them want to confront openly - all because both Redcloak and Oona are afraid of how Redcloak would react to it.

[dancrilis]

... all because both Redcloak and Oona are afraid of how Redcloak would react to it.

I don't get the impression that she fear him, does make me wonder if we will get to see some of her interactions with Xykon I have difficulty thinking that he would be as fine with being grabbed as Redcloak - but then she does hold him as the master of the monster in the shadows so maybe she thinks of him as a equal and Redcloak more as the teenager he looks like.

[arimareiji]

I don't get the impression that she fear him, does make me wonder if we will get to see some of her interactions with Xykon I have difficulty thinking that he would be as fine with being grabbed as Redcloak - but then she does hold him as the master of the monster in the shadows so maybe she thinks of him as a equal and Redcloak more as the teenager he looks like.

As weird as it sounds, I don't think she fears him per se, any more than Serini fears the paladins she captured. But both fear what they might do if the opportunity arises.

Possibly a clearer example, though it carries the principle too far by comparison to RC or the paladins: A parent doesn't fear their toddler. But it's very likely that they fear what might happen if they see their toddler playing with a fork near an uncovered electrical outlet.

[Kilo24]

I don't get the impression that she fear him, does make me wonder if we will get to see some of her interactions with Xykon I have difficulty thinking that he would be as fine with being grabbed as Redcloak - but then she does hold him as the master of the monster in the shadows so maybe she thinks of him as a equal and Redcloak more as the teenager he looks like.



But one more reason Oona is helping!

If Oona is fighting off dolphins on bridge while little man is being greatness, then bridge is never being eaten and everything is staying rosy and nice.


It's not necessarily that she fears his malice or him turning directly on her, but she does fear what would happen if things stop "staying rosy and nice". Otherwise, she wouldn't be afraid to tell him "get stuffed" instead of personally risking her life day in and day out in pursuit of his scheme to possibly end the world. Maybe it's what he can do to her, maybe it's what he can do to her village, maybe it's what he can do to goblinkind as a whole - but it's clear from this strip that she views him and his crusade as a volatile powder keg worth significant personal attention and delicate handling.

[MaverickMopete]

IOona believes he will admit error rather than double down on a failed Plan.

Unfortunately, he can't at this point.

As his brother so aptly pointed out in Start of Darkness...

"It's all about whose fault it is...If I kill Xykon now, then it was all a waste. You ordered goblins to their deaths believing in the Plan—so if we abandon it now, then you were wrong. You let them die for nothing. You're willing to throw good lives after bad so that you don't have to admit that we were wrong to work with Xykon in the first place, much less help him cheat death."

And given what that resulted in, we know Redcloak is already more than willing to double down on a failed Plan just to avoid admitting his error.

[Provengreil]

It's not necessarily that she fears his malice or him turning directly on her, but she does fear what would happen if things stop "staying rosy and nice". Otherwise, she wouldn't be afraid to tell him "get stuffed" instead of personally risking her life day in and day out in pursuit of his scheme to possibly end the world. Maybe it's what he can do to her, maybe it's what he can do to her village, maybe it's what he can do to goblinkind as a whole - but it's clear from this strip that she views him and his crusade as a volatile powder keg worth significant personal attention and delicate handling.

I like this take. Notably, a powder keg is rather indifferent to where it is when it goes off, and when it does it no longer matters who brought it there or why. Redcloak and his actions have become important in some way to literally every god in the setting, whether they admit it or not, and while Oona probably hasn't been filled in on it all she's surely picked up on the gravity of the situation.

[skim172]

Poor Oona. At least she is in good company with having her imaginary places taken as real places. She can share her pain with Plato, and he can tell her all about the allegory of Atlantis.

Dude! Spoilers! :smallfurious:

[Wraithfighter]

I'd say Redcloak is generally at least somewhat open to changing his mind and admitting his mistakes - he did it when the hobgoblin soldier saved his life, he did it in SoD
when he decided to ditch the Plan and stay with Right-Eye, and arguably also right after killing Right-Eye, after talking with Xykon but before he had had the chance to rationalize it
There's probably other examples too. But while the sunk cost fallacy was definitely operating before the events at the end of SoD, turning back was still a real possibility. Not anymore - not unless something huge happens and turns his whole world upside down (and possibly not even then).

So rather than being unable to admit his mistakes and that being a sign of extraordinary stubborness or functionally (if not mechanically) low wisdom, I'd say Redcloak is a high-wisdom character who can be stubborn but who mostly has a glaring blind spot in regards to the sacrifices he's made (other goblins make). It's an irrational coping mechanism, but I don't think high-wisdom people are immune to that kind of thought pattern.

Sure, but... how many people require someone literally sacrificing their lives to save you in order to knock it into your head that you're being a massive idiot?

If anything, that history with the Hobgoblins is pretty serious evidence of how stubborn and blind he really can be about this stuff. It took an extreme situation to realize that he was acting like a massive ponce, and only then did he change his views. And even then, it was only to more closely align with his plan, since he got battered that he should care for all Goblinkind, not just his flavor of Goblins.

To me, the question that Redcloak's most likely to struggle with is "What if The Plan is not the best thing for the Goblins?" Because in truth, everything that Redcloak's done has not been for the benefit of Goblins, its been for the benefit of The Plan, and while those two things have run parallel for a long time... if they ever do diverge, yeah, odds are high that he'll choose The Plan over The Goblins, and just lie to himself about it being for The Greater Good (the greater good).

[bunsen_h]

Aside, I think my biggest laugh in this strip was Oona's deeply intense, bordering on angry, forceful insistence that Redcloak understood that "living in two villages" was just a metaphor. I'm not sure whether it's funny because her behavior is so over-the-top; because of course Redcloak is smart enough to understand that; or because it implies that, at some point, she's used this metaphor, and some dull-witted Bugbear has tried to go find the village of Right-All-Along or whichever village was the topic of the metaphor at the time. I guess they're not mutually exclusive reasons it's funny.

It may merely harken back to "classic bugbear debate technique (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html)".

[TheNecrocomicon]

How can this be

... for The Greater Good (the greater good).

SHUT IT!

[RayGallade]

The whole time I was reading this, I thought Oona was saying "little bad man." Imagine my confusion at how cordially the conversation was going.

[The MunchKING]

I imagine Oona had to explain the concept of metaphore to various monsters and other bugbears quite a lot of times

I wonder if the reason she stresses how not-real they are is not only are the villages metaphorical, they are also not-real in the sense that Oona doesn't even think they are obtainable.



(though now I'm wondering if Redcloak will ascend in the end and become the new God of the Goblins, if enough Goblins and Hobgoblins admire him enough)

It'd half the purple quiddity's reserves of souls assuming he and the Dark One would be the same pantheon and each "ate" the same number to sustain the Pantheon through the Time Between Worlds.


There's plenty of candidates for that. The IFCC have some sort of uber-powerful hellish artefact in their possession that is key to their ambitions on the material plane. Perhaps there will be a choice between "destroy the cloak and the Dark One's influence, versus destroy the IFCC's capability to set the universe in flames" and it'll be a case of destroying the greater evil while leaving TDO's conduit still able to function for good or for ill.

From what I recall Disjunction has a pretty good range. You could just move both within the AoE.

[Jason]

And even then, it was only to more closely align with his plan, since he got battered that he should care for all Goblinkind, not just his flavor of Goblins.Right. It was not a major paradigm shift for Redcloak. He simply began seeing hobgoblins (and other goblinoids) as part of his particular tribe.


To me, the question that Redcloak's most likely to struggle with is "What if The Plan is not the best thing for the Goblins?" Because in truth, everything that Redcloak's done has not been for the benefit of Goblins, its been for the benefit of The Plan, and while those two things have run parallel for a long time... if they ever do diverge, yeah, odds are high that he'll choose The Plan over The Goblins, and just lie to himself about it being for The Greater Good (the greater good).
Redcloak has not even always chosen what is best for The Plan. He has done what is best for The Plan as long as it is also in line with him being Right-All-Along.

[Faldrath]

One thing I just noticed - Oona grabs Redcloak by the cloak at the end of the strip. It might be nothing, but most religions/organized beliefs have very strict rules about who can touch sacred relics and heavy sanctions for those who break the rules. I cannot remember any other instance of someone touching the cloak other than Redcloak (maybe Xykon?)...

[Particle_Man]

A minor quibble, but I took it as less "you might have to choose between your ego and your goals" and more as "you might have to choose between swallowing your pride and accepting what's best for everyone without getting everything you wanted or making pretty horrible sacrifices on the basis that you never compromised your ideals." Redcloak's problem here is very much that his stated goals about getting what is best for all goblins are potentially at odds with the fact that "what's best for all goblins" may not line up with all the sacrifices he's already made.

It is, in many ways, exactly what Serini asked Roy just to see what he would say. "Are you willing to pick the option that kind of sucks for you personally and involves eating crow if it actually results in the most good done for the most people?"

This seems like a parallel to the "temptation of V" by the Three Fiends, where it is more important that V do the saving, than V swallowing their pride to ensure that the saving is done, albeit by others.

I wonder if the Red Cloak power is to grant clerical ability based on one's highest mental stat, whether it is wisdom, intelligence or charisma? That might fit the RC having high int, low wis theory, down to having a similar dilemma to V.

As to V casting Disjunction to save the day, the 3 Fiends have that Ace in the Hole of basically taking V out of the main storyline whenever it suits them, unless V can find some other way to proactively burn up the remaining time owed before the appropriate time for the Disjunction.

I also wonder if Oona's last statement about the dolphins eating the bridge right now is merely a sign of showing that she can control her imagination, or also a sign of her pessimism about the bridge holding for long (Greyview obviously thinks it won't, of course).

Also interesting that Greyview understands the metaphor. Is Greyview wise or has Oona previously had to explain what a metphor is to Greyview?

[Fyraltari]

One thing I just noticed - Oona grabs Redcloak by the cloak at the end of the strip. It might be nothing, but most religions/organized beliefs have very strict rules about who can touch sacred relics and heavy sanctions for those who break the rules. I cannot remember any other instance of someone touching the cloak other than Redcloak (maybe Xykon?)...

In bugbear culture, Dark One is being no big deal.

[Faldrath]

In bugbear culture, Dark One is being no big deal.

True, but for Redcloak himself it might be a very big deal indeed. (Unrelated, an amusing left field thought: what if Oona received a message from the Dark One after touching the cloak? I don't think it will happen but it wouldn't be impossible)

[nineGardens]

I wonder if the reason she stresses how not-real they are is not only are the villages metaphorical, they are also not-real in the sense that Oona doesn't even think they are obtainable.



Everyone seems to think that Oona is being a bit of a derp for Telling Redcloak that the villages don't exist and a metaphorical....
Except then, like... thirty seconds later he complains about dolphins not eating bridges, and she has to explain YET AGAIN that the village (and bridges!) are not real, and are in fact metaphorical. So like.... it's not like she was entirely off base with the earlier warning, its just that Redcloak took the wrong lesson from it. Which is silly of him.


On the other hand, I'm not nearly as convinced as everyone else seems to be that he took the wrong message in panel nine.
Oona says she knows which he will pick, while leaving things diplomatically ambiguous. I think he knows what she is implying. Its just that she has worded things in an ambiguous enough way that both of them have an out- a way to de-escalate the conversation. My read is this isn't Oona misleading him, this is her being very direct (while Xykon is away!), but also ... not doing anything that will directly attack the bridge he is standing on. The ambiguity isn't meant for deception, its meant for the sake of leaving the bridge in tact.

[InvisibleBison]

It'd half the purple quiddity's reserves of souls assuming he and the Dark One would be the same pantheon and each "ate" the same number to sustain the Pantheon through the Time Between Worlds.

Quiddities don't have reserves of souls; gods have reserves of souls. Redcloak becoming a god wouldn't do anything to the Dark One's ability to survive until the next world.



As to V casting Disjunction to save the day, the 3 Fiends have that Ace in the Hole of basically taking V out of the main storyline whenever it suits them, unless V can find some other way to proactively burn up the remaining time owed before the appropriate time for the Disjunction.

There is a pretty simple solution to that problem: V can kill themselves, sending their soul to the two directors that haven't cashed in yet, and after the appropriate amount of time Durkon can resurrect them.

[Empiar93]

Does anyone else get a sense that Redcloak is going to die? Everything from Redcloak revealing he never spoke to TDO, the previous strip’s comment from Oona about her cousin kicking the bucket, this conversation too, I have a very strong feeling that Redcloak is going to pick his village, be killed for his hubris, speak openly with the Dark One, and then realize the giant lifelong mistake he’s been making just in time for a resurrection for which he is brought back to contribute his quiddity.

That is my full blown prediction. Two issues that I have are
1). how precisely can the story be resolved if this is the series of events (as in, can I realistically see this happening - and maybe I can).
2). That would make this foreshadowing way too blatant and I doubt Rich would literally just spell it out like this.

[Dame_Mechanus]

There is a pretty simple solution to that problem: V can kill themselves, sending their soul to the two directors that haven't cashed in yet, and after the appropriate amount of time Durkon can resurrect them.

That's assuming that they decide to cash in their lease on V's soul at that time. We've seen it pretty handily demonstrated that they have a clear ability to keep track of V and what V is doing at any given moment, and while it might be possible for the plan to be communicated via telepathic commands that the directors can't overhear, it seems at least somewhat unlikely that the IFCC wouldn't see even Belkar killing V as somewhat suspicious. There's nothing in the contract that specifies V's soul will immediately go to them the instant V dies, after all.

Now, part of me thinks that it is at least faintly possible for V to hit on a similar solution independently and attempt to deny the IFCC access to them through some means. But it seems unlikely that it'll be as simple "and now just kill me and bring me back in half an hour."

[Wintermoot]

There is a pretty simple solution to that problem: V can kill themselves, sending their soul to the two directors that haven't cashed in yet, and after the appropriate amount of time Durkon can resurrect them.

I think that is an extremely clever and witty solution to the problem and, if I was the DM presenting this situation, i would absolutely let it work for being creative and hilariously out-of-the-box.

However, in the context of the narrative and given the extreme gamemanship of the three villains, I feel like they could fairly easily bypass this workaround by simply saying "Again, our agreement had no language in it about your death. You may be dead and on your way to the TN afterlife, and we chose to NOT exercise our option at this point, thus retaining the option for future purposes." then, after 30 minutes in the TN afterlife, the resurrect V and find out that they accomplished nothing but throwing away some diamond dust.

[Ruck]

Everything points to Oona having some contact with Serini.

I'm not sure of anything that points to that.


What do you mean scholarly?

Studious is another word. He reads a lot, he studies a lot, he takes an academic interest in matters like the Snarl. Plus we know he's come up with a number of plans which would require a high intelligence, as other people have provided examples.


It may merely harken back to "classic bugbear debate technique (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html)".

Ha. She didn't get the chance to hit him, though. Yet.

[bunsen_h]

It'd half the purple quiddity's reserves of souls assuming he and the Dark One would be the same pantheon and each "ate" the same number to sustain the Pantheon through the Time Between Worlds.

If the gods' plan for locking down the Snarl works, that shouldn't be a problem. There would be thousands of years for the Dark One and Redcloak to both store up enough nourishment to last them through another interregnum. It becomes an issue if the world gets destroyed immediately, because then the energy from the goblins' deaths would be divided. Though there probably aren't many goblins who worship Redcloak in a meaningful sense, at this point, so the Dark One probably wouldn't lose much. (There may well be a few, since Redcloak is a charismatic leader, and some minions are Easily Confused.)

[Particle_Man]

That's assuming that they decide to cash in their lease on V's soul at that time. We've seen it pretty handily demonstrated that they have a clear ability to keep track of V and what V is doing at any given moment, and while it might be possible for the plan to be communicated via telepathic commands that the directors can't overhear, it seems at least somewhat unlikely that the IFCC wouldn't see even Belkar killing V as somewhat suspicious. There's nothing in the contract that specifies V's soul will immediately go to them the instant V dies, after all.

Now, part of me thinks that it is at least faintly possible for V to hit on a similar solution independently and attempt to deny the IFCC access to them through some means. But it seems unlikely that it'll be as simple "and now just kill me and bring me back in half an hour."

Also, didn't the IFCC think that they had a 50% chance of getting V's soul anyway after V dies? If they have that soul "for free" after V dies, then I don't think the IFCC would have to cash in their "extra minutes" between V's death and (probable) resurrection.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Also, didn't the IFCC think that they had a 50% chance of getting V's soul anyway after V dies? If they have that soul "for free" after V dies, then I don't think the IFCC would have to cash in their "extra minutes" between V's death and (probable) resurrection.

I always figured that was less a prediction and more of a "half of the time, if a mortal is willing to do this, they're probably not going to be the sort to seek redemption in the first place," but this is also a pertinent point to consider. Why call in a bonus when you're likely to get it anyway?

[Provengreil]

Also, didn't the IFCC think that they had a 50% chance of getting V's soul anyway after V dies? If they have that soul "for free" after V dies, then I don't think the IFCC would have to cash in their "extra minutes" between V's death and (probable) resurrection.

I'm pretty sure the 50/50 comment was more a figure of speech, but whether one of them gets it or not is probably irrelevant to the actual contract. Most likely, the fact that they can grab V at any time means the timer can happen at any time and has no relation to V's current location or state of health. That leaves them with 3 options:

Interrupt things in the mortal realm regardless of afterlife destination.
get the soul with no incoming res and the contract, while valid, no longer really matters.
don't get the soul with no incoming res and the contract is again still valid but largely useless.

In fact, given how incredibly lenient the terms were for the mortal here, I doubt the fiends would even bother to cash in the rest of the time if V died and stayed dead. All they can do is strap them to a table and annoy them half an hour at that point.

[Elenna]

Oona is swiftly climbing up my list of favourite characters.

[dancrilis]

Everyone seems to think that Oona is being a bit of a derp for Telling Redcloak that the villages don't exist and a metaphorical....

I get more of the impression that she thinks she is one of the smartest people around (she might very well be) and is so used to talking down to people that she can't really see when they can actually somewhat keep up.



On the other hand, I'm not nearly as convinced as everyone else seems to be that he took the wrong message in panel nine.
I think it is virtually impossible for him to take the wrong message - he thinks he is living in one village i.e that Oona is wrong (or such is my impression from panel 11).

[Kilo24]

It may merely harken back to "classic bugbear debate technique (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html)".

I suspect she overemphasized it to sidetrack Redcloak from pressing forward with "Do you doubt my intentions?" If he got too spun up over that question - as he started to by saying "I don't see how to take that as anything but an insult" - she could cut him off with "BRIDGE EATING DOLPHINS NOT REAL!!! VILLAGES NOT REAL!!!" and blow up the conversation on a technicality. Which is much safer than Redcloak potentially talking himself into thinking her lack of total support of him personally is a danger to The Plan.

He brought up the topic to validate himself. By safely crashing the conversation into a wall, she avoids both landmines of lying to him and telling the truth.

[bunsen_h]

In fact, given how incredibly lenient the terms were for the mortal here, I doubt the fiends would even bother to cash in the rest of the time if V died and stayed dead. All they can do is strap them to a table and annoy them half an hour at that point.

It would be prudent to hold that option in reserve more or less indefinitely, against the possibility of V being raised at some point in the future. By the use of increasingly powerful and improbable magic as time goes by, of course.

[danielxcutter]

How can this be


SHUT IT!

…Am I missing a joke?


I'm pretty sure the 50/50 comment was more a figure of speech, but whether one of them gets it or not is probably irrelevant to the actual contract. Most likely, the fact that they can grab V at any time means the timer can happen at any time and has no relation to V's current location or state of health. That leaves them with 3 options:

Interrupt things in the mortal realm regardless of afterlife destination.
get the soul with no incoming res and the contract, while valid, no longer really matters.
don't get the soul with no incoming res and the contract is again still valid but largely useless.

In fact, given how incredibly lenient the terms were for the mortal here, I doubt the fiends would even bother to cash in the rest of the time if V died and stayed dead. All they can do is strap them to a table and annoy them half an hour at that point.

Y’know, this isn’t the first time I’ve been glad that OotS isn’t an actual game because the pact still feels like a jackass DM move to me.

[GregTD]

The second to last panel reminds me of "Mr. Dooleys" definition of a fanataic:
He's someone who's "on the side the good Lord would be on if he had all the facts"


I really love Oona's analysis

[GregTD]

Everyone seems to think that Oona is being a bit of a derp for Telling Redcloak that the villages don't exist and a metaphorical

Seriously? In that case i won't be reading early comments. Oona's keeping Redclock from coming up with excuses to ignore the lesson



On the other hand, I'm not nearly as convinced as everyone else seems to be that he took the wrong message in panel nine.
Oona obviously knows Redcloak is living in the village of Right_All_Along
Redcloak knows this too, but won't admit it to himself


My read is this isn't Oona misleading him, this is her being very direct (while Xykon is away!), but also ... not doing anything that will directly attack the bridge he is standing on. The ambiguity isn't meant for deception, its meant for the sake of leaving the bridge in tact.

The ambiguity to to keep Redcloak from murdering her right now, with the hope that some of what she is saying will eventually sneak past some of his defenses.

Because it's obvious right now that he won't listen

[No good @ names]

And I find it reassuring that the Giant pretty much just affirmed through a clearly correct character that Redcloak's motivations is largely "I have to believe that I wasn't wrong to kill my brother, which means I have to believe that dialogue won't work and that working with Xykon isn't a mistake."

No jarring difference in how the audience vs the author see the character is coming our way. Whatever the end will be, it will be entrenched in Redcloak's established character flaws.


Killing Right-Eye for the sake of the plan/Goblinkind getting some divine power wasn’t necessarily the wrong choice at the time. The offer from the established pantheons wasn’t on the table at the time. Redcloak may have some inertia about changing course, as in additional to standard ego, in hindsight it might seem like Right-Eye’s death was pointless but that doesn’t mean Redcloak has to see himself as being Wrong-All-Along in order to brought over to Thor/Loki’s plan.


I think everyone is giving Durkon too much credit as a messenger/diplomat of the gods. It’s quite reasonable to be suspicious of a sudden offer of peace and friendship. It could a Trojan Horse.

[Peelee]

…Am I missing a joke?

A whole movie, in fact. Hot Fuzz.

[The MunchKING]

Quiddities don't have reserves of souls; gods have reserves of souls. Redcloak becoming a god wouldn't do anything to the Dark One's ability to survive until the next world.

PANTHEONS have reserves as well. Hence why I said he would cut down on how the goblin souls got divided.



There is a pretty simple solution to that problem: V can kill themselves, sending their soul to the two directors that haven't cashed in yet, and after the appropriate amount of time Durkon can resurrect them.

Assuming it works that way. Aside from the fact she might spend loads of time in a waiting room, who's to say her soul would be judged as one of the two specific flavors of evil necessary to go to the afterlife of one of the remaining two? And even IF that worked, it would only get her off the hook to one, as the other could simply not cash in and leave her in the afterlife until Durkon dragged her out.



However, in the context of the narrative and given the extreme gamemanship of the three villains, I feel like they could fairly easily bypass this workaround by simply saying "Again, our agreement had no language in it about your death. You may be dead and on your way to the TN afterlife, and we chose to NOT exercise our option at this point, thus retaining the option for future purposes." then, after 30 minutes in the TN afterlife, the resurrect V and find out that they accomplished nothing but throwing away some diamond dust.

And LEVELS. On their primary offensive caster no less. That would be the much bigger sacrifice.


Y’know, this isn’t the first time I’ve been glad that OotS isn’t an actual game because the pact still feels like a jackass DM move to me.

Really? I think it's incredibly generous for giving you 60+ bonus caster levels, a bunch of Epic Spells, and the ability to spontaneously cast the whole load. And 60 levels worth of feats too apparently.

[TaiLiu]

Right, but only under duress and in a way that relied upon him first realizing that he was acting like Xykon. I don't think it's impossible for Redcloak to make the right decision, but it's going to take a really heavy blow to his ego... like finding out that Xykon has figured out his "plan" ages ago and was paying closer attention than Redcloak thought at the time.
Right, but that's fine. (For us and for the OOTS world, not for him.) It's a hard road, but I think he'll get to the right village eventually.


Well, not so far as Tsukiko and Redcloak know. I mean, if you suspect your immediate lieutenant is lying to you (which Xykon clearly does), you might not let him know what you can do to know more.
That seems unlikely to me. I think if he could've pulled off epic divination, he would've tracked down V and everyone's favorite paladin. They did nearly destroy his soul hidey-place.



I'm not sure where you're getting that unearned confidence. Apart from rare exceptions of clarity, Redcloak has an established pattern of doubling down time and again on his beloved plans at the expense of reason. He's basically Miko but evil. Something truly fundamental would have to happen to change that, and Redcloak has made a character trait out of getting aggressive at any challenge to the all-important superiority of his plans. His potential redemption just doesn't add up as plausible to me. His self-destructive death, by contrast, does.
Well, we know that Elan's gonna have a happy ending, so I think the gates really will be sealed in the end with the purple god energy. I just think the most likely scenario for a purple ninth-level spell slot being used is if Redcloak does it. It seems like no other clerics, let alone Dark One-worshipping clerics, are capable of such a feat.

Hence my confidence. I think he's gonna get lost on the way to the right village, but he's gonna make it.

[fishhead202]

I feel like I need to re-evaluate several of my life decisions now.

[danielxcutter]

Really? I think it's incredibly generous for giving you 60+ bonus caster levels, a bunch of Epic Spells, and the ability to spontaneously cast the whole load. And 60 levels worth of feats too apparently.

For like 20 in-game minutes. And also ended up costing V immensely even outside the pact itself. In exchange for being taken out of the game whenever the "DM" feels like it and probably has even more ramifications down the line.

Honestly I don't really like DStP as a whole especially from the quasi-game approach because a lot of it really kinda feels like the "DM" is actively trying to make the "players" suffer. Yes, I am aware that this is not an actual game but on the flip side I'm of the opinion that's why those were "okay" at all - many things there would be complete asspulls for the sole sake of screwing them over.

[RatElemental]

So, hands up who thinks Oona is placing little-bald-cape-man in a different village to the one he's placing himself in

I for one would absolutely believe that she believes Redcloak is going to betray the goblin people if it comes down to the wire and is still cheerfully working with him anyway.

[Ionathus]

For like 20 in-game minutes. And also ended up costing V immensely even outside the pact itself. In exchange for being taken out of the game whenever the "DM" feels like it and probably has even more ramifications down the line.

I mean, your game is your own, but the Soul Splice is exactly the kind of stuff my players would eat up. I toss them "Power at a Cost" choices frequently and they eat it up like 60% of the time, and they ALWAYS engage with it either way.

I firmly believe that it should be not only allowed, but encouraged and even incentivized for PCs to make "bad" choices in game. Obviously game-changing powerups with obvious future ominousness are a key example of that. If your players trust the world and the game, they're occasionally going to be willing to take that particular ball and run with it.


Honestly I don't really like DStP as a whole especially from the quasi-game approach because a lot of it really kinda feels like the "DM" is actively trying to make the "players" suffer. Yes, I am aware that this is not an actual game but on the flip side I'm of the opinion that's why those were "okay" at all - many things there would be complete asspulls for the sole sake of screwing them over.

What elements of DStP felt like asspulls to you? I'm curious because that book felt like the first time the story stepped AWAY from using obviously contrived coincidences to manipulate the plot. Compared to War and XPs -- where we had Roy barely missing the correct Oracle prediction, Durkon's permission to come home letter being lost due to coincidence, Mike appearing Diabolus-Ex-Machina seconds before Soon could kill Team Evil -- compared to that, DStP feels refreshingly character-driven.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, your game is your own, but the Soul Splice is exactly the kind of stuff my players would eat up. I toss them "Power at a Cost" choices frequently and they eat it up like 60% of the time, and they ALWAYS engage with it either way.

I firmly believe that it should be not only allowed, but encouraged and even incentivized for PCs to make "bad" choices in game. Obviously game-changing powerups with obvious future ominousness are a key example of that. If your players trust the world and the game, they're occasionally going to be willing to take that particular ball and run with it.

Well losing your family, inadvertently slaughtering thousands, and being straight up taken out of the game are prettybig costs honestly.


What elements of DStP felt like asspulls to you? I'm curious because that book felt like the first time the story stepped AWAY from using obviously contrived coincidences to manipulate the plot. Compared to War and XPs -- where we had Roy barely missing the correct Oracle prediction, Durkon's permission to come home letter being lost due to coincidence, Mike appearing Diabolus-Ex-Machina seconds before Soon could kill Team Evil -- compared to that, DStP feels refreshingly character-driven.

Let's see, the imp who managed to pull an advanced pit fiend from thin air is a pretty good place to start. What about Celia taking Roy's corpse to a golem-maker - and one that specialized in flesh golem of all things, so everything Haley, Celia, and Belkar could have done wouldn't have done much? What about the thieves' guild having an NPC who literally had a build to counter Haley, and another who was at least 18th-level while Belkar was out of commission and Celia unwilling to properly contribute to the fight? What about Celia basically making a deal that involved Haley handing over all of her WBL? What about the ancient black dragon with class levels and a counter build who effectively forced V to either lose a level or take a fiend pact?

Yeah, a comic tells a story in a different way than a game does, and that's probably for the better because these would not really slide easily at most tables.

[arimareiji]

I mean, your game is your own, but the Soul Splice is exactly the kind of stuff my players would eat up. I toss them "Power at a Cost" choices frequently and they eat it up like 60% of the time, and they ALWAYS engage with it either way.

I firmly believe that it should be not only allowed, but encouraged and even incentivized for PCs to make "bad" choices in game. Obviously game-changing powerups with obvious future ominousness are a key example of that. If your players trust the world and the game, they're occasionally going to be willing to take that particular ball and run with it.
I would eat it up too. If you can't make bad choices, then you can't make meaningful ones - and imo, being able to see the results of life choices at a remove is one of the best aspects of RPGs. It facilitates (and creates the opportunity to practice) self-honesty without ego on the line, and humans typically need all the help they can get in that regard. (Me absolutely included.)


What elements of DStP felt like asspulls to you? I'm curious because that book felt like the first time the story stepped AWAY from using obviously contrived coincidences to manipulate the plot. Compared to War and XPs -- where we had Roy barely missing the correct Oracle prediction, Durkon's permission to come home letter being lost due to coincidence, Mike appearing Diabolus-Ex-Machina seconds before Soon could kill Team Evil -- compared to that, DStP feels refreshingly character-driven.
Hehe, diabolus ex machina. Very well played. (^_^)b


Let's see, the imp who managed to pull an advanced pit fiend from thin air is a pretty good place to start. What about Celia taking Roy's corpse to a golem-maker - and one that specialized in flesh golem of all things, so everything Haley, Celia, and Belkar could have done wouldn't have done much? What about the thieves' guild having an NPC who literally had a build to counter Haley, and another who was at least 18th-level while Belkar was out of commission and Celia unwilling to properly contribute to the fight? What about Celia basically making a deal that involved Haley handing over all of her WBL? What about the ancient black dragon with class levels and a counter build who effectively forced V to either lose a level or take a fiend pact?

Yeah, a comic tells a story in a different way than a game does, and that's probably for the better because these would not really slide easily at most tables.
The imp, absolutely... although it did give rise to one of my favorite V lines in response (last panel) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html). XD

Celia's series of farfetched misunderstandings leading to Grubwiggler, too.

But after those, the rest don't seem far off-course for a game that has the handicap of trying to thread high-level players into a roughly-level-appropriate adventure story. Or seem on par with the reality that sometimes intelligent people get their heads stuck halfway up their pelvis (Celia's deal). Or seem like unwanted-but-realistic consequences that players aren't usually made to consider (Dragonmom).

[The MunchKING]

For like 20 in-game minutes. And also ended up costing V immensely even outside the pact itself. In exchange for being taken out of the game whenever the "DM" feels like it and probably has even more ramifications down the line.

Yeah, but people would sell their souls to the lower planes FOREVER for that kind of power in games, so just "as long as the Soul Splice" is really quite good.


Well losing your family, inadvertently slaughtering thousands, and being straight up taken out of the game are prettybig costs honestly.

She didn't inadvertently slaughter thousands, she willingly and deliberately slaughtered thousands. (I mean she may have gotten a few more than she thought, but she knew the chance was there. And she lost her family, not from the demon contract, but because of her words and deeds afterward, what with the prioritizing vengeance on the ABD over any non-life-threatening injuries, and the holding of the dark power over Inky.

[Provengreil]

Y’know, this isn’t the first time I’ve been glad that OotS isn’t an actual game because the pact still feels like a jackass DM move to me.

Shock and surprise, literal deals with devils are a bad idea even when they sound good.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Let's see, the imp who managed to pull an advanced pit fiend from thin air is a pretty good place to start. What about Celia taking Roy's corpse to a golem-maker - and one that specialized in flesh golem of all things, so everything Haley, Celia, and Belkar could have done wouldn't have done much? What about the thieves' guild having an NPC who literally had a build to counter Haley, and another who was at least 18th-level while Belkar was out of commission and Celia unwilling to properly contribute to the fight? What about Celia basically making a deal that involved Haley handing over all of her WBL? What about the ancient black dragon with class levels and a counter build who effectively forced V to either lose a level or take a fiend pact?

None of these seem especially more outrageous than anything else that happens in the story. You could describe pretty much any chapter like this.

Elan blowing up the first gate out of stupidity? Shojo sending Miko after the Order instead of somebody more stable, and the storm that conveniently allowed her to defeat them? The charms on the Oracle's valley wiping Roy's memory right as he realised he misinterpreted the Oracle's prediction? Titanium elementals? Miko choosing to blow up the gate right before Xykon and Redcloak would have otherwise been killed? Draketooth lying about the location of the gate? Elan's dad-- just, everything about him? Draketooth being related to black dragons? V falling into a trap? The IFCC's conditions allowing them to prevent V from communicating with the party? Malack's build being perfectly set up to defeat both Durkon and Belkar? The Godsmoot votes being almost perfectly balanced, enough for Hel to sway them? Dvalin's rules being so easily circumvented with domination? And on and on and on.

Like yeah, there's a bunch of bad things that happen which perhaps might not have happened if things unfolded differently. That happens in every single chapter. That doesn't feel like a DSTP thing. Bad things happen because that is how stories work.

[Vikenlugaid]

I'm curious at this point in time: What do people think Oona's alignment likely is? I'm leaning towards somewhere in Neutral, despite being part of "Team Evil"

She wanted to kill 2 humans to feed MitD so probably is evil.

[danielxcutter]

None of these seem especially more outrageous than anything else that happens in the story. You could describe pretty much any chapter like this.

Elan blowing up the first gate out of stupidity? Shojo sending Miko after the Order instead of somebody more stable, and the storm that conveniently allowed her to defeat them? The charms on the Oracle's valley wiping Roy's memory right as he realised he misinterpreted the Oracle's prediction? Titanium elementals? Miko choosing to blow up the gate right before Xykon and Redcloak would have otherwise been killed? Draketooth lying about the location of the gate? Elan's dad-- just, everything about him? Draketooth being related to black dragons? V falling into a trap? The IFCC's conditions allowing them to prevent V from communicating with the party? Malack's build being perfectly set up to defeat both Durkon and Belkar? The Godsmoot votes being almost perfectly balanced, enough for Hel to sway them? Dvalin's rules being so easily circumvented with domination? And on and on and on.

Like yeah, there's a bunch of bad things that happen which perhaps might not have happened if things unfolded differently. That happens in every single chapter. That doesn't feel like a DSTP thing. Bad things happen because that is how stories work.

I mean a lot of those actually felt plausible - but it felt like DStP was a back-to-back marathon of "DM screwing with the party".

Like seriously, an advanced pit fiend?

[Fyraltari]

Shock and surprise, literal deals with devils are a bad idea even when they sound good.

https://wallpapercave.com/mwp/wp5338281.jpg

[hroþila]

I mean a lot of those actually felt plausible - but it felt like DStP was a back-to-back marathon of "DM screwing with the party".

Like seriously, an advanced pit fiend?
It's just, it makes sense to think "if this was a game this would be a bad DM", but even if you say you're aware that there is no DM and that this is a story and not a game, it comes across as you totally judging the story as if it were a game with a DM.

[Potatopeelerkin]

I mean a lot of those actually felt plausible - but it felt like DStP was a back-to-back marathon of "DM screwing with the party".

Like seriously, an advanced pit fiend?

The advanced pit fiend was ultimately a very minor speedbump for the party. The only major consequence to that whole situation was Therkla's death, who was a character that first appeared in DSTP anyway. If anything the Order came out ahead, since Kubota died as a result too.

Like, sure, it wasn't likely the imp would summon a dangerous fiend, which was lampshaded by the comic itself, but it ultimately was not actually that big of a deal.

[Vikenlugaid]

No one else seems to have thought that because it's incredibly tortured logic at best. You pretty much have to start with the conclusion that the Order decided to use the monsters to wear down Team Evil and work from there, which is in no way supported by the events we actually see. Also, they ran into a marked door with recently cleared snow, which even the slightest application of logic would suggest to be a recently cleared dungeon anyway, and tried to hide their tracks: the best way to use the monsters would be to use their scent to make the bad guys follow them into an unmarked door with a snow pile.

I can't think of a single factor in the comic that supports your conclusion here.

Only that they actually said Team Evil was going to be weakened for fighting with the monsters and the Order wanted to use that factor in their ambush.
So, yes, if they want to actually treat monsters like people, that is not a good start.

[Shining Wrath]

Any time there are gods and magic involved, you shouldn't ask for the plot to follow the laws of probability. As a guy said in what is generally regarded as a well-written tale:


There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides that of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, in which case you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.

[Shining Wrath]

Only that they actually said Team Evil was going to be weakened for fighting with the monsters and the Order wanted to use that factor in their ambush.
So, yes, if they want to actually treat monsters like people, that is not a good start.

The Order didn't actually want Team Evil to pursue them. But given that Team Evil was pursuing them and was likely to encounter monsters and fight them, that was to the Order's advantage.

[Bacon Elemental]

Glad to finally see where Oona stands. She's been something of an unknown follower, but now we can see she's

A) Completely on the side of Goblins Now over Goblins Theoretical,
B) Completely aware that Redcloak will choose Goblins Theoretical for personal reasons if ever forced,
C) Dedicated to making sure his plan works now so he isnt ever forced to make that choice,
D) Already used to having to beat her villagers over the head with the concept of metaphors :smallbiggrin:

[Dame_Mechanus]

That seems unlikely to me. I think if he could've pulled off epic divination, he would've tracked down V and everyone's favorite paladin. They did nearly destroy his soul hidey-place.

To be clear, I actually pretty much agree with you on this point - my point is not to say that Xykon definitely has epic-level and incredibly reliable divination tricks at his disposal that he just hasn't used on-panel at this point, but just to avoid discounting it out of hand. It's not something that can be altogether ruled out based on what we know about Xykon, his propensity to pick up additional tricks, and his general resourcefulness.

It is entirely possible for this to be incorrect and even if Xykon has figured out Redcloak is lying to him for it to be through altogether mundane means. I just wouldn't be stunned if Xykon revealed he magically knew more than he let on.

[Eric the White]

Pretty much. Except that Redcloak does not, in fact, agree that these are two different villages. He believes that he is, and was All Along, Right about What's Best for Goblins.

If he did recognize that he might be wrong about what's best for goblindom, they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

Exactly. That's how he rationalizes his plan likely causing the death of every single goblinoid in existence as "best for goblins" If they destroy the world, the Dark One will get a say in creating the next world. He hasn't realized that that doesn't mean much. The Dark One will have to live with the other gods choices just like they will have to live with his.

[arimareiji]

Glad to finally see where Oona stands. She's been something of an unknown follower, but now we can see she's

A) Completely on the side of Goblins Now over Goblins Theoretical,
B) Completely aware that Redcloak will choose Goblins Theoretical for personal reasons if ever forced,
C) Dedicated to making sure his plan works now so he isnt ever forced to make that choice,
D) Already used to having to beat her villagers over the head with the concept of metaphors :smallbiggrin:

My Freudian eyeballs strike again: The interests of "Goblins Now" are indeed in opposition to those of "Goblins Theocratical". (^_~)

[Fyraltari]

My Freudian eyeballs strike again: The interests of "Goblins Now" are indeed in opposition to those of "Goblins Theocratical". (^_~)

Goobotopia's a theocracy when you think about it.

[runeghost]

Right, but only under duress and in a way that relied upon him first realizing that he was acting like Xykon. I don't think it's impossible for Redcloak to make the right decision, but it's going to take a really heavy blow to his ego... like finding out that Xykon has figured out his "plan" ages ago and was paying closer attention than Redcloak thought at the time.


I've got a little speculation on what could do that...
It would take Redcloak discovering that the Dark One doesn't care a bit for the Goblin races, except insofar as they're useful to him. That could be through Redcloak witnessing the Dark One refusing to save the world (and the goblins on it) for his own personal reasons.

There's always been a tickling suspicion in my head that the Dark One, or at least his motives, aren't what everyone thinks they are. (I searched the forum, but didn't find anything - forgive me if people have already been down this road and I missed it.) I find it very suspicious that his colors are so close to the colors of the Snarl, and that his sole focus appears to be getting a gate/rift to where the Snarl can attack the Gods. And we basically never see him "on screen" as a deity. The closest we've gotten is Thor narrating a flashback to where it appears Thor was face-to-face with him.

Even if he really is a goblin deity, there are no guarantees that he has any real interest in the goblins, other than what he needs from them. Perhaps he will indulge himself in an self-focused rant that pushes Redcloak into seeing what his god truly is... while Redcloak still possesses a connection to his power.

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, a comic tells a story in a different way than a game does, and that's probably for the better because these would not really slide easily at most tables.Well yeah....A traditional heroic high-fantasy story features characters triumphing against overwhelming odds, at a table overwhelming odds means the characters are overwhelmed and almost certainly won't triumph. They rely on different sorts of empathy with the characters, which have different criteria for what situations manifest them most effectively.

[Ionathus]

Well losing your family, inadvertently slaughtering thousands, and being straight up taken out of the game are prettybig costs honestly.


She didn't inadvertently slaughter thousands, she willingly and deliberately slaughtered thousands. (I mean she may have gotten a few more than she thought, but she knew the chance was there. And she lost her family, not from the demon contract, but because of her words and deeds afterward, what with the prioritizing vengeance on the ABD over any non-life-threatening injuries, and the holding of the dark power over Inky.

MunchKING said it better than I could've: everything that happened to V was V's fault, end of sentence. Sure the IFCC lied by omission about being taken out of 3 short lengths of time, but who enters a soul-leasing deal with fiends expecting to not be screwed over? V knew the risk: they just didn't care, because the power was too important. And what about V's family? V's Familicide? The narrative is quite explicitly clear that those consequences rest solely upon V's brow. They made a deal with fiends for power even though there was another option, they killed thousands of black dragon relatives even though they knew dragons interbreed with humans, and they kept the power because they wanted it more than they wanted their family.

Had I seen the entire arc play out in an actual-play podcast, I would nod and go "yeah, makes sense." What's more, I would be blown away by the player's commitment to their character's flawed decision-making, and the DM's ability to lay groundwork for extreme actions to have extreme consequences. V committed genocide without a second thought, and you're claiming the consequences of that action would feel like a "gotcha" at a table, because V couldn't have known that possibility even though V didn't even pause to consider what innocents they might be killing. Calling it the act of a capricious DM is excusing V's lust for power and ego. And what's more, it's missing the entire point of V's DStP arc.


Let's see, the imp who managed to pull an advanced pit fiend from thin air is a pretty good place to start.
Low hanging fruit given that V lampshades this in-comic, but I'll bite. As others have stated, the advanced pit fiend did little more than slow down and distract the heroes while making for an entertaining fight. A bunch of ninjas could probably have done the same.


What about Celia taking Roy's corpse to a golem-maker - and one that specialized in flesh golem of all things, so everything Haley, Celia, and Belkar could have done wouldn't have done much?


What about the thieves' guild having an NPC who literally had a build to counter Haley, and another who was at least 18th-level while Belkar was out of commission and Celia unwilling to properly contribute to the fight?

I'm not sure why you consider the entire guild of murdering outlaws that Haley left on bad terms to be a contrivance. Haley told Celia very clearly not to go to Greysky, and because Haley & Celia's dynamic was well-documented as combative and strained (because Haley was not a strong leader, again, character stuff), Celia ignored her. They were put in a bad situation due to Celia's stubbornness and Haley's inability to 1. open up and explain the risks and 2. understand leadership well enough to instill trust in her companions. This is all extremely in-character for both of them. I don't see the contrivance.

I will grant you that Celia's repeated misunderstandings throughout her Grubwiggler meeting strain credibility. It's not my favorite kind of humor, but it makes sense from a comedy and storytelling standpoint and it gave an excuse to draw some cool Frankenstein-style monsters. However, it's not like she wasn't in trouble the second she walked into Greysky City. She could've just as easily been mugged on the street by Grubwiggler or one of his minions, or had to abandon the cart for some reason. It's not like the Grubwiggler thing was some sudden shift or "gotcha" - it was a logical conclusion to a very bad decision.


What about Celia basically making a deal that involved Haley handing over all of her WBL?

Putting aside that Celia's whole schtick is "mortal lives are more important than treasure"...What problem does this actually introduce? As far as I can tell, Haley doesn't even lose any money - she skips town before paying up (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html).


What about the ancient black dragon with class levels and a counter build who effectively forced V to either lose a level or take a fiend pact?

Your complaint is that V killed a black dragon and the dragon's family (which was already implied to exist by dialogue at the time (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html)) eventually came calling? I don't find it unbelievable that a black dragon would seek vengeance for this. They're a long-lived and extremely powerful species known for holding centuries-long grudges. Even then, the ABD specifically calls out that she was much, much less likely to attack unless V separated themselves from the rest of the group. V was told not to do this by the rest of the group. V's ego led them to take this risk.

You claim these events are contrivances but I don't see it. I see entirely believable consequences that follow directly from the main characters' actions and mistakes.


Glad to finally see where Oona stands. She's been something of an unknown follower, but now we can see she's

A) Completely on the side of Goblins Now over Goblins Theoretical,
B) Completely aware that Redcloak will choose Goblins Theoretical for personal reasons if ever forced,
C) Dedicated to making sure his plan works now so he isnt ever forced to make that choice,
D) Already used to having to beat her villagers over the head with the concept of metaphors :smallbiggrin:

I love this dynamic. Particularly that Oona outright states "yeah you'll throw us all in the garbage without a second's hesitation" but still chooses to work with him, cheerfully even!

Oona is fantastic and I want her to feature in more strips! Haha this one was great - the insistence on the bridge being a metaphor really tickled me :smallbiggrin:


My Freudian eyeballs strike again: The interests of "Goblins Now" are indeed in opposition to those of "Goblins Theocratical". (^_~)

Hmm, if you're implying that this mistake was a Freudian slip, then it implies you're basically constantly thinking about goblin theocracy. Which is totally reasonable, tbh.

[bunsen_h]

My Freudian eyeballs strike again: The interests of "Goblins Now" are indeed in opposition to those of "Goblins Theocratical". (^_~)

He is the very model of a goblin theocratical.

[Dame_Mechanus]

He is the very model of a goblin theocratical.

He has allies martial, psionic, and most puissantly magical,
He demonstrates command of subjects doctrinal and national,
As well as divine mastery of magic most demonstrable.

He's also very versed in the matters of theology
And once-forbidden knowledge that was hidden rather thoroughly;
He seeks a form of power for his people quite congruously
Though once his brother rather advocated for apostasy.

His actions of great notice are most often diplomatical,
He is the very model of a goblin theocratical!

[Fyraltari]

He has allies martial, psionic, and most puissantly magical,
He demonstrates command of subjects doctrinal and national,
As well as divine mastery of magic most demonstrable.

He's also very versed in the matters of theology
And once-forbidden knowledge that was hidden rather thoroughly;
He seeks a form of power for his people quite congruously
Though once his brother rather advocated for apostasy.

His actions of great notice are most often diplomatical,
He is the very model of a goblin theocratical!

I. Love. This.

[Larsaan]

What about the ancient black dragon with class levels and a counter build who effectively forced V to either lose a level or take a fiend pact?

Your mileage may vary on whether her showing up in the first place counts as an asspull, but it's not at all uncommon for older dragons to be mid-to-high level spellcasters. And she didn't really have a "counter build" so much as one specific spell (anti-magic field), which she may well have gone out of her way to obtain after learning that her target was a wizard.

I do agree with you regarding Celia, though. While I personally find it interesting whenever true pacifists show up in fiction, almost everything she did in that book felt super jarring compared to her previous appearances, to the point that she might as well have been a different character. A reboot version of Celia, if you will.

[Provengreil]

Your mileage may vary on whether her showing up in the first place counts as an asspull, but it's not at all uncommon for older dragons to be mid-to-high level spellcasters. And she didn't really have a "counter build" so much as one specific spell (anti-magic field), which she may well have gone out of her way to obtain after learning that her target was a wizard.


It's not even all that unusual of a trick, actually. If for any reason a caster finds himself beefier than average and capable of casting such a spell, it becomes a pretty strong trump card against all but the most prepared of solo casters and worth knowing. See also, most gish builds that reach a high caster level.

[Peelee]

Yeah, a comic tells a story in a different way than a game does, and that's probably for the better because these would not really slide easily at most tables.

But you still insist on comparing it to aDM railroading players. You constantly say you know it's not a game but then talk about it as if it's a game. You say it's like a DM railroading players, you say it wouldn't fly at most tables, you keep making game references. I really think that you still see it in game terms, because of that. Most stories would make poor games. And that doesn't matter because they're not games. This isn't a game. Constantly putting things in the frame of it being a game (eg "this wouldn't fly at most tables, the DM is doing an asspull") is going to make things seem frustrating because it's not a game and shouldn't be seen in the framing of a game.

Also, what you call "asspulls" every other story calls "obstacles for the protagonists to overcome". They're no more "ass pulls" than, for example, the Death Star blowing up Alderaan and ruining the mission Luke and Obi-Wan were on. It's just how the story plays out.

[danielxcutter]

MunchKING said it better than I could've: everything that happened to V was V's fault, end of sentence. Sure the IFCC lied by omission about being taken out of 3 short lengths of time, but who enters a soul-leasing deal with fiends expecting to not be screwed over? V knew the risk: they just didn't care, because the power was too important. And what about V's family? V's Familicide? The narrative is quite explicitly clear that those consequences rest solely upon V's brow. They made a deal with fiends for power even though there was another option, they killed thousands of black dragon relatives even though they knew dragons interbreed with humans, and they kept the power because they wanted it more than they wanted their family.

Had I seen the entire arc play out in an actual-play podcast, I would nod and go "yeah, makes sense." What's more, I would be blown away by the player's commitment to their character's flawed decision-making, and the DM's ability to lay groundwork for extreme actions to have extreme consequences. V committed genocide without a second thought, and you're claiming the consequences of that action would feel like a "gotcha" at a table, because V couldn't have known that possibility even though V didn't even pause to consider what innocents they might be killing. Calling it the act of a capricious DM is excusing V's lust for power and ego. And what's more, it's missing the entire point of V's DStP arc.

As a story in a comic, it is a perfectly executed arc.

It is not something I think would be wise to drop on your players without at least putting in much thought though. I have heard way too many DM(and admittedly player) horror stories to not be skeptical about the difficulty of execution at minimum.


Low hanging fruit given that V lampshades this in-comic, but I'll bite. As others have stated, the advanced pit fiend did little more than slow down and distract the heroes while making for an entertaining fight. A bunch of ninjas could probably have done the same.

Something that wasn’t as ridiculous might have worked better honestly, that thing was probably higher CR than anything the Order faced besides the ABD and Xykon himself.



I'm not sure why you consider the entire guild of murdering outlaws that Haley left on bad terms to be a contrivance. Haley told Celia very clearly not to go to Greysky, and because Haley & Celia's dynamic was well-documented as combative and strained (because Haley was not a strong leader, again, character stuff), Celia ignored her. They were put in a bad situation due to Celia's stubbornness and Haley's inability to 1. open up and explain the risks and 2. understand leadership well enough to instill trust in her companions. This is all extremely in-character for both of them. I don't see the contrivance.

The guild itself is fine; she had no trouble mowing down most of them. It’s mostly just Bozzok and Crystal… and also to a minor extent, Pete selling them out.

Mostly just those two jackasses tbh.


I will grant you that Celia's repeated misunderstandings throughout her Grubwiggler meeting strain credibility. It's not my favorite kind of humor, but it makes sense from a comedy and storytelling standpoint and it gave an excuse to draw some cool Frankenstein-style monsters. However, it's not like she wasn't in trouble the second she walked into Greysky City. She could've just as easily been mugged on the street by Grubwiggler or one of his minions, or had to abandon the cart for some reason. It's not like the Grubwiggler thing was some sudden shift or "gotcha" - it was a logical conclusion to a very bad decision.

Yeah but flesh golems are pretty much immune to everything Haley, Belkar, and Celia could do; the first two would barely scratch them and Celia’s spells would be less than useless.


Putting aside that Celia's whole schtick is "mortal lives are more important than treasure"...What problem does this actually introduce? As far as I can tell, Haley doesn't even lose any money - she skips town before paying up (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html).

Only because she figured out a way to give them the slip.


Your complaint is that V killed a black dragon and the dragon's family (which was already implied to exist by dialogue at the time (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html)) eventually came calling? I don't find it unbelievable that a black dragon would seek vengeance for this. They're a long-lived and extremely powerful species known for holding centuries-long grudges. Even then, the ABD specifically calls out that she was much, much less likely to attack unless V separated themselves from the rest of the group. V was told not to do this by the rest of the group. V's ego led them to take this risk.

You claim these events are contrivances but I don't see it. I see entirely believable consequences that follow directly from the main characters' actions and mistakes.

The ABD herself not necessarily, but the alternate plan the IFCC gave V would still involve them losing a level. Which y’know, is still kinda BS - lose your family, lose a level, or take a fiend pact and get bitten in the hind by it.


Hmm, if you're implying that this mistake was a Freudian slip, then it implies you're basically constantly thinking about goblin theocracy. Which is totally reasonable, tbh.

I mean one was a fairly major area for like two books so…

[Dame_Mechanus]

Also, what you call "asspulls" every other story calls "obstacles for the protagonists to overcome". They're no more "ass pulls" than, for example, the Death Star blowing up Alderaan and ruining the mission Luke and Obi-Wan were on. It's just how the story plays out.

Not even just obstacles, but literally the points of the story. Like, what if there hadn't been an ancient black dragon trying to get revenge on Vaarsuvius? Then we wouldn't have huge chunks of the plot happening as a result, there would be no reason for Xykon to stay in Azure City and then Gobbotopia as long as he did, O-Chul wouldn't still be a character, and so forth. These aren't contrivances that happened because of an author desperately trying to come up with something to happen this week; these are elements that are frequently set up far in advance and result in the story we're enjoying in the first place.

Heck, it works in both directions. Why would V have a scroll of Passwall on them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1248.html)? That seems like a convenient contrivance... until you remember that V was reminded that sometimes you need spells you didn't happen to prepare on a given day. That specific spell, even (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html).

[Provengreil]

Not even just obstacles, but literally the points of the story. Like, what if there hadn't been an ancient black dragon trying to get revenge on Vaarsuvius? Then we wouldn't have huge chunks of the plot happening as a result, there would be no reason for Xykon to stay in Azure City and then Gobbotopia as long as he did, O-Chul wouldn't still be a character, and so forth. These aren't contrivances that happened because of an author desperately trying to come up with something to happen this week; these are elements that are frequently set up far in advance and result in the story we're enjoying in the first place.

Heck, it works in both directions. Why would V have a scroll of Passwall on them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1248.html)? That seems like a convenient contrivance... until you remember that V was reminded that sometimes you need spells you didn't happen to prepare on a given day. That specific spell, even (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html).

You say that.... (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0857.html)

[KorvinStarmast]

But you still insist on comparing it to a DM railroading players. So did the author (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html). :smallwink:

[Shining Wrath]

He has allies martial, psionic, and most puissantly magical,
He demonstrates command of subjects doctrinal and national,
As well as divine mastery of magic most demonstrable.

He's also very versed in the matters of theology
And once-forbidden knowledge that was hidden rather thoroughly;
He seeks a form of power for his people quite congruously
Though once his brother rather advocated for apostasy.

His actions of great notice are most often diplomatical,
He is the very model of a goblin theocratical!

Oh, well done.

[Dame_Mechanus]

So did the author (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html). :smallwink:

Wait, Roy is the author of Order of the Stick? Gods, what an egomaniac, but I guess that explains why in this version of the story Roy gets a totally hot air elemental girlfriend who's super into him and a magical ancestral sword. :smallwink:

(Actually Belkar's version of the story would be kind of hilarious because it would just be a whole lot of things in which people are talking and he's not paying attention interspersed with violence.)

[Ruck]

You say that.... (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0857.html)

Yes, and it was "flatly ludicrous to have prepared one," hence why V didn't bother the next time but did have a scroll.


So did the author (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html). :smallwink:


Wait, Roy is the author of Order of the Stick?

Indeed, let's see what the author has to say:


But as I've said before, "Ceci n'est pas une partie de Donjons et Dragons."


He has allies martial, psionic, and most puissantly magical,
He demonstrates command of subjects doctrinal and national,
As well as divine mastery of magic most demonstrable.

He's also very versed in the matters of theology
And once-forbidden knowledge that was hidden rather thoroughly;
He seeks a form of power for his people quite congruously
Though once his brother rather advocated for apostasy.

His actions of great notice are most often diplomatical,
He is the very model of a goblin theocratical!

https://i.imgur.com/gjzM4ki.gif

[Riftwolf]

I like that, after Oonas sniper-accurate critique, Redcloak tries to make a "Also, you're wrong" comment only to get put back in his place.
And I'm pretty sure Redcloak hasn't even realised the bridge has long been dolphin'd, and he's been repainting "Best for Goblins" over the "I'm right" village signposts for years.