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View Full Version : Optimization Is there any way for a Druid/Rogue multiclass to synergise wild shape with rogue CFs?



BisectedBrioche
2022-07-18, 08:16 AM
I've got an idea for a Druid/Rogue who mostly uses Wild Shape to turn into small creatures for spying purposes, but aside from that, I can't think of many ways it can work with Rogue class skills.

The best idea I've been given so far (from another player) is to go for a subclass that lets you expend uses of Wildshape on something else (or for forms that keep you humanoid). My own idea was to go with Circle of the Moon, so I could quickly turn back to take advantage of Sneak Attack, but that would wind up burning through my uses of WS pretty quickly.

Any advice?

Kvess
2022-07-18, 10:02 AM
I think the biggest obstacle to wildshape rogue multiclass is sneak attack requires a range or finesse weapon, and none of the wildshape forms provide compatible weapon attacks. Unlike Monk or Barbarian multiclassing, rogue doesn’t seem to have much synergy.

That said, the rules don’t specifically say that you can’t wildshape into a bunny holding a stiletto in its mouth.

Nefariis
2022-07-18, 10:16 AM
I've got an idea for a Druid/Rogue who mostly uses Wild Shape to turn into small creatures for spying purposes, but aside from that, I can't think of many ways it can work with Rogue class skills.

The best idea I've been given so far (from another player) is to go for a subclass that lets you expend uses of Wildshape on something else (or for forms that keep you humanoid). My own idea was to go with Circle of the Moon, so I could quickly turn back to take advantage of Sneak Attack, but that would wind up burning through my uses of WS pretty quickly.

Any advice?

Do you view your character concept as more of a druid or as more of a rogue? And what class features from Rogue are most important to you or what benefits are you looking to gain from rogue?

nickl_2000
2022-07-18, 10:18 AM
I think the biggest obstacle to wildshape rogue multiclass is sneak attack requires a range or finesse weapon, and none of the wildshape forms provide compatible weapon attacks. Unlike Monk or Barbarian multiclassing, rogue doesn’t seem to have much synergy.

That said, the rules don’t specifically say that you can’t wildshape into a bunny holding a stiletto in its mouth.

1/2 CR ape that has a rock throw. That's a ranged weapon attack, so it works.
1 CR has Giant Spider, Spider King, and Ice Spider with the web attack, also ranged
2 CR has Ice Spider Queen, ranged Web attack

Not great options, especially with the web recharge but it is something.



As for Wildshaping, it only takes a bonus action to get out of it. You infiltrate as a rat, spider, or bird that no one suspects and shift out and surprise them. Pass without a Trace is amazing on a Rogue as well.

BisectedBrioche
2022-07-18, 10:22 AM
I think the biggest obstacle to wildshape rogue multiclass is sneak attack requires a range or finesse weapon, and none of the wildshape forms provide compatible weapon attacks. Unlike Monk or Barbarian multiclassing, rogue doesn’t seem to have much synergy.

That said, the rules don’t specifically say that you can’t wildshape into a bunny holding a stiletto in its mouth.

The rules don't say it, but that doesn't mean the DM will allow it (although he's not averse to throwing the right magic item my way).


Do you view your character concept as more of a druid or as more of a rogue? And what class features from Rogue are most important to you or what benefits are you looking to gain from rogue?

I'd say I'm more comfortable playing rogues, but the character's backstory and concept is very much Druid.

I guess I'm basically trying to build a stealth heavy Druid.


1/2 CR ape that has a rock throw. That's a ranged weapon attack, so it works.
1 CR has Giant Spider, Spider King, and Ice Spider with the web attack, also ranged
2 CR has Ice Spider Queen, ranged Web attack

Not great options, especially with the web recharge but it is something.



As for Wildshaping, it only takes a bonus action to get out of it. You infiltrate as a rat, spider, or bird that no one suspects and shift out and surprise them. Pass without a Trace is amazing on a Rogue as well.

Ooo, that's good. If I take Circle of Moon, I could make use of those right away. =3

nickl_2000
2022-07-18, 10:25 AM
I guess I'm basically trying to build a stealth heavy Druid.

With the Skill Expert Feat that is much easier than it used to be. With that alone you can get Stealth prof and expertise and a +1 to a stat and if you are VHuman or that custom race you can get it at level 1.

Keravath
2022-07-18, 10:30 AM
The rules don't say it, but that doesn't mean the DM will allow it (although he's not averse to throwing the right magic item my way).



I'd say I'm more comfortable playing rogues, but the character's backstory and concept is very much Druid.

I guess I'm basically trying to build a stealth heavy Druid.

Class features carry over into wild shapes. Often wild shaped druids don't have many options for a bonus action so the level 2 rogue feature cunning action could be useful in wild shape allowing you to hide/dash or disengage as a bonus action.

How you build it really depends on what you want out of it.

A rogue could use two levels of moon druid to get access to a wider variety of wild shapes for infiltration and scouting though most of the time you probably use CR0 small and innocuous creatures for that purpose so any druid works fine for scouting purposes.

Three levels of druid gives decent spell support and pass without trace which is a great spell for a rogue.

Using sneak attack while wild shaped is more difficult since wild shapes don't usually come equipped with finesse weapons and few have a ranged attack.

If all you want is a stealth heavy druid then one or two levels of rogue is probably all you need for expertise in stealth and maybe cunning action so you can hide as a bonus action.

Psyren
2022-07-18, 10:43 AM
It sounds like you want to be primarily a rogue, just with the ability to turn into an animal several times per day to aid your sneaking around - is that right? If so, there's no need for moon druid I'd say - you'll primarily be using your wild shape out of combat, so any of them will do.

One druid weapon that has some synergy with rogue is the sling, as it works with both Sneak Attack and Magic Stone. However, Magic Stone itself is not great as it uses up your bonus action every three shots, and "increases" your damage all the way to the dizzying heights of a shortbow (albeit a magic one).

BisectedBrioche
2022-07-18, 10:52 AM
It sounds like you want to be primarily a rogue, just with the ability to turn into an animal several times per day to aid your sneaking around - is that right? If so, there's no need for moon druid I'd say - you'll primarily be using your wild shape out of combat, so any of them will do.

One druid weapon that has some synergy with rogue is the sling, as it works with both Sneak Attack and Magic Stone. However, Magic Stone itself is not great as it uses up your bonus action every three shots, and "increases" your damage all the way to the dizzying heights of a shortbow (albeit a magic one).

Ooo, that's helpful to know! =3

Psyren
2022-07-18, 11:21 AM
Oh, one more thing I missed earlier:


My own idea was to go with Circle of the Moon, so I could quickly turn back to take advantage of Sneak Attack, but that would wind up burning through my uses of WS pretty quickly.

FYI Ending Wild Shape is a bonus action by default, you don't need to be a moon druid to "quickly change back." You can also turn back without an action at all if you eat more damage than your form has HP, e.g. by provoking an AoO while you get into position.


If the idea of a Magic Stone Rogue is appealing to you, I'd consider Druid of the Land. This gets you a free cantrip you can spend on it, leaving your other two free for e.g. Guidance + one more of your choice (Druidcraft could be nice if your DM is permissive, but at the very least you can use it to snuff out torches from a distance to help you sneak around.) Land Druids also don't compete for your bonus action with their features. In addition, if you go Arcane Trickster you'll get Magecraft and two more cantrips, plus bonus spell slots from your druid levels.

For example, an Arcane Trickster 6 will know 3 wizard cantrips and 4 1st-level wizard spells (enchantment and illusion only) and have 3 1st-level spell slots, along with Uncanny Dodge and Expertise.
However, a Land Druid 2/Arcane Trickster 4 instead will have 6 cantrips (3 druid 3 wizard), every 1st-level druid spell + 4 1st-level wizard spells (ench/illus), 4 1st-level spell slots and 2 2nd-level ones, and the ability to change into a small creature for an hour 2x per short rest.

Nefariis
2022-07-18, 11:56 AM
I would consider forgoing Rogue all together.

As someone said previously, you can get most of the benefits of Rogue by just taking the skilled feat at level 1 for expertise stealth. Taking two levels of Rogue does get you Cunning Action, but now you've delayed two levels of full caster.

Druids are incredibly fun to play because they are great in just about every situation - delaying full levels in caster is usually never recommended - and I certainly wouldn't delay two levels in caster for an extra 1d6 in sneak attack damage.

It sounds like you are planning on primarily using CR 0 and 1/4 creatures which would not necessitate Moon Druid - I would checkout Dreams (which gets a better cunning action at 10), Stars (gets extra damage similar to sneak attack), and Shepard druid (why play as wolf, when you can summon 8 of them).

Psyren
2022-07-18, 12:04 PM
It all depends on what the OP is after.

If the goal is to be a sneaky druid, I agree, skip rogue - it adds very little to the table that you can't get elsewhere.

If the goal is to be a rogue with a shapeshifting trick, then a 2-level druid dip is fine, and both the druid and rogue subclasses will depend on what the OP wants to focus on.

Kvess
2022-07-18, 12:33 PM
1/2 CR ape that has a rock throw. That's a ranged weapon attack, so it works.

Unfortunately weapons with the thrown property (which use strength) are not considered ranged weapons (which use dexterity).

Edit: Though it does say Ranged Weapon Attack on the stat block. Huh.

nickl_2000
2022-07-18, 12:43 PM
Unfortunately weapons with the thrown property (which use strength) are not considered ranged weapons (which use dexterity).

Edit: Though it does say Ranged Weapon Attack on the stat block. Huh.

Ya, NPC stat blocks are weird.

Dame_Mechanus
2022-07-18, 12:49 PM
The rules don't say it, but that doesn't mean the DM will allow it (although he's not averse to throwing the right magic item my way).

My thought, from a DM perspective, would be more about what you're trying to do and what your focus is. If your goal is to build a Druid taking on small and stealthy forms without necessarily using those animal forms for combat, I'd probably be willing to nudge some smaller animal types where it makes sense to have attacks considered finesse for purposes of a sneak attack. Sure, technically a small cat or a weasel wouldn't be statted properly that way, but you are not going to turn into Deathbringer the Kitty if I let you sneak attack with your paws.

On the other hand, if you're going for a Rogue dip more to be a very sneaky druid, then it might make more sense to make adjustments to your spell list and offer you a few items to suit the needs. It'd be an odd build, but quite frankly "shapeshifting to a stealthy animal" is such a cool concept for a Druid that I'd want to work with you to make it functional.

GooeyChewie
2022-07-18, 01:20 PM
Unfortunately weapons with the thrown property (which use strength) are not considered ranged weapons (which use dexterity).

Edit: Though it does say Ranged Weapon Attack on the stat block. Huh.

It's a (ranged) (weapon attack), not a (ranged weapon) (attack). While that distinction seems incredibly pedantic, it unfortunately does affect whether or not a particular attack works with Sneak Attack. The rock is similar to a Hand Axe, in that throwing it causes a "ranged weapon attack" but not an attack with a "ranged weapon." (Standard disclaimer: Check with your DM. They may be willing to blur the line between a "ranged weapon attack" and "an attack with a ranged weapon," especially if it fits an interesting concept like this one.)

Rukelnikov
2022-07-18, 01:58 PM
Unfortunately weapons with the thrown property (which use strength) are not considered ranged weapons (which use dexterity).

Most are not, darts though are rained weapons with the thrown property.

BisectedBrioche
2022-07-18, 05:01 PM
Oh, one more thing I missed earlier:



FYI Ending Wild Shape is a bonus action by default, you don't need to be a moon druid to "quickly change back." You can also turn back without an action at all if you eat more damage than your form has HP, e.g. by provoking an AoO while you get into position.


If the idea of a Magic Stone Rogue is appealing to you, I'd consider Druid of the Land. This gets you a free cantrip you can spend on it, leaving your other two free for e.g. Guidance + one more of your choice (Druidcraft could be nice if your DM is permissive, but at the very least you can use it to snuff out torches from a distance to help you sneak around.) Land Druids also don't compete for your bonus action with their features. In addition, if you go Arcane Trickster you'll get Magecraft and two more cantrips, plus bonus spell slots from your druid levels.

For example, an Arcane Trickster 6 will know 3 wizard cantrips and 4 1st-level wizard spells (enchantment and illusion only) and have 3 1st-level spell slots, along with Uncanny Dodge and Expertise.
However, a Land Druid 2/Arcane Trickster 4 instead will have 6 cantrips (3 druid 3 wizard), every 1st-level druid spell + 4 1st-level wizard spells (ench/illus), 4 1st-level spell slots and 2 2nd-level ones, and the ability to change into a small creature for an hour 2x per short rest.

This is all super useful! I plan on playing a Tiefling, so that's going to be even more cantrips on top of that. =3


I would consider forgoing Rogue all together.

As someone said previously, you can get most of the benefits of Rogue by just taking the skilled feat at level 1 for expertise stealth. Taking two levels of Rogue does get you Cunning Action, but now you've delayed two levels of full caster.

Druids are incredibly fun to play because they are great in just about every situation - delaying full levels in caster is usually never recommended - and I certainly wouldn't delay two levels in caster for an extra 1d6 in sneak attack damage.

It sounds like you are planning on primarily using CR 0 and 1/4 creatures which would not necessitate Moon Druid - I would checkout Dreams (which gets a better cunning action at 10), Stars (gets extra damage similar to sneak attack), and Shepard druid (why play as wolf, when you can summon 8 of them).


It all depends on what the OP is after.

If the goal is to be a sneaky druid, I agree, skip rogue - it adds very little to the table that you can't get elsewhere.

If the goal is to be a rogue with a shapeshifting trick, then a 2-level druid dip is fine, and both the druid and rogue subclasses will depend on what the OP wants to focus on.

Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of someone who started as a druid

Plus I'm only going to be able to take a level 1 feat if I play a variant human, and I'm just too much of a tiefling gal to roll anything else.


Unfortunately weapons with the thrown property (which use strength) are not considered ranged weapons (which use dexterity).

Edit: Though it does say Ranged Weapon Attack on the stat block. Huh.


Ya, NPC stat blocks are weird.


My thought, from a DM perspective, would be more about what you're trying to do and what your focus is. If your goal is to build a Druid taking on small and stealthy forms without necessarily using those animal forms for combat, I'd probably be willing to nudge some smaller animal types where it makes sense to have attacks considered finesse for purposes of a sneak attack. Sure, technically a small cat or a weasel wouldn't be statted properly that way, but you are not going to turn into Deathbringer the Kitty if I let you sneak attack with your paws.

On the other hand, if you're going for a Rogue dip more to be a very sneaky druid, then it might make more sense to make adjustments to your spell list and offer you a few items to suit the needs. It'd be an odd build, but quite frankly "shapeshifting to a stealthy animal" is such a cool concept for a Druid that I'd want to work with you to make it functional.


It's a (ranged) (weapon attack), not a (ranged weapon) (attack). While that distinction seems incredibly pedantic, it unfortunately does affect whether or not a particular attack works with Sneak Attack. The rock is similar to a Hand Axe, in that throwing it causes a "ranged weapon attack" but not an attack with a "ranged weapon." (Standard disclaimer: Check with your DM. They may be willing to blur the line between a "ranged weapon attack" and "an attack with a ranged weapon," especially if it fits an interesting concept like this one.)


Most are not, darts though are rained weapons with the thrown property.

My DM's concluded that the ape's rock throw doesn't count, but (despite all logic) the giant spider's web attack does (because it's a ranged weapon attack in the statblock).

Fun nature fact: IRL apes have terrible rockthrowing abilities compared to humans.

Sorinth
2022-07-18, 06:08 PM
If you are going mostly Druid with a Rogue dip then there is some synergy with the multiclass as hiding at the end of every round is a great way to maintain concentration which are the bread and butter of druid spells. Otherwise if you are mostly going rogue then you've essentially traded some SA damage for utility which isn't bad idea. Either way if you take expertise in Athletics and WS into something with a high strength score you can be a solid grappler which combined with a climb/fly speed has potential.

Spore druid might be an interesting option.

BisectedBrioche
2022-07-18, 06:17 PM
If you are going mostly Druid with a Rogue dip then there is some synergy with the multiclass as hiding at the end of every round is a great way to maintain concentration which are the bread and butter of druid spells. Otherwise if you are mostly going rogue then you've essentially traded some SA damage for utility which isn't bad idea. Either way if you take expertise in Athletics and WS into something with a high strength score you can be a solid grappler which combined with a climb/fly speed has potential.

Spore druid might be an interesting option.

That's definitely an option; I've been playing a rogue with Athletics expertise and slippers of spider climb (her thing was being raised by aaracokra), and there's a lot of utility.

RN I'm thinking my best option is to start with two levels of Druid, and then go rogue for all my levels afterwards, and just stick with Wild Shape as a nice ability.

Dame_Mechanus
2022-07-18, 06:29 PM
That's definitely an option; I've been playing a rogue with Athletics expertise and slippers of spider climb (her thing was being raised by aaracokra), and there's a lot of utility.

RN I'm thinking my best option is to start with two levels of Druid, and then go rogue for all my levels afterwards, and just stick with Wild Shape as a nice ability.

All beware the knifespider! She slinks in the night and has a switchblade +1 on each leg! But none on her pedipalps; that'd be rude.

Ogun
2022-07-18, 06:41 PM
Three levels of druid seems so worth it.
I'm looking for a local game to play a goblin spore druid in , and that skill feat would be very handy.
The funny thing about the spores, they are not an attack, so using them won't reveal you are there.
Also, rather than using the spider, how about arming the monkey with rogue weaponry?
A little monkey dropping on you and stabbing with its daggers?
Priceless.

Rukelnikov
2022-07-18, 09:01 PM
I'm not completely sure what you expect from the character yet.

Do you wanna be mostly someone that acts like a rogue but with a few druidic magics? Or you wanna be a druid that's also a bit stealthy? I'm still not sure what you want the character to be able to do

JackPhoenix
2022-07-18, 09:07 PM
1/2 CR ape that has a rock throw. That's a ranged weapon attack, so it works.
1 CR has Giant Spider, Spider King, and Ice Spider with the web attack, also ranged
2 CR has Ice Spider Queen, ranged Web attack

Not great options, especially with the web recharge but it is something.

Ranged weapon attack =/= ranged weapon.


Most are not, darts though are rained weapons with the thrown property.

Not that the ape's rock has ANY properties, being just monster attack option without a weapon entry anywhere.

Rukelnikov
2022-07-18, 09:31 PM
Not that the ape's rock has ANY properties, being just monster attack option without a weapon entry anywhere.

I know the distinction, that's why I didn't comment in the other thread.

Psyren
2022-07-18, 11:06 PM
I'm not completely sure what you expect from the character yet.

Do you wanna be mostly someone that acts like a rogue but with a few druidic magics? Or you wanna be a druid that's also a bit stealthy? I'm still not sure what you want the character to be able to do

Based on this:



RN I'm thinking my best option is to start with two levels of Druid, and then go rogue for all my levels afterwards, and just stick with Wild Shape as a nice ability.

I think she's leaning toward the former. So a rogue with a nature trick.

renzdog
2022-07-18, 11:16 PM
The wildfire druid can conjure a pet fire spirit by expending a use of wild shape (what tiefling doesn't want one of those)
Its most prominent feature is an unlimited mass short range teleport you can activate with a bonus action.
It is pretty handy for positioning in combat, can help trigger booming blade riders if you are a melee rogue, and has a lot of out of combat utility.

If you are using Tasha's then any druid can expend a use of wild shape to cast the find familiar spell- which is also a pretty handy spell.

I'll also mention that multi-classing druid gives a shield prof, which is very useful for melee rogues.

Nidgit
2022-07-19, 01:14 AM
Honestly, and I'm surprised no one's mentioned this, but you could just ask your DM if there are additional circumstances where you might use Sneak Attack.

I made a Inquisitive Rogue 3/Moon Druid X where the rule was if Insightful Fighting was active I could use Sneak Attack even while Wildshaped. 2d6 extra damage per turn at the cost of a bonus action setup didn't break anything. It was a fair bit of fun- between sky high Perception and Insight and excellent stealth abilities I was absurdly effective as a scout and a strong tank whenever I had enough time to set up.

BisectedBrioche
2022-07-19, 07:34 AM
Three levels of druid seems so worth it.
I'm looking for a local game to play a goblin spore druid in , and that skill feat would be very handy.
The funny thing about the spores, they are not an attack, so using them won't reveal you are there.
Also, rather than using the spider, how about arming the monkey with rogue weaponry?
A little monkey dropping on you and stabbing with its daggers?
Priceless.

What does the third level of Druid get me (two is the bare minimum for a Circle and Wildshape)?


Based on this:



I think she's leaning toward the former. So a rogue with a nature trick.

Yeppers! ^_^


The wildfire druid can conjure a pet fire spirit by expending a use of wild shape (what tiefling doesn't want one of those)
Its most prominent feature is an unlimited mass short range teleport you can activate with a bonus action.
It is pretty handy for positioning in combat, can help trigger booming blade riders if you are a melee rogue, and has a lot of out of combat utility.

If you are using Tasha's then any druid can expend a use of wild shape to cast the find familiar spell- which is also a pretty handy spell.

I'll also mention that multi-classing druid gives a shield prof, which is very useful for melee rogues.

Oh yeah, an NPC in the same campaign was one. It definitely looks like fun.


Honestly, and I'm surprised no one's mentioned this, but you could just ask your DM if there are additional circumstances where you might use Sneak Attack.

I made a Inquisitive Rogue 3/Moon Druid X where the rule was if Insightful Fighting was active I could use Sneak Attack even while Wildshaped. 2d6 extra damage per turn at the cost of a bonus action setup didn't break anything. It was a fair bit of fun- between sky high Perception and Insight and excellent stealth abilities I was absurdly effective as a scout and a strong tank whenever I had enough time to set up.

I'd have to run that by the DM, but I suspect he won't allow it because the RAW only allows IF to bypass the need for flanking/advantage, not a finesse weapon.

Still, Inquisitive fits the "sneaky information gatherer" theme I was going for (I'm thinking the "Garret" route of a Druid who was trained by an order, but decided thievery was more fun).

elyktsorb
2022-07-19, 08:55 AM
Not really.

Druid/Rogue is still amazing because Rogue's love being able to wildshape into small animals, and Pass Without Trace is also amazing.

I did an Assassin Rogue/Moon Druid multiclass, and while it was alright, none of it really worked together. I primarily took Assassin for the fact that I would often be sneaking as an animal anyway, and getting a guaranteed crit on some animal attacks is pretty nice.

Biggest issue? Druid Levels falling behind. Because once you hit the point where you start running into enemies that resist non-magical attacks, your animal attacks really suck until you hit 6th level.

There isn't much of a way to make wildshape work with sneak damage though. Except two things I will mention below.

Other insights I have.

Thief is a surprisingly neat choice as Second Story Work enables your animal forms without a climb speed to still climb things without spending extra movement to do so.


Soul Knife allows you to communicate with party members without resorting to awkward animal gestures or crude drawing.

ALSO, Soul Knife has Psychic Blade, which allows you to manifest a Psychic Blade in a free hand whenever you take the attack action. Most animals don't have hands, but the Ape for example, does have hands. This could apply to any form with hands technically, though many of said forms could feasibly just hold a weapon as well.


Inquisitive I will only mention for slight possible cheese. As it's Insightful Fighting feature allows you to make a "Wisdom (Insight) check against a creature you can see that isn't incapacitated, contested by the target's Charisma (Deception) check. If you succeed, you can use your Sneak Attack against that target even if you don't have advantage on the attack roll, but not if you have disadvantage on it."

Now, I only bring this up for one reason, and that's that this ability doesn't restrict you to having to meet the other requirement's for applying Sneak Attack. As opposed to the Swashbuckler, which gives you a different way to use your Sneak Attack, but the Swashbuckler's Rakish Audacity ability states.. "You also gain an additional way to use your Sneak Attack; you don't need advantage on your attack roll to use Sneak Attack against a creature if you are within 5 feet of it, no other creatures are within 5 feet of you, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll. All the other rules for Sneak Attack still apply to you."

If not for this clause at the end Rakish Audacity's effect, you could be a Swashbuckler Rogue wildshaped into an animal and use Sneak Attack. Since the Inquisitives Insightful Fighting feature does allow you to use Sneak Attack on a creature (provided you win the skill check contest) and doesn't have a clause like Rakish Audacity, using it on a creature should mean you can apply sneak attack even when wild shaped and with non-standard weapons.

Though it may also be that it is read as you simply not needing Advantage to apply Sneak Attack, since it only says that, it doesn't say you can ignore the other rules for applying sneak attack, but if Rakish Audicty had to explicitly state that it's ability does have to follow the other rules regarding Sneak Attack's, but Insightful Fighting doesn't, then doesn't that mean Insightful Fighting's check supersedes the rest of the rules for Sneak Attack?

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Also

What does the third level of Druid get me (two is the bare minimum for a Circle and Wildshape)?

2nd level spells, which includes Pass Without Trace which is really good on a Rogue. Other spells as well depending on what Druid Circle you chose, I know Land and Spores each get spells at 3rd level.

Kvess
2022-07-19, 09:16 AM
It's a (ranged) (weapon attack), not a (ranged weapon) (attack). While that distinction seems incredibly pedantic, it unfortunately does affect whether or not a particular attack works with Sneak Attack. The rock is similar to a Hand Axe, in that throwing it causes a "ranged weapon attack" but not an attack with a "ranged weapon." (Standard disclaimer: Check with your DM. They may be willing to blur the line between a "ranged weapon attack" and "an attack with a ranged weapon," especially if it fits an interesting concept like this one.)
Oh fun, I’ve learned about a new rough edge in D&D 5e’s ruleset.

Sorinth
2022-07-19, 01:43 PM
That's definitely an option; I've been playing a rogue with Athletics expertise and slippers of spider climb (her thing was being raised by aaracokra), and there's a lot of utility.

RN I'm thinking my best option is to start with two levels of Druid, and then go rogue for all my levels afterwards, and just stick with Wild Shape as a nice ability.

You should consider Rogue 1 then Druid 2 then Rogue the rest of the way. I think the save proficiencies would be better for you, and you get an extra skill proficiency.

sambojin
2022-07-21, 07:19 PM
Remember to have a wildshape familiar ride around on you if you're roguing alone. That fulfills the "another enemy within 5' of the target" part of sneak attack, so you don't need advantage if you're not near anyone to get stabby. Double perception rolls are nice too. They can also do the help action for you, so you can get advantage on demand.

There's quite a few beasts with ranged attacks. Ape, Dilophosaurus, Frilled Deathspitter, Giant/Ice Spider /King, at cr1/2-1 for ranged sneak attack. So there's quite a few options for Moon wildshape, and these things love Rogue bonus actions (most forms do).

There's also plenty of stuff that could use a finess weapon if it knew how, and you do. Considering that they're small blades with a handle or large sticks. Velociraptors, etc might be on the table to get stabby or thumpy with.

A Glasya Tiefling seems to be the optimal subrace. Minor Illusion, Disguise Self and Invisibility, which are all things druids don't naturally do, but are very handy to be able to.