Feat/ASI Choices for high level PC - Decision Paralysis

[nickl_2000]

One of the age old questions:

Getting closer to the end of our campaign, just hit level 15 on my 10 AT/5 WW. So, I get another feat/asi. Not sure if we will make it to 17 to get another asi/feat though.

Typical Combat for him is buff the Paladin or control on round 1, then hide and sneak attack for the rest of combat with either GFB/BB/Ranged. If it makes a difference the Paladin just picked up the Sentient Legendary Weapon Macguffin that is designed to take down the BBEG and minions.
Party is: Pyromaniac Wizard, Celestial Warlock, Glory Divine Soul Sorcadin, and my PC.


Stats are 8/20/14/16/10/10
Magic Initiate at level 1, Resilient Con feat, and dex for previous ASI/feats.
Very high magic campaign (have +2 longbow, +2 rapier, +1 human bane heavy crossbow, gloves of thievery, hat of disguise/elven cloak combo ring, bracers of archery, Staff of Swarming Insects, and a few other things). Buying a Headband of Intellect is possible, but expensive. Additionally our party has a Weapon of Warning and a Lantern of Revealing.


Any thoughts on what to do for this ASI? I was looking at Artificer Initiate, Alert, Eldritch Adept (devils sight), Fighting Initiate, Gift of the Chromatic Dragon, Gift of the Metallic Dragon, War Caster, and +2 int.

Other things that are possible: 1 level of fighter wouldn't be horrible for a fighting style and all martial weapons (I already have a +2 longbow and +1 human bane heavy crossbow, both being used through proficiency granted by bracers of archery). This certainly wouldn't be out of the realm of the PCs personality and journey.

[Damon_Tor]

Metamagic Adept so you can twin whatever you're buffing the paladin with might be great. Haste for him and haste for you, or whatever.

[nickl_2000]

Metamagic Adept so you can twin whatever you're buffing the paladin with might be great. Haste for him and haste for you, or whatever.

That's an interesting choice as well. Hmm, an even harder decision

[solidork]

That's an interesting choice as well. Hmm, an even harder decision

Note that with Metamagic Adept, you'd only have two spell points - you could never twin Haste, and could only twin one level 2 spell per day or 2 level 1 spells.

[solidork]

Do you already have darkvision? Are you looking to accentuate a strength or shore up a weakness?

There are so many good options that I think engaging with the fiction of the situation (what makes sense to be able to learn? have recent events been building towards anything? what does your character want?) could help narrow it down.

If you're considering Fighting Initiaite(Archery) then Sharpshooter should probably be on the table. Does your GM often give enemies half cover when you shoot into melee? I'm kind of enchanted with the idea of Skulker, since you've described a pretty stealthy character in your brief sketch.

[Psyren]

One of the age old questions:

Getting closer to the end of our campaign, just hit level 15 on my 10 AT/5 WW. So, I get another feat/asi. Not sure if we will make it to 17 to get another asi/feat though.

Your what? Arcane Trickster 10, what's the other one?

[Gignere]

Your what? Arcane Trickster 10, what's the other one?

War wizard I believe

[da newt]

I don't think FI is worth it when you can take 1 lvl of fighter for that and 2nd wind and a d10 hit die and shield prof (especially if you BB/GFB much).

I'm a BIG fan of alert personally. Going first in combat allows you to dictate rather than react and allows you to decide if you should buff or strike.

Warcaster is never a bad choice, +2 CON is basic but helpful. If you are looking at shoring up your weaknesses, I'd be tempted by RES WIS as it looks like your Achilles heel.

[nickl_2000]

Your what? Arcane Trickster 10, what's the other one?

Sorry, Arcane Trickster 10/ War Wizard 5


War wizard I believe

Yup


Do you already have darkvision? Are you looking to accentuate a strength or shore up a weakness?

There are so many good options that I think engaging with the fiction of the situation (what makes sense to be able to learn? have recent events been building towards anything? what does your character want?) could help narrow it down.

If you're considering Fighting Initiaite(Archery) then Sharpshooter should probably be on the table. Does your GM often give enemies half cover when you shoot into melee? I'm kind of enchanted with the idea of Skulker, since you've described a pretty stealthy character in your brief sketch.

I have the spell for Darkvision. When I need it (often), I use a 2nd level spell to get it all day. Everyone else in the party has darkvision through other means. I also have the ability to buy Goggles of Night, but never got around to it.


For the character, he is a skill monger. He has lots of skills and is really, really effective at rogue skills. He is a rebel, in fact he has adopted the position of BlackJack, who is a Zorro like figure in the city of Korvosa. In the past month or so, he bought and is investing in an orphanage to prevent other children from growing up on the streets like he had to.

In the campaign, we are fighting against the queen of the city who has been corrupted by an evil force. She is somewhat demonic and has a cult following in the guards of the city. As PCs we have saved the city from various other problems and have support from the people. Much of the rest of the campaign will be sowing chaos in the city and helping the people rise up against the evil leaders. Then eventually attacking and killing the guards and the queen.



I don't think FI is worth it when you can take 1 lvl of fighter for that and 2nd wind and a d10 hit die and shield prof (especially if you BB/GFB much).

I'm a BIG fan of alert personally. Going first in combat allows you to dictate rather than react and allows you to decide if you should buff or strike.

Warcaster is never a bad choice, +2 CON is basic but helpful. If you are looking at shoring up your weaknesses, I'd be tempted by RES WIS as it looks like your Achilles heel.

I already do have +8 to init do to high Dex and War Wizard. So, I usually end up going first in rotation. I definitely go before someone I buff. Res Wis would be a good addition, it is a rough spot for this PC, although I'm helped out some by having the Paladin close to me and Arcane Deflection from the War Wizard subclass. Just extra information

[follacchioso]

Artificer Initiate, Alert, Eldritch Adept (devils sight), Fighting Initiate, Gift of the Chromatic Dragon, Gift of the Metallic Dragon, War Caster, and +2 int.
I would avoid the two Gift feats, as your reactions are already full: Uncanny Dodge, Shield, Absorb Elements, and War Wizard. The feats can save you a few spell slots every now and then, but they only apply the bonus to AC / resistance until your next turn.

I would also avoid War Caster as you already have Resilient Con, and fight from range. You don't use Shields, so you don't have to worry about having your hands full.

+2 Int will allow you to prepare one extra spell, and increase your DC. But do you really have many offensive spells? It may not be worth the cost.

[nickl_2000]

I would avoid the two Gift feats, as your reactions are already full: Uncanny Dodge, Shield, Absorb Elements, and War Wizard. The feats can save you a few spell slots every now and then, but they only apply the bonus to AC / resistance until your next turn.

I would also avoid War Caster as you already have Resilient Con, and fight from range. You don't use Shields, so you don't have to worry about having your hands full.

+2 Int will allow you to prepare one extra spell, and increase your DC. But do you really have many offensive spells? It may not be worth the cost.

I have a large variety of spells. For offensive purposes I will often create bonfire for the Warlock to shoot people into and will Mind Sliver to help allies with save or suck spells. I also run Blindness/Deafness, Hold Person, and Tashas regularly. For the most part, it is about disabling someone and getting them out of the fight temporarily. My damage dealer is sneak attacking.

The Gift ones are an interesting point. Getting cure wounds was a net positive to take some strain off of the Warlock and Sorcadin, but you are completely right about reactions. I've already got Absorb Elements, Counterspell, Arcane Deflection, Shield, uncanny dodge, and Feather fall.

[x3n0n]

Res Wis would be a good addition, it is a rough spot for this PC, although I'm helped out some by having the Paladin close to me and Arcane Deflection from the War Wizard subclass.

A note: many DMs rule that Resilient is one feat (that is, not separate Con and Wis feats) and can't be taken twice.

Metamagic Adept does seem like fun if 2 daily uses is enough to satisfy you. Twin(cantrip/1st) lets you double up on things like Mind Sliver or Hideous Laughter, and Subtle is always ripe for shenanigans (and offers counterspell avoidance as well as your own Subtle counterspell).

It sounds like the main pull for Artificer Initiate is cure wounds; do you have a particularly juicy cantrip in mind? (The typical would probably be guidance, but you've gotten this far with your current party.)
If you're looking for a gp-efficient way to stretch your party's HP while reducing the out-of-combat load on the healers (i.e. not a million Potions of Healing), the Healer feat probably does that more efficiently than adding cure wounds to your list with a single free daily casting. (Healer also synergizes with the whole Rogue-with-a-heart-of-gold RP aspect.)

[animorte]

Metamagic Adept does seem like fun if 2 daily uses is enough to satisfy you. Twin(cantrip/1st) lets you double up on things like Mind Sliver or Hideous Laughter, and Subtle is always ripe for shenanigans (and offers counterspell avoidance as well as your own Subtle counterspell).

the Healer feat probably does that more efficiently than adding cure wounds to your list with a single free daily casting. (Healer also synergizes with the whole Rogue-with-a-heart-of-gold RP aspect.)

Metamagic is likely the direction I personally would go, being that it provides additional tricks otherwise difficult to find.

That being said, I would probably recommend Healer feat as it probably accomplishes more throughout the day.

Decision paralysis and I have become close friends over the years. We’re extremely acquainted and it’s a love/hate relationship to be honest. I feel you.

[Gignere]

I would suggest Alert it’s boring but you are pretty stacked in initiative but not enough to nearly always be going first adding another +5 would just about guarantee that you would be going first in every combat. Extra turn is so good.

You’ll also be immune to surprise and invisible creature doesn’t get advantage.

[nickl_2000]

A note: many DMs rule that Resilient is one feat (that is, not separate Con and Wis feats) and can't be taken twice.

Metamagic Adept does seem like fun if 2 daily uses is enough to satisfy you. Twin(cantrip/1st) lets you double up on things like Mind Sliver or Hideous Laughter, and Subtle is always ripe for shenanigans (and offers counterspell avoidance as well as your own Subtle counterspell).

It sounds like the main pull for Artificer Initiate is cure wounds; do you have a particularly juicy cantrip in mind? (The typical would probably be guidance, but you've gotten this far with your current party.)
If you're looking for a gp-efficient way to stretch your party's HP while reducing the out-of-combat load on the healers (i.e. not a million Potions of Healing), the Healer feat probably does that more efficiently than adding cure wounds to your list with a single free daily casting. (Healer also synergizes with the whole Rogue-with-a-heart-of-gold RP aspect.)

We tend to have a lot of long term AoE spells going or do well getting the bad guys in a group. So, with Artificer Initiate I was looking at Guidance or Thorn Whip. Our Warlock is pact of the tome and already has guidance, so there is less need for that. But being able to move people around could have a large impact on strategy, especially is someone is next to the squishy Wizard. So, it would likely be that. Otherwise I'm not sure on the first level spell.



I would suggest Alert it’s boring but you are pretty stacked in initiative but not enough to nearly always be going first adding another +5 would just about guarantee that you would be going first in every combat. Extra turn is so good.

You’ll also be immune to surprise and invisible creature doesn’t get advantage.

I did forget to mention a few important things with Alert.
1) I have a lantern of revealing
2) The Wizard has a Staff of Warning

[Keravath]

What is WW? War Wizard?

Meta magic adept: (not a great choice) Meta magic adept is cool but you only get 2 sorcery points which is only useful for twinning up to 2nd level spells - so less useful in your case - can't use it for haste for example. It is also only useful to quicken one spell/day or to apply extend/distant/subtle to two spells/day. Most of the other metamagic options either cost too much or require charisma. Subtle could be good depending on your campaign and your spell selection.

Eldritch Adept (devils sight): (neutral to awesome choice depending on several factors) If your DM uses the perception rules as written (disadvantage in dim light) then picking up devils sight has a lot more value since you can see clearly to 120' in complete darkness. It also lets you attack things at range with advantage if you are outside their vision range but inside yours. However, does your party ever fight in the dark? How often are light and darkness and environmental effects a consideration? This also has more value if your character doesn't have darkvision - being able to go without a light source for a rogue is very good since stealth really becomes possible (stealth carrying a torch isn't an option) - though if you have the darkvision spell this can help but if it gets dispelled then you are stuck.

Also, does the Celestial Warlock also have devils sight? If the warlock has devils sight then 1/2 the party can make use of darkness+devils sight under the right circumstances (however, this really depends on how the DM runs darkness, attacking creatures you can't see, and several other factors - most people seem to instinctively think that not being able to see your target is a much bigger factor than your target not being able to see you - both of these effects cause similar consequences in game terms).

Alert: (decent utility choice) Alert is a good feat since it prevents surprise and helps you go first - but you already have +5 to initiative - how important is it for you to go first? Will it have a significant impact on how things go? (Sometimes it is good for a caster to go first since sometimes you can hit a group of creature or buff a party member - but often the opponents are spread out, especially at higher levels, so there may not be as much benefit to going first. Usefulness also depends on how often your party is faced with ambushes.

Fighting Initiate: (neutral to good choice) If you used ranged attacks most of the time then the archery fighting style is really good. You could also pick up blindfighting which gives 10' blindsight which can be useful for fighting in the dark though Devils sight is likely a strictly better choice for that option.

ASI +2 int: (neutral) This depends on how often you use attack spells. DC is important at higher levels but a difference of 1 is still only 5% and you could pick this up with a Headband of Intellect assuming you have the attunement slots for it.

War Caster: (neutral) How often do you have to cast spells with both hands full? If you are just holding a bow you always have a hand free anyway. The op attack casting of booming blade is pretty cool but an op attack would already trigger sneak attack. In addition, usefulness depends on how often you are in melee and of that subset how often do you get an op attack. Advantage on concentration saves is good if you frequently have to make saves but you already have resilient con. Depending on how often you need or could use each of these features, War Caster varies from useless to pretty good.

Lucky feat: (you didn't mention this one but it can be a good pick at this stage of the game) If you have all your essential ASIs and feats then Lucky can be a good filler. It isn't a great feat but it can backstop your saving throws (essential concentration save or another save), it can change that devastating crit into a miss which is useful for a squishy rogue especially if you've already used uncanny dodge, and it can give you a second chance on an essential ability check.

Artificer Initiate: (meh :) ) If you have a role playing reason then go for it but otherwise there are much better choices for feats/ASI in my opinion.

Gift of the Chromatic Dragon: bonus action d4 damage increase to all attacks for 1 minute and a reaction to gain damage resistance when taking damage of specific types. Interesting but I think you will get more from the resistance since you only have one attack and if you already have the absorb elements spell (which you probably do) then it is partially redundant.

Gift of the Metallic Dragon: Learn cure wounds (which you could get with the artificer feat) and also the equivalent of the shield spell usable for yourself or another creature within 5'. It uses your reaction so it can't stack with the shield spell. How often are you in melee where you could use it to protect an ally? If you can cast it, you'd probably use the shield spell though this is slightly better when you reach level 17.

Depending on your circumstances, I'd likely pick Eldritch Adept (Devils sight) if the situations where it would be useful ever come up (especially as a rogue) or Lucky. If going first in a round is essential or you face ambushes then Alert would be a top pick. Other than that, the rest are mostly neutral depending on how frequently the benefit would make a difference (taking +2 int will let your int be 20 with the ASI at 17 - if you want that for your last ASI for example - but bumping int is really important only if you frequently cast spells on opponents).

Good luck with your pick :)

[solidork]

Since you've got access to darkvision, Skulker has some of the same benefits of Devil's Sight. It also helps you see better in dim light, which devil's sight does not weirdly enough. I think it could be an interesting choice for a masked vigilante who strikes from the shadows - it's powerful but you need the right kind of situation to take it. You could flavor it as a supernatural power since there are circumstances where it lets you hide that are pretty out there - if you're in dim light you can stand right in front of someone and hide.

I agree with the above poster - it'll depend on how much lighting comes into play in your game.

[nickl_2000]

*SNIP*

Good luck with your pick :)

Thanks!

Eldritch Adept - Devil's Sight - The Warlock also has Devil's sight. No one else has a way to get around it, but putting it in a good place on the battlefield could be pretty darn awesome when 1/2 the party can see through it. I don't think the Warlock has the spell, but it's definitely a spell that I can cast and it would fit into the Zorro like personality.

Warcaster- I have BB, I frequently am in melee to GFB. However, I can usually strike and then disengage and get back to safety

+2 int - I can get a headband of intellect. However, my attunement slots are completely full with extras.

Gift of the Chromatic Dragon - For this, I would use my bonus action to give a damage boost to the Paladin's weapon. Then action to haste him and let him do what Paladins do while I get out of the way. I nearly always go ahead of him in initiative so I can drop it in round 1. That being said 1 use of this a day isn't really worth it when I have absorb elements.

[meandean]

A note: many DMs rule that Resilient is one feat (that is, not separate Con and Wis feats) and can't be taken twice.I don't think that's even a "ruling"... the feat you're taking is called "Resilient", and you can't take "Resilient" more than once. It's no different than other feats that provide different options as part of their structure, like Magic Initiate, Martial Adept, etc. (FWIW, Crawford has confirmed this (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/651525101901365248?lang=en).) Obviously, Rule 0, but other than that.

What class are you planning to proceed in beyond 15th level?

[nickl_2000]

I don't think that's even a "ruling"... the feat you're taking is called "Resilient", and you can't take "Resilient" more than once. It's no different than other feats that provide different options as part of their structure, like Magic Initiate, Martial Adept, etc. (FWIW, Crawford has confirmed this (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/651525101901365248?lang=en).) Obviously, Rule 0, but other than that.

What class are you planning to proceed in beyond 15th level?

My intent is to take Rogue to the end. It will be 1 more level and a possible 2nd level.

[KorvinStarmast]

A note: many DMs rule that Resilient is one feat (that is, not separate Con and Wis feats) and can't be taken twice. The only feat that can be taken twice is Elemental Adept.

At certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement (ASI) feature. Using the optional feats rule, you can forgo taking that feature to take a feat of your choice instead. You can take each feat only once, unless the feat’s description says otherwise. The only feat that says otherwise is elemental adept.

I don't think that's even a "ruling"... the feat you're taking is called "Resilient", and you can't take "Resilient" more than once. You are correct. :smallsmile:

[nickl_2000]

Does it make a difference that I just found out we will hit 17, giving the PC 2 more ASIs? Would you do something differently?

[x3n0n]

Does it make a difference that I just found out we will hit 17, giving the PC 2 more ASIs? Would you do something differently?

(If I hadn't committed to Rogue and I didn't care that much about Reliable Talent, I'd consider dipping, probably Fighter 2 for a "capstone" of Action Surge. If I did that, I'd be significantly more tempted to take War Caster now so I could effectively use a shield.)

If I decided to take Rogue for the last two levels, I don't see any feats that add level-appropriate new options (that is, things that will "feel" like 9th-level spells).

Given that:

There's fun emotional closure in maxing my secondary by taking Int+2 and Int+2 (which also maxes my initiative).
If I decided not to max Int, I'd like to take something "fun" (i.e. something that actively gave me more options) now (like Metamagic Adept or Devil's Sight) to play with those new options for as many levels as possible and then something boring but effective with the last one (probably Lucky, which would give me a decent chance of passing bad saves when combined with Arcane Deflection).

[Sherlockpwns]

I say eschew all reason and take inspiring leader. Give grand speeches every short rest your party can’t stand but has to listen to!

[Kenny_Snoggins]

Hardcover material only? Because if UA is on the table Cartomancer gives you the ability to store one spell after a long rest in a deck of cards then pull it out and cast it as a bonus action. Didn't seem immediately strong to me until I noticed there wasn't any restriction on how many spells could be enchanted that way aside from 1/ long rest and the size of the deck. So if you have a lot of downtime it becomes like a ring spell storing with 52 slots each which holds a leveled spell equal to your proficiency bonus.

[Frogreaver]

Take the skilled feat. You are about to get reliable talent. With your proficiency bonus you could add 3 skills that won’t ever roll below a 15.

[nickl_2000]

I say eschew all reason and take inspiring leader. Give grand speeches every short rest your party can’t stand but has to listen to!

This one is funny because not only is his charisma negative, but we also have a celestial warlock who gives temp hp every rest and more than my PC would give.

[RogueJK]

I say eschew all reason and take inspiring leader. Give grand speeches every short rest your party can’t stand but has to listen to!


This one is funny because not only is his charisma negative, but we also have a celestial warlock who gives temp hp every rest and more than my PC would give.

Inspiring Leader requires 13 CHA anyway.

[Hael]

The gift feats are pretty weak. Ditto for Artificer initiate (unless you are going for magic stone cheese). Not recommended

Alert would be my top choice but you are already covered there with items.

Warcaster is great, but you need to decide how much the reaction procs for you (how much time do you spend in that sort of range where it will trigger).

Eldritch adept.. Probably not at this point in the campaign. Too many things also see through magical darkness.

Given all of that, I would probably pick lucky or the int boost.

[nickl_2000]

I decided to go +2 int for the ASI after all. Having 1 more wizard spells prepared is a nice little bonus and this will help my spells stick.


Thanks everyone!