Making a Counterspell Machine

[MarkVIIIMarc]

First off, I love Counterspell. When I DM I save it for the smarter caster opponents. As a player I absolutely love it.

It may not be worth the investmemt but how would one go about building a Counterspell focused character searching for the best bonus?

Some combination of Lore Bard, Fiend pact and Fey Wanderer Ranger?

[solidork]

The Hobgoblin racial that improves ability checks could be helpful.


I'm kinda of the opinion you should just go Abjuration Wizard - you might be able to squeak out an overall higher bonus with a weird MAD multiclass build, but the thematic consistency of being a Wizard who says No is too much to pass up. Monoclass Lore Bard so you eventually get Glibness and Peerless Skill also is acceptable.

[follacchioso]

Sorcerers are the best Counterspellers now, thanks to the Magical Guidance feature from Tasha. It allows to reroll an ability check, after the dice has been rolled, at the expense of one sorcery point.

They also have access to Subtle Spell, which allows them to Counterspell without potentially be Counter-Counterspelled by an enemy in range.

Unfortunately, Distant Metamagic does not help, because the description of the spell explicitly mentions 60' ("1 reaction, which you take with when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"), so the metamagic option does not work.

[lall]

It has to be sorcerer due to Subtle Spell. Without it, the DM might never counter your Counterspell, but it would drive me crazy knowing they could. Metamagic Adept doesn’t get you much.

[Psyren]

Taking the above into account, Abjurer 14/Clockwork Soul 6 might be the best dedicated counterspeller. This would get you Improved Abjuration, Magical Guidance AND Subtle Spell.

[Bobthewizard]

I think subtle and magical guidance are more important than the bonuses that abjuration wizards get at level 10 and lore bards get at level 14. Those come on too late and so cost too many sorcery points. You want more sorcery points which means more sorcerer levels.

Then I think you need to focus on movement and tanking. You need to be within 60' of the enemy when they cast, so you can't let them back up to 65'. To do that, you need to get to them and lock them down.

I think the best way to do that would be some paladin levels for smiting. Either just two for smite, or six for extra attack and the aura. For this, I'd start paladin for heavy armor and wisdom saves, which will be more important to you than concentration saves, although you might want resilient CON later.

For spells, you want movement spells - misty step, kinetic jaunt, fly, dimension door, scatter - and spells to lock down opponents - hypnotic pattern, wall of force, forcecage. I like clockwork soul for this build so you get access to wall of force, and Bastion of law, while not a great use of sorcery points, fits a tanky sorcerer.

[da newt]

A race or feat or class/subclass that grants access to invisibility / greater inv / BA hiding etc would certainly help prevent your counterspells from being countered.

In a recent AL session the BBEG's go to was GrINV to start combat and they had a LA counterspell. It was a nasty combo. The newer Veccna has a similar modus operandi.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Thank you all very much.

The bonuses coming on early is definately helpful since thats where most gaming takes place.

Interesting points about a melee Counterspell character. I always think of casters as ranged but being 65 feet away sure elimates all your Counterspell bonuses!

[H_H_F_F]

Two levels of bard later in the build give you Jack of all trades, which should work on counterspell.

[KorvinStarmast]

Two levels of bard later in the build give you Jack of all trades, which should work on counterspell. It does....

[Snowbluff]

You know what, lemme grab Just Helping, they've been working on this for a while.

[Snails]

As a practical matter, I agree that the most reliable counterspeller is someone who can stand on the front line and push forward. Being able to see the spellcaster and keeping him within 60 feet is impossible to do reliably from the rear. IME, I am seeing more "almost counterspelled" results than actual counterspells, where the enemy spellcaster is 70 feet away from our own spellcasters who are lingering in the rear.

That suggests Soradin to me. In the long run, an Ancients Paladin has both Aura of Protection and Aura of Warding, so wandering forward into the scrum and failing to counterspell is less of an issue. Subtle Spell is valuable here, as it adds reliability and makes precious level 3+ spells slots go further. Finding a bonus to the check would be helpful, because the Soradin is going to have to make do with mostly level 3 slots to counterspell whatever may come -- Bard in the party, Hobgoblin race, Luck feat, etc. there are a number of possibilities.

[Psyren]

Built well, an Abjurer can definitely be tanky enough to hang on the front.

[nickl_2000]

How can we get guidance in there as well? Because guidance should also work on counterspell

[Psyren]

How can we get guidance in there as well? Because guidance should also work on counterspell

Magic Initiate? It would burn your concentration until that first counter though.

[nickl_2000]

Magic Initiate? It would burn your concentration until that first counter though.

True, but it would be nice to have it constantly up when out of combat. You could be ready to counter in that first round.

[Damon_Tor]

Some way to reliably identify spells being cast as they're cast seems pretty critical in this build. Not sure how to do that, honestly. I guess you and a simulacrum could take turns being the "coach" and the "hitter". If you're in the "Magic Mouth knows everything" camp (I'm not) then you could make an earpiece that announces the name of any spell cast near you.

[Khrysaes]

Artificer initiate feat allows an intelligence based spell, such as a wizard’s, to be cast through a tool as a spell casting focus. Per the phb you can add your proficiency bonus to any ability check, such as the one made in counter spell, in which you use thr tool you are proficient in, such as using it to cast counter spell.

Additionally, artificer 6 gets expertise in all tools, and at 7 you can use your reaction to add intelligence to an ability check. Counter soell also uses your reaction, so you cant use both there, but dispel magic can benefit from flash of genius.

A artificer armorer/abjurer or battlesmith/blade singer or whatever has a lot if synergy too.

[kazaryu]

Artificer initiate feat allows an intelligence based spell, such as a wizard’s, to be cast through a tool as a spell casting focus. Per the phb you can add your proficiency bonus to any ability check, such as the one made in counter spell, in which you use thr tool you are proficient in, such as using it to cast counter spell.
thats a pretty dubious reading of RaW..but i suppose it'd be worth asking the DM lol.


First off, I love Counterspell. When I DM I save it for the smarter caster opponents. As a player I absolutely love it.

It may not be worth the investmemt but how would one go about building a Counterspell focused character searching for the best bonus?

Some combination of Lore Bard, Fiend pact and Fey Wanderer Ranger? i'd drop the lore bard and fiend pact. if you want best bonus then you want fey wanderer/abjurer/sorcerer...not in that order. i'd say something like sorcerer 5->fey wanderer-3 (for that almost immediate static boost)->abjurer 10. sorcerer gets you counterspell as a cha spell, and (if your DM allows it) the free re-roll using sorcerery points. in theory you can end up with a +16 to the counterspell check...or guaranteed countering of lvl 7 or higher spells. in practice of course the bonus will be much lower.

wild magic sorcerer lets you give yourself advantage on the ability check, and draconic sorcerer would give you a bit of extra tankiness...i'd probably go draconic. that extra HP and free mage armor would probably be real nice, since you're looking at wanting a good cha, and wis, and a 13 int. when you get into a fight that includes a caster, you're gonna wanna use your concentration on enhance ability, for advantage on the check. but...yeah. that gets you the best bonus unless your DM allows the artificer cheese





How can we get guidance in there as well? Because guidance should also work on counterspell just use enhance ability, its a better bonus and doesn't require recasting.

[NaughtyTiger]

How often are spells actually used by the bad guys?

I see plenty of magic effects, but actual casters are not common enough in the games i play.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Artificer initiate feat allows an intelligence based spell, such as a wizard’s, to be cast through a tool as a spell casting focus. Per the phb you can add your proficiency bonus to any ability check, such as the one made in counter spell, in which you use thr tool you are proficient in, such as using it to cast counter spell.

Additionally, artificer 6 gets expertise in all tools, and at 7 you can use your reaction to add intelligence to an ability check. Counter soell also uses your reaction, so you cant use both there, but dispel magic can benefit from flash of genius.

A artificer armorer/abjurer or battlesmith/blade singer or whatever has a lot if synergy too.


How often are spells actually used by the bad guys?

I see plenty of magic effects, but actual casters are not common enough in the games i play.

It depends I guess. For awhile I was DMing and a lich was the main antagonist. Then giants were the main bads, then Drow. Drow have spells.

In games I play in it cycles. What I almost never see are enemies in armor lol.

[Just Helping]

You know what, lemme grab Just Helping, they've been working on this for a while.

I have been summoned! And boy, do I have spreadsheets about this topic!

The first thing to note, is that you're also getting Dispel Magic and Telekinesis checks optimized on top of this.

The second thing is, what level are you starting at?

The easiest 100% build is a Star Druid 2/Abjurer 10 with good Intelligence, using the Dragon Starry form to get 10 on your roll, and the proficiency and Int bonus to hit that +9 for the 19 result you reliably need to counterspell anything.
During ECL 5 to 12, though, you're not much above any other character.



1) Wild Sorcerer 5. Gives you two rerolls and Subtle Spell for uncounterable Counterspells.

2) Bard 2, for half-proficiency bonus, though this won't give access to Counterspell itself.

3) Lore Bard 14, to apply your Bardic Inspiration to yourself.

4) Artificer 7, for Flash of Genius.

5) Rogue 11 can also take 10 on counterspell rolls if you are also a Bard 2, though going so long on a third-caster will hurt when repeat performances are needed.

Note that Starry Form only works for Int or Wis counterspellers, and most of the other options here are not those.

At any rate, you can have good odds of counterspelling a Meteor Swarm by level 5 if you play your cards right.

[Khrysaes]

I have been summoned! And boy, do I have spreadsheets about this topic!

The first thing to note, is that you're also getting Dispel Magic and Telekinesis checks optimized on top of this.

The second thing is, what level are you starting at?

The easiest 100% build is a Star Druid 2/Abjurer 10 with good Intelligence, using the Dragon Starry form to get 10 on your roll, and the proficiency and Int bonus to hit that +9 for the 19 result you reliably need to counterspell anything.
During ECL 5 to 12, though, you're not much above any other character.



1) Wild Sorcerer 5. Gives you two rerolls and Subtle Spell for uncounterable Counterspells.

2) Bard 2, for half-proficiency bonus, though this won't give access to Counterspell itself.

3) Lore Bard 14, to apply your Bardic Inspiration to yourself.

4) Artificer 7, for Flash of Genius.

5) Rogue 11 can also take 10 on counterspell rolls if you are also a Bard 2, though going so long on a third-caster will hurt when repeat performances are needed.

Note that Starry Form only works for Int or Wis counterspellers, and most of the other options here are not those.

At any rate, you can have good odds of counterspelling a Meteor Swarm by level 5 if you play your cards right.

I actually thought of the druid dragon starry form right before i read your post. Was going to add it

Artificer
Flash of genius, as mentioned cant work with couterspell as they both use reaction. However, if the artificer initiate feat does work with it using the tool as the casting focus as it is using the tool, it could work with a star druid/wizard, OR 11 rogue.

Also of note. If allowed, i believe the mark of sentinel human and/or azorious racnica background add counterspell to the spell list of whatever class. If so, AND if the tool spellcasting focus works,

11 rogue/6artificer
Could take 10 on the abikity check if the tool is used as a casting focus and auto attain a result of 22. There may be easier ways to do that.

Mark if sentinel star druid/arcane cleric is an option, you dont add proficiency but you get spell breaker which could be nice.

[meandean]

If allowed, i believe the mark of sentinel human and/or azorious racnica background add counterspell to the spell list of whatever class. If so, AND if the tool spellcasting focus works,

11 rogue/6artificer
Could take 10 on the abikity check if the tool is used as a casting focus and auto attain a result of 22. There may be easier ways to do that.Sure, a 15th level Bard can cast glibness and have a minimum result of 22 (15 from the spell, +5 from Charisma, +2 from Jack of All Trades). He doesn't have to do anything weird, just be a Bard. If he's a Lore Bard, he can inspire himself on that check and add 1d12 to it. Considering a 19 auto-succeeds, this is worth absolutely nothing, but you can impress your friends, if your friends have that little going on in their lives.

[NaughtyTiger]

Unfortunately, Distant Metamagic does not help, because the description of the spell explicitly mentions 60' ("1 reaction, which you take with when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"), so the metamagic option does not work.

technically, any creature casting a spell within 60ft would satisfy the trigger condition.

[Just Helping]

I actually thought of the druid dragon starry form right before i read your post. Was going to add it

Artificer
Flash of genius, as mentioned cant work with couterspell as they both use reaction. However, if the artificer initiate feat does work with it using the tool as the casting focus as it is using the tool, it could work with a star druid/wizard, OR 11 rogue.

Good catch, I forgot about that since I'd never recommend much less than full caster for this kind of thing.


Also of note. If allowed, i believe the mark of sentinel human and/or azorious racnica background add counterspell to the spell list of whatever class. If so, AND if the tool spellcasting focus works,

11 rogue/6artificer
Could take 10 on the abikity check if the tool is used as a casting focus and auto attain a result of 22. There may be easier ways to do that.

Star Druid isn't unlimited, but I would pick 2 levels over 11 in a third caster for this to be honest.


Mark if sentinel star druid/arcane cleric is an option, you dont add proficiency but you get spell breaker which could be nice.

Star Druid only works if you get at least half proficiency in bonuses from somewhere other than a 22 stat.


Sure, a 15th level Bard can cast glibness and have a minimum result of 22 (15 from the spell, +5 from Charisma, +2 from Jack of All Trades). He doesn't have to do anything weird, just be a Bard. If he's a Lore Bard, he can inspire himself on that check and add 1d12 to it. Considering a 19 auto-succeeds, this is worth absolutely nothing, but you can tell your friends, if your friends have that little going on in their lives.

Glibness is an expensive choice, but at least doesn't use concentration. A warlock could also use said spell for a 20 result, though you really want to have 19 check counterspells online a good few levels before 17th -- you never know when your enemy's first 9th is gonna drop!

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Its neat seeing some different paths here.

I have a Lucky Lore Bard I get to play occasionally. Next campaign I'll probably get a subtle spell Sorcerer.

In another campaign I have a fun psi warrior / rogue / hexblade mess I'm playing that pobably won't get to cast it without a magic item. Drat, I do love reactions.

[Just Helping]

Its neat seeing some different paths here.

I have a Lucky Lore Bard I get to play occasionally. Next campaign I'll probably get a subtle spell Sorcerer.

In another campaign I have a fun psi warrior / rogue / hexblade mess I'm playing that pobably won't get to cast it without a magic item. Drat, I do love reactions.

Lucky Wild Sorcerer gets 4 rolls of that d20, if you want to get risky with it.

[KorvinStarmast]

As a practical matter, I agree that the most reliable counterspeller is someone who can stand on the front line and push forward. Being able to see the spellcaster and keeping him within 60 feet is impossible to do reliably from the rear. IME, I am seeing more "almost counterspelled" results than actual counterspells, where the enemy spellcaster is 70 feet away from our own spellcasters who are lingering in the rear.

That suggests Soradin to me. In the long run, an Ancients Paladin has both Aura of Protection and Aura of Warding, so wandering forward into the scrum and failing to counterspell is less of an issue. Subtle Spell is valuable here, as it adds reliability and makes precious level 3+ spells slots go further. Finding a bonus to the check would be helpful, because the Soradin is going to have to make do with mostly level 3 slots to counterspell whatever may come -- Bard in the party, Hobgoblin race, Luck feat, etc. there are a number of possibilities.
Watchers Oath paladins get Counterspell at level 9, but I think your idea on Sorcadin is a pretty solid response to the OP request.


2) Bard 2, for half-proficiency bonus, though this won't give access to Counterspell itself.

3) Lore Bard 14, to apply your Bardic Inspiration to yourself.
Hmm, does the spell 'Glibness' work as a boost to counterspell? It does apply to Charisma checks. A Bard's spell casting stat is Charisma. The bard is making an ability check (Charisma) during counterspell.
We had always treated that as an unmodified (by proficiency) skill check.

[nickl_2000]

Hmm, does the spell 'Glibness' work as a boost to counterspell? It does apply to Charisma checks. A Bard's spell casting stat is Charisma. The bard is making an ability check (Charisma) during counterspell.
We had always treated that as an unmodified (by proficiency) skill check.

At the cost of an 8th level spell, it had better.

[Just Helping]

Hmm, does the spell 'Glibness' work as a boost to counterspell? It does apply to Charisma checks. A Bard's spell casting stat is Charisma. The bard is making an ability check (Charisma) during counterspell.
We had always treated that as an unmodified (by proficiency) skill check.

Yes, RAW that is how it works. It's the same thing that lets Dragon Starry Form or Reliable Talent help out.

[KorvinStarmast]

At the cost of an 8th level spell, it had better.
Wow. If it does ... Getting this at level 15 (if one has counterspell from magical secrets) means that for an hour counterspell is auto succeed since 15 + 2 (Jack of All Trades) and +3 (assumes only a 16 charisma score) is 20 and all one needs is a 19 to counter a level 9 spell. Granted, that's a level 8 slot invested, so using it that was would probably be done after doing some heavy scouting of the enemy.

[Just Helping]

Wow. If it does ... Getting this at level 15 (if one has counterspell from magical secrets) means that for an hour counterspell is auto succeed since 15 + 2 (Jack of All Trades) and +3 (assumes only a 16 charisma score) is 20 and all one needs is a 19 to counter a level 9 spell. Granted, that's a level 8 slot invested, so using it that was would probably be done after doing some heavy scouting of the enemy.

Eh, a no-item Level 15 Lore Bard with the Lucky feat is already hovering right around a 94% success rate (by my year old math) for counterspelling with that BI die. The 6% failure rate doesn't seem worth burning the slot and spell known on it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Eh, a no-item Level 15 Lore Bard with the Lucky feat is already hovering right around a 94% success rate (by my year old math) for counterspelling with that BI die. The 6% failure rate doesn't seem worth burning the slot and spell known on it.
How so? The ability check is based off of the spell casting ability, right?
So, d20 + Cha Mod + Jack of All Trades (+2) with Glibness already in play, is auto succeed. 15 + 5, 6, or 7 depending on Cha score. I make no assumption about Lucky feat, why did you add this to the conversation? I was referring only to Glibness, the spell. The BI die can roll a 1. :smallyuk: But it can also roll higher. :smallsmile:

Lore Bard has already got a high chance of Counter spell from JoaT. Using that slot (8) would be for a case where one has scouted out the enemy needs to be sure to counter their spell casting.

There certainly are other spells at level 8 that one may want if that situation isn't what one is faced with. 8th level slots are scarce. (Of course, the times I cast Feeblemind the enemy always saved, so maybe I should have taken Glibness. Who Knows?)

[Just Helping]

How so? The ability check is based off of the spell casting ability, right?
So, d20 + Cha Mod + Jack of All Trades (+2) with Glibness already in play, is auto succeed. 15 + 5, 6, or 7 depending on Cha score. I make no assumption about Lucky feat, why did you add this to the conversation? I was referring only to Glibness, the spell. The BI die can roll a 1. :smallyuk: But it can also roll higher. :smallsmile:

Lore Bard has already got a high chance of Counter spell from JoaT. Using that slot (8) would be for a case where one has scouted out the enemy needs to be sure to counter their spell casting.

There certainly are other spells at level 8 that one may want if that situation isn't what one is faced with. 8th level slots are scarce. (Of course, the times I cast Feeblemind the enemy always saved, so maybe I should have taken Glibness. Who Knows?)

I was saying that Glibness isn't worth it when other options that are more broadly useful and less costly can get you mostly there. Lucky as a feat helps here but also in a lot of other things.

As for the odds, there is a mathematical distribution of falling short of 19 that amounts to 6% of scenarios with Lucky in play, if you don't have Glibness or the 22 Cha.

EDIT: Though I need to rerun the numbers, something doesn't look right.
EDIT 2: Near as I can tell, numbers are correct.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I was saying that Glibness isn't worth it when other options that are more broadly useful and less costly can get you mostly there. Lucky as a feat helps here but also in a lot of other things.

As for the odds, there is a mathematical distribution of falling short of 19 that amounts to 6% of scenarios with Lucky in play, if you don't have Glibness or the 22 Cha.

EDIT: Though I need to rerun the numbers, something doesn't look right.
EDIT 2: Near as I can tell, numbers are correct.

Is it 11% if you have 20CHA?

[Just Helping]

Is it 11% if you have 20CHA?

No, the failure rate was 6% with a 20 CHA, and since you're rolling three dice it doesn't go up or down by even 5%pt gradations anymore.