fishing for advice on a quest idea

[leegi0n]

Playgrounders,

I'd like to preface this by saying that this idea has been brewing since long before Stranger Things 4 was released.

In the following text, please feel free to inject any ideas you may have.

I am brainstorming a campaign that involves the deity Vecna. Specifically, it takes place in a dream that the god is having. The players/ and their corresponding characters are oblivious to this of course and it will be the big reveal at the end of the game, whenever that happens. We are playing in a homebrew world, using 3.0/3.5 source material and regulations.

The overall theme of Vecna's dream is to locate 5 pieces of phylactery that Azlan planted in 5 locations within Ravenloft - probably eastern (less played) locations like Richemulot, Falkovnia, Mordent, Dementlieu, and finally Darkon. The characters are his means of finding these items. The story will culminate with them attempting to make the Doomsday machine succeed and thus create a gateway back to the material plane. This will ultimately fail and history will remain as it is with the machine exploding.

Where I really need your help, everyone, is that I want the game to begin on the Material Plane with them being contracted by a high ranking city official or the like, to recover a stolen artifact that has been taken by a cult that is rumored to be affiliated with a necromancer. I would like it to be a bit more complicated than that and have a city council or politician involved who is supporting this organization. However, there will be a double-cross and the characters will find out that the person that hired them is actually responsible for setting up the initial heist to try and get a rival assassinated. They will ALL be discovered and arrested to be put to death on conspiracy of murder charges.

At the gallows, the mist will appear and we go to Ravenloft. Ideas on any of this? What could the object be? Who could the employer(s) be or the cults/parties involved?

I intend on having a neutral, game moving NPC being involved periodically throughout the story. This character is actually attempting to invade the dream and rescue these characters from Vecna's imagination. He is a gnome (sage/mystic wanderer) type character that isn't very powerful from a combat perspective but knows a LOT about history, geography, magic, etc., and can navigate the planes pretty well. He's like Tyrion Lannister in a lot of ways.

I'm probably leaving things out that you all would need to know but any advice/feedback would be appreciated. I'll gladly answer questions, etc.

Thanks for your time.

[Segev]

The big trouble with this is threefold, and it's the same problem in each point: you've determined what the outcome of the PCs' actions will be.

1) In the intro, you've determined they cannot discover the assassination plot before it's too late to be implicated, and they WILL be caught and executed.
2) In the climax, you've determined they WILL fail to put the doomsday machine together; it won't and cannot work.
3) In the conclusion, you've determined that the whole thing is a dream, which may not seem like quite the same thing, but means that their actions may not actually matter at all.

Now, (3) is mitigated somewhat by it being a god's dream, and thus the consequences of things they do may impact the god's actions in the real world, or his options in the real world, etc.

For (2), since it's a dream, does it even matter if they succeed or fail? If "no," that's almost worse if the players realize it post facto. It makes their adventure feel robbed of significance.



Now, the intro is good if you're willing to have a more agency-laden way in. If you really want the execution scene, you should instead have the game start with that scene, and then the players get to take control once they're "dead"/in Ravenloft. Have them tell you what happened to bring each of them to the gallows as their "backstory" for how they get into the game.

But, if you want to use the assassination plot as something playable - and I do think it a cool intro - let them play it out however they like, but the villain who hired them and the target of assassination and maybe the hanging judge are all such awful people that the culmination of that adventure will be one of them becoming a Dread Lord of a new Dominion, and the PCs' choices and actions helping one or another will drive the one they most harm to the final act of horrifying depravity that calls down the Mists.

Meanwhile, during the entirety of the first arc, every time the PCs go to sleep, run an entirely different campaign plot. They find themselves in a blasted mountainscape, or in a vast and eye-twisting tunnel system, or even strapped to a lab table in an underground lab surrounded by horrors. This is Bluetspur (not sure if it exists prior to 5e, but it's a good place to start things even if not). A mix of "quest to escape" and "figure out what's bringing us here every night" is a good starting motivation for that one. Meanwhile, of course, after they find space to rest, they wake back up in "the real world." You can have any magical boons or curses they got in the form of inserted magic items still...be there...for added horror.

I would have the Elder Brain at the heart of Bluetspur have gotten ahold of the Eye of Vecna, and is slowly losing itself to the Eye. The 5 pieces of a phylactery are actually the five fingers of the Hand of Vecna. The mad Elder Brain thinks getting both might slow or stop its death. In reality, it might get it possessed by Vecna, it might trap Vecna as a Domain Lord, or it might do something even the DArk Powers are uncomfortable with. This could be a plot by Vecna. It could be Vecna himself was drawn into Bluetspur in his dreams, and that's how his Eye got left there and his Hand shattered across the Domains.

Maybe they're sent on the quest by a mysterious benefactor who helps them out of the nightmare of Bluetspur (actually the Elder Brain), or maybe they bargain for their freedom. Depending on how the plot that drops them into the Demiplane of Dread unfolds, maybe the Elder Brain's agents sweep in with the Mists to rescue the PCs from the gallows, or to drag off the third of the three potential domain lords - the PCs help one, drive another to dominion lord status, and the third is in a position to seriously harm them and the Elder Brain's vampire illithids act as the cavalry in a very uncomfortable way. Or rescue them from the newly-empowered Domain Lord's wrath, maybe.

Anyway, not fully-formed, but hopefully some helpful ideas.

Big thing: make sure nothing you're doing denies their agency unfairly. Dragging their dreaming selves into Bluetspur is fair; it's magical kidnapping that there's no defense against. Unless they have one, in which case, let that work and see where the mists consuming their location goes without the direct influence of the Elder Brain. Maybe they find the Palm of Vecna and are given the quest to unite the pieces by another Domain Lord (Azalin himself?), and the Elder Brain's minions are recurring antagonists who keep insisting that they're working for the wronged party.

[Telonius]

"Player agency" alarm bells going off for me too.

To get around that - maybe make some kind of a "bifurcation point." The PCs are living their lives and Vecna's dream is basically him gaming out ways to achieve his goal, given all the secrets he knows. The dream starts the night before Session One. The dream ends at the end of the story arc. Make sure you build in some kind of "success" condition. Where, if the players succeed, they blip right back to Session One with all of the knowledge (and XP/levels) they earned while in the dream. (Hey, the dream is Vecna's, he's a god, so let's just say it can do that). So now the players know the god's goals, and they can decide what they want to do about it.

[leegi0n]

The big trouble with this is threefold, and it's the same problem in each point: you've determined what the outcome of the PCs' actions will be.

1) In the intro, you've determined they cannot discover the assassination plot before it's too late to be implicated, and they WILL be caught and executed.
2) In the climax, you've determined they WILL fail to put the doomsday machine together; it won't and cannot work.
3) In the conclusion, you've determined that the whole thing is a dream, which may not seem like quite the same thing, but means that their actions may not actually matter at all.

Now, (3) is mitigated somewhat by it being a god's dream, and thus the consequences of things they do may impact the god's actions in the real world, or his options in the real world, etc.

For (2), since it's a dream, does it even matter if they succeed or fail? If "no," that's almost worse if the players realize it post facto. It makes their adventure feel robbed of significance.



Now, the intro is good if you're willing to have a more agency-laden way in. If you really want the execution scene, you should instead have the game start with that scene, and then the players get to take control once they're "dead"/in Ravenloft. Have them tell you what happened to bring each of them to the gallows as their "backstory" for how they get into the game.

But, if you want to use the assassination plot as something playable - and I do think it a cool intro - let them play it out however they like, but the villain who hired them and the target of assassination and maybe the hanging judge are all such awful people that the culmination of that adventure will be one of them becoming a Dread Lord of a new Dominion, and the PCs' choices and actions helping one or another will drive the one they most harm to the final act of horrifying depravity that calls down the Mists.

Meanwhile, during the entirety of the first arc, every time the PCs go to sleep, run an entirely different campaign plot. They find themselves in a blasted mountainscape, or in a vast and eye-twisting tunnel system, or even strapped to a lab table in an underground lab surrounded by horrors. This is Bluetspur (not sure if it exists prior to 5e, but it's a good place to start things even if not). A mix of "quest to escape" and "figure out what's bringing us here every night" is a good starting motivation for that one. Meanwhile, of course, after they find space to rest, they wake back up in "the real world." You can have any magical boons or curses they got in the form of inserted magic items still...be there...for added horror.

I would have the Elder Brain at the heart of Bluetspur have gotten ahold of the Eye of Vecna, and is slowly losing itself to the Eye. The 5 pieces of a phylactery are actually the five fingers of the Hand of Vecna. The mad Elder Brain thinks getting both might slow or stop its death. In reality, it might get it possessed by Vecna, it might trap Vecna as a Domain Lord, or it might do something even the DArk Powers are uncomfortable with. This could be a plot by Vecna. It could be Vecna himself was drawn into Bluetspur in his dreams, and that's how his Eye got left there and his Hand shattered across the Domains.

Maybe they're sent on the quest by a mysterious benefactor who helps them out of the nightmare of Bluetspur (actually the Elder Brain), or maybe they bargain for their freedom. Depending on how the plot that drops them into the Demiplane of Dread unfolds, maybe the Elder Brain's agents sweep in with the Mists to rescue the PCs from the gallows, or to drag off the third of the three potential domain lords - the PCs help one, drive another to dominion lord status, and the third is in a position to seriously harm them and the Elder Brain's vampire illithids act as the cavalry in a very uncomfortable way. Or rescue them from the newly-empowered Domain Lord's wrath, maybe.

Anyway, not fully-formed, but hopefully some helpful ideas.

Big thing: make sure nothing you're doing denies their agency unfairly. Dragging their dreaming selves into Bluetspur is fair; it's magical kidnapping that there's no defense against. Unless they have one, in which case, let that work and see where the mists consuming their location goes without the direct influence of the Elder Brain. Maybe they find the Palm of Vecna and are given the quest to unite the pieces by another Domain Lord (Azalin himself?), and the Elder Brain's minions are recurring antagonists who keep insisting that they're working for the wronged party.

Thanks for this. I really like the idea of Bluetspur. I didn't want to make the initial post too lengthy so I'll add some more details here. Tell me if you think it may improve the mechanic or if it's no good.

Keep in mind that as I've created this as a god's dream, I want to keep it as weird and random as possible. I want to have each player create 3 characters. They will play one of these three characters randomly chosen by me, should their current character die, in game. If they end up with the character they previously played, it will be randomly modified (higher/lower level, better/worse gear, different or better feats, etc.). Who they get (after a character death) will be unknown until the day before we game and they will have to essentially work with what they're given. Again, I'm trying to be as bizarre as possible and keep the players uncomfortable in this setting.

The gnome character I mentioned above could possibly be sent by another god that is trying to intervene and rescue the characters from Vecna's dream. That said, the god's dream may be lucid enough so that he actually sends an agent of his own to follow the gnome to stop what he's doing.

What do you think about the multiple characters and manipulator NPCs? How do you see it fitting, if at all?

Thanks -

[Segev]

If you're okay with them knowing this is going to be a weird game, then telling them to make 3 characters and that they'll play a random one each session or so can be part of the pitch, and should be. I don't know that I'd like that, myself. Not entirely sure what playing different characters represents. But it's not necessarily a bad design feature if that's what you want to do and you've got a solid explanation for what it represents that the same mind - the player - is playing 3 different characters chosen at random.

Dream logic is a logic all its own. And especially in fiction trying to represent it, you struggle with having to make it make sense to a waking mind in at least the moment, as well. So having things that it "represents" helps. Not in a psychological sense, necessarily, so much as just what the mechanics you're using are saying about the nature of the PCs, the dream, and the dreamer.