Changeling Face : Eloquence Bard or Divine Soul Sorcerer?

[Eradis]

My Changeling Build is back on the table and now that I know Magic in our Settings is frown upon, I'm hesitant to take Eloquence Bard over Divine Sorcerer.

TL/DR: I'm seeking your opinion and guidance Ô great community!

Factors to consider:

Party of Two or Three people (One is a Bloodhunter, the other one might be a Rogue)
I want to support my party (Out of Combat heals; Buff; Enemy debuff...)
Magic is controlled by a higher faction in which we are part of. Although, we don't have much power over people, so magic in plain sight is straight up risky
We are starting Level 1



To my knowledge:
Pros of Bard

Better Face
More Versatile
More Support Options (to my knowledge)



Pros of Sorcerer

More Damage Output, yet still has Support Options
Subtle Spells is Great for a Face and for the Setting

[P. G. Macer]

¿Por qué no los dos?

In accordance with forum rules, that means, “why not both?”

Which is my way of saying, “Is multiclassing allowed at your table?” If so, depending on your starting level, Bard/Sorcerer is a pretty decent multiclass combo, and I can see the best of both worlds there for you.

If that option isn’t available, given what you’ve said about the setting I’d go with the Divine Soul option, as hostile-to-magic settings can (from what I understand) be otherwise brutal to full casters.

[meandean]

There are many spellcasting classes that can do things like healing without using spells (e.g. Paladin, Celestial Warlock, Dreams Druid)... or perhaps an Artificer could try to pretend it's all gears and cogs and there's no magic involved. Lacking evidence to the contrary, I'll assume that whoever banned magic isn't dumb enough to fall for that stuff, and that you do actually need to hide your magic.

As a changeling, you can of course easily assume the form of something (I leave it to your imagination what) that "everyone knows" can't cast spells. Seems like a smart thing to do, but again, that doesn't necessarily fully solve the problem, so, let's keep going.

Subtle Spell doesn't address the issue of material components. Usually, an arcane focus, which can be as mundane-looking as a wooden staff, can be used instead of material components. Is your DM going to rule that someone noticed you gripping your staff funny? It's theoretically possible, but it feels like that would be a real di... I mean staff move. There are two situations where you'd still need to look out. One is that the arcane focus can't substitute for material components if the spell consumes the component. A component pouch can do that, but it'd be less of a staff move to rule that someone can notice you rummaging through your "utility belt". The arcane focus also can't substitute for a material component that has a cost. (This is often a diamond, ruby, etc.)

I don't think these are big issues, because often these are things you wouldn't be casting in public (divination, teleport, etc.), or are just spells you generally can go without. (Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I5TS9FKSmyNkA2-fGWRKz11C2PPm5QC5hGv9wbz3X5w/)'s a list of spells that have components with a cost. I couldn't find a good list of spells that consume a component. There are at least a couple in the game that consume a component even though no cost is listed, so unfortunately, one list doesn't cover the other.) Still, just be aware that Subtle Spell doesn't cover every situation. To have a plausible backup plan, you should also be proficient in Sleight of Hand. If you do need to pull something out of your component pouch or pockets where someone could see it, you can argue that you did it so quickly and expertly that no one noticed. It's not RAW, so, no guarantees. But, at least when you're not giving any other signs that you're casting a spell, it feels like a reasonable ask.

You may want to consider Aberrant Mind, which has an ability that lets you cast spells with no components whatsoever (unless the casting consumes the component). It's limited: two spells from each of 1st-5th level, either off a certain list, or you can swap the spells off the list for other divination/enchantment spells for sorcerers/warlocks/wizards of the same level. And it also costs a lot of sorcery points (one per spell level). So, it's only letting you do very specific things on relatively rare occasions. But, that's only fair, given how potentially powerful it is to cast spells without components. If this interests you, play with the options a bit and see if these are spells you'd want to have as major parts of your arsenal.

[Eradis]

¿Por qué no los dos?

In accordance with forum rules, that means, “why not both?”

Which is my way of saying, “Is multiclassing allowed at your table?” If so, depending on your starting level, Bard/Sorcerer is a pretty decent multiclass combo, and I can see the best of both worlds there for you.

If that option isn’t available, given what you’ve said about the setting I’d go with the Divine Soul option, as hostile-to-magic settings can (from what I understand) be otherwise brutal to full casters.

Indeed "Why not both". Since Sublte spells don't come into play before level 3 (or is it 5? ~ a few levels), I will have to deal with being a magic user in a world hostile to magic anyway. (See below for the conclusion of this thought)


There are many spellcasting classes that can do things like healing without using spells (e.g. Paladin, Celestial Warlock, Dreams Druid)... or perhaps an Artificer could try to pretend it's all gears and cogs and there's no magic involved. Lacking evidence to the contrary, I'll assume that whoever banned magic isn't dumb enough to fall for that stuff, and that you do actually need to hide your magic.

As a changeling, you can of course easily assume the form of something (I leave it to your imagination what) that "everyone knows" can't cast spells. Seems like a smart thing to do, but again, that doesn't necessarily fully solve the problem, so, let's keep going.

Subtle Spell doesn't address the issue of material components. Usually, an arcane focus, which can be as mundane-looking as a wooden staff, can be used instead of material components. Is your DM going to rule that someone noticed you gripping your staff funny? It's theoretically possible, but it feels like that would be a real di... I mean staff move. There are two situations where you'd still need to look out. One is that the arcane focus can't substitute for material components if the spell consumes the component. A component pouch can do that, but it'd be less of a staff move to rule that someone can notice you rummaging through your "utility belt". The arcane focus also can't substitute for a material component that has a cost. (This is often a diamond, ruby, etc.)

I don't think these are big issues, because often these are things you wouldn't be casting in public (divination, teleport, etc.), or are just spells you generally can go without. (Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I5TS9FKSmyNkA2-fGWRKz11C2PPm5QC5hGv9wbz3X5w/)'s a list of spells that have components with a cost. I couldn't find a good list of spells that consume a component. There are at least a couple in the game that consume a component even though no cost is listed, so unfortunately, one list doesn't cover the other.) Still, just be aware that Subtle Spell doesn't cover every situation. To have a plausible backup plan, you should also be proficient in Sleight of Hand. If you do need to pull something out of your component pouch or pockets where someone could see it, you can argue that you did it so quickly and expertly that no one noticed. It's not RAW, so, no guarantees. But, at least when you're not giving any other signs that you're casting a spell, it feels like a reasonable ask.

You may want to consider Aberrant Mind, which has an ability that lets you cast spells with no components whatsoever (unless the casting consumes the component). It's limited: two spells from each of 1st-5th level, either off a certain list, or you can swap the spells off the list for other divination/enchantment spells for sorcerers/warlocks/wizards of the same level. And it also costs a lot of sorcery points (one per spell level). So, it's only letting you do very specific things on relatively rare occasions. But, that's only fair, given how potentially powerful it is to cast spells without components. If this interests you, play with the options a bit and see if these are spells you'd want to have as major parts of your arsenal.

This made me think about how I will have to use magic in plain sight here and there from level 1 regardless of my choice.

I will go for Bard of Eloquence for all its none-magical utilities that it can bring to the table and his less flashy spells (Vicious Mockery is, after all, a mental spell. The foe feels the attack, but I don't believe there are visible magic flinging from the character's mouth). If I feel, as I level up the absolute need to have subtle spells, I will branch out to Sorcerer until I hit that metamagic feature.

Thank you both for this brainstorming. It really helped!

[da newt]

AS a changeling YOU will never have to use magic in public - you just need to be someone else. Subtle is for chumps who worry about getting caught.

[Psyren]

AS a changeling YOU will never have to use magic in public - you just need to be someone else. Subtle is for chumps who worry about getting caught.

This is a great point. Particularly if you use MotM Changeling, you can be a Small race while casting anything where anyone can see and then hide and go Medium before the authorities arrive (or vice-versa.)

[Eradis]

I will be using MotM Changeling. That is why I plan to have a few aliases, including one for casting. I will just have to sort out how I will arrange the clothing situation. Disguise Kit takes too long, Disguise Self takes a precious Slot, so I am thinking reversible outfits.

[meandean]

I interpret that line about changelings' clothing less restrictively. It doesn't make sense to me that you could change your gender presentation, change from Gnome height to Goliath height, gain or lose massive amounts of weight, and yet still appear to be wearing "the same clothing". I think it means that you're still being considered to wear the same clothing for game purposes (including magic items like belts), but you can change the appearance of that clothing as you like.

It's unclear, so if you don't know how your DM is interpreting this, ask. Otherwise, you can take the Eldritch Adept feat and get the Mask of Many Faces invocation, which allows at-will casting of the disguise self spell.

[Eradis]

I interpret that line about changelings' clothing less restrictively. It doesn't make sense to me that you could change your gender presentation, change from Gnome height to Goliath height, gain or lose massive amounts of weight, and yet still appear to be wearing "the same clothing". I think it means that you're still being considered to wear the same clothing for game purposes (including magic items like belts), but you can change the appearance of that clothing as you like.

It's unclear, so if you don't know how your DM is interpreting this, ask. Otherwise, you can take the Eldritch Adept feat and get the Mask of Many Faces invocation, which allows at-will casting of the disguise self spell.

Yeah no, the clothes do not change. So if you switch from one peasant looking human to a taller, noble looking aasimar, you will end up looking like an Aasimar that just crossed a shallow river.

Eldritch Adept? This sounds super interesting. Do you know in which book this feat is?

[meandean]

Eldritch Adept? This sounds super interesting. Do you know in which book this feat is?Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. It allows you to take one warlock invocation. The requirements are that 1) you either have the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature, and 2) if the invocation has any prerequisites, you must be a Warlock that meets those prerequisites. So, for example, even if you got eldritch blast by a method other than being a Warlock, you still can't use Eldritch Adept to take Agonizing Blast, since you're not a Warlock. But, if you're a Sorcerer or some other spellcaster, you can use Eldritch Adept to take Mask of Many Faces, which has no particular prerequisites.

[Kenny_Snoggins]

I'd go with the eloquence bard, they are rad. You basically have expertise, reliable talent, and telepathy which is an unbeatable combo for a face. With 20 Cha your persuasion score on a nat 1 roll at level 9 is 23. Oh, and you can do that to anyone who knows a language using your telepathy feature. So they dunk on everyone as a face, which is the point of the subclass.

Obviously check with the DM but I'd also say bard magic in general due to the instrument as focus etc, is a lot less Obviously MAGIC than is the case for any other arcane caster. Not to the point of subtle spell by any means, but in general you play music and strange things happen, you're not just shooting lightning bolts out of your eyeballs.

Healing is going to be tricky although the healing spell bards use most, healing word, is another one that I think is not very obviously magical to a bystander. Aside from that you have song of rest, and with magic secrets you can pick up aura of vitality or goodberry (could also get that from feats) and with goodberry you could make a tortuous argument that you could self- inspire by abusing infectious inspiration before a long rest and apply magical inspiration to the casting so each one would be 1HP+Inspiration which is definitely contentious but you guys have like zero healing now and that's the easiest way to get concealable magic healing in the party as soon as you can get the spell through a feat.

The setting crimps a bit of your combat utility since Eloquence Bards can be saving throw deletion machines by they really need to be paired with a big damage caster who drops the nuke after the unsettling words debuff that you can reinforce with silvery barbs if they still pass with the large roll penalty.

[Eradis]

Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. It allows you to take one warlock invocation. The requirements are that 1) you either have the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature, and 2) if the invocation has any prerequisites, you must be a Warlock that meets those prerequisites. So, for example, even if you got eldritch blast by some method besides being a Warlock, you still can't use Eldritch Adept to take Agonizing Blast, since you're not a Warlock. But, if you're a Sorcerer or some other spellcaster, you can use Eldritch Adept to take Mask of Many Faces, which has no particular prerequisites.

Checking this one, I stumbled upon the Metamagic feat which look as delicious. I have a lot to pick my brain about now. Thanks!