Help with starting choices for Kobold Battlesmith

[freakybeak]

Heya! I'm about to start playing a Kobold Battlesmith in a home campaign. I'll be starting at level 8 and will take sharpshooter at level 4, not worrying about boosting int because I will start with a headband of intellect and have completely dumped that stat (which I love because it means I can have legitimately decent scores in other areas). I've gone over a few options and my two favourites are:

- Take 8 levels of artificer and grab the archery fighting style through fighting initiate. This doesn't delay artificer progression which is great, but it limits me from potentially taking a feat like crossbow expert or gunner. I'd prefer to have archery over one of those feats as I intend on using my steel defender as often as possible as it's a big part of my character's concept.
- Take 7 levels of artificer and grab 1 fighter to get archery. This slows the arti progression but has the advantage of letting me see how often I'm ending up in melee and thus require CBE etc, and also allows me to grab another feat if that doesn't feel needed.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated!

[meandean]

If you mean "completely dump" Intelligence as in less than 13, then you won't be able to multiclass as an Artificer. The headband doesn't count towards that.

[freakybeak]

If you mean "completely dump" Intelligence as in less than 13, then you won't be able to multiclass as an Artificer. The headband doesn't count towards that.

I think my DM will be ok with allowing that. Good point though, I hadn't actually considered that. Edit: I also don't think that's actually RAW, though Crawford has tweeted about it siding with your view, so there's a strong argument for it.

[Nod_Hero]

'Magic Item Ability Scores' not qualifying for multiclassing is a pretty easy viewpoint.

"You enter an 'Antimagic Field' and no longer have a 19 Intelligence from your Headband. Thus no longer meeting multiclassing prerequisites... where's your Fighter levels now?"

[Mastikator]

A battlesmith gets a steel defender that weaponizes your bonus action so CBE will only help you in melee.

An alternative can be the returning weapon infusion with a javeli , Fighter Initiate with duelist (+2 damage melee and thrown with javelin) and the sentinel feat.
You stand next to your steel defender and get the benefit of deflect attack, your steel defender gets the benefit of sentinel.

With an enhanced half plate armor and a radiant shield shield your AC will be 15 + dex (max 2) + 2, potential 21 (+5 with shield => 26).
Your attacks will do 2x 1d6+6 +1d8+3. With a range of melee safe /30f no disadvantage throw.

Not superb DPR but very tanky, very supportive, very versatile, and decent healing. You kinda get everything.

[freakybeak]

'Magic Item Ability Scores' not qualifying for multiclassing is a pretty easy viewpoint.

"You enter an 'Antimagic Field' and no longer have a 19 Intelligence from your Headband. Thus no longer meeting multiclassing prerequisites... where's your Fighter levels now?"

I feel like if that happens, I've got bigger problems than a single level of fighter. Also I'm not sure why you've quoted magic item ability scores? Is that a term from a particular source referring to multiclassing or class features? I don't disagree that you could easily come to the opinion that you need that as a base level, but I also think the opposite can be true. Let's say someone found a magic pill that made them significantly more intelligent, would they not be able to begin studying things that were previously unintelligible to them?

[animorte]

Let's say someone found a magic pill that made them significantly more intelligent, would they not be able to begin studying things that were previously unintelligible to them?

While I certainly agree, this creates the argument yet again that just because it is a logical piece of common sense for us outside of the game, the rules intended within the game don’t directly support it. Then the rules lawyers come out.

But if your DM allows it, I think it’s completely fine. In fact, just recently I posted on this very topic:

However, removing multi class stat prerequisites is essentially equivalent to the ASI for those who intend to multi class (Warlock/Paladin). For anybody else who has no intention of multi classing OR their different classes have the prerequisite they’re already maxing (Cleric/Druid), it makes no difference.

Honestly removing the prerequisite helps to make up a tiny bit for being however many levels behind in spell progression or extra attack, what-have-you. Some may not appreciate the imbalance there while others think it’s completely fair. So I still think it’s ok, and haven’t encountered any issues with my groups.

[freakybeak]

While I certainly agree, this creates the argument yet again that just because it is a logical piece of common sense for us outside of the game, the rules intended within the game don’t directly support it. Then the rules lawyers come out.

But if your DM allows it, I think it’s completely fine. In fact, just recently I posted on this very topic:

I saw that actually! I agree. I think if someone is trying to attune to an item, take a level in a class, then never use that item that's a different story. In this case I think it makes sense for narrative reasons and, whilst it's kind of strong, I think never being able to max int is a decent nerf in the later stages of the game which we will quite likely reach. Also losing an attunement slot.

[meandean]

Well, okay. Do check with your DM, because I personally wouldn't allow it, even though I'm far from a rules stickler.

I also want to say that a Battle Smith Artificer, given the Battle Ready ability, is one of the SADder characters you can make. What else are you really spending your points on?

Assuming Tasha's point swap, the min/max artificer archer build would be 17 Intelligence, 16 Dexterity, 15 Constitution (planning to take Resilient (CON) later), 8s otherwise.

If you dump Intelligence, presumably you move the 17 to Dexterity. If you're a Sharpshooting archer, you really don't need Strength, so that can stay at 8 (unless you use encumbrance). If you leave the 15 in Constitution, you can have 16/8 in Wisdom or Charisma (either way around), or 14/12. If you move the 16 to Constitution, then Wisdom/Charisma can be 15/8, 14/10, or 13/12 (again, either way around).

All this to say... what then is the plan? Do you multiclass into a Wisdom or Charisma class? Do you want to be a face or at least backup face, with Charisma of 15 or 16? Do you value the +1 to Dexterity and possibly Constitution a lot? Do you just hate the concept of being terrible at three different stats? I can envision a lot of reasonable answers, but I'm curious what your build goal is.

[Nod_Hero]

Let's say someone found a magic pill that made them significantly more intelligent, would they not be able to begin studying things that were previously unintelligible to them?

Permanent stat increases are different than an item granting a set score. Your magic pill = Tome of Clear Thought, for instance. Once you've read it, you're 2 Int smarter from then on.

Something taking off or nullifying a Headband is a different situation.

[Stangler]

I have looked into the decision to multi class to fighter on a battle smith or not a lot for my own character and it is really hard to justify delaying your artificer levels. You effectively pay a cost for the multi class every level.

[freakybeak]

Well, okay. Do check with your DM, because I personally wouldn't allow it, even though I'm far from a rules stickler.

I also want to say that a Battle Smith Artificer, given the Battle Ready ability, is one of the SADder characters you can make. What else are you really spending your points on?

Assuming Tasha's point swap, the min/max artificer archer build would be 17 Intelligence, 16 Dexterity, 15 Constitution (planning to take Resilient (CON) later), 8s otherwise.

If you dump Intelligence, presumably you move the 17 to Dexterity. If you're a Sharpshooting archer, you really don't need Strength, so that can stay at 8 (unless you use encumbrance). If you leave the 15 in Constitution, you can have 16/8 in Wisdom or Charisma (either way around), or 14/12. If you move the 16 to Constitution, then Wisdom/Charisma can be 15/8, 14/10, or 13/12 (again, either way around).

All this to say... what then is the plan? Do you multiclass into a Wisdom or Charisma class? Do you want to be a face or at least backup face, with Charisma of 15 or 16? Do you value the +1 to Dexterity and possibly Constitution a lot? Do you just hate the concept of being terrible at three different stats? I can envision a lot of reasonable answers, but I'm curious what your build goal is.

I did check with my DM, he thinks it's fine.

Why take res:con? I already have proficiency in Con saves.

I think I just like the idea of being a well rounded character - can help out with strength checks here and there, decent Wisdom checks etc. I don't need to be a face as we have plenty of Charisma characters in the party, but I like the idea of none of my stats being terrible.

[freakybeak]

Permanent stat increases are different than an item granting a set score. Your magic pill = Tome of Clear Thought, for instance. Once you've read it, you're 2 Int smarter from then on.

Something taking off or nullifying a Headband is a different situation.

I meant a pill like in that movie Limitless where he has to keep taking it for it to work.

[Psyren]

I find the idea of a dumb character who relies on their headband to learn/access artifice to be intriguing. You could make a character kind of like The Thinker or Prometheus, both DC villains who rely on their helmets for their smarts. (Or if you want to be dumb + particularly strong, some versions of Gorilla Grodd used to work like this too.)

Anyway - if you want to use your Steel Defender as much as possible, I wouldn't bother with XBE as it takes up your bonus action. Just use the action on your SD and pick up a different feat instead. I wouldn't even go for gunner personally, rather I'd use shocking grasp if they get into melee and then walk out.

[Sherlockpwns]

I think the bigger question is what CBE is really doing here.

You don’t need the bonus attack so it’s just melee ranged attack? You just don’t need to be there.

Defender defends your other PCs just as well as it does you.

Now, is a feat worth +2 to hit; probably if you are dead set on sharpshooter IF you are already at +5 dex. Otherwise I’d take the dex (or INT for normal artificers).

That all said I am similarly planning an artificer thrower and similarly debate fighter 1 vs ASI. The simple reality is fighter only wins out in my calculus if you take it to 2 or 3. A 1 level dip gets you a mini heal and the style but basically nothing else. So boring as it is, I say artificer 8 and spend 1 feat on SS and the second on stats or the style depending on your situation. Alternatively get gunner if the DM is allowing it if you need the odd stat point.

Really though unless you are playing with modern firearms a heavy crossbow will do just fine.

[freakybeak]

I think the bigger question is what CBE is really doing here.

You don’t need the bonus attack so it’s just melee ranged attack? You just don’t need to be there.

Defender defends your other PCs just as well as it does you.

Now, is a feat worth +2 to hit; probably if you are dead set on sharpshooter IF you are already at +5 dex. Otherwise I’d take the dex (or INT for normal artificers).

That all said I am similarly planning an artificer thrower and similarly debate fighter 1 vs ASI. The simple reality is fighter only wins out in my calculus if you take it to 2 or 3. A 1 level dip gets you a mini heal and the style but basically nothing else. So boring as it is, I say artificer 8 and spend 1 feat on SS and the second on stats or the style depending on your situation. Alternatively get gunner if the DM is allowing it if you need the odd stat point.

Really though unless you are playing with modern firearms a heavy crossbow will do just fine.

I guess the thing is that I will likely be one of the tankier members of the party, so being able to run up and take some hits or body block enemies might come in handy, but maybe that's my defenders job....

Edit: I don't need dex because I use int to hit thanks to battlesmith

[freakybeak]

I find the idea of a dumb character who relies on their headband to learn/access artifice to be intriguing. You could make a character kind of like The Thinker or Prometheus, both DC villains who rely on their helmets for their smarts. (Or if you want to be dumb + particularly strong, some versions of Gorilla Grodd used to work like this too.)

Anyway - if you want to use your Steel Defender as much as possible, I wouldn't bother with XBE as it takes up your bonus action. Just use the action on your SD and pick up a different feat instead. I wouldn't even go for gunner personally, rather I'd use shocking grasp if they get into melee and then walk out.

This guy gets it! The backstory is that he has been tasked with learning about the outside world to eventually come back and share this knowledge with his clan. Roleplaying a stupid guy who is now smart sounds really fun to me!

[Sherlockpwns]

I guess the thing is that I will likely be one of the tankier members of the party, so being able to run up and take some hits or body block enemies might come in handy, but maybe that's my defenders job....

Edit: I don't need dex because I use int to hit thanks to battlesmith

The defender ironically isn’t great at defending its self. Granted every hit it takes is one fewer attack on the PCs so not terrible either, but it certainly wants at least one other frontline person with it. If your party has none then I’d consider the whole thrown weapon angle more. You end up with more AC and mediocre damage but the ability to both attack in melee and range without juggling weapons (saving infusions).

And yeah it sounds like a fun RP character so don’t get too hung up on perfection, lol.