Nobody likes taking a hit to constitution. (Poor elves)

[GuestEleven]

My group is starting a new 3.5/PF game soon, all of us players were spit balling what we were thinking about playing and I said I would play an elf fighter. Everyone assumed I meant a ranged fighter with a bow, so when someone mentioned we need a front line damage dealer and I said I was going to be the front line damage dealer everyone laughed and gave me the good natured flak you'd expect. I just had to roll my eyes and give it back to them, but reality is that they're right. The cumulative health deficit from the -2 con elves get is rough, especially in our group where encounters tend to be deadly if you're not solidly built. But in the case of elves and a few other choice race selections I think I have found a small bandaid for the problem (other than becoming undead) and figured I would share it since I don't really see it ever getting talked about.

Now in the case of Pathfinder elves they have a slight edge over 3.5 elves, getting +2 Dex -2 Con and +2 Int and in the case of this solution that +2 int is crucial. The fix is a feat introduced in Dragon Mag #319 called Faerie Mysteries Initiate. You may not have to wiggle room in your feats to justify it, but my character being a Fighter/Champion of Corellon I can make it work. The feat allows you to have one of four effects active at a time, all of them are at least decent but the one that we're looking for is the passions. Its effect is that, in place of your constitution modifier, you may use your intelligence bonus to determine your extra hit points. To me that is massive.

This feat does have a minor drawback however, in that it requires a "partner" with the feat to perform the ritual with you that grants the effect (which lasts until you perform another ritual for one of the other effects). Some may have trouble pulling this off as the racial prereq is being some form of elf or a tallfellow halfling. If you can't talk another player into running the feat with you then you will have to either find an NPC or get a cohort with the feat.

Hope this manages to help somebody!

[Rleonardh]

Easier fix for elves.

As it looks like they tall and skinny so must be weaker but faster.
Str -1
Dex +2
Con -1
Int 0
Wis 0
Cha 0

Or

More mythical elves (how I perceived them from lore).
Str -1
Dex +1
Con -1
Int +1
Wis +1
Cha +1

[lylsyly]

If allowed play a desert elf (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertElves) from the UA and SRD and skip the -2 CON

[Kurald Galain]

It's not so bad, really. Assuming you're aiming for dex to hit (and damage), then for most races it costs 22 points to get 18 dex and 14 con; whereas for elves it costs only 20 points to get 16+2 dex and 16-2 con.

Plus you're a fighter. You can afford to spend one of your many, many feats on Toughness.

[AsuraKyoko]

Improved Toughness negates the -1 HP/level quite nicely

[Faily]

I've played my share of frontline elves, and it's fine. As you advance the -2 Con doesn't matter as much.

I played a Champion of Corellon (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=444948) myself in the War of the Burning Sky published campaign (Paladin 5/Pious Templar 4/Contemplative 1), who was a frontliner. Sword and longsword-combo, picked up Spring Attack (via the bonus feats from Champion of Corellon since it must key off of your prerequisite feats), Bounding Assault, and Rapid Blitz. Paired with the improved mobility in heavy armor from the prestige class, she'd be super-mobile, move in and do lots of damage, and then move out again (thus denying her opponents full attacks on her).

With a Fighter-chassis, you can easily pick up things like Toughness to undo the -2 Con penalty. If you're dipping into any arcane-casting, you can potentially start with Mind Over Body feat (lets you use Charisma or Intelligence to determine bonus HP at 1st level, gives more hp when you learn metamagic, plus +1 insight bonus to AC if you're an arcane caster).

[Draconi Redfir]

honestly? just roll with the reduced con. if the HP is a problem, use some of your bonus feats to get Toughness once or twice and it'll even out.


Put more of your points into Dex or something and make yourself an agile warrior instead of a tanky one, someone that's more built around dodging and blocking attacks rather then being an HP sponge.


the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat you're talking about sounds pretty good. Perhaps you could include characters in your background who could apply as the partner for it? A spouse, sibling, or tutor maybe?

If not, it'd be a great excuse to form close personal bonds with NPC's if the players aren't interested. Really get attached to one, make a story out of it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Just get some temporary hp. Ideally you want your party casters to handle that (because most spells that grant temp hp stack while most items don't so you can get a lot more),
but even in the absolute worst case the Amulet of Tears costs a rather affordable 2300gp and gives you up to 36 extra hp each day.

Spells:
Aid (Cl2, Lck2) 1d8+CL (max 10), touch, 1 min/level
Aid, Mass (Cl3) 1d8+CL (max 15), AoE 1 min/level
Aid, Legions (Cl4) 1d8 +Cl (max 20), AoE 1 min/level
Bears's Heart (Dr4, Cl5) +1d4/Cl, AoE, 1 round/level
Chaav's Laugh (Cl5) 1d8 +CL (max 20), good only, AoE 1/min level
Divine Power (Cl4) 1/CL, personal, 1 round/level
False Life (Wiz2) 1d10 +CL (max 10), personal, 1 hour/level
Feast of Champions (CL9) 1d8 +1/2CL (max 10), AoE, 12 hours
Heart of Earth (Dr4, Wiz4, WJ4) 2xCL (max 30), personal, 1 hour/level
Heat Drain (Cl8) 2/target, AoE attack, 20ft burst, 1 min/level
Heroes' Feast (Brd6, Cl6) 1d8 +1/2CL (max 10), AoE, 12 hours
Heroism, Greater (Brd5, Wiz6) +1/CL (max 20), touch, 1 min/level
Leech Undeath (Cl7, Wiz8) 5/CL, single attack, close, 1 hour
Lion's Roar (CL8) 1d8 +CL (max 20), AoE, 1 min/level
Righteous Fury (Pa3) 5/CL (max 50), personal, 1 hour
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Cl7) 1d8 or 2d8, AoE, 1 round/level
Ruin Delver's Fortune (Ba4, Wiz4) 4d8 + Cha, personal, 1 round/level
Stalwart Pact (Cl5) 5 x 1/2CL (max 35), touch, permanent until triggered at half health, then 1 round/level
Unicorn Blood (Dr5, Wiz5) 1 x CL (max 15) or 2 x CL (max 30), touch, non-self, 10 min/level
Vampiric Touch (Wiz 3) 1d6 x 1/2 CL (max 10d6), touch attack, 1 hour

Feats:
Aberrant Dragonmark Vigor: 1/level, uses dragonmark SLA as fuel, 1 hour
Azure Toughness: 3/essentia, 1/day, 24 hours
Divine Vigor: 2/level, uses Turn Undead, 1 min/cha-mod
Initiate of Illmater: 3xHD max, turns overhealing into temp HP, 1 hour/CL, also +2 sacred fort and +2 sacred vs bull rush & trip
Minor Shapeshift: HD max, swift action reserve feat, 1 round/level of polymorph spell prepared
Imbued Healing: 1/HD, requires Healing domain, adds rider to healing spells, 1 hour

Items:
Ring of the Righteous (ECR) 25, 1/day, 5 minutes, also +4 sacred to Str

Classes:
Combat Medic (HoB) 8+class level, adds rider to healing spells (as Aid), 1 minute

As the fighter you should consider the Bloodstone (MIC) weapon enhancement, assuming your party has a caster who can fill it for you.
That way you can beef up your hp the first time you hit in a fight without wasting an action on it. Throw Spell-Storing on there too for a truly nasty alpha strike once per fight.

If you have a cleric casting aid or mass aid your party could also invest into an Empowered Spellshard (MIC) to squeeze out a few extra hp.

[Metastachydium]

If allowed play a desert elf (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertElves) from the UA and SRD and skip the -2 CON

For a melee fighter, -2 STR is not ideal. Personally, I'd go for snow elfFrost (+2 DEX, -2 CHA) instead. Maybe wild elf or the mechanically identical (if one doesn't care about favoured classes) painted elfSand (+2 DEX, -2 INT).

[Elves]

There's a bunch of elves without the Con hit: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1281.0

But Constitution is massively overrated. 2 Con is +1 on Fort saves and 1 hp/level. That's really nothing.

[GuestEleven]

Seeing a lot of people say just pick a different elf subrace. While obviously a mechanically sound decision that isn't how I roll. High elves are my favorite and I'm not about to dumpster them like that.

Also while yes you can just take improved toughness, and I in fact intend to take PF toughness and improved toughness anyway, a -2 to con is a cumulative deficit. At level 20 another fighter also level 20 without the negative to con that also has improved toughness will still have 20 more HP than you.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, you're a PF base elf and have two rolls left to place. A 14 and a 16. One needs to go in constitution and the other in intellect. You put the 14 in intellect which becomes 16, and you put the 16 in constitution which becomes 14. Then you pick up improved toughness. In 20 levels you have got 60 bonus hit points from that one feat and con.

Now let's do the same, but in reverse and with one extra spent feat on Faerie Mystery Initiate. You put 16 in your intellect which becomes 18 and 14 in con which becomes 12. Then you're getting 100 bonus HP from int and two feats.

Some people may say they don't think it is worth a feat and that's fine, but I personally say that difference isn't negligible. Especially for an elf wizard.

[Kurald Galain]

Especially for an elf wizard.

But according to your first post you're an elf fighter. What gives?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Some people may say they don't think it is worth a feat and that's fine, but I personally say that difference isn't negligible.

One feat is fine if you feel you need it, but you're planning to spend three feats on getting more hp. On top of a d10 base.
That's overcompensating more than a little for -2 con.

I'd recommend increasing your defenses to get hit less instead of going all-in on hp like that (or at least getting temporary hp because they don't need to be healed).
Otherwise your character will just turn into a hp sponge sucking down the parties healing resources.
Unless you're planning to get the Millenial Chainmail (MIC) anyway. Since you're an elf already you might as well go for it to lessen the blow.:smalltongue:

The other drawback is that a lot of attacks ignore hp entirely, so putting a huge amount of effort into them tends to leave a giant hole in your defenses.

[Kurald Galain]

Don't get me wrong, FMI is a great feat... that is, if you're playing in Greyhawk and if your GM allows Dragon material and if you have a willing sex partner who's adventuring with you (and who also takes the feat).

Even so, I would mainly recommend it for int-based classes like a wizard or Magus or alchemist. There are easier ways to get tons of HP, such as PF's Toughness, or UMD'ing a wand of False Life or Defending Bone, or investing in DR; and don't forget that PF clerics are rather better at in-combat healing than 3.5 clerics.

[AvatarVecna]

I think complaints about Con penalties are overblown. The game already biases in countless ways towards "the best defense is a good offense", and one of the main drivers for that is how offensively-strong things are. A Wizard 20 with Con 6 has 25 HP, and a Fighter 20 with Con 30 has 310 HP. And it doesnt matter, because both of them will get their ***** kicked in by ubercharging giants or monsters with SoD abilities. If the monsters are dealing 400 damage, or just infecting you with Big Dead directly, the difference between 3 HP and 300 HP is meaningless.

"20 HP difference at lvl 20" isn't even all that much. At lvl 1, it's a single hit point. Big whoop. By mid levels typical fighter will have maybe 18 Con from base score race and item. That's 1d10+4 for human fighters, and 1d10+3 for Elf with the exact same build. They have 11% more HP than you. That's aube a single extra Attack they can take, assuming the attacks are rather weak.

[pabelfly]

I like Elf Fighter builds. I enjoy the character flavour, and the bonus to Dex comes in handy if you do a dex-focused build, which boosts your attack rolls, Initiative, AC, and probably damage.

The CON issue is really overblown. When my character is dead, they're almost always well and truly dead and that extra few HP wouldn't be relevant.

[Draconi Redfir]

honestly i've got a PF Drow Skald (Bard/Barbarian hybrid) with a Con of 13. i mostly plan on just crossing my fingers for a constituion-increasing magic item at some point. MAYBE his 4th-level ability score increase to Con, MAYBE the toughness feat. Beyond that though, i'm not too bothered.

Granted the Rage ability will increase Con by a bit as well, so that'd also help.

ultimately it's a case of not worrying about it too much, use your lower constitution as a character-building aspect rather then a defect. Sure you might not have as many hitpoints as a dwarf fighter of the same build and level, but you're not a dwarf fighter, so why does it matter?

[sleepyphoenixx]

A Wizard 20 with Con 6 has 25 HP, and a Fighter 20 with Con 30 has 310 HP. And it doesnt matter, because both of them will get their ***** kicked in by ubercharging giants or monsters with SoD abilities. If the monsters are dealing 400 damage, or just infecting you with Big Dead directly, the difference between 3 HP and 300 HP is meaningless.
Except there are some effects with near-unavoidable damage, so you want at least a bit of a buffer to tank those. Especially at the levels before you can get meaningful temp hp or be immune to everything.
There's a reason a con item is on every non-undead's shopping list. You just shouldn't overinvest in it since hp is only part of your defenses.

Not to mention that your example is extremely unrealistic for a lot of tables.
I've yet to see any DM use an optimized ubercharger or mailman for an encounter.
Against most enemies hp do matter, just not enough to blow up three feats.

[AvatarVecna]

Except there are some effects with near-unavoidable damage, so you want at least a bit of a buffer to tank those. Especially at the levels before you can get meaningful temp hp or be immune to everything.
There's a reason a con item is on every non-undead's shopping list. You just shouldn't overinvest in it since hp is only part of your defenses.

Not to mention that your example is extremely unrealistic for a lot of tables.
I've yet to see any DM use an optimized ubercharger or mailman for an encounter.
Against most enemies hp do matter, just not enough to blow up three feats.

Uberchargers are uncommon, but save-or-suck/save-or-lose/save-or-die abilities aren't that uncommon. And big damage is still pretty popular at high levels of play. My example's extreme, but my point is more that there's a level of play where any reasonable amount of HP isn't going to be enough to survive - you need other defenses, especially saving throws. Rogues get away with being frontliners, even though a rogue and fighter with the same race and con score will have a 2 hp/level difference in their hp totals. Elf fighters can get away with being frontliners too.

[spectralphoenix]

You also gain two additional vulnerabilities with this - if you sacrifice CON for INT, you're hurting your fortitude saves as well. Fail a save-or-die and it doesn't matter how much hp you have. Second, you're dependent on the NPC with this feat following you around and being there for you every morning, and not getting kidnapped, caught inside a fireball, or just deciding they really don't want to follow you into the Tomb of Horrors and perform "exuberant sensual acts" with you there so you can get combat bonuses.

[Jervis]

This sort of reminds me of a homebrew race in my setting. They’re native outsiders who are kinda children of the goddess of magic, well children of strong sorceresses with the goddess of Magic’s blessings but it’s complicated. All of them get a -2 con hit in exchange for +2 to all mentals and some abilities. The god of war has a similar thing going on but his kids all get -2 Wis and a +2 to all physical stats. They both get a +1 LA but native outsiders so the lesser variant can be applied, of course the planetouched subtype is kind of brutal in this setting because it has so many things that target it but that’s a tangent of a tangent.

First tangent aside it is kinda rough but I kinda like hits to rough stats. Stat penalties are one of those things I actually like about 3.5 compared to later editions just because they force you to get creative.

[Thurbane]

I mean, they're good candidates for becoming undead for exactly this reason. You could lean into it, use Con as a dump stat, and grab Necropolitan as soon as you're able to.

Still, Fighter with d12+0 HP/level isn't great compared to d10 + Con modifier HP/level. The Necropolitan option is better if your base class has low HD, like Wizard etc.

[RandomPeasant]

Rogues get away with being frontliners, even though a rogue and fighter with the same race and con score will have a 2 hp/level difference in their hp totals.

I would dispute that Rogues really get away with being frontliners. Rogues are one of the "big damage" classes, and would very much like to either deal their big damage from range, deal big enough damage that their targets can't fire back, or both.

That said, the broad point is correct. If 1 or 2 HP per level were crucial for survivability, people would be way more excited about Improved Toughness than they are now. Put another way, the difference between "Elf" and "not Elf" will generally be lower than the difference between "cast false life" and "didn't cast false life". And, again, no one will tell you you're suicidal if you show up with a Wizard who happens to prefer detect thoughts or mirror image for his 2nd level spell slots. Playing an Elf frontliner is kinda dumb, but it's kinda dumb because you're not really getting anything you want or need for the lost CON, not because 2 points of CON makes you a cripplingly bad frontliner.

[Particle_Man]

Both knights and (if they are allowed) Warblades have d12, which kind of mitigates the hp loss due to con (plus there is a sweet elf flavoured prestige class that warblade leans into).

Even barbarian could work for that purpose, especially if one takes the variant that has one auto rage at half hp or below rather than for con plus three rounds.

[Crake]

FMI is great and all, and its hardly a new revelation, but I think a lot of tables find it rather cheesy, and an unnecessary buff to wizards, so I imagine youd be hard pressed to find a table that allows it where an elven fighter would be a competitive build in the first place

[Elves]

Basically, the idea that Con matters is a misconception. You don't want a Con penalty, and you do want the stat boost items when you can afford them. But a starting 10 is fine and 12 is all anyone needs. You will very rarely not survive something that you would have survived if you had extra HP equal to your HD.

[Melcar]

My group is starting a new 3.5/PF game soon, all of us players were spit balling what we were thinking about playing and I said I would play an elf fighter. Everyone assumed I meant a ranged fighter with a bow, so when someone mentioned we need a front line damage dealer and I said I was going to be the front line damage dealer everyone laughed and gave me the good natured flak you'd expect. I just had to roll my eyes and give it back to them, but reality is that they're right. The cumulative health deficit from the -2 con elves get is rough, especially in our group where encounters tend to be deadly if you're not solidly built. But in the case of elves and a few other choice race selections I think I have found a small bandaid for the problem (other than becoming undead) and figured I would share it since I don't really see it ever getting talked about.

Now in the case of Pathfinder elves they have a slight edge over 3.5 elves, getting +2 Dex -2 Con and +2 Int and in the case of this solution that +2 int is crucial. The fix is a feat introduced in Dragon Mag #319 called Faerie Mysteries Initiate. You may not have to wiggle room in your feats to justify it, but my character being a Fighter/Champion of Corellon I can make it work. The feat allows you to have one of four effects active at a time, all of them are at least decent but the one that we're looking for is the passions. Its effect is that, in place of your constitution modifier, you may use your intelligence bonus to determine your extra hit points. To me that is massive.

This feat does have a minor drawback however, in that it requires a "partner" with the feat to perform the ritual with you that grants the effect (which lasts until you perform another ritual for one of the other effects). Some may have trouble pulling this off as the racial prereq is being some form of elf or a tallfellow halfling. If you can't talk another player into running the feat with you then you will have to either find an NPC or get a cohort with the feat.

Hope this manages to help somebody!

I made an elf gish using that feat. It was a fighter 1, swashbuckler 3, abjuration domain wizard 5. Not only did I have the highest base damage, the highest AC I also had the highest HP. Not a particularly fun character to play for me, but very effective!

[Mordante]

I play an elf melee fighter with a bit of homebrew. The elf variant I use is:

+2 Str: +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma: Daemon elves, due to years of handling weapons and making graceful moves, have dexterity that surpasses most other races, but their reputation for being violent and bloodthirsty makes others wary of them.
Humanoid (Elf): Their appearance may differ greatly from the norm for their overall race, but daemon elves are still elves.
Medium: None
Daemon elves' base land speed is 30 feet.
Daemon Fist (Ex): Daemon elves are proficient with unarmed combat, so much so that their bodily strikes are more lethal than those of any other race. Daemon elves get +1 on all unarmed damage rolls.
Tolerance (Ex): Daemon elves often spend their free time drinking, giving them an unnaturally high tolerance to alcohol. Daemon elves can consume an amount of extra drinks equal to half their normal amount.
Automatic Languages: Common, Elven. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Giant, Gnoll.
Favored Class: Any physical combat-based class (Fighter, Brawler, Myrmidon, etc.) for males, any magical/psionic (All Psions, Ascendant, Wizard, Sorceror, etc.) or support (Bard, Dancer, etc.) class for females.
Level Adjustment: +0

My whole character is a bit home brew

10 level fighter
6 level arch blade
at 17th level I think I took a Fey touched template variant. In the campaign we played we were involved with the unseelie/winter court for a while, now I'm going to be Winters Knight (am I influenced by the Dresen files? Prehaps)

[Rebel7284]

I mean, you could always take both necropolitan and FMI for a D12+Int regardless of class. Low HD classes benefit from this more of course.

However as others have pointed out, it's extremely easy to mitigate -2 Con with a few build resources or even just using a fraction of WBL. After all, maximizing HP has diminishing returns.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You will very rarely not survive something that you would have survived if you had extra HP equal to your HD.

That depends entirely on how much you start with. 1 extra hp/HD is quite the increase when you're starting with a d4 after all. Less so for a d10 or d12 or a guy who already has 16 con.
You don't need to be able to soak a full attack from a dragon, but you want at least enough to tank some scratch damage, especially at lower levels. Keeling over after the first arrow is no fun.
At higher levels it's easy enough to compensate with spells and gear.

[Maat Mons]

If you're playing Pathfinder, remember that HP retraining is a thing. With a little downtime and some money for a trainer, you can increase your max HP up to what you would have had from rolling max values on all your hit dice.

Pathfinder also lets you gain +1 HP per level from your favored class bonus. If your race / class combo doesn't have any good additional options for favored class benefit, it's only really costing you 1 skill point per level.

If you're going to port 3.5 material to Pathfinder for extra HP, Necropolitan would be pretty good. In Pathfinder, the undead type gives +Cha*level HP.

The problem with elf is that, in both 3.5 and Pathfinder, most characters don't care too much about Dexterity. And Constitution is a nice to have for everyone. So there are very few characters for which elf is tempting.

Dex is a generally inferior stat to Str for melee. Ranged tends to be a worse combat style than melee. And for purposes of AC, you only care about having enough Dex to fill out your armor's max Dex bonus.

Most classes designed to wade into melee have heavy armor proficiency, so you don't need much Dex for AC. Most classes that need a non-trivial Dex bonus to max out their AC aren't designed to wade into melee. So Dex-y melee winds up being pretty niche.

And then, to actually use Dex for attacks, you need to spend a feat, which still doesn't give you Dex to damage. By the time you've gotten Dex to attack and damage, you've invested quite a bit of resources, and really only made Dex do what Str does out of the box.

At least Pathfinder gives Fighters a built-in way to boost max Dex of armor. And the Agile weapon special ability exists. So there's more of a case to be made there. I'd still prefer trading Armor Mastery for something cool, spending that +1 weapon enhancement on something else, and doing a Strength-based build though.

[Kurald Galain]

By the time you've gotten Dex to attack and damage, you've invested quite a bit of resources, and really only made Dex do what Str does out of the box.
Except that you've got (much) better initiative, reflex saves, some good skills, no armor check penalty, and higher movement rate; and with the Mage Armor spell you have a better AC than heavy armor gives you; and a simple (urban) bloodrager dip or mutagen gives a stacking +2 to all of the above. Dex-based melee characters tend to be better than str-based, and all that for the low, low price of only two feats.

[GuestEleven]

You also gain two additional vulnerabilities with this - if you sacrifice CON for INT, you're hurting your fortitude saves as well. Fail a save-or-die and it doesn't matter how much hp you have. Second, you're dependent on the NPC with this feat following you around and being there for you every morning, and not getting kidnapped, caught inside a fireball, or just deciding they really don't want to follow you into the Tomb of Horrors and perform "exuberant sensual acts" with you there so you can get combat bonuses.

Sorry to say, but you are wrong my friend. Nothing in the feat says you have to perform the ritual every morning or keep your companion on tap, just that the effect lasts until you perform another ritual for one of the other effects. Running it RAW you could realistically do the ritual for the Passions once and never see them again, keeping the effect permanently.

[Melcar]

Sorry to say, but you are wrong my friend. Nothing in the feat says you have to perform the ritual every morning or keep your companion on tap, just that the effect lasts until you perform another ritual for one of the other effects. Running it RAW you could realistically do the ritual for the Passions once and never see them again, keeping the effect permanently.

This i exactly how the feat works, and part of why it’s so good!

[Max Caysey]

A Wizard 20 with Con 6 has 25 HP, and a Fighter 20 with Con 30 has 310 HP. And it doesnt matter, because both of them will get their ***** kicked in by ubercharging giants or monsters...

At level 20 I would expect characters to be immune to damage by virtue of Starmantle cloak and ring of evasion!

[GuestEleven]

If you're playing Pathfinder, remember that HP retraining is a thing. With a little downtime and some money for a trainer, you can increase your max HP up to what you would have had from rolling max values on all your hit dice.

Pathfinder also lets you gain +1 HP per level from your favored class bonus. If your race / class combo doesn't have any good additional options for favored class benefit, it's only really costing you 1 skill point per level.

If you're going to port 3.5 material to Pathfinder for extra HP, Necropolitan would be pretty good. In Pathfinder, the undead type gives +Cha*level HP.

The problem with elf is that, in both 3.5 and Pathfinder, most characters don't care too much about Dexterity. And Constitution is a nice to have for everyone. So there are very few characters for which elf is tempting.

Dex is a generally inferior stat to Str for melee. Ranged tends to be a worse combat style than melee. And for purposes of AC, you only care about having enough Dex to fill out your armor's max Dex bonus.

Most classes designed to wade into melee have heavy armor proficiency, so you don't need much Dex for AC. Most classes that need a non-trivial Dex bonus to max out their AC aren't designed to wade into melee. So Dex-y melee winds up being pretty niche.

And then, to actually use Dex for attacks, you need to spend a feat, which still doesn't give you Dex to damage. By the time you've gotten Dex to attack and damage, you've invested quite a bit of resources, and really only made Dex do what Str does out of the box.

At least Pathfinder gives Fighters a built-in way to boost max Dex of armor. And the Agile weapon special ability exists. So there's more of a case to be made there. I'd still prefer trading Armor Mastery for something cool, spending that +1 weapon enhancement on something else, and doing a Strength-based build though.

That is why with my build I'm getting a little weird with it. Champion of Correllon allows you to add dex to damage in addition to your strength, then I'm picking up Elven Battle Focus from PF to substitute my strength bonus to damage with intelligence. Champion of Corellon mixed with PF Fighter's armor training, heavy armor optimization + greater heavy armor optimization is going to make my mithral full plate's ACP nonexistent and the max dex bonus pretty dang decent.

[Kurald Galain]

That is why with my build I'm getting a little weird with it. Champion of Correllon allows you to add dex to damage in addition to your strength, then I'm picking up Elven Battle Focus from PF to substitute my strength bonus to damage with intelligence.
Elven Battle Focus adds your int bonus instead of any other ability bonus, so it doesn't stack with dex to damage.

[GuestEleven]

Elven Battle Focus adds your int bonus instead of any other ability bonus, so it doesn't stack with dex to damage.

Elegant strike states "You apply your Dexterity bonus as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any Strength bonus you may have)". So RAW I would say you're right, but RAI my DM has already green lighted the combination.

[ShurikVch]

For hit points, Masters of the Wild has several feats which give more hp than simple Toughness:
Dwarf's Toughness - 6 hp; required Fort +5 (thus, Fighter 6+);
Giant's Toughness - 9 hp; required Fort +8 (thus, Fighter 12+);
Dragon's Toughness - 12 hp; required Fort +11 (thus, Fighter 18+).
All of those feats could be taken repeatedly.

For the Fort save penalty - take the Strong Soul feat: +1 on Fort and Will saves (or +3 - vs death effects, energy drain, or ability drain)

[Maat Mons]

I'm not sure how Mage armor is supposed to give you better AC than heavy armor.

At low levels, you'd have regular full plate for 10 (base) + 9 (armor) + 1 (Dex) = 20 AC before miscellaneous bonuses. You'd need a +6 Dexterity modifier to match that with Mage Armor.

At high levels, you'd have +5 mithril full plate for 10 (base) + 14 (armor) + 3 (Dex) = 27 AC before miscellaneous bonuses. You'd need a +13 Dexterity modifier to match that with Mage Armor.

[Melcar]

I'm not sure how Mage armor is supposed to give you better AC than heavy armor.

At low levels, you'd have regular full plate for 10 (base) + 9 (armor) + 1 (Dex) = 20 AC before miscellaneous bonuses. You'd need a +6 Dexterity modifier to match that with Mage Armor.

At high levels, you'd have +5 mithril full plate for 10 (base) + 14 (armor) + 3 (Dex) = 27 AC before miscellaneous bonuses. You'd need a +13 Dexterity modifier to match that with Mage Armor.

Just cast Luminous Armor or Greater Luminous Armor

Also when going fullplate, remember to have et reinforced and segmented for +1 AC and 1 max dex mod. This is mundane crafting, so it stacks wiht what ever enchantment you put on there!

You can also add shield and Protections from X for even more AC... And Bite of the Wererat

[Metastachydium]

Seeing a lot of people say just pick a different elf subrace. While obviously a mechanically sound decision that isn't how I roll. High elves are my favorite and I'm not about to dumpster them like that.

(You can tack the Arctic templateDraMag306 on a high elf then, to end up with the same adjustments as a snow elf (CHA penalty instead of CON penalty).)

[Elves]

That depends entirely on how much you start with. 1 extra hp/HD is quite the increase when you're starting with a d4 after all.

If I have 1 cent, gaining 1 cent doubles my net worth. But it's still an insignificant increase if things cost a dollar or more.

Regardless of how many hp you start with, what the hp increase is being compared to is level-appropriate damage, vs. which it won't change your survivability. Basics of minmaxing -- you're better off investing in other defenses like miss chance or starmantle than in an axis you can't compete on anyway.


The raw +% hp (+2 con is +~18% for a sorcerer with 10 base con and +6 con item, +15% with 12 base con, etc) is misleading because you have to process it through your other defenses (AC, miss chance, etc) as well as the frequency with which it will make a difference vs. level appropriate damage.


But where I agree w you is that one of the oddest misunderstandings is the idea that "elves don't make good warriors because they have a con penalty". On the contrary the con penalty is proportionally less significant if you have a higher HD and a good Fort save. (Counterpoint is that from a minmax standpoint, higher HD gives you a baseline of competence that makes increasing that competence more meaningful than if you're a glass cannon anyway.)

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not sure how Mage armor is supposed to give you better AC than heavy armor.
The easiest way is by stacking it with wis-to-unarmored-AC, or a few variants that give cha or int to unarmored AC. It's not all that hard to have, say, +4 dex and +3 wis at low level, or +8 dex and +6 wis at high level.

[spectralphoenix]

Sorry to say, but you are wrong my friend. Nothing in the feat says you have to perform the ritual every morning or keep your companion on tap, just that the effect lasts until you perform another ritual for one of the other effects. Running it RAW you could realistically do the ritual for the Passions once and never see them again, keeping the effect permanently.

Fair enough, I admit I skimmed past all the "full night's rest" boilerplate.

I'm still kind of uncertain about the utility of this for a character who doesn't otherwise have a use for intelligence, though. It's very powerful (maybe too powerful) for a Wizard who's going to optimize INT anyway. But compare these two fighters -

One takes 16 CON and 7 INT, applies racial modifiers and gets 14/9. Then he takes Toughness and ends up with +3 hit points/level for 6 ability score points

One takes 14 INT and 12 CON, 16/10 after mods and takes FMI. He gets the same +3 hit points/level for 7 ability score points, and trades 2 points of Fort save bonus for some skill ranks.

I'm not saying FMI is unviable here, but unless you come up with a whole build focused around adding INT to things (which it sounds like you're working on, so good job!) it isn't really that much better than just focusing on the fighter's traditional strengths and eating the penalty.

[Maat Mons]

So, attaining this higher AC which is a benefit of being a Dex-based fighter requires yet more investment above and beyond what you already had to invest just to become a functional Dex-based fighter.

The Pathfinder version of Monk's Belt doesn't give Wis to AC, so if that's what you're playing, you're going to need to work it into your class progression, not just buy an item. These abilities are keyed off of a mental ability score, so you need to spend resources boosting a stat that isn't otherwise useful for a melee character.

Isn't the benefit of switching attack and damage to Dexterity supposed to be that you consolidate multiple things onto a single ability score? Adding another attribute dependence seems to undermine the benefits of removing your Strength dependence.

Now, if you're making a gish, adding your casting stat to AC is pretty cool. But for a straight mundane? I feel like you'd need to either be using a generous stat-generation system, or be getting on to pretty high levels where you're capped out on items that boost your primary stat.

Anyway, I'm not saying Dexy fighters can't eventually bloom into something useful. I am saying it seems like more trouble than it's worth.

Also, I'm not all that enthused by mundane builds that don't get good, relative to other mundanes, until the point when mundanes are really starting to fall off, relative to casters. It's why I prize Str-based fighters' ability to work out of the box, and leave you some resources to play around with in the levels where mundanes are still kind of a fun choice.

[pabelfly]

I feel like dex martial builds are only worth the effort when you have Multiweapon Fighting, and generally too much effort for the payoff when you don't. Unlesss you really want that character flavour, which I can understand.

[Kurald Galain]

I feel like dex martial builds are only worth the effort when you have Multiweapon Fighting, and generally too much effort for the payoff when you don't.

Where's the effort, though? You spend one feat (weapon finesse, although several classes get it for free), and one item (Agile weapon enchantment, and rogues get that one for free too) and you're done.

Bam! Almost zero effort, and suddenly you have great initiative, reflex saves, no movement reduction, good acrobatics / escape artist / stealth skills, no armor check penalty, and pretty good AC. And that works with any melee class regardless of their armor proficiency, and there's various ways to boost all of that if you want to put in a little more effort. It should be no surprise that such builds are very popular.

[pabelfly]

Where's the effort, though? You spend one feat (weapon finesse, although several classes get it for free), and one item (Agile weapon enchantment, and rogues get that one for free too) and you're done.

Bam! Almost zero effort, and suddenly you have great initiative, reflex saves, no movement reduction, good acrobatics / escape artist / stealth skills, no armor check penalty, and pretty good AC. And that works with any melee class regardless of their armor proficiency, and there's various ways to boost all of that if you want to put in a little more effort. It should be no surprise that such builds are very popular.

Sorry, thought this was in relation to 3.5 rather than Pathfinder.