Could Xykon Have Turned Himself Into A Demi-Lich?

[Carl]

Whilst digging through entries trying to figure out everyone's favourite friend-shaped shadow i read through the Demi-Lich entry again. Suddenly occurs to me that given his lack of trust in Redcloak turning himself into a Demi-Lich would offer him extra insurance. Demi-Lichs are also known for loving to trap souls in gems, somthing Xykon likes too.

I don't think it would be somthing thats been true since the start, probably if it happened it's during his whole Astral Fortress thing, though i'd bet on his gems being elsewhere.

Now obviously he doesn't look like a Demi-Lich atm, but given he'd be doing it as an insurance there's no reason he couldn't have put the gem encrusted bone somwhere safe, replaced the relevant bone on his actual skeleton and then be controlling his old body, (the gem encrusted bone is his body now FYI), from wherever his real body is safely stashed.

Does raise the point, why did Thor say the fortress probably wouldn't matter, (most likely place for his real form to be), but i think the answer there could just be misdirection. I think if we see Xykon go down quickly he'll turn out to be a Demi-Lich and it will be a Godsmoot situation vis a vis Krageor's Tomb.

Thoughts?

[Peelee]

Whilst digging through entries trying to figure out everyone's favourite friend-shaped shadow i read through the Demi-Lich entry again. Suddenly occurs to me that given his lack of trust in Redcloak turning himself into a Demi-Lich would offer him extra insurance. Demi-Lichs are also known for loving to trap souls in gems, somthing Xykon likes too.

I don't think it would be somthing thats been true since the start, probably if it happened it's during his whole Astral Fortress thing, though i'd bet on his gems being elsewhere.

Now obviously he doesn't look like a Demi-Lich atm, but given he'd be doing it as an insurance there's no reason he couldn't have put the gem encrusted bone somwhere safe, replaced the relevant bone on his actual skeleton and then be controlling his old body, (the gem encrusted bone is his body now FYI), from wherever his real body is safely stashed.

Does raise the point, why did Thor say the fortress probably wouldn't matter, (most likely place for his real form to be), but i think the answer there could just be misdirection. I think if we see Xykon go down quickly he'll turn out to be a Demi-Lich and it will be a Godsmoot situation vis a vis Krageor's Tomb.

Thoughts?
The fortress doesn't matter because his phylactery isn't in the fortress.

That aside, there's no narrative gain from him being a demilich other than a cheap twist for the sake of being a twist.

[Fyraltari]

it will be a Godsmoot situation vis a vis Krageor's Tomb.

What do you mean by that?

[Dame_Mechanus]

The fortress doesn't matter because his phylactery isn't in the fortress.

It seems relatively obvious to me that it's going to matter and the Order is going to have to go through there at some point because otherwise it'd be weird to devote narrative space to claiming it existed when there's no narrative utility to it whatsoever. But it doesn't seem to me like Xykon would somehow evolve into a demi-lich offscreen. Like... there are other ways for a secret astral fortress to come up, you know?

[hroþila]

It seems relatively obvious to me that it's going to matter and the Order is going to have to go through there at some point because otherwise it'd be weird to devote narrative space to claiming it existed when there's no narrative utility to it whatsoever. But it doesn't seem to me like Xykon would somehow evolve into a demi-lich offscreen. Like... there are other ways for a secret astral fortress to come up, you know?
The narrative utility is that it illustrates what Xykon is doing about his distrust towards Redcloak, and that no, he's not letting Redcloak keep his phylactery.

[Dame_Mechanus]

The narrative utility is that it illustrates what Xykon is doing about his distrust towards Redcloak, and that no, he's not letting Redcloak keep his phylactery.

Sure, but you don't cast Chekov's Create Fortress-Tomb-Thingie With A Hundred Spells And Traps And Whatever That Magically Alerts You If Anyone Finds It Or Tries To Gain Entrance if you don't expect anyone to find it or try to gain entrance. Even if it doesn't have an actual phylactery hidden within it like he thinks.

Well, all right, you can, but it doesn't feel like a high-fitness bet to me.

[Fyraltari]

The narrative utility is that it illustrates what Xykon is doing about his distrust towards Redcloak, and that no, he's not letting Redcloak keep his phylactery.

It allowd for Redcloak to create Gobbotopia behind his back (panel 13 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html)).

Also, I can't find the exact quote right now, but I remember The Giant stating he finds Conservation of Details overrated.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Also, I can't find the exact quote right now, but I remember The Giant stating he finds Conservation of Details overrated.

Yep, he's definitely mentioned that when specifically talking about the two spellcasters who ported in to bring the Oracle back to life. They have a boss and they have a pre-existing relationship with the Oracle, but he pointed out that none of this is going to tie directly into the story.

That being said, I think there's a difference between "two unnamed minor characters having a past history that is not relevant to the story beyond offhanded mentions" and "a major thing that was brought up and then was mentioned again years later just in case you had forgotten about it tied directly to one of the principal antagonists of the story." That could just be me.

[Fyraltari]

That being said, I think there's a difference between "two unnamed minor characters having a past history that is not relevant to the story beyond offhanded mentions" and "a major thing that was brought up and then was mentioned again years later just in case you had forgotten about it tied directly to one of the principal antagonists of the story." That could just be me.

I believe you mean "a minor thing that wasn't brought up for years until a random joke poking fun at the fandom's habit of making wild guesses based on not much."

[Dame_Mechanus]

I believe you mean "a minor thing that wasn't brought up for years until a random joke poking fun at the fandom's habit of making wild guesses based on not much."

That's one interpretation, yes.

Mind you, this isn't me predicting that it's definitely going to be The Very Definite Final Dungeon or anything; there are a lot of dots to connect there, and right now there's nothing connecting it. I would not feel somehow cheated if it just didn't come up again. Just a lot of subtle things make me think that this is going to play some role before everything is over, especially with the snarky title of the strip wherein Thor mentions it.

But to get back to the topic under discussion, I most certainly do not think it's Xykon's Hidden Demi-Lich Hideout. That's a bridge too far.

[Peelee]

Sure, but you don't cast Chekov's Create Fortress-Tomb-Thingie With A Hundred Spells And Traps And Whatever That Magically Alerts You If Anyone Finds It Or Tries To Gain Entrance if you don't expect anyone to find it or try to gain entrance. Even if it doesn't have an actual phylactery hidden within it like he thinks.

Well, all right, you can, but it doesn't feel like a high-fitness bet to me.

Sure you do, if the author thinks conservation of detail is overrated.

Barely any time was spent on it. Just that it exists. Why it exists narratively is to establish that Xykon has stopped trusting Redcloak and that Redcloak has passed the point of no return. Going to the fortress would be nothing but a dungeon crawl - good for final level of a video game, bad for a final chapter of a story, especially since there's nothing they actually need to go to the fortress for.

[Carl]

What do you mean by that?

The Godsmoot was a big place where beforehand we fully expected some big climactic thing to go down, but in the sense of the book it was part of it was merely the midpoint of the arc.


The fortress doesn't matter because his phylactery isn't in the fortress.

That aside, there's no narrative gain from him being a demilich other than a cheap twist for the sake of being a twist.

I disagree, Sort of. I agree him being a demi-lich and thats it would be a cheap twist. But right now things between Team Evil and OOTS can't be far from coming to a head yet the books not exactly reaching a decent length. Now of course some twist may very well come in and throw a kink in that. But what if it doesn't. Xykon goes down, his Phylactery goes down, (pretty much has to as RC can't really let him come back), RC goes down or fixes the gates situation, Fiends play they're card. Whats left to do. Maybe if RC doesn't survive/co-operate there's fixing the gates, (and whatever's going on with the world inside the rifts). But it feels like this book could be finished up super quick right now. Having Xykon appear dead but not actually be dead whilst whatever seeming epilogue is going on offers an interesting twist.

[The MunchKING]

It seems relatively obvious to me that it's going to matter and the Order is going to have to go through there at some point because otherwise it'd be weird to devote narrative space to claiming it existed when there's no narrative utility to it whatsoever.

Also Thor DID explicitly say Durkon would go there.

EDIT: Nope, He just said Durkon would hear about it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1137.html). And the title of the strip is "But that probably won't come up", so take it for what you will.

[Peelee]

Also Thor DID explicitly say Durkon would go there.

EDIT: Nope, He just said Durkon would hear about it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1137.html). And the title of the strip is "But that probably won't come up", so take it for what you will.

He didn't even say Durkon would hear about it later. He said if Durkon heard about it later.

Anyway, the fortress itself was in a single panel (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) and their jaunt to it helped let the author have them arrive at Girard's Gate when he wanted them to, as they were off panel the entire time and didn't need to interrupt the pacing with suddenly finding the pbylactery in the middle of everything going down at the Gate.

It has already served more than enough narrative purpose fulfilled already, and the only use its gotten afterwards has been an end-of-strip punchline.

[dancrilis]

Could Xykon have - sure.
Should Xykon have - yes.

Will Xykon have - I very much doubt it.

Demi-Liches in 3.5 are almost off the charts powerful (if one remembers their abilities at least), in the story that is being told Xykon does not need the power boost.

[brian 333]

Part of the schtick about demiliches is that they have stopped caring about the world, and have created an emergency backup plan in case their new adventures go awry. Xykon is still very much invested in this world. He's not off on some jaunt to bizarre other realms where we limited mortals dare not follow. His phylactery is, so far as he knows, safely hidden where no one can get to it. Why create a perfect backup plan for a perfect backup plan?

[JennTora]

I doubt Xykon would have the patience to read up on how to become a demi lich, assuming it's even written down anywhere. He didn't even know what a lich was until redcloak told him.

Maybe he could figure it out himself, I mean, doesn't sound like his thing, but it could've been motivated by Soon threatening his phylactery back in Azure city. He might've decided he needs more than one. But his motivation with the astral fortress seems to be more about protecting the one he already has.

And like dancrilis said, he really doesn't need the power boost. He's already to the point where even gaining an experience point from a battle is something rare to be celebrated.

[Darth Paul]

Sure, but you don't cast Chekov's Create Fortress-Tomb-Thingie With A Hundred Spells And Traps And Whatever That Magically Alerts You If Anyone Finds It Or Tries To Gain Entrance if you don't expect anyone to find it or try to gain entrance. Even if it doesn't have an actual phylactery hidden within it like he thinks.

Well, all right, you can, but it doesn't feel like a high-fitness bet to me.

But Xykon does expect people to try to find it, because (he thinks) he hid his phylactery there, and at some point he expects someone to try and find it.

We know Xykon's wrong, however. He hid the fake phylactery there. So there's no story reason for anyone to go there. A), the Order of the Stick don't know in the first place that he hid anything there. B), neither does anyone else other than Redcloak, who knows where the real thing is. C), the only other person to have been there and can possibly have heard Xykon say he was stashing it there is the MitD. Does MitD have a reason to go there, or reveal it to anyone else?

I can't come up with a scenario where it comes up that anyone actually goes to the astral fortress.

[Finagle]

I'm pretty sure a lich needs his phylactery to turn himself into a demi-lich.

And Xykon ain't getting his back, ever.

[Carl]

Could Xykon have - sure.
Should Xykon have - yes.

Will Xykon have - I very much doubt it.

Demi-Liches in 3.5 are almost off the charts powerful (if one remembers their abilities at least), in the story that is being told Xykon does not need the power boost.

The extra power level is absolutely the strongest argument against it.


Part of the schtick about demiliches is that they have stopped caring about the world, and have created an emergency backup plan in case their new adventures go awry. Xykon is still very much invested in this world. He's not off on some jaunt to bizarre other realms where we limited mortals dare not follow. His phylactery is, so far as he knows, safely hidden where no one can get to it. Why create a perfect backup plan for a perfect backup plan?

Thats for allready existing lichs though, it doesn't really describe how a Demi-Lich gets to that state, and given Xykons near perpetual state of bordem he might well have decided to do exactly that if it wasn't for the deal with the gates.

As far ass the astral fortress being a perfect backup plan, bear in mind he's clearly getting more distrustful of RC, if he's concerned he needs an astral fortress to protect it it's not a stretch to be concerned that RC would give him a fake he couldn't easily see was a fake and take precautions against it.


I doubt Xykon would have the patience to read up on how to become a demi lich, assuming it's even written down anywhere. He didn't even know what a lich was until redcloak told him.

Maybe he could figure it out himself, I mean, doesn't sound like his thing, but it could've been motivated by Soon threatening his phylactery back in Azure city. He might've decided he needs more than one. But his motivation with the astral fortress seems to be more about protecting the one he already has.

And like dancrilis said, he really doesn't need the power boost. He's already to the point where even gaining an experience point from a battle is something rare to be celebrated.

Patience to read up on how to become a Demi-Lich on the random. Nah i agree he's not going to do that. But if he's looking for a way to have more Phylactery's i could see him coming across a mention of demi-Lich's and taking the time then. Xykon can be incredibly focused so long as he thinks it benefits him. It''s when he's no immediate goal and he's bored that he gets super random.


I'm pretty sure a lich needs his phylactery to turn himself into a demi-lich.

And Xykon ain't getting his back, ever.

Not according to the SRD entry on creating a Demi-Lich. He just need to be 21st level in an appropriate spell-casting class, have the "Create Wondrous Item" feat, and spend a bunch of gold and XP.

[InvisibleBison]

I don't think there's been enough time for Xykon to have made himself into a demilich. It takes 960 days to craft the soul gems, and it hasn't been that long since the last time we saw Xykon be affected by a magical effect to which a demilich would be immune. There are ways to speed up crafting, but we don't know whether Xykon has any of them, and even if he does I think there still hasn't been enough time for him to have crafted the soul gems.

[Darth Paul]

if he's concerned he needs an astral fortress to protect it it's not a stretch to be concerned that RC would give him a fake he couldn't easily see was a fake and take precautions against it.


And yet, he wound up with the fake (barring some incredible reveal about Xykon somehow detecting the ruse and swapping it out without RC ever realizing).

My take on Xykon-Redcloak is that Xykon believes Redcloak is more throughly cowed than ever, after the loss of his eye and would never dare oppose him now... beyond biting witticisms.

[Faldrath]

Sure, but you don't cast Chekov's Create Fortress-Tomb-Thingie With A Hundred Spells And Traps And Whatever That Magically Alerts You If Anyone Finds It Or Tries To Gain Entrance if you don't expect anyone to find it or try to gain entrance. Even if it doesn't have an actual phylactery hidden within it like he thinks.


I wonder, the gods can't act directly on the Prime world the Order is in, but nothing says that they can't act on the Astral Plane, right? Could Thor or someone else try to help the Order by, say, casually taking a holiday on the Astral Plane and noticing a weird building there and deciding to check it out? Just enough checking it out to distract a certain lich who might be almost managing to wipe out the main opposition to his plans?

[The MunchKING]

I wonder, the gods can't act directly on the Prime world the Order is in, but nothing says that they can't act on the Astral Plane, right? Could Thor or someone else try to help the Order by, say, casually taking a holiday on the Astral Plane and noticing a weird building there and deciding to check it out? Just enough checking it out to distract a certain lich who might be almost managing to wipe out the main opposition to his plans?

I'm pretty sure they aren't allowed to mess with mortals, no matter what plane they are on, outside of very strict agreed upon Rules (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1146.html). Now arranging for someone ELSE mortal to be vacationing there (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1106.html) and take on Xykon's superfortress would be a bit of a trick, but theoretically allowable.

[Ruck]

But Xykon does expect people to try to find it, because (he thinks) he hid his phylactery there, and at some point he expects someone to try and find it.

We know Xykon's wrong, however. He hid the fake phylactery there. So there's no story reason for anyone to go there. A), the Order of the Stick don't know in the first place that he hid anything there. B), neither does anyone else other than Redcloak, who knows where the real thing is. C), the only other person to have been there and can possibly have heard Xykon say he was stashing it there is the MitD. Does MitD have a reason to go there, or reveal it to anyone else?

I can't come up with a scenario where it comes up that anyone actually goes to the astral fortress.

Yeah, this is pretty much where I stand on it, with the bolded emphasis mine as the summary.

Xykon thinks his phylactery is hidden there, but he has no reason to go back there, and the only way I can imagine the Order going there is to chase after Xykon. The only reason Xykon would return to his fortress is if his body is destroyed and he respawns there... but since we know Redcloak has the real phylactery, that won't happen, either.

[brian 333]

Yeah, this is pretty much where I stand on it, with the bolded emphasis mine as the summary.

Xykon thinks his phylactery is hidden there, but he has no reason to go back there, and the only way I can imagine the Order going there is to chase after Xykon. The only reason Xykon would return to his fortress is if his body is destroyed and he respawns there... but since we know Redcloak has the real phylactery, that won't happen, either.

Unless Redcloak retreats there to trick destroyed Xykon into thinking he was there all along.

[Peelee]

Unless Redcloak retreats there to trick destroyed Xykon into thinking he was there all along.

Redcloak can't "retreat" there any more than the Order can. Ignoring the fact that Xykon appears immediately in the phylactery (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html) and Reddie wouldn't have time anyway.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Redcloak can't "retreat" there any more than the Order can. Ignoring the fact that Xykon appears immediately in the phylactery (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html) and Reddie wouldn't have time anyway.

Also, it would entirely subvert the point of him having a duplicate made of the phylactery; the whole reason for that is for Xykon to think he has his actual phylactery stashed somewhere while Redcloak still secretly has it. Even if you assume Redcloak had some sort of "nope, still on your side" plan if this latest Gate goes krakoom, there would be no more Gates to actually try the plan on.

[dancrilis]

Redcloak can't "retreat" there any more than the Order can. Ignoring the fact that Xykon appears immediately in the phylactery (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html) and Reddie wouldn't have time anyway.

Assuming that Xykon is not destroyed but the fight is going against them then Redcloak could gate himself over and drop the phylactery off and step back (assuming he has the phylactery on him and assuming that he didn't give Xykon the real one in the first place).

[Ruck]

Assuming that Xykon is not destroyed but the fight is going against them then Redcloak could gate himself over and drop the phylactery off and step back

Oh? In the middle of the fight Redcloak is just going to tell Xykon "hang on, have to Gate out of here for no reason at all, just hold down the fort against the Order until I get back"?


(assuming he has the phylactery on him and assuming that he didn't give Xykon the real one in the first place).

Assuming? Not only did we directly see him make the switch in the text, but nothing about making a duplicate makes any sense if Redcloak is just going to give the real one to Xykon.

[Peelee]

Assuming that Xykon is not destroyed but the fight is going against them then Redcloak could gate himself over and drop the phylactery off and step back (assuming he has the phylactery on him and assuming that he didn't give Xykon the real one in the first place).

He can just Gate over to the middle of the murder fortress to place the phylactery in? Kind of defeats the entire purpose of a murder fortress if it's so trivial to get to the phylactery room, ain't it? Unless you think Xykon put the phylactery on the doorstep, which would also defeat the entire purpose of a murder fortress.

I suppose one could claim that Xykon took Redcloak into the fortress with him so Redcloak would know all the traps and spells and defenses and exactly where the phylactery is and would be able to basically teleport directly there on any moments whim, since Gate does allow precise travel, but that kind of defeats the entire purpose of not trusting Redcloak with the phylactery and putting in a murder fortress.

Why, would you imagine that. All roads in this idea defeat the entire purpose of the murder fortress.

[Carl]

I don't think there's been enough time for Xykon to have made himself into a demilich. It takes 960 days to craft the soul gems, and it hasn't been that long since the last time we saw Xykon be affected by a magical effect to which a demilich would be immune. There are ways to speed up crafting, but we don't know whether Xykon has any of them, and even if he does I think there still hasn't been enough time for him to have crafted the soul gems.

This is a good counterargument, hadn't considered the time requierment of somthing that expensive. Though depending on when Xykon started this and how recognisable the gems are, (and how lenient the creation rules are on when they have to go on the original bone), it's theoretically possibble, but i agree where getting real improbable.


And yet, he wound up with the fake (barring some incredible reveal about Xykon somehow detecting the ruse and swapping it out without RC ever realizing).

My take on Xykon-Redcloak is that Xykon believes Redcloak is more throughly cowed than ever, after the loss of his eye and would never dare oppose him now... beyond biting witticisms.

The whole point of the Demi-Lich speculation is that Xykon's seen through RC's keeping the Phylactery but still needs him enough not to confront him over it and so is taking appropriate precautions. His only alternative would be offing RC then and there and giving up on the plan altogether.


Yeah, this is pretty much where I stand on it, with the bolded emphasis mine as the summary.

Xykon thinks his phylactery is hidden there, but he has no reason to go back there, and the only way I can imagine the Order going there is to chase after Xykon. The only reason Xykon would return to his fortress is if his body is destroyed and he respawns there... but since we know Redcloak has the real phylactery, that won't happen, either.

The scenario i was imagining ran somthing like this:

Big Climactic fight scene starts, and ends, Xykon is down, RC cowed MitD just sort of hanging around, (maybe even turned on Xykon by that point), at which point it's revealed RC is betraying Xykon. MitD's spell thing from SoD goes off and is probably disarmed by O-Chul getting between MitD and RC. Fiends act when everyone's guard is down and everyone's low on spells dropping their Artefact and whatever else in.

Order deals with all that with RC and MitD's help. But the artefact is still going, and V and Durkon are out of spells to do anything about it forcing RC to have to throw something, (probably somthing he was saving for the Phylactery), and the backlash from taking out a genuine artefact dusts him beyond resurrection.

Order now wanders off to try to find someone else to take RC's place in fixing the gates, (Probably to Gobotopia), likely taking care of the Phylactery the following day, (with Xykon acting all fake scared from within it). Meanwhile Xykons Demi-Lich real form heads from where he stashed it to his astral fortress. Then at an appropriate moment, (probably when they get back to fix Krageor's tomb rift), turns up to go after the Order again, (possibly also trying to break the last gate out of sheer spite, especially if he's found out the ritual was a bust all along). At that point somone's going to put 2 and 2 together and realise he has to have become a Demi-Lich. Durkon remembers the Astral Fortress comment and they're forced to track him down there. Another big climactic fight. End of comic afterwards.

[Peelee]

The scenario i was imagining ran somthing like this:

Big Climactic fight scene starts, and ends, Xykon is down, RC cowed MitD just sort of hanging around, (maybe even turned on Xykon by that point), at which point it's revealed RC is betraying Xykon. MitD's spell thing from SoD goes off and is probably disarmed by O-Chul getting between MitD and RC. Fiends act when everyone's guard is down and everyone's low on spells dropping their Artefact and whatever else in.

Order deals with all that with RC and MitD's help. But the artefact is still going, and V and Durkon are out of spells to do anything about it forcing RC to have to throw something, (probably somthing he was saving for the Phylactery), and the backlash from taking out a genuine artefact dusts him beyond resurrection.

Order now wanders off to try to find someone else to take RC's place in fixing the gates, (Probably to Gobotopia), likely taking care of the Phylactery the following day, (with Xykon acting all fake scared from within it). Meanwhile Xykons Demi-Lich real form heads from where he stashed it to his astral fortress. Then at an appropriate moment, (probably when they get back to fix Krageor's tomb rift), turns up to go after the Order again, (possibly also trying to break the last gate out of sheer spite, especially if he's found out the ritual was a bust all along). At that point somone's going to put 2 and 2 together and realise he has to have become a Demi-Lich. Durkon remembers the Astral Fortress comment and they're forced to track him down there. Another big climactic fight. End of comic afterwards.

There's no reason for Xykon to pretend to be in the phylactery (if he even could), and there's no reason for him to hide in the fortress. And even if he could, it's on an infinite plane.

Think of it this way. You know about where I live. Birmingham, AL is not an infinite plane. It's pretty small, geographically speaking. You know I have a house. Think you could find it? Now imagine instead of being in in Birmingham, it's somewhere in the solar system. Which is unfathomably bigger.

And, to misquote Douglas Adams, that's just peanuts compared to an infinite plane.

[The MunchKING]

Think of it this way. You know about where I live. Birmingham, AL is not an infinite plane. It's pretty small, geographically speaking. You know I have a house. Think you could find it?

Impulse could. :smallbiggrin:

Impulse DID basically do that.

SO yeah, the answer to finding Xykon's fortress is just "more power". :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

Impulse could. :smallbiggrin:

Impulse DID basically do that.

SO yeah, the answer to finding Xykon's fortress is just "more power". :smalltongue:

Cool. Is Redcloak or the Order Impulse/does Redcloak or the Order have Impulse?

I may not know what Impulse is, but I feel like the point remains.

[dancrilis]

Oh? In the middle of the fight Redcloak is just going to tell Xykon "hang on, have to Gate out of here for no reason at all, just hold down the fort against the Order until I get back"?

Redcloak has been known to disappear in fights before - and if he and Xykon are both destroyed and the Order get the cloak he might be able to claim that the plan would be shot so it was tactically sound to run given that Xykon was in no long term danger.



Assuming? Not only did we directly see him make the switch in the text, but nothing about making a duplicate makes any sense if Redcloak is just going to give the real one to Xykon.

O-Chul knows about the phylactery and tried to destory it once, and had escaped to tell others about it - creating a duplicate to fool other people is not unreasonable (and doesn't risk the Plan).



I suppose one could claim that Xykon took Redcloak into the fortress with him so Redcloak would know all the traps and spells and defenses and exactly where the phylactery is and would be able to basically teleport directly there on any moments whim, since Gate does allow precise travel, but that kind of defeats the entire purpose of not trusting Redcloak with the phylactery and putting in a murder fortress.


The best defence that the fortress has is people don't know where it is - if Xykon was worried about Team Evil betraying him he could have just murdered Redcloak (and possible the Monster) while on the astral plane to prevent them from talking and then given the cloak to the next goblin he saw.

Taking the phylactery from Redcloak implies that Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak with it - but whether that is a lack of trust at Redcloak competance or at his loyalty is unknown (that Redcloak is still alive implies that it is about his competance).

[The MunchKING]

Cool. Is Redcloak or the Order Impulse/does Redcloak or the Order have Impulse?

I may not know what Impulse is, but I feel like the point remains.

No, but the metaphor remains. What the Order DOES know about is Epic Inside (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html), presumably the other planes have something similar.

Impulse in this context is a DC superspeedster guy (https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Bart_Allen_(Prime_Earth)). He once searched all of Birmingham for a bomb that a bad guy put there and found the other two that were going to be the NEXT challenge while he was doing that.

[Fyraltari]

No, but the metaphor remains. What the Order DOES know about is Epic Inside (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html), presumably the other planes have something similar.

Impulse in this context is a DC superspeedster guy (https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Bart_Allen_(Prime_Earth)). He once searched all of Birmingham for a bomb that a bad guy put there and found the other two that were going to be the NEXT challenge while he was doing that.

Are you suggesting they kill Vaarsuvius, have V use Scrying from the cloudplane and then bring V back?

I guess getting a uberpowerful scry effect at the cost of two spell slots and a diamond isn't the most outrageous "cheat" in the game.

[The MunchKING]

Are you suggesting they kill Vaarsuvius, have V use Scrying from the cloudplane and then bring V back?

No, I was thinking Plane Shift (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html). You'd need someone other than V to cast it, of course, but you save yourself a bunch of diamonds and a few levels.

[Ruck]

Redcloak has been known to disappear in fights before

Are you referring to when he uses Word of Recall after O-Chul attacks? A surprise one-on-one attack where his holy symbol is taken is very different than Team Evil engaging the Order in direct combat.


- and if he and Xykon are both destroyed and the Order get the cloak he might be able to claim that the plan would be shot so it was tactically sound to run given that Xykon was in no long term danger.

If Xykon is destroyed, he's going to respawn from the real phylactery. It'll be too late for Redcloak to make any kind of switch. Your own argument contradicts your premise.


O-Chul knows about the phylactery and tried to destory it once, and had escaped to tell others about it - creating a duplicate to fool other people is not unreasonable (and doesn't risk the Plan).

I mean, you're basically saying that 831-832 are lying to the reader, that Redcloak talking in 830 about subtle methods of controlling Xykon was totally meaningless in terms of foreshadowing his very next action, and that Redcloak hid the creation of the fake phylactery from Xykon despite having no reason to do so if it was intended to fool the heroes.

[dancrilis]

Are you referring to when he uses Word of Recall after O-Chul attacks? A surprise one-on-one attack where his holy symbol is taken is very different than Team Evil engaging the Order in direct combat.

And after Xykon was destroyed in the initial dungeon - Redcloak has prioritised his life over continuing combat on occassion.



Your own argument contradicts your premise.

No it doesn't - if Xykon and Redcloak are destroyed it is bad for Team Evil, so (and I am unsure as to how that was unclear) he leaves before they are destroyed - he does not wait to be destroyed and then try to leave.

A scenario: Team Evil are on the ropes, Redcloak gates away, drops off the phylactery, Xykon gets destroyed and finds himself exactly where he is meant to be, when he queries Redcloak on why he left and Redcloak tells him that since Xykon would return anyway he had to ensure that they didn't lose the mantle or the plan would be ruined.



I mean, you're basically saying that 831-832 are lying to the reader
I suspect that Redcloak does have the real one (despite how bad a plan I think that is) - but nothing in those strips would be lying if he doesn't.

[Darth Paul]

I'm going to tackle these points in reverse order...



I suspect that Redcloak does have the real one (despite how bad a plan I think that is) - but nothing in those strips would be lying if he doesn't.

Setting aside whether secretly having the key to Xykon's unlife in his possession is a good plan from Redcloak's point of view- yes, yes it would.
RC hands a box over to Xykon, telling him he found his phylactery and as a bonus, put a new chain on it. The ONLY way this isn't the fake, which we saw in a handsome box with a chain next to the real thing on its broken chain, is if Redcloak... switched out the chain and kept the fake? And if we're speculating that this happened, then the strips are a huge "lie by omission" if nothing else.



A scenario: Team Evil are on the ropes, Redcloak gates away, drops off the phylactery, Xykon gets destroyed and finds himself exactly where he is meant to be, when he queries Redcloak on why he left and Redcloak tells him that since Xykon would return anyway he had to ensure that they didn't lose the mantle or the plan would be ruined.

The whole point of keeping the real phylactery is that, if Xykon's destroyed, Redcloak is now in charge. The days of "subtly manipulating" would be over, we would be in the "do as I say or get shattered and regrow over and over again." And if Redcloak is in this position, i.e. in charge, he has no reason to lie anymore. More likely he would boast about how Xykon fell for the fake-out.


And after Xykon was destroyed in the initial dungeon - Redcloak has prioritised his life over continuing combat on occassion.

... if Xykon and Redcloak are destroyed it is bad for Team Evil, so (and I am unsure as to how that was unclear) he leaves before they are destroyed - he does not wait to be destroyed and then try to leave.


Escaping from Dorukan's keep instead of fighting to the death just shows that Redcloak is a strategist. At that point, the Gate (what gate?) is lost to them, there's no chance of success there. But there are still 3 more gates to try. The Plan is not over. Redcloak needs Xykon's willing cooperation, so he puts on the show of subservience.

But now, if Xykon's destroyed, the Plan is basically doomed and all that's left is for Redcloak to take some form of revenge on Xykon for screwing things up (at least, that's how RC will see it, since "it's never my fault" is as big a part of his character as "sunk cost fallacy").

[dancrilis]

The whole point of keeping the real phylactery is that, if Xykon's destroyed, Redcloak is now in charge. The days of "subtly manipulating" would be over, we would be in the "do as I say or get shattered and regrow over and over again." And if Redcloak is in this position, i.e. in charge, he has no reason to lie anymore. More likely he would boast about how Xykon fell for the fake-out.
If Xykon is destroyed before they get the Gate then Redcloak has to decide whether to let him regenerate or not - if he does let him regenerate then their is a very real chance that Xykon will simply kill him afterwards, if he doesn't let him regenerate he needs a new arcane caster to complete the ritual after finding the Gate - a caster who will likely be less powerful then Xykon and so less useful for making interfering busybodies dead.



Escaping from Dorukan's keep instead of fighting to the death just shows that Redcloak is a strategist. At that point, the Gate (what gate?) is lost to them, there's no chance of success there.
The party fighter was down his weapon, the party wizard was paralyzed and they knew how the Gate was defended - I think that the high level cleric and the hungry monster (and the various goblins etc still active) could have won the fight - Redcloak however couldn't take the risk so he bolted, I don't fault him for that, if it looks like Xykon is going to be destroyed he should likely bolt again.



But now, if Xykon's destroyed, the Plan is basically doomed ...

Only because Redcloak decided to play with the phylactery - if Xykon was destroyed and was in his fortress, well wait a few days and come back to try the dungeons again, even if Redcloak was killed at the same time as Xykon was destroyed the Lich would likely seek to retrieve the cloak and give it to another goblin (or have Redcloak raised) and the Dark One's plan could continue.
Messing with the phylactery risks the Dark One's plan and as such I feel that messing with the phylactery is not a good plan for the High Priest of the Dark One.

[Mike Havran]

Messing with the phylactery risks the Dark One's plan and as such I feel that messing with the phylactery is not a good plan for the High Priest of the Dark One.I think Redcloak had good reasons for the swap:
1. He (correctly) assumed that Xykon is going to remove the phylactery from his grasp the moment it is found, and he will lose his best and probably the only chance of getting rid of him.
2. If the Plan worked and the Ritual would be completed, he needed to assume that as soon as Xykon learns that the Ritual did not work out for him, he will go on a complete genocide rampage against goblins and there will be no way of stopping it.
3. Gobbotopia was already capable of raising Browncloaks which are arcane casters. It was not specified how powerful the arcane partner has to be to perform the ritual (certainly non-epic), but should Xykon fall, there would eventually be a goblin alternative. And at that point of the story, Redcloak was confident he can afford to wait.

[Ruck]

And after Xykon was destroyed in the initial dungeon - Redcloak has prioritised his life over continuing combat on occassion.

Because, as Darth Paul said, Xykon was destroyed and they had three other Gates they could still track down. You're wildly misrepresenting what actually happened in order to draw false equivalences.


No it doesn't - if Xykon and Redcloak are destroyed it is bad for Team Evil, so (and I am unsure as to how that was unclear) he leaves before they are destroyed - he does not wait to be destroyed and then try to leave.

It was unclear because you said:


if he and Xykon are both destroyed


but nothing in those strips would be lying if he doesn't.

Sure, and what if the Snarl is actually Carrot Top's hair, and all of OOTS-world is just a prop for his latest Vegas residency show? I mean, nothing in the text says it can't be.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I guess if xykon was bored enough to look into the thing, sure.

Maybe he had jirix look into making another phylactory, assuming he was high level enough to make one, and able to do it to begin with.

The foreshadowing put into it would have to be something like the whispers on the astral plane alertign xykon some how, and found via scrying, and maybe jirix betraying RC, because he didn't know just how evil and ruthless xykon really was. idiot ball moment I guess. also xykon was bored and looking into making magic items, so making a new magic item in the likes of a new phylactory and getting aid on that after the real one was lost might make sense.



"I ripped my own flesh off to become a lich, so I wouldn't have to admit weakness, so I went to the trouble of becoming a multi phylactory demi lich to avoid the same fate! I figured you would betray me eventually, and now....my plan to erase you from history will come to fruition! oh, Monster in the darkness? eat Red cloak, and don't worry about spitting out my phylactory. its useless to me now. I have others."

I don't know what xykons real motivation is. and if I recall a sorcerer uses high charisma for spell casting, so...maybe his high charisma bluffed people into thinking he's stupid? he might have just pretending to be dumb and lazy, when in reality he isn't as forgetful as roy and co. think.

though, maybe RC is the real villain all along and xykon is in for a treat.

No need to reply to me I could easily be wrong.

[Fish]

It seems relatively obvious to me that it's going to matter and the Order is going to have to go through there at some point because otherwise it'd be weird to devote narrative space to claiming it existed when there's no narrative utility to it whatsoever.
The narrative utility is setting up the character’s expectations.

In True Grit, Mattie is constantly threatening to sue people through her lawyer, the redoubtable J Noble Daggett. She never does.

In The Maltese Falcon we are told that the black bird is worth a fortune. We never find it.

In Mad Max: Fury Road we are told Furiosa is escaping to The Green Place. It doesn’t exist.

It’s possible to devote narrative space to an idea that motivates one or more of the characters, without having to give that idea more than token screen time. Establishing the existence of Xykon’s murder fortress:
1. …explains the long delay in Team Evil moving on to the next target
2. …establishes a change in the relationship dynamic between Redcloak and Xykon
3. …foreshadows a conflict when Xykon’s expectations (the location of his soul hidey-place) are not met
4. …possibly foreshadows a place where they could move the final Gate to

I don’t see that it’s necessary to slog through the length and breadth of that dungeon just because we happened to hear about it.

[Darth Paul]

And, if we needed another reminder, Redcloak went to the trouble of making sure (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1263.html) Xykon hadn't even been in the room where the Goblin artisan was working on a copy of the phylactery. This is a definite clue that Xykon got the phony. "Conservation of detail", in this case, argues more that Redcloak has the real thing, by a 3:1 or better margin; at least 3 strips have been devoted to the old switcheroo plot, only 1 strip to Xykon's astral fortress. The switched phylactery is bound to be paid off at some point, or at worst neither one will end up being a plot point. Final analysis, the fortress is irrelevant simply because the phylactery is the Chekhov's Gun in this instance.

(I don't mean this one; this was Chekov's gun.)

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61UJNIgwHKL._AC_SL1291_.jpg

[Dame_Mechanus]

In Mad Max: Fury Road we are told Furiosa is escaping to The Green Place. It doesn’t exist.

Point of order: it does, indeed, exist. She drives through it. It's no longer green and it's gone sour, leading to one of the most relatable moments of frustration in the film (https://youtu.be/ll9VmZ6EOng). (Yeah, girl, that's relatable.)


I don’t see that it’s necessary to slog through the length and breadth of that dungeon just because we happened to hear about it.

I don't recall saying that it's necessary, just that it's a fair bit of buildup for something that could potentially have some more utility. Could it just be a throwaway gag and could the callback from Thor entirely be a smirking line that this isn't coming up again? Absolutely. It just doesn't read like that to me.

That being said, there are an awful lot of people who seem rather violently opposed to the idea that maybe this still has some narrative utility and might come up again, or asserting that I claimed it must be the Very Definitely Final Dungeon or that it's just the logical end point for everything. None of that has been my position, nor do I consider the idea that Xykon turned himself into a demi-lich and hid himself in there to be plausible. To paraphrase O-Chul, on the subject of how the fortress is going to come into play I confess to having very few solid predictions. The phylactery isn't there, none of the Order can naturally or easily get themselves to the Astral Plane in the first place, and while "stashing the Gate there" seems remotely plausible it requires a few logical leaps to make happen that aren't yet supported by the text. (Maybe Xykon changed the ritual? Sure, that's a theory, but we have no indication he even understands his half to even begin altering it. At best he suspects it might not be what Redcloak says.)

As of right now, there's no reason for the fortress to come up ever again, and as mentioned, it could have just been a gag for its own sake. Heck, the potion seller already appeared, we should be at the final dungeon now! But there are lots of moving pieces and I remain unconvinced none of them will start assembling a footpath toward that fortress.

Not that it's my most pressing narrative loose end I want resolved. (I want to see Elan's plan for fighting Tarquin! Although I half-suspect that's bonus material in Blood Runs in the Family.)

[Ruck]

I don't recall saying that it's necessary, just that it's a fair bit of buildup for something that could potentially have some more utility. Could it just be a throwaway gag and could the callback from Thor entirely be a smirking line that this isn't coming up again? Absolutely. It just doesn't read like that to me.

Even the strip where Thor brings it up is titled "But It Probably Won't Come Up."


To paraphrase O-Chul, on the subject of how the fortress is going to come into play I confess to having very few solid predictions. The phylactery isn't there, none of the Order can naturally or easily get themselves to the Astral Plane in the first place, and while "stashing the Gate there" seems remotely plausible it requires a few logical leaps to make happen that aren't yet supported by the text.

That is, I think, the sticking point-- what's the realistic path that ends up with Xykon in the astral fortress and the Order going there to face him? There doesn't seem to be one.


Not that it's my most pressing narrative loose end I want resolved. (I want to see Elan's plan for fighting Tarquin! Although I half-suspect that's bonus material in Blood Runs in the Family.)

It's not.

[Dame_Mechanus]

That is, I think, the sticking point-- what's the realistic path that ends up with Xykon in the astral fortress and the Order going there to face him? There doesn't seem to be one.

Which is why I specifically cited that as "yeah, right now there isn't a path there." Hence why my predictions stop at feeling like it's going to be involved in some way rather than predicting how.

[Fish]

it's a fair bit of buildup for something that could potentially have some more utility.
Point of order: there has been no buildup.

Not in the comic strip, anyway. The original comic strip containing the fortress has been published for ten years (published in 2012) and barely rated a mention even when we were in the neighborhood of the Astral Plane (2018). I wouldn’t call that a lovely red-hot plot thread with a “fair amount of buildup.” I’d call it moribund. Let’s not confuse the amount of fevered forum speculation with the amount of narrative significance.

You know what else came up twice but hasn’t been mentioned in years? Jimmy the halberd salesman (not since 2014). Redcloak’s niece ( not since I don’t know when).

It’s not impossible, like you said, but it’s not really front page news either.

[Jasdoif]

That is, I think, the sticking point-- what's the realistic path that ends up with Xykon in the astral fortress and the Order going there to face him? There doesn't seem to be one.Which is why I specifically cited that as "yeah, right now there isn't a path there." Hence why my predictions stop at feeling like it's going to be involved in some way rather than predicting how.Everything Roy said about Xykon way back in over Azure City (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) remains the case if the rift is sealed. If Xykon teleports away to regroup after everyone's actively turned against him, he's going to head for his own place, with his own security measures; and the Order's far more likely to try tracking him down and finishing him off before he has time to recover, than to wait for him to strike at a time and condition of his own choosing....And a strip with Xykon giving a villainous monologue in his phylactery after his body's destruction, only to slowly realize he's not in his tomb thing at all but in Redcloak's hand, provides ample opportunity for punchlines.

I could see it happening.

[Ruck]

Everything Roy said about Xykon way back in over Azure City (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) remains the case if the rift is sealed. If Xykon teleports away to regroup after everyone's actively turned against him, he's going to head for his own place, with his own security measures; and the Order's far more likely to try tracking him down and finishing him off before he has time to recover, than to wait for him to strike at a time and condition of his own choosing....


And a strip with Xykon giving a villainous monologue in his phylactery after his body's destruction, only to slowly realize he's not in his tomb thing at all but in Redcloak's hand, provides ample opportunity for punchlines.

I could see it happening.

See, I think the second part here contraindicates the first. Why would Xykon ever retreat to his fortress when he expects his body to respawn there? Why not just try to take out as many of the Order and their allies as he can before they destroy his body, then wait and recover afterward?

[brian 333]

See, I think the second part here contraindicates the first. Why would Xykon ever retreat to his fortress when he expects his body to respawn there? Why not just try to take out as many of the Order and their allies as he can before they destroy his body, then wait and recover afterward?

Recovery time appears to be much faster if he's not destroyed. It appeared to take the time between Dorukon's and The Oracle for him to regenerate after Roy hurled him into the gate, but if he's not destroyed, one rest followed by his most powerful negative energy effect spell and he's back to full HP.

[Ruck]

Recovery time appears to be much faster if he's not destroyed. It appeared to take the time between Dorukon's and The Oracle for him to regenerate after Roy hurled him into the gate, but if he's not destroyed, one rest followed by his most powerful negative energy effect spell and he's back to full HP.

Yeah, that's true. I was thinking though that any damage that he could do before his body was "pounded into dust" might set back the Order even longer than it takes him to recover, so he'd take the risk.

I think for storytelling purposes it's more likely the phylactery switch is going to come into play than the astral fortress, and they kind of seem mutually exclusive to me.

[Jasdoif]

See, I think the second part here contraindicates the first. Why would Xykon ever retreat to his fortress when he expects his body to respawn there? Why not just try to take out as many of the Order and their allies as he can before they destroy his body, then wait and recover afterward?It would depend on how much Xykon trusts Redcloak to not have done something with the phylactery, and/or how much Xykon trusts his own ability to discern whether Redcloak has done something with the phylactery. Redcloak's tried to hold the phylactery over him before, after all; and Xykon's own threat then was that it meant nothing while Xykon himself was out and about.

Alternatively: we've seen what can happen with contingent teleports (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html); and Xykon does know contingency. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) The long shot there is Xykon crushing Redcloak to death just before Xykon is destroyed causing a contingent teleport effect to trigger, with Redcloak's body being teleported along with him since Xykon was still grabbing him; and the objective that follows changes from "track down Xykon before he recovers his spells/hp" to "track down where Xykon is before he regenerates a new body", with the fauxlactery punchline more of an interlude than an ending.


There's a lot of implementation details that could come into play here.

[Dame_Mechanus]

I think for storytelling purposes it's more likely the phylactery switch is going to come into play than the astral fortress, and they kind of seem mutually exclusive to me.

Well, yeah, the phylactery switch is definitely going to be an issue. Similar to my whole "who will die" thread, my confidence on that playing a major role in the story is at 100%. There's too much plot swirling around it. Not sure yet on how it's going to come into play, since there doesn't seem to be time for Xykon to be destroyed and then regenerate slowly, but it's going to come up.

Xykon's fortress? That feels like about a 55-60% bet to me. I wouldn't be shocked if it doesn't happen, but it feels more likely than not. Call it bardic intuition.

:elan: "You're not a bard."

Fine, call it some other kind of intuition.

[Ruck]

It would depend on how much Xykon trusts Redcloak to not have done something with the phylactery, and/or how much Xykon trusts his own ability to discern whether Redcloak has done something with the phylactery. Redcloak's tried to hold the phylactery over him before, after all; and Xykon's own threat then was that it meant nothing while Xykon himself was out and about.

Hmm, yes, that's definitely a factor. (I don't have much to say about the rest of your post, but I think it's a not-impossible scenario.) I do think this is the most likely reason: that despite taking the phylactery from Redcloak and hiding it in the fortress, he might still retreat there just in case Redcloak did something screwy with the phylactery.


Xykon's fortress? That feels like about a 55-60% bet to me. I wouldn't be shocked if it doesn't happen, but it feels more likely than not. Call it bardic intuition.

:elan: "You're not a bard."

Fine, call it some other kind of intuition.

I'd still fade it at that price, but I consider myself a little more convinced it's possible than I did before. I don't think I'd give it more than 20%, though. Ultimately I still feel like the climax will be the battle for the final Gate, and tacking on another chase and battle after that would defuse the importance of that confrontation.

[Dame_Mechanus]

I'd still fade it at that price, but I consider myself a little more convinced it's possible than I did before. I don't think I'd give it more than 20%, though. Ultimately I still feel like the climax will be the battle for the final Gate, and tacking on another chase and battle after that would defuse the importance of that confrontation.

And that's totally fine. This isn't spinning a hot theory or a wild take, just a sense of "hmm, I think that'll come into play before all is said and done." If it doesn't, well, hey, no big deal. If it does, I win a fortune in theoretical quatloos.

[Ruck]

And that's totally fine. This isn't spinning a hot theory or a wild take, just a sense of "hmm, I think that'll come into play before all is said and done." If it doesn't, well, hey, no big deal. If it does, I win a fortune in theoretical quatloos.

Sure. I just like talking about this story, stories in general, and-- befitting my professional history-- probabilities.

I probably moved from about 5% to 15% on whether the fortress will come into play. So while I still think it's unlikely, I can now see something of a plausible path, however thin, that I didn't really see before.


I’d call it moribund.

I'm not sure if we have any Alan Partridge fans in the crowd, but I can't hear "moribund" without thinking about the second episode of Knowing Me, Knowing You.

[Peelee]

And that's totally fine. This isn't spinning a hot theory or a wild take, just a sense of "hmm, I think that'll come into play before all is said and done." If it doesn't, well, hey, no big deal. If it does, I win a fortune in theoretical quatloos.

I'll take that bet. One fortune on the line!

[Jasdoif]

Ultimately I still feel like the climax will be the battle for the final Gate, and tacking on another chase and battle after that would defuse the importance of that confrontation.That's how I felt about Durkon defeating HPoH; and that turned out to be leading into another chase and battle (well, a battle with a timer attached), and it worked out quite effectively. Hard to tell whether I'm going overboard on trying not to make the same mistake again, of course.


I sorta-kinda want to see Belkar's last breath ever as stopping Xykon at the cost of himself, after Xykon has declared that he has no beef with the Order since he's planning to exterminate every last goblin on the planet just to spite Redcloak; so the overall comic can end with this:

https://i.imgur.com/2WHy4vt.gif A goblin legion marches before us. We face one now for the first time with a sense of hope. Because if that...halfling...that...
:elan: Psst! Belkster! Belkster!
https://i.imgur.com/2WHy4vt.gif *sigh* Belkinator, can learn the value of goblin life—
:elan: Aww.
https://i.imgur.com/2WHy4vt.gif —maybe we can too.

[Ruck]

That's how I felt about Durkon defeating HPoH; and that turned out to be leading into another chase and battle (well, a battle with a timer attached), and it worked out quite effectively. Hard to tell whether I'm going overboard on trying not to make the same mistake again, of course.

The key differences here are that A)We knew that Hel's primary plan was to interfere with the Council of Clans vote, and we knew the Ex-Exarch and companions were already headed there.

Here, the primary plan of Team Evil is to seize a Gate, and we have no reason to think anyone is or will be headed to the fortress. Especially since we know the reason anyone would head there, Xykon's phylactery, isn't actually there.


I sorta-kinda want to see Belkar's last breath ever as stopping Xykon at the cost of himself, after Xykon has declared that he has no beef with the Order since he's planning to exterminate every last goblin on the planet just to spite Redcloak; so the overall comic can end with this:

https://i.imgur.com/2WHy4vt.gif A goblin legion marches before us. We face one now for the first time with a sense of hope. Because if that...halfling...that...
:elan: Psst! Belkster! Belkster!
https://i.imgur.com/2WHy4vt.gif *sigh* Belkinator, can learn the value of goblin life—
:elan: Aww.
https://i.imgur.com/2WHy4vt.gif —maybe we can too.

I do not exactly know what Belkar's death will look like, but I would make a decent bet that it's going to fulfill the rest of Sangwaan's prophecy from the bonus strip at the end of Don't Split the Party.

[Jasdoif]

The key differences here are that A)We knew that Hel's primary plan was to interfere with the Council of Clans vote, and we knew the Ex-Exarch and companions were already headed there.

Here, the primary plan of Team Evil is to seize a Gate, and we have no reason to think anyone is or will be headed to the fortress. Especially since we know the reason anyone would head there, Xykon's phylactery, isn't actually there.I suppose....But at the same time, we were just reminded about the fauxlactery with the latest strip (1263 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1263.html), if you're looking at this post in the not-necessarily-distant future)...which reminded me that we were similarly reminded of Xykon's astral thingy back in the previous book (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1137.html).

Which, on one hand, is clearly presented as a joke. On the other hand, this exact thing happened in UHF: Kuni showed up as the host of the Wheel of Fish segment around halfway through the movie, with students from his karate school as support for the game show. Obviously this was a big joke, but it was also a reminder that they existed in case you had forgotten they existed since the first ten minutes of the movie; because they play a role in the penultimate climax of the movie. (It's not hard to make UHF sound more serious than it actually is.)


I do not exactly know what Belkar's death will look like, but I would make a decent bet that it's going to fulfill the rest of Sangwaan's prophecy from the bonus strip at the end of Don't Split the Party.Good point; but it's going to hard to narrow down how Belkar saves Hinjo's life until/unless Hinjo ends up in the same scene as Belkar.

[Ruck]

I suppose....But at the same time, we were just reminded about the fauxlactery with the latest strip (1263 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1263.html), if you're looking at this post in the not-necessarily-distant future)...which reminded me that we were similarly reminded of Xykon's astral thingy back in the previous book (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1137.html).

Yeah, with the astral fortress, as I mentioned, even the comic was titled "But It Probably Won't Come Up." I think it still makes more sense as a decoy destination with the reader knowledge of the fake phylactery. It would take something like you said, Xykon teleporting there prior to being destroyed, for it to matter. I just think the fact that its reason for being is not actually present there makes it more likely we never visit.

And I just don't see a way the fake phylactery can't come up, since destroying Xykon is so central to the Order's quest and thus the story.

Both reminders serve, as much as anything, as signs to the reader of the growing mistrust and discord on Team Evil.


Which, on one hand, is clearly presented as a joke. On the other hand, this exact thing happened in UHF: Kuni showed up as the host of the Wheel of Fish segment around halfway through the movie, with students from his karate school as support for the game show. Obviously this was a big joke, but it was also a reminder that they existed in case you had forgotten they existed since the first ten minutes of the movie; because they play a role in the penultimate climax of the movie. (It's not hard to make UHF sound more serious than it actually is.)

You know, I've still never seen UHF somehow. It's somewhere on my long list of films to get to-- which, while I've done a decent job clearing a lot of those in the last two years, is still nowhere near empty.

But I do have to ask, just how many climaxes does UHF have?


Good point; but it's going to hard to narrow down how Belkar saves Hinjo's life until/unless Hinjo ends up in the same scene as Belkar.

Agreed, which is why I'm not making any prediction more specific than "it will happen in some way." Well, maybe one:

:belkar:: Take good care of Mr. Scruffy.

[Jasdoif]

But I do have to ask, just how many climaxes does UHF have?Short version: the narrative structure is a bit nonconventional, and I prefer to say there's two climaxes rather than try to split the two contenders apart to declare one over the other.

The overarching plotline is the competition between George and (R.J.) Fletcher, carried out by proxy between U-62 (a nearly bankrupt UHF station Weird Al George's uncle Harvey wins in a poker game, that George manages) and Channel 8 (a firmly established network affiliate that Fletcher owns). This is mostly a background presence, used to launch the other arcs and standalone comedy segments off of; but it does receive the largest effort at emotional payoff (the community-owned fundraiser succeeding, defeating Fletcher's attempt to pay off Harvey's sizable gambling debt in exchange for ownership the station) at the end of the movie.

Conversely, the most overt conflict in the movie occurs leading up to that: Fletcher's goon squad kidnapping Kramer Stanley, U-62's superstar, to cripple that fundraiser. It's played fairly straight from the antagonist side, and has the closest fascimiles of action scenes (including the several-minute-long Rambo parody) the movie has; but it's comedy from the protagonist side...all the way down to Kuni and some of his students ending the whole arc by beating up the goons (off screen) in a few seconds, after what is possibly the greatest comedy non sequitur in cinema history.

[Valynie]

if I remember Rightly , A lich transform into a demi lich when it is bored ...
Xykon still has too much fun with random slaughter

[Peelee]

You know, I've still never seen UHF somehow.

It is a masterpiece.

[Carl]

There's no reason for Xykon to pretend to be in the phylactery (if he even could), and there's no reason for him to hide in the fortress. And even if he could, it's on an infinite plane.

First in the scenario i laid out the point would be to bluff OOTS into thinking they got him. If he doesn't act all scared of them blowing up his Phylactery they're going to get super suspicious. Elan especially.

As for hiding in his fortress. Right now hiding there if his worries about RC are correct would be the worst thing he could do, but if RC is out of the picture? Well your further thoughts below apply, but also it would be the safest spot at that point for his real form to hang out in while he sends another fake out as Demi-Lichs are prone to do.


Think of it this way. You know about where I live. Birmingham, AL is not an infinite plane. It's pretty small, geographically speaking. You know I have a house. Think you could find it? Now imagine instead of being in in Birmingham, it's somewhere in the solar system. Which is unfathomably bigger.

And, to misquote Douglas Adams, that's just peanuts compared to an infinite plane.

Thats all fair, in the real world. Short of somthing around the range of a national security agency like the CIA or MI5 or similar your not pulling it off most likely. But where in a D&D setting with high magic, divine scrying, and other such nonsense. Depending on what defences are in place and what resources the order has access to at the time here's a whole bunch of different ways they could find it. Never-mind the power of narrative.

Another thought not strictly related to the topic of the thread, but it occurs to me, could Xykon have worked out the deception about the ritual and be planning to go along upto the point the ritual completes then cracking the gate just as it teleport away so it blows up in whatever plane it's transported to. Bunch of instant dead gods, world is destroyed and he calmly waits away in his astral fortress. it would be the kind of random mass murder he enjoys.

[Mike Havran]

Another thought not strictly related to the topic of the thread, but it occurs to me, could Xykon have worked out the deception about the ritual and be planning to go along upto the point the ritual completes then cracking the gate just as it teleport away so it blows up in whatever plane it's transported to. Bunch of instant dead gods, world is destroyed and he calmly waits away in his astral fortress. it would be the kind of random mass murder he enjoys.Highly unlikely, since he needed to give it away to Tsukiko just so she could decipher what it does for him.

[Carl]

Doesn't rule out her having reported on it AFAIR, or even that he wanted to change the destination but didn't want to tell Tsukiko that.

I agree it's unlikely btw, just another random Xykon related thought i had.

[InvisibleBison]

Another thought not strictly related to the topic of the thread, but it occurs to me, could Xykon have worked out the deception about the ritual and be planning to go along upto the point the ritual completes then cracking the gate just as it teleport away so it blows up in whatever plane it's transported to. Bunch of instant dead gods, world is destroyed and he calmly waits away in his astral fortress. it would be the kind of random mass murder he enjoys.

The ritual doesn't actually move the gate. It just gives the Dark One the ability to cause the gate to move at his discretion. If Xykon broke the gate the moment the ritual completed, he'd just get a big explosion right in his face.

[Peelee]

First in the scenario i laid out the point would be to bluff OOTS into thinking they got him. If he doesn't act all scared of them blowing up his Phylactery they're going to get super suspicious. Elan especially.

Why? They don't know the phylactery will gain eyes and start talking. They didn't even know what a phylactery was until Xykon came back after they already thought they destroyed him. Audience knowledge is not character knowledge.

And all that besides, there's still no reason for him to pretend to be in it even if it was somehow the fake phylactery, because he's significantly more powerful than the Order and his real phylactery is (somehow, in this theory) safe in his astral fortress.

Notwithstanding that there's no thematic reason for any of this to happen to start with and it all seems very video-gamey instead of being a story.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Notwithstanding that there's no thematic reason for any of this to happen to start with and it all seems very video-gamey instead of being a story.

The MOBs of Greysky City were the real villain all along! Celia should have given Belkar those buffs when she had a chance.