Default cleric domain/s

[paladinn]

In the 5e Basic set, the Life domain is the "default" for a beginner player. I don't have a problem with it, because I know healing is traditionally one of the cleric class' main functions. The other is turning/destroying undead. Is the life domain the best choice for a cleric who wants to be nearly/equally good in both roles? What is a good/better choice for dealing with undead? Is there a domain (official or otherwise) that does well at both?

Gratzi!

[RogueJK]

Life Cleric is the best at healing of all the Cleric subclasses, and just as good at turning/destroying undead as any other Cleric.

There's no Cleric subclass that is specifically best at turning/destroying undead. The Turn/Destroy Undead ability is an ability of the base Cleric class, not any specific subclass.

Grave Cleric has an overt anti-undead theme flavor-wise, but their only additional undead-related mechanical ability is that they can sense nearby undead WISMOD times per day, and they aren't as good at healing as a Life Cleric.

[kazaryu]

In the 5e Basic set, the Life domain is the "default" for a beginner player. I don't have a problem with it, because I know healing is traditionally one of the cleric class' main functions. The other is turning/destroying undead. Is the life domain the best choice for a cleric who wants to be nearly/equally good in both roles? What is a good/better choice for dealing with undead? Is there a domain (official or otherwise) that does well at both?

Gratzi!

when you ask what is a better choice for dealign with undead...do you mean in terms of cleric domains? i only ask because...paladins actually get bonus damage vs undead.

if you DO mean cleric domain then...as has been pointed out i don't think any of the domains get any specific anti-undead power besides spells and the channel divinity option thats common to the class as a whole. which means it comes down to the types of undead. light cleric gets some good AoE spells as domain spells, which can help with horde style undead. ditto for tepest domain (although not as good, i don't think).

OtOH forge domain gets you early access to magic weapons which can really help vs incoporeal style undead. and both forge and war domain get the magic weapon spell.


all that said: life cleric is still a fine option. the healing bonuses make it easier to not spend so many spell slots on healing. and the domain list covers a lot of the most common 'support cleric' spells. leaving your prepared list more free to swap in and out as necessary to adapt to any given situation/prepare spells that are good against a variety of undead types

[paladinn]

Just wondering.. there are no domains for "good" and "evil" anymore. What might a cleric of "good" or "holiness" look like?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Just wondering.. there are no domains for "good" and "evil" anymore. What might a cleric of "good" or "holiness" look like?

Way too broad a concept. Since the default is that 5e characters are heroes, a substantial fraction of them (the clerics anyway) would be clerics of "good". But good as expressed/emphasized in <domain>.

Undifferentiated "good" isn't actually a coherent thing in 5e other than a vague "don't make others suffer if you can" or "altruism". And lots of people will differ in what that means.

[Xihirli]

Probably the best anti-undead cleric would be Light.

Well, really it would be Peace or Twilight, but assuming you want to play in a game that’s fun, Light.

[Millstone85]

Just wondering.. there are no domains for "good" and "evil" anymore. What might a cleric of "good" or "holiness" look like?WotC playtested a Love domain that became Unity and eventually Peace.

I think they were going for a really good-aligned domain. They started with the emotion but made the HUGE mistake of giving it mind-control features, making the whole thing rather rapey, and the outcry got so bad that they deleted the pdf. Then they went for a more community-oriented theme, which I personally thought was great. Still, in the end, we got Peace.

[LudicSavant]

In the 5e Basic set, the Life domain is the "default" for a beginner player. I don't have a problem with it, because I know healing is traditionally one of the cleric class' main functions. The other is turning/destroying undead. Is the life domain the best choice for a cleric who wants to be nearly/equally good in both roles? What is a good/better choice for dealing with undead? Is there a domain (official or otherwise) that does well at both?

Gratzi!

Life Domain is far better at in-combat healing than most other Clerics. They are just as good at turning undead as most Clerics, and most Clerics are quite good at that.

If instead you want to burninate hordes of undead with the raw fury of the sun, Light is generally the best AoE blaster Cleric (followed by Tempest) and can hit undead with real sunlight (which is important against select varieties of undead). But really, you don’t need a subclass to be good vs undead as a Cleric.

[RogueJK]

when you ask what is a better choice for dealign with undead...do you mean in terms of cleric domains? i only ask because...paladins actually get bonus damage vs undead.

Yep. They can also sense nearby undead, like a Grave Cleric.


So if you could get around the MADness of the multiclass (perhaps with high rolled stats), a Paladin 2/Life Cleric X would combine the best healing Cleric subclass with the added ability to smite undead.


It might even be doable with Point Buy, using something like this:

High Half-Elf
Paladin 2 -> Life Cleric X
STR 15+1
DEX 9
CON 13+1
INT 8
WIS 14+2
CHA 13
Racial Booming Blade cantrip
Wear Heavy Armor, and utilize a Longsword/Warhammer/Battleaxe and shield.
ASIs: Either +2 STR or Warcaster at Cleric 4 and the other at Cleric 8, followed by +2 WIS at Cleric 12.

Just recognize that it's harder to nova with only one attack per turn, compared to a Paladin with multiple attacks.

[LudicSavant]

Yep. They can also sense nearby undead, like a Grave Cleric.

I recommend the Detect Evil and Good spell instead.


So if you could get around the MADness of the multiclass (perhaps with high rolled stats), a Paladin 2/Life Cleric X would combine the best healing Cleric subclass with the added ability to smite undead.


It might even be doable with Point Buy, using something like this:

High Half-Elf
Paladin 2 -> Life Cleric X
STR 15+1
DEX 9
CON 13+1
INT 8
WIS 14+2
CHA 13
Racial Booming Blade cantrip
Wear Heavy Armor, and utilize a Longsword/Warhammer/Battleaxe and shield.
ASIs: Either +2 STR or Warcaster at Cleric 4 and the other at Cleric 8, followed by +2 WIS at Cleric 12.

Eh. IMHO this is mostly just going to make you MAD, cut into the great scaling that makes Life Cleric excellent, and delay your access to more potent anti-undead tools.

It's not worth jumping through hoops for Divine Sense. It only detects undead that you basically already have line of sight to and already suspect to be there, as a full Action, for just one round. And it can only be used a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier (which isn't going to be good).

Most situations that can be resolved by Divine Sense can be resolved by Detect Evil & Good or other tools already in the Cleric kit.

[paladinn]

Yep. They can also sense nearby undead, like a Grave Cleric.


So if you could get around the MADness of the multiclass (perhaps with high rolled stats), a Paladin 2/Life Cleric X would combine the best healing Cleric subclass with the added ability to smite undead.


It might even be doable with Point Buy, using something like this:

High Half-Elf
Paladin 2 -> Life Cleric X
STR 15+1
DEX 9
CON 13+1
INT 8
WIS 14+2
CHA 13
Racial Booming Blade cantrip
Wear Heavy Armor, and utilize a Longsword/Warhammer/Battleaxe and shield.
ASIs: Either +2 STR or Warcaster at Cleric 4 and the other at Cleric 8, followed by +2 WIS at Cleric 12.

Just recognize that it's harder to nova with only one attack per turn, compared to a Paladin with multiple attacks.

Not really looking at multiclassing (This time). I've been working on alternatives to the 4 subclasses for the 4 classes in the 5e Basic set. I've got the fighter and wizard covered.

The default cleric is the Life cleric, and it's great as-is. I am just looking at adding some offensive and/or defensive ability. Something like Shield would be great. I know there are a few offensive cleric spells, and I wouldn't want to go full blaster like the Light cleric; but something that would put the smackdown on undead. I wish healing spells still hurt undead. I know I'm probably creating a new domain (an "anti-undeath" domain?) so this will end up on homebrew. But no one reads homebrew so I thought I'd start here.

Thanks!

[LudicSavant]

Not really looking at multiclassing (This time). I've been working on alternatives to the 4 subclasses for the 4 classes in the 5e Basic set. I've got the fighter and wizard covered.

The default cleric is the Life cleric, and it's great as-is. I am just looking at adding some offensive and/or defensive ability. Something like Shield would be great. I know there are a few offensive cleric spells, and I wouldn't want to go full blaster like the Light cleric; but something that would put the smackdown on undead. I wish healing spells still hurt undead. I know I'm probably creating a new domain (an "anti-undeath" domain?) so this will end up on homebrew. But no one reads homebrew so I thought I'd start here.

Thanks!

You can efficiently get Shield on a single-class Life Cleric via the Aberrant Dragonmark feat (in Eberron), the Githzerai race (in MPMM), or the Sentinel Human (also Eberron).

That said, there's plenty of offensive and defensive potential built into the Cleric class natively (especially vs Undead). You can seriously just be a Life Cleric, pump your Wisdom, and focus on learning more about how to take advantage of your existing spell list.

[sambojin]

For a really lazy one, you could go "You can use your channel divinity to cast lvl1 Guiding Bolt". That's a fair bit of offense right there.

[Zuras]

Life is generally considered the default cleric subclass because their bonus domain spells are almost all core cleric list spells you would take anyway. This means you’re basically doubling down on doing core cleric stuff, and can take more niche spells on the cleric list as your prepared spells.

Life, Light, Grave and War all have specific buffs that help against undead, especially undead vulnerable to radiant damage or that need radiant damage to kill them permanently. War is surprisingly strong against undead in tier 1 (Divine Favor can do a lot of work), and +10 to ensure you don’t miss means you won’t waste a slot on Guiding Bolt in a critical moment. Every single cleric has decent anti-undead tools available, though.

[LudicSavant]

I think the real reason Life Clerics are considered 'default' is cultural stereotypes that exist beyond the game mechanics themselves.

The ideal playstyle for a Life Cleric is IMHO one of the more unique among the subclasses. They're not one of those subs that just tack new resources onto your kit, they transform the existing options of the kit and how they should be used. You shouldn't play Life like other Clerics, and you shouldn't play other Clerics like Life.

[Zuras]

I think the real reason Life Clerics are considered 'default' is cultural stereotypes that exist beyond the game mechanics themselves.

The ideal playstyle for a Life Cleric is IMHO one of the more unique among the subclasses. They're not one of those subs that just tack new resources onto your kit, they transform the existing options of the kit and how they should be used. You shouldn't play Life like other Clerics, and you shouldn't play other Clerics like Life.

Life Clerics have some tricks that make their standard cleric healing work significantly better, but they don’t play that differently from other heavy armor clerics. A Life Cleric plays a lot closer to a Nature or Forge domain cleric than anything else. Life gets a lot better mileage out of Warding Bond than anybody else, but intentionally taking damage so you can heal yourself later doesn’t work great with the solid concentration spells clerics get.

[LudicSavant]

Life Clerics have some tricks that make their standard cleric healing work significantly better, but they don’t play that differently from other heavy armor clerics. A Life Cleric plays a lot closer to a Nature or Forge domain cleric than anything else.

I beg to differ. Life Cleric is quite different from Forge or Nature.

- Nature and Forge should rarely be using slots on healing in the first place. By contrast...

- Used to its potential, Life Cleric can generate literally 4 digits more hp than Forge or Nature and still have plenty of slots left over for whatever they want. This fundamentally changes what kinds of spells are slot-efficient and what kinds of things they're good for.

- For example, Regenerate multiplies its healing by a factor of ten. Aura of Vitality nearly doubles in effectiveness. Mass Healing Word (which heals nearly twice as much when used by a Life Cleric) + Channel Divinity is enough to take a whole party from the edge of a TPK to hale and hearty, like a "Lesser Mass Heal." And you can throw some damage splitters on to really leverage that. Some Life builds will grab Goodberry (it's even possible to get it on a single-class Cleric's spell list now) and will quadruple its efficiency or more. These are fundamentally not things that Forge or Nature Clerics do.

- Nature tends to use AC-targeting cantrip combos as part of their go-to, whether it's tactics like Shillelagh+Booming Blade or Thorn Whip into Spirit Guardians (and other hazards).

- Heavy armor proficiency isn't really a big defining feature (except for Forge). It's perfectly viable for a Life or Nature Cleric to build 14+ Dex instead of 15+ Str.

- Forge and Nature have unusually poor Channel Divinities while Life has one of the better ones and can build team strategies around it.

[KorvinStarmast]

That said, there's plenty of offensive and defensive potential built into the Cleric class natively (especially vs Undead). You can seriously just be a Life Cleric, pump your Wisdom, and focus on learning more about how to take advantage of your existing spell list. That is my experience also.

Life, Light, Grave and War all have specific buffs that help against undead, especially undead vulnerable to radiant damage or that need radiant damage to kill them permanently. War is surprisingly strong against undead in tier 1 (Divine Favor can do a lot of work), and +10 to ensure you don’t miss means you won’t waste a slot on Guiding Bolt in a critical moment. Every single cleric has decent anti-undead tools available, though. This also.

[Zuras]

I strongly disagree.

- Used to its potential, Life Cleric doesn't just 'make standard healing spells that you were already going to use a little better,' it can generate literally 4 digits more hp than other Clerics and still have plenty of slots left over for whatever they want. This fundamentally changes what kinds of spells are slot-efficient and what kinds of things they're good for. For example, Regenerate multiplies its healing by a factor of ten. Aura of Vitality nearly doubles in effectiveness. Mass Healing Word (which heals nearly twice as much when used by a Life Cleric) + Channel Divinity is enough to take a whole party from the edge of a TPK to hale and hearty, like a "Lesser Mass Heal." And you can throw some damage splitters on to really leverage that. Some Life builds will grab Goodberry (yes, even some single class ones since there are ways to get it on the Cleric list now) and will quadruple its efficiency or more. These are fundamentally not things that Forge or Nature Clerics do.

- Nature and Forge should rarely be using slots on healing in the first place, let alone preparing the same kind of spell spread that Life should.

- Nature tends to use AC-targeting cantrip combos as part of their go-to, whether it's tactics like Shillelagh+Booming Blade or Thorn Whip into Spirit Guardians (and other hazards).

- Heavy armor isn't even one of the more important features of a Life Cleric. Heck, it's perfectly viable to go 14+ Dex instead of 15+ Str with them.

- Forge and Nature have unusually poor Channel Divinities while Life has one of the best ones and can build not only potent combos but entire team strategies around it.

I don’t disagree that Life domain is better at healing than any other, but I’m not seeing how that dramatically changes what spells they want to prepare, and it certainly doesn’t make them play differently for values of different that seem meaningful. A Life cleric plays much closer to a Forge or Nature cleric than a Bard or a Paladin. Spirit Guardians is still their big AoE spell, and they all do much better with front lining martials to support. Even if you’re not getting +5 extra points of healing, Mass Healing Word is still the best way to get multiple PCs back up in a desperate situation.

Maybe my players were just unimaginative, but I’ve had Forge and Life clerics over multiple long campaigns and they played quite similarly.

[paladinn]

I think I may have another option.. The Amonkhet setting includes a "Solidarity" domain. It seems based on the Life domain with some mods to make it a bit more generic/broad-based. I've made a few mods myself as well. While still based on the Life domain (especially in the subclass abilities), the spells have a good balance of offense, defense, utility and healing.

Domain Spells:
L1 - Bless, Guiding Bolt
L3 - Aid, Spiritual Weapon
L5 - Revivify, Dispel Magic
L7 - Guardian of Faith, Banishment
L9 - Mass Cure Wounds, Raise Dead

Features:
Heavy armor proficiency (debating this one - not really a front-liner)
L1 - Shield (Wis mod # per short rest)
L2 - Preserve Life (from Life domain)
L6 - Blessed Healer (from Life)
L8 - Blessed Strike
L17 - Supreme Healing (from Life)

Any thoughts?

Thanks for the input!

[LudicSavant]

Spirit Guardians is still their big AoE spell If 'Spirit Guardians is a top shelf AoE spell for you' was grounds to call something 'default,' then every Cleric subclass would be the default one.


Mass Healing Word is still the best way to get multiple PCs back up in a desperate situation.

A tier 2 Life Cleric boosts the total healing of Mass Healing Word from 45 to 80 hit points (nearly double the output), and can combo it with their Channel Divinity for another 30-50 hit points from their Channel Divinity. This can boost a party from death's door to like 70% health. For example, the Life Cleric themselves will generally have ~50 hp at level 6. You heal that to half + 17.5 and they're going to 85% health.

Forge and Nature clerics cannot do anything remotely like that in tier 2, at all.

Like, to get an idea of the difference in scale of healing here, a Forge/Nature Cleric could upcast single target Cure Wounds to a 3rd level slot and cast it on themselves for 18.5 HP. Or they could cast Life Transference and get a net gain of 18 HP. A Life Cleric could cast Mass Healing Word and they'd heal 17.5 hp to themselves, plus heal 5 other creatures, as a bonus action.

Life Cleric is not 'like a normal Cleric with a little extra healing.' It's so much extra healing that it's basically able to play a different role from typical Clerics, as surely as Light is due to its increased AoE damage.

[meandean]

It feels more elegant to have Warding Flare rather than shield. It's not as powerful, but it's still a pretty good way to serve much the same purpose, and you don't have a Wizard feature on what's supposed to be an archetypal Cleric.

[paladinn]

It feels more elegant to have Warding Flare rather than shield. It's not as powerful, but it's still a pretty good way to serve much the same purpose, and you don't have a Wizard feature on what's supposed to be an archetypal Cleric.

I wanted something very defensive in nature. I thought about using Shield of Faith, but it really doesn't compare. And Warding Flare is very Very much a Light thing.

Any other impressions?

P.S. Light clerics get fireball

[LudicSavant]

I wanted something very defensive in nature. I thought about using Shield of Faith, but it really doesn't compare. And Warding Flare is very Very much a Light thing.

Any other impressions?

P.S. Light clerics get fireball

Against undead, Protection from Evil and Good is a significantly better defense than Blur, on a lower level spell slot.

[kazaryu]

I don’t disagree that Life domain is better at healing than any other, but I’m not seeing how that dramatically changes what spells they want to prepare, and it certainly doesn’t make them play differently for values of different that seem meaningful. A Life cleric plays much closer to a Forge or Nature cleric than a Bard or a Paladin. Spirit Guardians is still their big AoE spell, and they all do much better with front lining martials to support. Even if you’re not getting +5 extra points of healing, Mass Healing Word is still the best way to get multiple PCs back up in a desperate situation. yes spirit guardians is a big AoE spell...and if they're trying to deal damage, that is probably where there concentration will go. but if they're not trying to deal damage...then they have several other great options for their concentration.


Maybe my players were just unimaginative, but I’ve had Forge and Life clerics over multiple long campaigns and they played quite similarly. to be fair, with clerics it is rather easy to play them all similarly. the presumed 'meta' for clerics really doesn't lean into subclass choice all that hard. Most subclass abilities are seen (correctly) as being fairly 'niche'. the reason i put 'niche' in quotes, is that , while it is true that most of the abilites ARE situational, what most white room analysis doesn't take into account the fact that they're situational in a way that relies on the Players, not the DM. they're abilities that the players can lean into, and leverage without really waiting for the DM to set up the right situation.

point being that its really easy to fall into the trap of playing a 'cleric' rather than playing a 'life cleric'. especially since a lot of players are very damage focused. the trap would be thinking that the subclass abilities aren't worth relying on, or leaning into.


If 'Spirit Guardians is a top shelf AoE spell for you' was grounds to call something 'default,' then every Cleric subclass would be the default one. OMG i cannot even BEGIN to describe my frustration with people thinking spirit guardians is the 'default' concentration choice for mid level clerics. its like they can't imagine a cleric might want to use their concentration on something besides dealing damage. recently had a short exchange with a youtuber that took that position in a particularly smug way. Thank you for partially restoring my sanity.




A tier 2 Life Cleric boosts the total healing of Mass Healing Word from 45 to 80 hit points (nearly double the output), and can combo it with their Channel Divinity for another 30-50 hit points from their Channel Divinity. This can boost a party from death's door to like 70% health. For example, the Life Cleric themselves will generally have ~50 hp at level 6. You heal that to half + 17.5 and they're going to 85% health.


Like, to get an idea of the difference in scale of healing here, a Forge/Nature Cleric could upcast single target Cure Wounds to a 3rd level slot and cast it on themselves for 18.5 HP. Or they could cast Life Transference and get a net gain of 18 HP. A Life Cleric could cast Mass Healing Word and they'd heal 17.5 hp to themselves, plus heal 5 other creatures, as a bonus action. im a little confused by your numbers...although now that im typing this realized the likely source of part of the confusion. however, when you mention the mass healing word healing, it seems to imply (unintentionally, im sure) that you can heal everyone for 17.5 with a single casting. when in fact it should be just the life cleric healing 17.5 (and then only at levle 6+) and everyone else for 12.5, yes?



Life Cleric is not 'like a normal Cleric with a little extra healing.' It's so much extra healing that it's basically able to play a different role from typical Clerics, as surely as Light is due to its increased AoE damage. this is the one part that i will (partially) disagree with. and is the sole reason that life clerics are so underrated. life clerics bonus healing REALLY only shines when damage is spread through the party. it doesn't matter that mass healing word could theoretically heal for 80 if only 1 person took damage. Meaning that life clerics actually are at their most valuable in games of high lethality.

(as a side note: now that Tasha's is out, if the DM uses the optional spell lists, then life clerics obviously do get a ton of value out of aura of vitality).


I wanted something very defensive in nature. I thought about using Shield of Faith, but it really doesn't compare. And Warding Flare is very Very much a Light thing.

Any other impressions?

P.S. Light clerics get fireball

well, life clerics already have heavy armor on top of their shields. and post level 6 they heal themselves whenever they heal others. so they're in pretty good shape defensively. nut yeah, as ludic mentioned, protection from good and evil is great anti-undead protection. although it does cost your concentration.

if you're not planning to attack/deal damage to enemies. then sanctuary is a GREAT general defensive tool (not just against undead). note that your turn undead channel divinity wouldn't even break sanctuary. its also a BA to cast, and doesn't use concentration.

[LudicSavant]

Thank you for partially restoring my sanity.

https://forums.giantitp.com/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png


im a little confused by your numbers...although now that im typing this realized the likely source of part of the confusion. however, when you mention the mass healing word healing, it seems to imply (unintentionally, im sure) that you can heal everyone for 17.5 with a single casting. when in fact it should be just the life cleric healing 17.5 (and then only at levle 6+) and everyone else for 12.5, yes?

Not sure why that seems to be implied, but to make it perfectly clear:

The Life Cleric heals themselves for 17.5, and up to 5 other creatures for 12.5, for the already-stated total of 80 hp with max targets.
Note that at level 6, typical HP for a Cleric is ~50. So for example if you raise that to half+17.5, that's ~85% hp. If you raise a character with similar hp to half+12.5, that's ~75% hp.

Forge/Nature Cleric full Action single target heals in the same spell slot are only worth about 18 hp, total.
Forge/Nature Mass Healing Word is worth 7.5 hp per target, for a total of 45 hp with max targets.
Forge/Nature Aura of Vitality would be 70 hp, total, using an Action, 10 bonus actions, and 10 entire turns of Concentration.
Forge/Nature does not have any tier 2 combination that can burst heal a party anything remotely like LC MHW+CD.

[Zuras]

A tier 2 Life Cleric boosts the total healing of Mass Healing Word from 45 to 80 hit points (nearly double the output), and can combo it with their Channel Divinity for another 30-50 hit points from their Channel Divinity. This can boost a party from death's door to like 70% health. For example, the Life Cleric themselves will generally have ~50 hp at level 6. You heal that to half + 17.5 and they're going to 85% health.

Forge and Nature clerics cannot do anything remotely like that in tier 2, at all.

Like, to get an idea of the difference in scale of healing here, a Forge/Nature Cleric could upcast single target Cure Wounds to a 3rd level slot and cast it on themselves for 18.5 HP. Or they could cast Life Transference and get a net gain of 18 HP. A Life Cleric could cast Mass Healing Word and they'd heal 17.5 hp to themselves, plus heal 5 other creatures, as a bonus action.

Life Cleric is not 'like a normal Cleric with a little extra healing.' It's so much extra healing that it's basically able to play a different role from typical Clerics, as surely as Light is due to its increased AoE damage.

I’m at a loss to see how the Life Cleric in your example is playing differently, in terms of style (not effectiveness). If you trained an AI to play an 8th level Forge Cleric optimally, it wouldn’t take much time to adjust it to play Life domain, certainly not the time you’d need to switch to playing a Bard, Fighter, or other non-cleric class.

Sure, your break points for when healing makes sense are higher, but you’re still only healing people when they’re hurt. The only difference is you can heal allies before they go down for more than a Hill Giant deals in a single attack.

Besides healing, you’re using mostly buffing and action denial spells to provide support or wading in with Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon if you need to do the damage dealing personally. That’s exactly what you’d be doing as 2/3rds of the other domains, except you have heavy armor and can probably do modest damage with a simple melee weapon.

It’s not like you can optimize in-combat healing—you’re at the mercy of your opponent in determining who ends up getting hit, and you rarely have a chance to reach your theoretical healing maximum unless the whole party got hit by an AoE. Most of the time one unlucky PC gets roughed up pretty badly well before the rest of the party gets bloodied.

[LudicSavant]

If you trained an AI to play an 8th level Forge Cleric optimally, it wouldn’t take much time to adjust it to play Life domain, certainly not the time you’d need to switch to playing a Bard, Fighter, or other non-cleric class.

That's an argument you could use for any Cleric subclass.

If we're drawing playstyle comparisons to other Clerics, I'd say that Nature is more similar to Arcana than to Life.


Sure, your break points for when healing makes sense are higher, but you’re still only healing people when they’re hurt.

To me that's a bit like saying a main single target damage dealer is the same as someone who is not that because 'your break points for when dealing direct damage makes sense are higher, but you're still only damaging people when they're not dead.'

Like, if a tier 2 Life Cleric wants to bring a party on the brink back up to healthy, they can just do that in a turn. Whereas a Tier 2 Forge/Nature Cleric doesn't even have an AoE burst healing option, let alone all the other healing options that a Life Cleric makes possible, or the strategies that said healing options enable.


It’s not like you can optimize in-combat healing—you’re at the mercy of your opponent in determining who ends up getting hit

That's not really the case. Life Clerics, and many of party compositions that they're well suited for, have numerous efficient techniques for redirecting damage as they desire (and/or punishing enemies for not going where they want). They also excel at both single and multi-target healing.

Whether you take advantage of that is up to you, not your opponents.


Meaning that life clerics actually are at their most valuable in games of high lethality.

Agreed. No point in survivability features if enemies are too weak to hurt you regardless.

Side note: Generally when I discuss optimization it can be assumed that I am speaking in the context of a game that is difficult enough for optimization to be relevant.

[paladinn]

I've been told that having Shield that often on a short rest is OP, and that it should either be on a long rest Or I should choose another ability. Shield of Faith and Protection from Good/Evil have been recommended, but both require concentration. Might the Light cleric Warding Flare be better? I don't have a problem "borrowing" from Light because this is pretty much a "Good" subclass, and I want to have a good balance even if it is mostly Life-based.

I'm removing the heavy armor proficiency, as this is not going to be a real front-liner (but not a wimp either.. balance!)

Thanks in advance!

Edit: Warding Flare isn't really a spell and not based on concentration, but it's a bit more situational than I'd like. If the attacker can't be blinded, it's useless. I definitely want something defensive.

Is there a decent alternative?

[paladinn]

Kane0 has given me a suggestion for the L1 feature:

Saving Grace
On your reaction, you can add your Wis mod to the saving throw or AC for one attack. You can do this a number of times = your proficiency bonus, and it resets on a long rest.

Thoughts?

[kazaryu]

Kane0 has given me a suggestion for the L1 feature:

Saving Grace
On your reaction, you can add your Wis mod to the saving throw or AC for one attack. You can do this a number of times = your proficiency bonus, and it resets on a long rest.

Thoughts?

I mean, its not great. but then clerics don't really use their reaction much outside of readied actions so...it is *technically* a straight upgrade. slightly stronger than light clerics warding flare.

[paladinn]

I mean, its not great. but then clerics don't really use their reaction much outside of readied actions so...it is *technically* a straight upgrade. slightly stronger than light clerics warding flare.

Thanks.. Got any better ideas? I'm open to suggestions

[kazaryu]

Thanks.. Got any better ideas? I'm open to suggestions

tbh, i prefer not to homebrew things like that. What makes you think you need stronger defenses?

[paladinn]

tbh, i prefer not to homebrew things like that. What makes you think you need stronger defenses?

What I'm going for is balance between some offense, defense and utility with a lot of healing. Since I've ditched heavy armor proficiency (because I was advised it was OP), I wanted something more for defense. I considered Warding Flare, but it seems very much a Light feature.

[Zuras]

I mean, its not great. but then clerics don't really use their reaction much outside of readied actions so...it is *technically* a straight upgrade. slightly stronger than light clerics warding flare.

It’s actually significantly better than Warding Flare, since it can interact with other defenses that impose disadvantage—you can Dodge and then still use your reaction to force the one blow that made it through to miss. It’s still probably fine, since it only affects a single attack.

For what it’s worth, in my personal experience with clerics, their biggest weakness has been bad Dex and Con saves. In Tier 1 your armor is a solid defense, but after transitioning into Tier 2 your AC doesn’t help as much because you start getting hit with more AoEs and other save based attacks.

[paladinn]

It’s actually significantly better than Warding Flare, since it can interact with other defenses that impose disadvantage—you can Dodge and then still use your reaction to force the one blow that made it through to miss. It’s still probably fine, since it only affects a single attack.

For what it’s worth, in my personal experience with clerics, their biggest weakness has been bad Dex and Con saves. In Tier 1 your armor is a solid defense, but after transitioning into Tier 2 your AC doesn’t help as much because you start getting hit with more AoEs and other save based attacks.

Any suggestions?

[LudicSavant]

It’s actually significantly better than Warding Flare

Yeah that feature blows Warding Flare completely out of the water.

[diplomancer]

Every time you make a low level feature that scales with proficiency bonus, you've got to consider the impact with multiclassing. Monks are going to love this; if they use Patient Defense, we may be looking at 25AC with disadvantage (in addition to all the goodies they get from a Cleric dip).

[LudicSavant]

Since I've ditched heavy armor proficiency (because I was advised it was OP), I wanted something more for defense.

It sounds like you received poor advice. Weapon and armor proficiencies are some of the least influential factors to how strong Cleric subclasses are compared to each other. The jump from a 1d6 to a 1d8 is negligible for a single attack class, and the tradeoff of a 14 Dex statline + medium + shield to a 15 Str statline + heavy + shield is mostly a sidegrade.

Some would even go further and argue that Dex is the superior route, even for Clerics that automatically get the h.armor proficiency (such as Twilight). For instance, here's the first google result for 'should you go Strength or Dexterity on a Twilight Cleric?' (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/k4jfog/comment/ge9y48y/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Here's the second. (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/odozo4/comment/h41oha7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

[stoutstien]

It sounds like you received poor advice. Weapon and armor proficiencies are some of the least influential factors to how strong Cleric subclasses are compared to each other. The jump from a 1d6 to a 1d8 is negligible for a single attack class, and the tradeoff of a 14 Dex statline + medium + shield to a 15 Str statline + heavy + shield is mostly a sidegrade.

Some would even go further and argue that Dex is the superior route, even for Clerics that automatically get the h.armor proficiency (such as Twilight). For instance, here's the first google result for 'should you go Strength or Dexterity on a Twilight Cleric?' (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/k4jfog/comment/ge9y48y/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Here's the second. (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/odozo4/comment/h41oha7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

Heck. Outside of the greatsword the actual weapon damage di(c)e is the smallest portion of an attack's damage. The individual weapon tags are what you are looking at if damage via weapon is your goal. Additionally as classes level up features continue to gradually decrease the value of the damage weapons.

[Zuras]

It sounds like you received poor advice. Weapon and armor proficiencies are some of the least influential factors to how strong Cleric subclasses are compared to each other. The jump from a 1d6 to a 1d8 is negligible for a single attack class, and the tradeoff of a 14 Dex statline + medium + shield to a 15 Str statline + heavy + shield is mostly a sidegrade.

Some would even go further and argue that Dex is the superior route, even for Clerics that automatically get the h.armor proficiency (such as Twilight). For instance, here's the first google result for 'should you go Strength or Dexterity on a Twilight Cleric?' (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/k4jfog/comment/ge9y48y/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Here's the second. (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/odozo4/comment/h41oha7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

Yeah, heavy armor proficiency is often a very minor benefit compared to medium. Slightly better AC vs worse saves (assuming you invest in Str rather than Dex) and disadvantage on stealth is a mixed trade-off.

Weapon proficiencies still matter a lot though. Not in min-maxing terms so much, but getting to pack a heavy crossbow as a Dex War domain cleric feels pretty good. Also, if you’re using Dex, the difference is 1d4 vs 1d8, because the only finesse simple melee weapon is the dagger. That’s enough of a difference that you’re probably just using cantrips, taking a racial pick that grants weapon proficiencies, or using Shillelagh (from your subclass, race or a feat).

[kazaryu]

What I'm going for is balance between some offense, defense and utility with a lot of healing. Since I've ditched heavy armor proficiency (because I was advised it was OP), I wanted something more for defense. I considered Warding Flare, but it seems very much a Light feature.

WAIT. who told you heavy armor proficiency is OP?

the ****? its literally +1 armor over medium armor. idk, i'd literally just go life cleric. they get heavy armor (and no, its not OP...good grief) and bonus healing. you can pick up spells like shield of faith, sanctuary, and protection from evil and good to supplement your defenses (or an allies defenses).

keep in mind (and this is also part of the reason heavy armor isn't OP), on of the more useful tools you have is a spell called 'warding bond'. which causes you to split all damage that...whoever your targetted with it takes. the reason it can be so good is that it helps to spread the damage through the party, which makes it easier to recover from. and life clerics on top of that (at level 6) heal themselves whenever they heal others. warding bond all but gaurantees that that feature doesn't go to waste. And this is where the connection to heavy armor comes in. you're already taking half the damage another character would take with no way to reduce it and risking taking 50% extra damage from AoE that hits both you and your bonded target. you don't need to have your direct defenses nerfed.


Yeah that feature blows Warding Flare completely out of the water.

It’s actually significantly better than Warding Flare, since it can interact with other defenses that impose disadvantage—you can Dodge and then still use your reaction to force the one blow that made it through to miss. It’s still probably fine, since it only affects a single attack.


eh, its still only one attack. like, the benefit is nice in that it stacks with disadvantage. But warding flare isn't weak because it uses disadvantage. warding flare is weak because it only affects 1 attack. and really...a -5 to hit (from disadvantage) and a +5 to AC are otherwise essentially the same benefit.

granted, that is just talking about its benefit agaisnt attacks. the fact that it can also work against saves (like concentration checks) is pretty good, i suppose. but then its not really a 'defense' tool. its a 'don't drop concentration' tool.

[LudicSavant]

eh, its still only one attack. like, the benefit is nice in that it stacks with disadvantage.
The difference is considerably more than just that. You're overlooking the elephant in the room.

[Christew]

The difference is considerably more than just that. You're overlooking the elephant in the room.

Saving Grace
On your reaction, you can add your Wis mod to the saving throw or AC for one attack. You can do this a number of times = your proficiency bonus, and it resets on a long rest.
In addition to proficiency scaling, working on saves or attack rolls, and having the 30 ft range restriction removed -- the way this is written it can be used on allies.

[Zuras]

Any suggestions?

It’s homebrew. Build it in an adjustable, play-testable way. Many of the subclass abilities in Tasha’s are 1/LR, but allow you to use the ability more frequently by burning a spell slot, which is a good template.

If I had a player ask for this ability at my table, I’d set it up as once per long rest, but you can trade a first level slot for more uses. If they never burn any slots for extra uses, it’s probably fine as a free extra resource pool and can be switched to proficiency mod per LR. If they’re constantly burning first level slots, it’s probably overtuned and needs to be nerfed.

The comparable defensive abilities all have pretty high costs:

Shield costs a first level spell slot and doesn’t help with saves. It also isn’t naturally on the spell lists of any class with medium armor proficiency and copious spell slots. Non-multiclass Hexblades and Eldritch Knights get it, but have a very limited supply compared to a equal level cleric.

Arcane Deflection forces you to only use cantrips for a turn, and War Wizards have access to Shield anyway. It also only ever offers +2 to AC, while one based on Wis likely offers +4 as soon as 4th level.

Defensive Duelist requires a feat and only works on melee attacks.

All the various Bard methods to improve AC draw from your existing pool of Bardic Inspiration dice.

Warding Flare requires declaration prior to the roll (not after, and not on being informed of a hit), and provides somewhat less protection than +5 to AC. It’s nice but not a core feature, and I’ve never seen Monks dipping for a level of Light Cleric the way people dip for Shield or Arcane Deflection.

[meandean]

"I can protect myself well" doesn't seem IMHO like something that should be the most basic ability of a "generic" Cleric. I can accept Warding Flare on a Light Cleric because it's flavored as you making an offensive strike with your powers ("I made you BLIND!"), and that feels like something a Light Cleric would do, even though it ultimately is really defending yourself.

So, start with the question of what a generic Cleric is. Traditionally, it's channeling their god's power towards either aiding their allies, or punishing their enemies. It sounds like you don't want it to be healing, because Life has that covered. And there are also clerics that give their allies more Hit Points (Twilight), or just give them a small, across-the-boost similar to bless (Peace). So the ally-aiding space is admittedly a little crowded.

Straightforward idea: Beseech your god for a divine intervention (don't call the ability that, obviously...) that can force enemies to re-roll attack rolls against your allies.

More outlandish idea: Supercharge a cantrip(s). Toll the dead or sacred flame is this subclass's version of eldritch blast; you can twin it, or make it have an additional effect. And/or, guidance isn't concentration and has a 90' range. And/or, spare the dying... nah, who would ever make a subclass whose base feature was improving spare the dying??