Does ANYTHING that increases intelligence permanently change animal->magical beast?

[Segev]

Even if it doesn't say it does?

Mental evolution (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Mental_Evolution) gives details on how it alters the target creature's stats. It works even on non-animals, which is probably why it doesn't focus on things other than what it does directly. But if you use it on an animal, do you recalculate hit dice and hit points? Does the creature gain Magical Beast traits (e.g. darkvision and BAB going to 1:1)?

[Beni-Kujaku]

No‚ it doesn't RAW. Animals have a trait saying that they can't have more than 2 Int‚ but that's as always "unless noted". Oozes have the mindless trait but there are some officially published intelligent oozes.

Still‚ that seems to be the intent‚ considering most things that change intelligence make animals into Magical Beast‚ and probably nobody would blame you from ruling it that way. Another way to see it is that you just can't increase an animal's intelligence without changing its type‚ and their Int score is capped at 2.

[noob]

As far as I know if you increase the intelligence of an animal beyond 2 it just loses the animal type due to not qualifying but it does not means it gains another unless you have an effect that grants another type.
So you can potentially get type-less creatures by giving headbands of intellect to animals.

[Maat Mons]

If getting a bonus that would bump Int over 2 causes Animals to become Magical Beasts, then all Animals eventually become Magical Beasts, due to the bonuses accrued by aging.

[Segev]

If getting a bonus that would bump Int over 2 causes Animals to become Magical Beasts, then all Animals eventually become Magical Beasts, due to the bonuses accrued by aging.
Japanese - and possibly other - mythos/mythoi would agree with this.

[noob]

If getting a bonus that would bump Int over 2 causes Animals to become Magical Beasts, then all Animals eventually become Magical Beasts, due to the bonuses accrued by aging.

They lose the animal type, that does not means they gain the magical beast type.
While it would make sense to say "it got an headband of intellect, it made it a magical beast because magic"(which is not raw, it is homebrew: when an animal gets an headband of intellect it does not become a magical beast according to the rules as written) it would not make sense to graft a non magical cybernetic implant of intelligence increase and suddenly say "now it is a magical beast".
Nor would it make sense to say "it got old, now it is a magical beast" unless you have a specific justification in your setting.(in a Japanese setting an old animal could become a fey, an outsider or a magical beast)

[Alcore]

To my understanding a creature must have at least one type. Anything that permanently increases int would result in them no longer qualifying as animals. Do they have to become a magical beast? Probably not but it is the most common replacement.


Additionally... animals (and the vast majority of monsters) were never "coded" with age categories so there is no aging penalties or bonuses.



I think RAW & RAI are one in the same in this case. To my knowledge no official supplement nor AP covers this area. Many GMs have their own settings. Change your RAI to fit yhe setting you want; go nuts.

[Jack_Simth]

Pathfinder has a note on this with Animal Companions (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Druid/animal-companions/#Intelligent_Animals-2)

Even if an animal’s Intelligence increases to 3 or higher, you must still use the Handle Animal skill to direct the animal, as it is a smart animal rather than a low-intelligence person
Pathfinder notes this situation: Still an animal.

[Beni-Kujaku]

As far as I know if you increase the intelligence of an animal beyond 2 it just loses the animal type due to not qualifying but it does not means it gains another unless you have an effect that grants another type.
So you can potentially get type-less creatures by giving headbands of intellect to animals.


They lose the animal type, that does not means they gain the magical beast type.

If something doesn't say that it changes type, then it doesn't. You don't have to "qualify" for a type, there are no "prerequisites", only special traits and qualities, and those are always described as "unless written otherwise'. If an animal gains 4 Int with a headband, the headband doesn't say that its type changes, so it doesn't. For example, a vampire can change into a wolf and gain its physical scores. This gives the vampire a Con score. Does it make the vampire alive again? No, it just makes it an undead with Constitution until they change back into undead form. It's basically the same for an animal.

[noob]

If an animal gains 4 Int with a headband, the headband doesn't say that its type changes, so it doesn't. For example, a vampire can change into a wolf and gain its physical scores. This gives the vampire a Con score. Does it make the vampire alive again? No, it just makes it an undead with Constitution until they change back into undead form. It's basically the same for an animal.
That simply does not makes sense: alternate form (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) explicitly mentions not changing type

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
So it is not a good example for your assertion that not specifying you do not change type does not means you do not change type else the ability would not specify it.
Also pathfinder vampires uses beast shape which does not grants a constitution score nor a constitution boost.
There is no written rule backing you while there is a written rule saying an animal is not intelligent.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/
From this page:

no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal
So yes, there is such a thing as qualifying for a type and for some reason it exists only for animals.

[redking]

This question hasn't been resolved since 3.5 days.

The plurality of opinion is that the creature becomes a magical beast. This is due to extrapolation of how animal familiars become magical beasts.

I'd say no. The change in type causes more problems than the apparent inconsistency than it is supposed to resolve. I would rule that it remains an animal, but due to magic the animal has an INT of greater than 2.

[St Fan]

This basically accrues to reading the line as "No creature with a [natural] Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal."

Which I approve of for the sake of simplicity.

[Vaern]

They lose the animal type, that does not means they gain the magical beast type.


If it loses its type and does not gain a new one then it probably dies and/or becomes an object. Animals only have racial hit dice derived from its animal type, so in the absence of a type or has no hit dice and thus no HP.

[noob]

If it loses its type and does not gain a new one then it probably dies and/or becomes an object. Animals only have racial hit dice derived from its animal type, so in the absence of a type or has no hit dice and thus no HP.

You do not require to have a given type for having type hd associated to it.

[Ramza00]

Even if it doesn't say it does?

Mental evolution (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Mental_Evolution) gives details on how it alters the target creature's stats. It works even on non-animals, which is probably why it doesn't focus on things other than what it does directly. But if you use it on an animal, do you recalculate hit dice and hit points? Does the creature gain Magical Beast traits (e.g. darkvision and BAB going to 1:1)?

Remember Animal, Magical Beast is a holdover from earlier editions.

There used to be 3 categories, Animal for real life animal, Beast for fantastical animal but low intelligence, Magical Beast for things with magical abilities. The problem with these 3 categories is they blended into each other, where do dinosaurs fit in? What about a Beast but with high intelligence but no magical abilities, etc, etc.

Aka the mechanics were not the original thing but a placeholder, and now we have the reverse problem where different categories have different mechanics.

[Kitsuneymg]

My personal opinion is that increasing an animals intelligence past 2 just doesn’t work. It stays at 2, unless a more specific rule says otherwise or it’s type changes. Putting a +6 headband on a dog still leaves it with a 2 int.

[Segev]

My personal opinion is that increasing an animals intelligence past 2 just doesn’t work. It stays at 2, unless a more specific rule says otherwise or it’s type changes. Putting a +6 headband on a dog still leaves it with a 2 int.

I mean, that's all well and good, until you say a thing designed to do just that can't do what it is designed to do. See: Mental Evolution.

[ShurikVch]

FWIW, Onyx Dog (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Figurine%20of% 20Wondrous%20PowerOnyx%20Dog) have Int 8 - and still an Animal...

[Segev]

FWIW, Onyx Dog (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Figurine%20of% 20Wondrous%20PowerOnyx%20Dog) have Int 8 - and still an Animal...

Huh. Good catch.

[Raven777]

Clearly, increasing an Animal's Int beyond 2 makes it disappear in a puff of logic. That's the only way.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A wizard or psion (Int 14+) can polymorph or metamorphosis into an animal and gain the animal type, so clearly it's doable, although changing the Int of an already-extant animal is potentially different.

[Oddstar]

Masters of the Wild, a 3.0 book, says on page 37 that "Because [the spell Awaken] grants humanlike sentience and intelligence to an animal, the creature's type changes to magical beast." Granted, it is discussing a specific spell that increases the intelligence of an animal past two, but it also expressly says that the change to magical beast is because of the increase in intelligence. In other words, the increase in intelligence is what causes the change in type. I think it follows necessarily that anything else that increases an animal's intelligence past two would also change its type to magical beast. That is how I would adjudicate it as a DM.

[catagent101]

I had some memory of reading an official Paizo blog post on the subject, and lo and behold there is (https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lc1y?Monkey-See-Monkey-Do-An-FAQ-on-Intelligent).


Note that while the monster guidelines talk about a maximum Int for an animal, this only applies to the creation process. Giving an animal a higher Intelligence score does not somehow transform it into a magical beast, unless the effect says otherwise, such as in the case of awaken. Animals can grow to have an Int higher than 2 through a variety of means, but they should not, as a general rule, be created that way.

I think this dev response in the comments is also useful:


They do and this is an intentional change we are making. The rules leave no room for an animal to gain intelligence without somehow transforming into a magical beast, which comes with a whole host of changes. There has to be room here for corner cases and exceptions, which this absolute rule does not allow.

So according to Jason Bulhman at least, no it remains an animal and doesn't turn into a magical beast.

(I also feel the need to note that I like the artwork of the angry gorilla in the blog post)

EDIT: If you want a rules source Ultimate Campaign also has a bit on intelligent animals (https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Intelligent%20Animals&Category=Companions).

[Darg]

I mean, Awaken specifically says, "You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience." This doesn't necessarily mean that the stat boosts change the creatures type. A PC that drops to 0-2 int doesn't suddenly become unplayable just because the rules say "creatures with an Intelligence score lower than 3 are not playable characters." Further the PHB mentions, "An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has scores of at least 3." There's no rule to tell you what happens when a creature drops to 1-2 int. Likewise, increasing int above 3 doesn't simply grant it humanlike intelligence.


This basically accrues to reading the line as "No creature with a [natural] Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal."

Which I approve of for the sake of simplicity.

I have to agree with this. Especially when the MM says this, "Treasure: None. Animals never possess treasure." Giving your companion some barding/a saddle doesn't make it not an animal.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Nothing in the rules says an animal can't use its 1/4 level stat bonus on its Int score.

[St Fan]

Nothing in the rules says an animal can't use its 1/4 level stat bonus on its Int score.

Except animals can't get character levels since their Intelligence is lower than 3 (at least I think there's a rule about that).

[ciopo]

Except animals can't get character levels since their Intelligence is lower than 3 (at least I think there's a rule about that).

but pf animal companions are at least implicitly allowed to increase their INT, see feat section, "Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources.", which strongly imply increasing their INT at their 4th hit die is perfectly legal

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Except animals can't get character levels since their Intelligence is lower than 3 (at least I think there's a rule about that).Racial HD are still levels and still count for their ability score increases.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Additionally... animals (and the vast majority of monsters) were never "coded" with age categories so there is no aging penalties or bonuses.

It also means that, by RAW, all animals are ageless and immortal unless killed, as they can't reach venerable age and you can't die of old age if you're not venerable.