Robbing a magic mart

[Jon_Dahl]

Recently, the PCs in my campaign have managed to allow the sale and buying of magic items. This is something completely new for the NPCs and PCs alike. I would like this to have serious repercussions.

One of the NPCs establishes a magic mart in the capital of a major kingdom. The store gets robbed within 24 hours resulting in the full closure of the store and the immediate bancrupcy of the NPC. This incident will deter NPCs from establishing magic marts, and the magic item trade will happen through brokers/intermediaries that are part of powerful organizations and take 50% commissions. The buyers and sellers opt for anonymity.

What I'm asking from you, my friends, is to explain, in detail, how to rob a generic magic mart that operates like any other store. Aim for simplicity and not-so-high levels, please. This is NPC vs. NPC action, which is intended to impress the players.

[H_H_F_F]

Low level tactic?

Walk into the store. One dude distracts the salesmen while the other picks up a handy haversack from the store and stealthily stashes it full of magic items. Buy the haversack and leave.

[Jack_Simth]

Recently, the PCs in my campaign have managed to allow the sale and buying of magic items. This is something completely new for the NPCs and PCs alike. I would like this to have serious repercussions.

One of the NPCs establishes a magic mart in the capital of a major kingdom. The store gets robbed within 24 hours resulting in the full closure of the store and the immediate bancrupcy of the NPC. This incident will deter NPCs from establishing magic marts, and the magic item trade will happen through brokers/intermediaries that are part of powerful organizations and take 50% commissions. The buyers and sellers opt for anonymity.

What I'm asking from you, my friends, is to explain, in detail, how to rob a generic magic mart that operates like any other store. Aim for simplicity and not-so-high levels, please. This is NPC vs. NPC action, which is intended to impress the players.
The attacker aren't very magical, neither is the defender.

OK.

Magic items won't be sold like clothes are today. Today, you can walk into a store, look around, try things on, and touch basically everything (or at least the box they're in) directly, no problem. That is a very old setup, but it's That's only done for reasonably durable goods with low value density (think "how valuable is it vs. how hard is it to move" - a diamond has a very high value density - it's very valuable, and very easy to move - while an anvil has a much lower value density: It's got some value, but is not very easy to move).

For goods with a higher value density they're in an area that's not customer accessible (think jewelry store, but glass is expensive, so all the counters are wood, and the jewelry is on shelving behind the counter, with more stock in the back to replace things as they're purchased). The store has a guard or two watching things, and the salesperson at the counter has a few weapons behind the counter out of customer sight, so there's always one in easy reach, although the salesperson is not directly armed.

This place can be robbed in at least a couple of ways (there's probably more):

1) Raid: You get more guys than the shop has, and do it quick & violent. Come in, stab folks, grab things, and leave. Good for melee types. Can get it all, but you'll probably lose folks, it's loud, and theft + murder tends to rile the local law more than theft does.
2) Stealth: Everyone's gotta sleep, no? Come by when the place is closed, disarm any alarms or traps, pick the lock, hide from the night watch, take things by stealth. Single rogue can do this, classic rogue stuff. Can get it all! Risky if you fail skill checks, though.
3) Bluff & run: Good for single items only. Come in dressed rich, examine the goods, reject a lot, find the most expensive thing in the store, and while handling it to make sure it's nice... cut and run. A 1st level D&D spell, Benign Transposition, can be really helpful: Swap places with a trained rat or something left outside, but this is not strictly necessary to the technique. Social skill monkey of most stripes - this is the bard style. Downside: Only one or two items, tops.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Any magic shop worth the magic it's based on is going to keep all of its stock in an extradimensional space that's impossible to rob. For instance, rope trick is a great lowish-level way to store valuables if you're attached to a specific locale.

The store might keep some mock-ups of the magic items (and in the case of a robbery, they'd probably have access to the magic aura spell just so potential thieves will think they're getting something valuable, instead of the actual valuables).

So the worst that would happen on a break-in is some property damage, with the doors, windows, and display cases getting wrecked, and the mock-up magic items getting stolen. The magic items themselves are safely hidden away extradimensionally.

So a destructive robbery would wreck the joint, which would have to be fixed, and the fake magic items would be stolen, which would need replaced. However, none of it is very expensive compared to the actual stock, so the store would be closed for a few days for repairs but back up shortly thereafter, with little lost.

The easiest way to effectually rob such a place is to use Diplomacy to convince the staff to give some "free samples." Mind control wouldn't work, since they'd be warded against such, and violence would just lead to the staff's low-level contingent teleportation 'porting them to safety.

[Jack_Simth]

Any magic shop worth the magic it's based on is going to keep all of its stock in an extradimensional space that's impossible to rob. For instance, rope trick is a great lowish-level way to store valuables if you're attached to a specific locale.

The store might keep some mock-ups of the magic items (and in the case of a robbery, they'd probably have access to the magic aura spell just so potential thieves will think they're getting something valuable, instead of the actual valuables).

So the worst that would happen on a break-in is some property damage, with the doors, windows, and display cases getting wrecked, and the mock-up magic items getting stolen. The magic items themselves are safely hidden away extradimensionally.

So a destructive robbery would wreck the joint, which would have to be fixed, and the fake magic items would be stolen, which would need replaced. However, none of it is very expensive compared to the actual stock, so the store would be closed for a few days for repairs but back up shortly thereafter, with little lost.

The easiest way to effectually rob such a place is to use Diplomacy to convince the staff to give some "free samples." Mind control wouldn't work, since they'd be warded against such, and violence would just lead to the staff's low-level contingent teleportation 'porting them to safety.
OP specified "that operates like any other store" - do you really see those tactics for the store being in common use before magic marts are a thing? Keep in mind this shop is one of the first of it's kind. They haven't had years for the various interactions to soak in the backs of their heads.

Also remember: The OP wants the crooks to succeed.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Any magic shop worth the magic it's based on is going to keep all of its stock in an extradimensional space that's impossible to rob. For instance, rope trick is a great lowish-level way to store valuables if you're attached to a specific locale.

Any items inside fall out when it ends, and the window is invisible when closed, not undetectable.
That means anyone with detect magic or see invis can target it with a dispel.

[icefractal]

OP specified "that operates like any other store" - do you really see those tactics for the store being in common use before magic marts are a thing? Keep in mind this shop is one of the first of it's kind. They haven't had years for the various interactions to soak in the backs of their heads.Magic-item-specific defenses, no, but selling small expensive items is nothing new. The closest pre-existing store would be one that sells gems, or jewelry, or fine art.

Therefore I'd expect similar defenses to one of those -
1) Most product kept in a vault in the back.
2) A limited number of display items out on the shop floor, inside cases and with at least one guard present. Some of them may be non-magic copies for display only. When the shop is closed these go back in the vault.
3) Because of the high value of the items, this probably works more like buying a car than buying milk at the convenience store. You don't take an item from the shelf and go to the register with it. You look around, then tell a member of staff you're interested in buying. They take you to a side room with comfy chairs, maybe get you a glass of wine, bring in the item for you to examine, and discuss payment options (people probably aren't walking around with hundreds of pounds of gold on their person). For the big-ticket items, anyway. Things like low-level potions and scrolls may be more of a conventional shop model.

That's still possible to rob, by various means, just not trivially.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

OP specified "that operates like any other store" - do you really see those tactics for the store being in common use before magic marts are a thing? Keep in mind this shop is one of the first of it's kind. They haven't had years for the various interactions to soak in the backs of their heads.

Also remember: The OP wants the crooks to succeed.In a fantasy world with magic where "any other store" with goods that cost thousands of gp in small, easily-portable packages? Yes, I'd expect them all to use (the equivalent of) a 2nd level spell to protect their goods, else I wouldn't expect them to last for more than a few days, at most, unless they're keeping everything completely under the (magical equivalent of) RADAR.

And if he wants the crooks to succeed, then they should infiltrate via the employees themselves, since they're the weak point.


Any items inside fall out when it ends, and the window is invisible when closed, not undetectable.
That means anyone with detect magic or see invis can target it with a dispel.Rope trick also lasts 1 hour/lvl (or 2, if Extended), and you can't enter a rope trick if it's full and closed up. So just cast it behind a wall where people won't be able to see it easily, keep someone inside to dole out the items (and store the money), with the rope likewise stored inside, and you're largely good.

Is it perfect? No. Is it way better than closing your eyes and hoping people don't steal (hundreds of) thousands of gp from you when magic is on every street corner? Definitely.

[spectralphoenix]

Assuming a fairly low-level caster, Rope Trick still means everything has to come out every couple hours while they recast the spell, making the ideal time for a smash-and-grab.

But yes, I think the ideal method would be to infiltrate the staff. Maybe bring a doppelganger or changeling onto the team so they can impersonate someone, or get one of your guys hired, or subvert an existing employee. For that matter, the entire theft could be masterminded by some of the employees - people are going to be real tempted when they're passing around tens of thousands of gp worth of loot.

[OracleofWuffing]

What I'm asking from you, my friends, is to explain, in detail, how to rob a generic magic mart that operates like any other store. Aim for simplicity and not-so-high levels, please. This is NPC vs. NPC action, which is intended to impress the players.
If you can figure out a way to pull off a shortchanging scam with the denominations involved in D&D, that's a place to start. Something like, pay for a wand of Detect Magic with a platinum piece, while they're counting back your change remember you had a pouch of gold to pay with, and in between distractions and small talk you end up taking back the platinum and the change for the platinum. It's a bit trickier since everything's in gold and base ten, but real-life stores run into this form of theft to this day.

Between illusion Spells and Marvelous Pigments, there are a number of ways to fake currency. Once the transaction is completed, it's all up to how fast the thief can get out of sight. If your game has banking documents or some sort of written royal decrees of funds, well, Forgery is opposed by Forgery- go nuts. Running off the idea of forged documents, bring in a used wand claiming it's defective and a fake receipt of sale, demanding compensation or store credit.

Distractions are always an option, it's not too hard to cause an explosion on the other side of the room or have someone else cause a commotion. Throw in Familiars or Animal Companions and all sorts of shenanigans can be pulled. Even if you walk in with no plan at all, sheer numbers may make it difficult to stop a small army from robbing a store. (All up to the town guard at that point.)

For best effectiveness, combine all of the above at once. Multiple times, with some of the attempts being done while invisible.

The comedy option is to convince the shopkeep to invest in a ponzi scheme, and when it all crashes down, he'll have to sell his livelihood to someone to get out of debt.

[Maat Mons]

If part of your business model is buying magic items, you've got to have someone on hand who can identify magic items. In Pathfinder, that's anyone with Detect Magic. In 3.5, you'll need an Artificer's Monocle, and either a 1st-level Artificer, a 2nd-level Warlock, or a 1st-level Golden Lion Paladin. Or just a Dragonfire Adept, without the need for an Artificer's monocle.

You'll also want some assurance you won't get duped by a Magic Aura spell. Maybe just hit everything with Dispel before you identify it?

If the thieves don't have access to much magic, the first thing that happens after they pull off the robbery is that more magical characters will use divination to find them, and take the magic items for themselves. But maybe the adventuring party hired by the shopkeeper can get to them first. But then again, the shopkeeper only promised the adventurers a finder's fee of 10% of the value of any items they retrieve. So the adventurers themselves might go for the bigger payday and just keep the items.

I suppose a relatively trusting magic item store would put things out in glassteel display cases. The most recent printing is in Champions of Valor, on page 65. It's "completely transparent, lacking the greenish tint of common glass." So it's easy for customers to see the goods. It has hardness 20 and 30 hp per inch of thickness. So smash-and-grab jobs require some pretty solid smashing. And if you make it less than an inch thick, people can still Detect Magic through it, to verify the quality of the goods.

[Bayar]

In a campaign I've been playing in, there was Mario's Magical Emporium, a magic mart franchise open in all major cities. There are no actual magic items inside, only illusions of what items were available for purchase. You'd take a small card and write on it what you wanted to buy, place it in a coffer together with the necessary money. The items appear in the coffer afterwards in exchange for the money. Same with selling magic items, you'd write what you had for sale and the value would appear on the card next to it. Place the items inside the coffer and money would appear in it's place.

What I want to say is, any magic mart that keeps it's stock handy in any way is just begging to be robed. Depending on who the NPC that owns the shop is, we can deduce who robbed them and how.

A member of the royal family that invested all it's fortune in magic items? He would have plenty of guards available for security but plenty of rivals as well. The staff might have been motivated to clean up the shop shortly after the grand opening to humiliate the royalty.

An overzealous artificer? Skilled at making magic items and knowing how to protect them. She'd be able to scan any prospective employees for thieves using magic, have traps laid out for items in display cases and possibly a homunculus or two guarding the shop at all times. Maybe a team of thieves assault the shop late in the night, disabling the traps and fighting the guards before disappearing into the night. The artificer would either be asleep or working in the workshop at a different location when it happens.

The options of using fake money or paperwork is less possible if the shop needs to be robed in 24 hours or less.

[Jack_Simth]

In a fantasy world with magic where "any other store" with goods that cost thousands of gp in small, easily-portable packages? Yes, I'd expect them all to use (the equivalent of) a 2nd level spell to protect their goods, else I wouldn't expect them to last for more than a few days, at most, unless they're keeping everything completely under the (magical equivalent of) RADAR.

And if he wants the crooks to succeed, then they should infiltrate via the employees themselves, since they're the weak point.

Rope trick also lasts 1 hour/lvl (or 2, if Extended), and you can't enter a rope trick if it's full and closed up. So just cast it behind a wall where people won't be able to see it easily, keep someone inside to dole out the items (and store the money), with the rope likewise stored inside, and you're largely good.

Is it perfect? No. Is it way better than closing your eyes and hoping people don't steal (hundreds of) thousands of gp from you when magic is on every street corner? Definitely.

Also: What's the price tag? How quickly do you expect to make sales?

If the person running the place is a Wizard, then it might be "free" - but getting Rope Trick to last all day means two extended castings at 6th, two extended and one not at 5th, six regular castings at 4th, and eight regular castings at 3rd. If they're paying for the spell with spellcasting services, that'd be 360 gp/day for the extended 3rds at CL 6, 400 gp/day for the CL 5 version, 480 gp/day for the CL 4 version, and 480 gp/day for the CL 3 version (per published prices, anyway).

You need to be making sales quickly for that to be affordable. That can be solved with the right items (wondrous architecture from the Stronghold Builder's Guide for the Hole of Hiding, an Eternal Wand of extended rope trick, or similar), but then you're largely presupposing that magic marts already exist and all items are easily available. Sure, the guy running the magic mart is probably going to have access to crafting folks (couldn't run the place otherwise), but that doesn't necessarily mean all things are widely known. OP specified this is one of the first. There's going to be bumps.

[Batcathat]

Also: What's the price tag? How quickly do you expect to make sales?

If the person running the place is a Wizard, then it might be "free" - but getting Rope Trick to last all day means two extended castings at 6th, two extended and one not at 5th, six regular castings at 4th, and eight regular castings at 3rd. If they're paying for the spell with spellcasting services, that'd be 360 gp/day for the extended 3rds at CL 6, 400 gp/day for the CL 5 version, 480 gp/day for the CL 4 version, and 480 gp/day for the CL 3 version (per published prices, anyway).

To be fair, establishing this sort of magic mart likely requires a massive investment to begin with (less if the owners are making the items rather than buying them, but still quite a lot) so adding some cost for security shouldn't make that much of a difference, I think.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah; a few hundred gp per day (assuming a wizard isn't owner or part-owner) to protect (hundreds of) thousands of gp in merchandise is definitely worth it. I'm sure you'd agree that losing hundreds of gp is easier on the business than losing hundreds of thousands?

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah; a few hundred gp per day (assuming a wizard isn't owner or part-owner) to protect (hundreds of) thousands of gp in merchandise is definitely worth it. I'm sure you'd agree that losing hundreds of gp is easier on the business than losing hundreds of thousands?


To be fair, establishing this sort of magic mart likely requires a massive investment to begin with (less if the owners are making the items rather than buying them, but still quite a lot) so adding some cost for security shouldn't make that much of a difference, I think.

Like so many things, the answer is "yes, but..."
In this case, "It's still a business and must make money"
If you are spending x gp every day, you are taking that out of your profits. If your profits can't support the expense, then you are bleeding funds, and will be out of the same number eventually, it'll just take longer.

This is why I paired the question. How quickly do you expect to make sales?

IF you are successfully getting a 50% commission on a 10k item every day on average? Then no big deal, as you say.

If folks aren't that rich, and instead you're averaging one sale a month of 10k with a 50% comission? Any costs of over 166.66.... gp per day will put you in the poor house eventually. It becomes a hard cap on permitted expenses. It's why jewelry stores with huge amounts of inventory don't keep a full SWAT team on standby 24/7.

The OP specifically wanted a way to force things away from actual shops, to somethinga bit more practical: brokers.

"The expense of defending a shop drives folks out of business" is one way.

[Mechalich]

Magic marts are liable to be just as bound to level as everything else. A low-level magic mart will have low-level defenses, but will also only sell low-level items like consumables, minor wondrous items, and +1 gear. A high-level magic mart will sell high-level gear, but will also have high-level defenses. Additionally, due to the rather small number of potential high-level buyers and their wide geographic dispersal it makes even more sense for such a mart to store its goods in an extra-dimensional space of some kind simply because it's going to have storefronts on four different continents at once sharing the same inventory.

It's also important to consider beyond defenses to the vengeance aspect. The ownership of a magic mart will presumably have significant monetary resources, and they may be insured/backed by someone with limitless monetary resources (ex. the Mercane). They will likely, just as modern banks and high end galleries do, take steps to mark their merchandise and identify potential thieves. Stealing 1 million GP from a magic mart gives the owners a huge incentive to send a horde of Inevitables to find you, kill you, and bring their inventory back.

[redking]

Any magic mart is going to have security systems in place commensurate with the value of the merchandise they sell. If the operators of the magic shop are not confident of being able to protect the merchandise, they won't start the business in the first place.

The scenario outlined in the OP begs the question (low level magic mart = low level defences). If there was a serious risk of robbery, this type of business could not exist.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho magic marts shouldn't be involved into the story/plot of a game, unless you want to implement it realistically.

Because a realistic magic mart is something that sole a "high lvl party" could challenge. He has tons of magic items and doesn't know how to set up a few magical traps, alarms, guards, and to defend this stuff is totally unrealistic.

The problem with the realistic magic mart is, why doesn't he help? Why does he not just give the PCs everything for free, so they have a better chance to defend the town the shop is located?
Here you have to rely on some kind of high end magic solution that the magic mart owner simple doesn't need to care. He ensures with his magical stuff a safe and smooth trading platform that can exist without interfering with the plot.

For that magic mart abuses permanent magical doors/gates to a safe demiplane under his full control. These doors/gates are places in almost any bigger town. Thus you always end up at the same magic mart, no matter where you did enter the door/gate.

...
..

As you can see, a realistic magic mart is a thing on its own and goes into the direction of the Tippyverse. And dunno if you want to go that route. (but it could make a nice high lvl plot if you want. "For what is the owner accumulating wealth? Will it be maybe a grand artifact that needs a big portion of the wealth of the multiverse? Who knows his sinister plans? Lets find it out!" ^^)

On the other hand, if you don't want a realistic magic mart, it is best advices to minimize any non-trade interactions to a minimum because of game health/balance. You don't wanna have free/easy loot laying around in ever town.

edit: I recently did pick up a funny "commercial slogan" in the recent Iron Chef round:

MAGIC MARK'S MAGIC MARKET
"Your local magic stuff dealer."
"We have shops in every (!) town."

[sleepyphoenixx]

If part of your business model is buying magic items, you've got to have someone on hand who can identify magic items. In Pathfinder, that's anyone with Detect Magic. In 3.5, you'll need an Artificer's Monocle, and either a 1st-level Artificer, a 2nd-level Warlock, or a 1st-level Golden Lion Paladin. Or just a Dragonfire Adept, without the need for an Artificer's monocle.
In 3.5 you also only need Detect Magic. It's a DC 25 + spell level spellcraft check though.
You can do it with UMD too if you exceed the DC to activate the item by 5.
Both of those rules are in the MIC, p. 217.

And the Artificer's Monocle can be used by anyone capable of casting Detect Magic.

[Jack_Simth]

Any magic mart is going to have security systems in place commensurate with the value of the merchandise they sell. If the operators of the magic shop are not confident of being able to protect the merchandise, they won't start the business in the first place.

The scenario outlined in the OP begs the question (low level magic mart = low level defences). If there was a serious risk of robbery, this type of business could not exist.
They can, just not for overly long.

Lots of folks create businesses that fail - one just needs to convince a sufficient number of investors that it's viable. Sometimes it's the person starting the business who invests (and then they lose their own money), sometimes the person starting the business honestly believes it will work (and is wrong), sometimes the person starting the business is doing it with intent do defraud.



Imho magic marts shouldn't be involved into the story/plot of a game, unless you want to implement it realistically.
Jon_Dahl is fully planning on implementing a viable model (brokers - folks who facilitate sales between those who have stuff and those who have money, never actually owning it themselves; the "inventory" they carry is nothing more than some books - listings of what folks want to sell, and what folks want to buy, with references to ID where they can be found; items are constantly individually owned, and only ever briefly in a broker's hand, there is no giant stockpile to rob). However, the OP explicitly wants to create an illustration within the story of why a "classic" shop doesn't work out. Hence the magic mart robbery.

[the_david]

This is based on 5e, but it's meant to show just how unlikely the idea of a magic item shop is:

- Modest living expenses equal 1 gold piece per day, per person. That means that someone who's living pay check to pay check makes 1 gold piece per day.
- A common magic item costs 50-100 gp, or 75 gp in average. That means that one common item costs as much as you need to live a modest life style for 2 and a half months.
- An uncommon magic item costs 101-500 gp, or 300 gp on average. That's 10 months worth of living expenses.

Based on this, it's unlikely that the majority of the population can afford to buy magic items. There simply wouldn't be a demand for magic items to begin with. Even if someone wanted to set up a magic shop, they can't because they can't get suppliers. They'd have to make everything themselves, and that would mean that it's easier to just make magic items on commission. This leads me to the following alternatives:

- Buying magic items on commission.
- A black market where you can find someone who can "procure" the item for you.
- Somebody tells you that you might be able to find the magic item in some old forgotten ruins.

All of these seem like a lot more fun than a shopping session, because shopping sessions suck the live blood out of me. If you really want magic shops, you should just limit it to low level scrolls, potions and spell components.

One way to subvert this is to let the players walk into a struggling magic shop that will have magic items soon. They won't because they don't have a supplier, and they've got problems because they made a deal with a local loan shark.

The bandits aren't going to rob a magic store, ofcourse. They're going to rob the PCs, because they've been showing off their wealth to the general populace and word gets around.

Or you could just do whatever you want. The economy doesn't make any sense in D&D, so who cares?

[Batcathat]

- Modest living expenses equal 1 gold piece per day, per person. That means that someone who's living pay check to pay check makes 1 gold piece per day.
- A common magic item costs 50-100 gp, or 75 gp in average. That means that one common item costs as much as you need to live a modest life style for 2 and a half months.
- An uncommon magic item costs 101-500 gp, or 300 gp on average. That's 10 months worth of living expenses.

Couldn't the same be said for something like a car in the real world, though? Granted, people often take loans to buy those, but I could imagine doing something similar in a fantasy setting (a city developed enough to have a magic mart would presumably have banking too).

[Jack_Simth]

This is based on 5e, but it's meant to show just how unlikely the idea of a magic item shop is:

- Modest living expenses equal 1 gold piece per day, per person. That means that someone who's living pay check to pay check makes 1 gold piece per day.
- A common magic item costs 50-100 gp, or 75 gp in average. That means that one common item costs as much as you need to live a modest life style for 2 and a half months.
- An uncommon magic item costs 101-500 gp, or 300 gp on average. That's 10 months worth of living expenses.

Based on this, it's unlikely that the majority of the population can afford to buy magic items.Mostly true. In both 3.5 and Pathfinder, Craft and Profession both let you gain 1/2 check result per week of work. A simple 4 ranks (or 1 rank and it being a class skill) lets you take ten to get a consistent 14 - which is 7 gp. Skill focus as one of your feats? Now a 17, for 8.5 gp. Masterwork tool (20 gp)? Now a 19, for 9.5 gp/week - and that's with a relevant ability score of 10. 2.5 gp/week to save.

So if folks train for something (skill focus + ranks), they'll have a little spending cash in addition to their living expenses. It can build up. Just, you know, not quickly.

Setting that aside, though: You're more like a car dealership. You're not selling new cars to high school graduates, you're selling them to folks who're out of college and want a car to get to their office job. You're not selling to level 1 commoners, you're selling to the 2+'s, likely with class levels. Folks won't be buying every day, but you don't necessarily need to make a sale every day to make a profit.

But you do have to budget and watch your expenses. One of which is defending the place....

[Maat Mons]

I didn't know 3.5 had rules for identifying items with just Detect Magic and Spellcraft. That's cool.

The classes I listed are the ones that have Detect Magic at will... and Artificer.



There are some substantial jumps in earning power in 3.5. Someone with no ranks in any Profession makes one silver piece per day. Someone with 1 rank and a -5 ability modifier makes 3 gold pieces per week. More than quadruple the income by spending a single skill point. Or, probably, more than a sevenfold increase, if you have average Wisdom.

Also, I think there was something somewhere in 3.5 saying that farmers earned basically no money. I can't find it though.

[Jack_Simth]

I didn't know 3.5 had rules for identifying items with just Detect Magic and Spellcraft. That's cool.

The classes I listed are the ones that have Detect Magic at will... and Artificer.



There are some substantial jumps in earning power in 3.5. Someone with no ranks in any Profession makes one silver piece per day. Someone with 1 rank and a -5 ability modifier makes 3 gold pieces per week. More than quadruple the income by spending a single skill point. Or, probably, more than a sevenfold increase, if you have average Wisdom.

Also, I think there was something somewhere in 3.5 saying that farmers earned basically no money. I can't find it though.

Yes and no.

When you're paying an untrained laborer (or a skilled laborer, for that matter) by the day, you're also supposed to be covering their basic living expenses (food, shelter), which means they have basically no expenses. When you're making a living with Craft or Profession, you don't have that kind of boss, and need to cover food and rent yourself.

[Telonius]

My personal preference for something like this: Kick down the door. Pull out a single scroll that's clearly labeled "Disjunction." Activate. Set down the spent scroll. Leave.

Stealing the items really isn't the issue, though that's part of it. Magic Mart is trying to horn in on the existing commissions market. Meaning, they have a lot of very powerful, very wealthy people who have an interest in destroying that kind of competition. Stealing a whole bunch of magic items is good and all, but stolen items can be recovered. The person behind this wants to ruin Magic Mart, yeah. But they also want to very clearly demonstrate that they are absolutely not messing around, and they will be pulling out the nukes if anybody tries anything remotely like this in the future.

[Jack_Simth]

My personal preference for something like this: Kick down the door. Pull out a single scroll that's clearly labeled "Disjunction." Activate. Set down the spent scroll. Leave.

Stealing the items really isn't the issue, though that's part of it. Magic Mart is trying to horn in on the existing commissions market. Meaning, they have a lot of very powerful, very wealthy people who have an interest in destroying that kind of competition. Stealing a whole bunch of magic items is good and all, but stolen items can be recovered. The person behind this wants to ruin Magic Mart, yeah. But they also want to very clearly demonstrate that they are absolutely not messing around, and they will be pulling out the nukes if anybody tries anything remotely like this in the future.
The local mob equivalent says "How can I profit from this?" and starts a protection racket.
The thieves guild asks the same question, and robs the place blind.
The king taxes them.
The guild drops a bomb.

[rel]

A magic mart is a very large concentration of wealth, a kings ransom in a single place.
This attracts high level attention.
Here are a few variants:

The high level evil wizard that rules the mega-dungeon of dread teleported into the item storage vault, disabled the traps, alarms and guardians, took everything remotely valuable and left behind a mildly insulting thankyou note on the way out.
No one knows how the supposedly unbreakable defenses were bypassed, and everyone is reluctant to journey to the 20th level of the dungeon of dread to make inquiries.

Some clients have complained about being tricked. On investigation, it seems the vault was emptied some weeks ago with each item replaced with a high quality duplicate.
All the alarms and defences remain intact and the guards never saw anything.
Everyone says the master thief leader of the thieves guild came out of retirement for one last heist.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A small number of handy haversacks to store merchandise in that are hidden elsewhere would certainly be preferable to leaving stock lying around where any- and everyone can touch them. At the very least, have a list of items for sale; clients come in, ask what you have (or just browse the list), and pay you half now and half on delivery at an agreed-upon time later in the day. You send off the list of items needed to where stuff is stored, and you exchange the items for the remainder of their price.

Alternatively, take a familiar with at-will teleport, and have it retrieve the items and store the money away as needed.

Definitely don't just have stock sitting on shelves, and if someone wants to try out an item, insist on an up-front deposit, first, with a heavy surcharge for any item charges spent (especially for limited-use items like wands).

[Reversefigure4]

Couldn't the same be said for something like a car in the real world, though? Granted, people often take loans to buy those, but I could imagine doing something similar in a fantasy setting (a city developed enough to have a magic mart would presumably have banking too).

Cars are not easily stolen from the lot, since you can't put them in your pocket or your bag of holding and then walk off with them. Cars also have numbers that identify them, which you have to go to some trouble to remove in the event that you can steal them. A smash and grab raid for cars is doable, but you need a driver for each car to physically get them off the lot, so you need a lot of thieves.

Jewellery stores, on the other hand, are a real world concept that contain highly valuable small items that are easily stolen. They also routinely have guards to prevent violent theft, alarms to summon the police quickly, and customers cannot easily handle the merchandise to prevent shoplifting. Even then, they still get broken into routinely (and have insurance to cover that risk). Street buskers who sell jewellery without these precautions sell cheap jewellery to mitigate their risk. Medieval jewellers operating without security cameras crafted on commission - the client paid up front and then the jewellery was made, rather than the client picking from a large premade selection.

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OP, to rob a magic mart with the security of your average medieval general goods store requires no particular subtlety or finesse. It's simple and doesn't require finesse or high levels. At the basic thuggish end, 4 armed ruffians walk in and stab the shopkeeper, then load everything in the store into their cart (or bag of holding, if they're well funded enough to start with), then simply leave with 10,000gp worth of magical gear. The harder part for them will be fencing the items, although the profits margins are high enough to justify travelling a considerable distance to another city to sell them there.

A less thuggish approach breaks a window or picks a lock at night - no alarms or traps, remember - and simply loads up quietly while there's no shopkeeper and no guards.

Easy peasy. The hard part is imagining that a magic mart would even operate like this in the first place, but you could establish that the owner is a foolish but well funded noble fop who hasn't thought through the consequences (even then, though, he's going to pay a bounty to some adventurers who can track or spellcast to bring the thieves to justice and return his merchandise).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Easy peasy. The hard part is imagining that a magic mart would even operate like this in the first place, but you could establish that the owner is a foolish but well funded noble fop who hasn't thought through the consequences (even then, though, he's going to pay a bounty to some adventurers who can track or spellcast to bring the thieves to justice and return his merchandise).Bonus points if the people he hires are the same ones who robbed him in the first place, and they convince him to pay up-front.