IFCC theory

[mjasghar]

With the progress of the plot so far and likely remaining number of strips, I suspect the fiends plot will be moving to fruition soon.
So let’s look at their aims - seemingly it’s to move the Snarl to the Good planes.
But this is the divine casting part of the ritual. Meanwhile we have a potential for Redcloak to turn against Xykon. But that requires breaking his sunk cost. That sunk cost depends on Xykon cooperating.
So here’s an idea. The fiends approach Xykon with a divine caster who can cast the divine half of the spell. He no longer needs Redcloak.
This means Redcloak has to abandon the Plan unless he finds another epic arcane caster (maybe a boosted V?).
So I think we will see a big arc of Team Evil infighting with Redcloak getting kicked out by Xykon and being forced to ask the Order for help.

[InvisibleBison]

So let’s look at their aims - seemingly it’s to move the Snarl to the Good planes.

It is? Why do you think this?


Also, this theory seems to be based on a misunderstanding of what the ritual does. As Redcloak explains (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html), the ritual modifies a gate so that the Dark One can move it and its rift to another plane at will. The Dark One having control is an inherent part of the ritual, not a choice that can be made differently. For the IFCC to do as you suggest, they'd have to develop an entirely new ritual, which may well not need two casters.

Also also, I'm pretty sure there are fiends who can cast arcane spells, so even if everything is as you suggest the IFCC wouldn't need Xykon.

[H_H_F_F]

Also also, I'm pretty sure there are fiends who can cast arcane spells, so even if everything is as you suggest the IFCC wouldn't need Xykon.

Even if there aren't any: one of the few things we know for a fact about the IFCC is that they can command and control the souls of epic arcane casters.

[Peelee]

Even if there aren't any: one of the few things we know for a fact about the IFCC is that they can command and control the souls of epic arcane casters.

Can they? We know they can splice souls to other living people. We don't know they can force the souls to do whatever they want. It sounds to me more like a work furlough for the damned.

[H_H_F_F]

Can they? We know they can splice souls to other living people. We don't know they can force the souls to do whatever they want. It sounds to me more like a work furlough for the damned.

I mean, sure. Maybe all they can do with these souls is splice them.

Still, that means that every first level caster in the world is fair game - or any caster experienced enough to hold one splice for the duration of the ritual. They really don't need an epic level stubborn lich for this.

[Peelee]

I mean, sure. Maybe all they can do with these souls is splice them.

Still, that means that every first level caster in the world is fair game - or any caster experienced enough to hold one splice for the duration of the ritual. They really don't need an epic level stubborn lich for this.

Oh, sure. I agree with your overall point. That was just a minor nit to pick.

[mjasghar]

But iirc only Xykon and Redcloak have the ritual. There’s no evidence the fiends have it so they need to approach one of them.

[Metastachydium]

But iirc only Xykon and Redcloak have the ritual.

Not exactly. Only Redcloak has the Ritual. He did give Xykon a transcript of the arcane half, but Xykon barely understands that and has no access whatsoever to the divine half. The IFCC could probably plug another arcane caster in Xykon's place, but gaining access to the divine half would neccessitate
1. getting hold of the Crimson Mantle;
2. finding a cleric of Big Purple
3. of a sufficiently high level;
4. and somehow convince that cleric to work with Xykon
5. against the high priest of their church.

[mjasghar]

My error
Of course that raises the issue of how the ifcc think they are going to control the gate
Obviously the roaches are their spies so they likely know what it can do etc from them.
I guess we will have to wait to see who or what the vessel/artefact is going to be.

[Peelee]

But iirc only Xykon and Redcloak have the ritual. There’s no evidence the fiends have it so they need to approach one of them.

Redcloak's ritual gives control to The Dark One. The fiends wouldn't need or want that. They could probably come up with their own, is how I'm understanding the theory.


I don't think they will, but that would work well, presumably.

[dancrilis]

Of course that raises the issue of how the ifcc think they are going to control the gate
.

They don't care about the Gate specifically they want the world destroyed/the Snarl unleashed and they don't seem to care how that happens.

[Crimsonmantle]

They don't care about the Gate specifically they want the world destroyed/the Snarl unleashed and they don't seem to care how that happens.
Then they should approach Redcloak with a more pliable arcane caster, indeed should have done so long ago.

Well, maybe not. Not if they want it unleashed on this plane specifically. Nor if they think the Gods acceding to TDO's demands after he controls the gate is a real possibility.

[Peelee]

They don't care about the Gate specifically they want the world destroyed/the Snarl unleashed and they don't seem to care how that happens.
Do they?

[dancrilis]

Do they?

Such is my reading of panel 6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html).

Note the 'the world destroyed/the Snarl unleashed' was intended to be read as at least one of these options - and the reasons that they might want either option (or both) is unknown at this time.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Such is my reading of panel 6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html).

Note the 'the world destroyed/the Snarl unleashed' was intended to be read as at least one of these options - and the reasons that they might want either option (or both) is unknown at this time.

I mean, if Hel's efforts had been successful, that would have been the upshot, although I get the sense that this might not have been their ultimate goal so much as an acceptable one. "We don't really want to destroy the world, but hey, it getting destroyed would be the silver prize for what we want."

[Ruck]

What we know for sure about what the IFCC wants seems to be "destructive unnecessary conflict (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)"-- the kind "that has held the fiendish races back for all these millennia."

Presumably, they want this conflict to occupy the gods and mortals while they unite the devils, daemons, and demons and storm the gates of the Upper Planes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html).

But we still don't know exactly what that has to do with the Snarl or with the world's destruction.

Through the lens of the above two strips, my best-guess interpretation of the strip dancrilis linked is that the gods destroying the world and Hel taking over the Northern Pantheon would result in much more conflict between the gods and/or weakening them in a way that would make their ultimate plan much more likely to succeed.

There's so much yet to be revealed to us about their plans, and so little we know about them, that speculation is going to be all over the place. Hence why my own guess is a relatively rough sketch; I'm not confident being more specific on so little evidence.

[Peelee]

What we know for sure about what the IFCC wants seems to be "destructive unnecessary conflict (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)"-- the kind "that has held the fiendish races back for all these millennia."

Presumably, they want this conflict to occupy the gods and mortals while they unite the devils, daemons, and demons and storm the gates of the Upper Planes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html).

But we still don't know exactly what that has to do with the Snarl or with the world's destruction.

Through the lens of the above two strips, my best-guess interpretation of the strip dancrilis linked is that the gods destroying the world and Hel taking over the Northern Pantheon would result in much more conflict between the gods and/or weakening them in a way that would make their ultimate plan much more likely to succeed.

There's so much yet to be revealed to us about their plans, and so little we know about them, that speculation is going to be all over the place. Hence why my own guess is a relatively rough sketch; I'm not confident being more specific on so little evidence.

Hel becoming queen of the Northern Pantheon sure sounds like a step in the direction they want to go in. Not a necessary step, but a positive one if it happens to work out that way all on its own.

[Ruck]

Hel becoming queen of the Northern Pantheon sure sounds like a step in the direction they want to go in. Not a necessary step, but a positive one if it happens to work out that way all on its own.

Agreed; my fourth paragraph is my surmise as to why that would be the case, given what we know about their goals.

[Metastachydium]

What we know for sure about what the IFCC wants seems to be "destructive unnecessary conflict (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)"

I don't think so, no. Let's take another look at the strip in question:


Nero: The truly important thing is the overall struggle between Xykon and the Order of the Stick. (…) The truth is, we don't want EITHER side to really win.
Lee: We want for them the same thing that has held the fiendish races back for all these millenia.
Cedrik: We want conflict.
Nero: Destructive unneccessary conflict.
Cedrik: The worst thing that could happen would be a victory by one team.


Emphasis mine. It is quite clear that they don't mind destructive unneccessary conflict in general (v. the way they describe the Linears), but the context seems to imply quite strongly that it's not their end goal, but, rather, such a(n ongoing) conflict between Xykon and the Order, specifically (I wonder how Redcloak figures into this, by the way) is a means to achieve this nebulous end.

[Ruck]

I don't think so, no. Let's take another look at the strip in question:


Emphasis mine. It is quite clear that they don't mind destructive unneccessary conflict in general (v. the way they describe the Linears), but the context seems to imply quite strongly that it's not their end goal, but, rather, such a(n ongoing) conflict between Xykon and the Order, specifically (I wonder how Redcloak figures into this, by the way) is a means to achieve this nebulous end.


Presumably, they want this conflict to occupy the gods and mortals while they unite the devils, daemons, and demons and storm the gates of the Upper Planes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html).

In context, I will say that strip looks to be more specific to why they wanted conflict between Xykon and the Order, rather than more generally in the world. But I never said the destructive conflict was their end goal; quite the opposite.

[Metastachydium]

In context, I will say that strip looks to be more specific to why they wanted conflict between Xykon and the Order, rather than more generally in the world. But I never said the destructive conflict was their end goal; quite the opposite.

Alright, fair. Still, while they are certainly powerful and I'm confident they have many assets we haven't seen yet, uniting the Lower Planes and storming the Upper ones is something currently above their pay grade; most of the mortals have no idea what's going on so the whole deal with the Gates won't affect their lives in any tangible manner until the fight for them concludes in one way or the other; and the gods have dumb god rules that leave them with precious few options beyond destroying the world (which the Directors find an acceptable outcome).

[Ruck]

Alright, fair. Still, while they are certainly powerful and I'm confident they have many assets we haven't seen yet, uniting the Lower Planes and storming the Upper ones is something currently above their pay grade; most of the mortals have no idea what's going on so the whole deal with the Gates won't affect their lives in any tangible manner until the fight for them concludes in one way or the other; and the gods have dumb god rules that leave them with precious few options beyond destroying the world (which the Directors find an acceptable outcome).

Yeah, I mean, we know so little about the IFCC's plans and intentions that there are huge gaps to fill in. I did the best I could connecting their ultimate goal to their immediate one, but I don't really know how you get from A to B there either.

[Metastachydium]

Yeah, I mean, we know so little about the IFCC's plans and intentions that there are huge gaps to fill in. I did the best I could connecting their ultimate goal to their immediate one, but I don't really know how you get from A to B there either.

Step 1: Destructive unnecessary conflict.
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Profit!

[Dame_Mechanus]

Step 1: Destructive unnecessary conflict.
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Profit!

Destructive unnecessary conflict did so much good for fiendish races that everyone should get some!

[Ruck]

Step 1: Destructive unnecessary conflict.
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Profit!

Haha, I honestly did think of that when I was writing up that last post.

[littlebum2002]

Redcloak's ritual gives control to The Dark One..

Do we know this? It may be that the ritual gives control of the rift to whoever the divine caster wants to grant that control to. Of course since only the bearer of the Crimson Mantle knows the divine half of the ritual, this would in practice mean that control would be given to the Dark One, but it seems to me that most magic in D&D is adaptable enough that something like this ritual could also be used for different deities, just by substituting their name into the ritual at the appropriate time.

[Peelee]

Do we know this?

Yes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html) .

[dancrilis]

Yes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html) .

Technically he says, 'the ritual also gives control of what plane the gate arrives at to my deity' and then he mentions his deity's name - but it could be read that if he converted to a different deity the ritual would give control to that deity instead.

[Peelee]

Technically he says, 'the ritual also gives control of what plane the gate arrives at to my deity' and then he mentions his deity's name - but it could be read that if he converted to a different deity the ritual would give control to that deity instead.

And technically a burrito is a type of wrap but if you try to order one from a sandwich place you're going to go hungry.

He says it transfers control of the Gate to The Dark One. Tsukiko, a cleric who was able to detect duplicity in the spell, did not question this. I don't have much credence for "well, technically, the wording could be weaseled..." claims.

[InvisibleBison]

Technically he says, 'the ritual also gives control of what plane the gate arrives at to my deity' and then he mentions his deity's name - but it could be read that if he converted to a different deity the ritual would give control to that deity instead.

I don't see why the Dark One would create a ritual that could be used to empower some other deity. Also, the divine half of the ritual is stored within the Crimson Mantle, which presumably only functions for a priest of the Dark One.

[brian 333]

The thing about magic in D&D is that the rules are the same for everyone.

We don't know which rules apply.

Is the ritual like a PC researched custom spell that only it's researcher knows? Does it require the active intervention of a deity? Is the cloak a required material component?

Presumably, any deity could perform the research and create a ritual similar to The Dark One's ritual. We have seen no such attempts, but that's no real obstacle.

Whether TDO's ritual can be used by other deities to move the gate where they wish is another story. Given his degree of paranoid, I'd bet he has fail-safes embedded in the ritual.

My quatloos are on, control defaults to TDO regardless who enacts the ritual, unless someone empowers a bluecloak. Or graycloak. Or whatever.

[KorvinStarmast]

My quatloos are on, control defaults to TDO regardless who enacts the ritual, unless someone empowers a bluecloak. Or graycloak. Or whatever. Let's leave Gandalf in Middle Earth, shall we? :smallcool:

[Ellye]

I think there's a crucial question that the comics never answered:

What exactly survives a do-over of the world? What is erased?

That the material plane is erased and remade is a given. But what about those other planes? Are they just a part of "this" world and would, therefore, be erased with it? Or are they truly "outside" of this world and have always existed?

I theorize that most of the planes, except for the Astral one, are "part of the world". They were all created in this iteration of the world, and will die with this iteration of the world.

Why? Because, otherwise, every single outsider would know the truth about the world being constantly destroyed and remade. Celia and Sabine would know it. We never had any hint whatsoever of them knowing about the fact that the material plane gets deleted every once in a while, so I summarize that their planes also never existed before this iteration.

With that in mind, I think the gods erasing the world would erase the lower planes and the Fiends too. The only thing that survives the erasure of the world is the gods themselves, nothing else (and, sometimes, not even all of them).

If the IFCC somehow managed to discover that information, they might actually be laboring to save this world in their own twisted way. They want to keep existing, after all.

[Peelee]

I think there's a crucial question that the comics never answered:

What exactly survives a do-over of the world? What is erased?

The comic explicitly answered that (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html).

[littlebum2002]

And technically a burrito is a type of wrap but if you try to order one from a sandwich place you're going to go hungry.

He says it transfers control of the Gate to The Dark One. Tsukiko, a cleric who was able to detect duplicity in the spell, did not question this. I don't have much credence for "well, technically, the wording could be weaseled..." claims.

Yeah I have to agree. The way he worded it makes it sound like the Dark One is the only option of a target of the ritual. Otherwise he would have said "to my deity", or something like that.

[Elanfanforlife]

I think there's a crucial question that the comics never answered:

What exactly survives a do-over of the world? What is erased?

That the material plane is erased and remade is a given. But what about those other planes? Are they just a part of "this" world and would, therefore, be erased with it? Or are they truly "outside" of this world and have always existed?

I theorize that most of the planes, except for the Astral one, are "part of the world". They were all created in this iteration of the world, and will die with this iteration of the world.

Why? Because, otherwise, every single outsider would know the truth about the world being constantly destroyed and remade. Celia and Sabine would know it. We never had any hint whatsoever of them knowing about the fact that the material plane gets deleted every once in a while, so I summarize that their planes also never existed before this iteration.

With that in mind, I think the gods erasing the world would erase the lower planes and the Fiends too. The only thing that survives the erasure of the world is the gods themselves, nothing else (and, sometimes, not even all of them).

If the IFCC somehow managed to discover that information, they might actually be laboring to save this world in their own twisted way. They want to keep existing, after all.
It was stated in the comic that the outsiders all have their minds wiped. Presumably in certain worlds, like sci-fi ones, they simply get rid of most of the outsiders.

[dancrilis]

Yeah I have to agree. The way he worded it makes it sound like the Dark One is the only option of a target of the ritual. Otherwise he would have said "to my deity", or something like that.

I am not sure if you are joking but he did say 'to my deity' then he names his deity - whether he named his deity for clarity as to who he meant, or whether he named his deity as a clarification as 'to my deity' was not accurate is unknown.

[mjasghar]

It was stated in the comic that the outsiders all have their minds wiped. Presumably in certain worlds, like sci-fi ones, they simply get rid of most of the outsiders.

More likely they remake most of them and you get leftover stuff eg fruit pie sorcerer and the ranch dressing elemental plane.
After all, the gods still exist and presumably have clerics even in sci fi settings as they need the various types of belief. So it’s unlikely that any of the worlds had no magic and impossible that any were atheistic.
Remember many of those worlds lasted seconds since it took billions of worlds to get to surviving a few thousand years.

[Metastachydium]

More likely they remake most of them and you get leftover stuff eg fruit pie sorcerer and the ranch dressing elemental plane.
After all, the gods still exist and presumably have clerics even in sci fi settings as they need the various types of belief. So it’s unlikely that any of the worlds had no magic and impossible that any were atheistic.
Remember many of those worlds lasted seconds since it took billions of worlds to get to surviving a few thousand years.

Also, all those worlds absolutely had to have afterlives (because those are a vital part of the soul economy, the only reason why the gods are still doing this), and these afterlives are known to be staffed by outsiders.

[hamishspence]

More likely they remake most of them and you get leftover stuff eg fruit pie sorcerer and the ranch dressing elemental plane.
After all, the gods still exist and presumably have clerics even in sci fi settings as they need the various types of belief. So it’s unlikely that any of the worlds had no magic and impossible that any were atheistic.

I could see the "sci-fi version of celestials and fiends" being the Vorlons and the Shadows (Babylon Five) or the Prophets and the Pah-wraiths (Deep Space Nine).

I think a point was made of how The Giant was a big fan of Babylon Five in War & XPs commentary. Didn't he even name the site itself as a reference to lines from Babylon Five?

From the season 4 episode The Long Night:


"It's like two giants fighting in a sandbox."

...

"Giants in the playground."

[Metastachydium]

I could see the "sci-fi version of celestials and fiends" being the Vorlons and the Shadows (Babylon Five)

Isn't neither of those being particularly good news kind of a point in that show?

[hamishspence]

Yup. Closer to CN and LN than CE and LG. But both are very "outsider-like".

[Metastachydium]

Granted. You may be on to something there.

[SlashDash]

The way I understood the dialogue, is that the IFCC wants the world to be destroyed.
Why exactly? that's not clear.

My guess is that they found some way to avoid the memory wipe and thus remember previous worlds or at least enough to understand about the Snarl that they can make a move on their own.

They plan to do something as part of the world destruction (or perhaps the recreation of the new one?) that would put them on top.

That explains why they hoped Hel would do the work for them, and get the gods to destroy the world. That explains why they wants OOTS and Xykon to fight each other. They know it will lead the gods to destroy the world eventually.