Thaumaturgy + 2 of : Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion, Mage Hand

[Eradis]

Playing a Bard of Eloquence from the Silverquill College (Strixhaven). This means I will have a total of 4 cantrips.

Those from my background already chosen are Vicious Mockery (of course) and Thaumaturgy. Now I have my Bard cantrips to learn and am having trouble choosing two out of these three: Mage Hand, Prestidigitation and Minor Illusion.

I think Mage hand will have more practical use than the other two (life-saving practical use), but the other two are also amazing...

What do you think O Mighty Community?

EDIT: I also have to choose one spell Level 1 that will be accessible from either the Bard or Cleric spell list using my Charisma as spellcasting ability. Still unsure about this one. Since it has a free use, I want to go with a sure thing.

[Amechra]

I'd go with Mage Hand and Minor Illusion. Prestidigitation is already kinda covered by Thaumaturgy.

[Eradis]

I'd go with Mage Hand and Minor Illusion. Prestidigitation is already kinda covered by Thaumaturgy.

I know a few things are, but I see Prestidigitation really like a Swiss-knife of spellcasting. The cleaning and soiling part of the spell is amazing for avoiding the wrong look when drenched in crimson battle marks; the food alteration is divine to pass yourself as a chef or to mask poison; you can actually light or snuff a campfire...

If this was an option, I would have taken Prestidigitation over Thaumaturgy (even if I love those alteration of eyes, tremors and flickering of flames and doors).

Honestly, being a spellcasting in a Fantasy World such as D&D, I would chase mostly these cantrips and feel like I could do anything in the World.

Also: If it wasn't for the backgrounds that add cantrips, I would have chosen Vicious Mockery and Prestidigitation.

[meandean]

I'd go with Mage Hand and Minor Illusion.Agreed.

I also have to choose one spell Level 1 that will be accessible from either the Bard or Cleric spell list using my Charisma as spellcasting ability. Still unsure about this one. Since it has a free use, I want to go with a sure thing.It's probably tempting to snag one of the good Cleric-specific spells (bless, protection from evil and good, sanctuary). But, assuming that you can cast the spell as you like if it's on your spell list, I'd just pick a Bard spell that you'd want anyway, e.g. healing word. Bard isn't as limited a spell selection as Sorcerer, but you're still going to want to take a lot more Bard spells than you're allowed to. This can take a little pressure off that.

[solidork]

I'd take Prestidigitation and Minor Illusion - they've been more routinely useful in my experience. There will be those situations where Mage Hand is the exact thing you need, but the short duration makes it impractical for doing things like "carry this torch so my hands are free".

I was SUPER impressed by Sanctuary on my Artificer, and would jump at the chance to take it on my Bard.

[Eradis]

Agreed.
It's probably tempting to snag one of the good Cleric-specific spells (bless, protection from evil and good, sanctuary). But, assuming that you can cast the spell as you like if it's on your spell list, I'd just pick a Bard spell that you'd want anyway, e.g. healing word. Bard isn't as limited a spell selection as Sorcerer, but you're still going to want to take a lot more Bard spells than you're allowed to. This can take a little pressure off that.


I'd take Prestidigitation and Minor Illusion - they've been more routinely useful in my experience. There will be those situations where Mage Hand is the exact thing you need, but the short duration makes it impractical for doing things like "carry this torch so my hands are free".

I was SUPER impressed by Sanctuary on my Artificer, and would jump at the chance to take it on my Bard.

I think I will get Mage Hand later. The more and more I think about it, the more Minor Illusion and Prestidigitation feel like having many spells into one (two).

As for the Extra spell with one free use, I think I will stay within the Bard Spell list (Healing Word is on both Priest and Bard). So far I'm going for these : Disguise Self, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word and Silvery Barbs. Since I am playing a Changeling, I believe I will use Disguise Self more often, so having a free use seems fitting. Silvery Barbs looks also excellent but usable only in combat.

[Tanarii]

Definitely Mage Hand and Minor Illusion. Prestidigitation doesn't actually do very much useful, unless your DM allows you to use it far more flexibly than it is written. Or you don't mind burning a cantrip slot for your adventure to survive the hardships of dirty clothing and tasteless food.

[Eradis]

Definitely Mage Hand and Minor Illusion. Prestidigitation doesn't actually do very much useful, unless your DM allows you to use it far more flexibly than it is written. Or you don't mind burning a cantrip slot for your adventure to survive the hardships of dirty clothing and tasteless food.

Trying to charm your way pass a guard with muddied clothes is tougher than it looks. =P

I think that if I need to open a door that might be trapped, I will try to convince my friends that it is safe. If it isn't, I'll find new friends. Although I will be missing out on an amazing cantrip.

[Kenny_Snoggins]

Those from my background already chosen are Vicious Mockery (of course) and Thaumaturgy. Now I have my Bard cantrips to learn and am having trouble choosing two out of these three: Mage Hand, Prestidigitation and Minor Illusion.

I think Mage hand will have more practical use than the other two (life-saving practical use), but the other two are also amazing...

It's likely that someone else in the party will have mage hand, and it's not really something you need duplicated too much in the party. And looking down the road, Telekinetic is one of the best feats and gives you a super duper invisible mage hand so if you have even a slight lean toward Telekinetic I would pass on it for now as the extra range is not likely to be a bonus worth missing out on another at will magic effect.

Prestigitation can have some uses because the image generated is not static so you can cast it on a playing card or something to change the face value or slap fake military insignia on your armor, whatever. It's normally a pretty meh spell but in the class 50% dedicated to lying straight to peopes face it has quite a bit more utility. Deception is one of your real core strengths and prestigitation supports that more than any other cantrip.

Minor Illusion has saved my PCs life more than any other non-damaging cantrip, by a lot. It explicitly allows you to reproduce the roars/growls of apex predators so with a little research before heading out, you can make like a basilisk mating call when you hear rustling in the bush up to the volume of a scream. Dangerous but not particularly intelligent mobs setting up to attack the party then probably get put into an insight vs deception check, which when they are going against you, an eloquence bard, they have almost no prayer of succeeding and they will bug out most of the time if your DM is being fair. You can pair that with prestigitation next turn to put the odor of the big monster in the air to reinforce the Illusion.

If you're already in sight of them, not just earshot (noseshot?) you can make it an avian monster sound/ 3x shadows on the ground with that combo and maybe buy the party a turn or two to dash away, get up a tree, or ready actions depending on the situation. It's a pretty reliable tactic in my experience playing a lot of eloquence bards. Especially if you explicitly RP out a conversation with your druid/ranger/nature cleric etc guy to get a good idea of what calls and smells to make. Just don't make my mistake and use the same scare-away illusory monster's mating call too many times or a droll DM will have a member of that species of the opposite sex appear in a very um, engorged and emotionally volatile state, let's call it. Fair point to him, it was hilarious.

So those two can absolutely save your life. In combat, Minor Illusion is more valuable, since RAW you could sit in your Minor Illusioned ""abandoned crate"" or whatever and have total concealment while still being able to see out since the Illusion is faint to you, allowing you to cast a spell from inside your imaginary box that can't be counterspelled, as you can't be seen, and the counterspelling caster must use an action to discern the Illusion, which of course he won't have since he only gets one reaction worth of time to get his counterspell off. More broadly, you can use it to try and hide elemental hazards like say a cloud of daggers in the hallway as you run from guards, Wizard pops off cloud of daggers, you make it invisible, a whole column of dashing guards take the "will it blend" challenge as they run up the what appears to be empty hallway. And you have to stand up for yourself with it, RAW passive perception etc is not enough, someone has to burn an action to even try to detect it.

Vicious Mockery is iconic... but sucks. The rider only makes sense if you are fighting something with only one or two extremely powerful attacks, and a low enough plus to hit that they won't scoff at disadvantage on a single attack. I've literally never had an encounter, ever, that fits that profile. If you don't multiclass, then your damage cantrip is called "hand crossbow". Don't be afraid to use weapons even though you're a full caster and not one of the "combat" bards. You're not some wincing wizard, you're a bard! A man of the world! You know which end of the sword goes into the Goblins guts. At low level don't be afraid to go medieval on them and don't sweat not having an at will damage cantrip. That's part of the theme, but it gets lost since everyone multiclasses warlock in. Anyway, if you can I would drop Viscous Mockery. The fun of it is insulting people as you pummel them, not the piddly damage and lame rider. And insulting enemies is a free action so go-ahead and roast them as you shoot/stab them like the bards of old!

Anyway I would drop either of your currently picked cantrips to pick up mending. It's going to be considerably more useful than vicious Mockery from level 1 in all pillars of the game. No thieves tools? Barbarian smashes the lock, you loot the place, then mend the lock. A couple of your crossbow bolts snapped when you missed? Mend 'em. You broke an axle on your wagon and nobody has proficiency in wagon repair? Mending. You were fighting a vampire spawn that used to be the Dukes beloved wife and the fighter chopped her head off? Well, its a single break or tear in what is now an object, not a creature so... Mending. And a little prestigitation to clean up all the arterial blood splatters. Hell, it's even a healing cantrip in rare situations.

TLDR: You're a face, a deceiver and persuader, and a skill guy. Lean into the cantrips that support that, which are, in order of usefulness, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, and Mending. Avoid Vicious Mockery, it's a trap choice, Thaumaturgy is less useful than Minor Illusion by a lot, and Prestigitation by a moderate amount. The other often useful Bard cantrip, Message you can skip as you get universal speech at Level 6.

[Leon]

It's likely that someone else in the party will have mage hand

Ive generally found you will have more people with prestidigitation than anything else. Current group has three instances of it in five spellcapable PCs. Mind you we also have 3 Mage hands but for my character at least that's more a thematic choice that was part of the Telekinetic feat than a need to have cantrip.


Avoid Vicious Mockery, it's a trap choice

Its a fine choice when the "face" otherwise might not have much to do in Combat, the trap choice is not having a combat option in an otherwise social/utility lineup.

[animorte]

Mage Hand is probably my favorite cantrip. Getting creative enough, I can simulate a lot of other effects while having its own unique uses being much more difficult replicate with other cantrips.

Then include the different ways to have an invisible Mage Hand!

[Kenny_Snoggins]

Ive generally found you will have more people with prestidigitation than anything else. Current group has three instances of it in five spellcapable PCs. Mind you we also have 3 Mage hands but for my character at least that's more a thematic choice that was part of the Telekinetic feat than a need to have cantrip.



Its a fine choice when the "face" otherwise might not have much to do in Combat, the trap choice is not having a combat option in an otherwise social/utility lineup.

In my experience mage hand is slightly ahead since more of the quarter casters get it, and use it, compared to prestigitation. Mechanically I would say having 5 people with prestigitation is a lot more useful than 5 people with mage hand for the reasons and cases I stated above. There is rarely, if ever, a reason to have more than one mage hand active where as there are plenty of situations where multiple instances of prestigitation maybe useful. And I'm like you, I really like mage hand but I would only take it as the ribbon on Telekinetic, since it being invisible adds so much more utility. The grand dreams of nabbing treasure or bypassing traps with mage hand almost always are for naught in my experience as unsurprisingly, the DM has heard of the spell.

Well I stipulated a lot of at-will things the face can do in the party during combat that can be very impactful but the bottom line is, if you have to get that damage in for whatever reason using weapons (probably dual wield daggers if you have literally nothing else to do, or a light crossbow if you still need the bonus action) is going to do more damage than vicious mockery until you are at tier 3 where you have either taken a multiclass dip, or have enough leveled spells and abilities that a whopping 3D4 damage on your main attack (after a wisdom save, natch) is not something you would ever do.

So even in that case, vicious mockery sucks pretty hard, being worse than the second worse option by a noticeable amount. Give full concealment to your blasters or rangers or rogues, cast Faire Fire, cast an illusion cantrip to decieve or intimidate based on the situation, possibly ending or avoiding the entire encounter. Stabilize a downed comrade. Whatever. You always have a better option than vicious mockery. And that entire argument in favor of the cantrip is only applicable to situations where you have zero leveled spells left, or where the encounter doesn't really justify using one. Neither of which situations are helped by a round of the bard doing maybe, possibly, 1D4 psychic damage. I mean hell, free action toss some cantrips and you'll do more damage than vicious mockery while imposing a more meaningful condition. You can insult them while you do it, then shoot them in the face with a crossbow.

[Tanarii]

Trying to charm your way pass a guard with muddied clothes is tougher than it looks. =P

I think that if I need to open a door that might be trapped, I will try to convince my friends that it is safe. If it isn't, I'll find new friends. Although I will be missing out on an amazing cantrip.
If looking good is more useful than being able to manipulate things at a distance, your decision makes plenty of sense.


There is rarely, if ever, a reason to have more than one mage hand active where as there are plenty of situations where multiple instances of prestigitation maybe useful. Just not seeing it. It's hard enough to make prestidigitation useful for a single character. Unless you're a troupe of magical entertainers that delights folks by creating showers of sparks or illusionary hand sized trinkets after noticeably casting a spell. And the decent counter-example given above, making yourself presentable for social purposes, only requires one person to have the cantrip.

[Ortho]

In terms of what-would-my-character-do, I've found it hard to justify a reason not to take Prestidigitation. It would be such a quality of life improvement to your day-to-day chores. It can reheat food, clean your laundry, toggle the lights in the room, etc....

You know how the popular consensus is that you're kinda shooting yourself in the foot if your warlock doesn't take, say, Agonizing Blast? Prestidigitation is that, but for RP.

[Chronos]

It's a tough choice, since I love all three. That said:

If it were just two out of three, then I'd take Prestidigitation and Minor Illusion. Most of the things you can do with Mage Hand, you can do without it, too, and unless you can use it as a bonus action like an Arcane Trickster, there's not much value in multiple people having it.

That said, it's not just two out of three, since you already have Thaumaturgy, which has some overlap with Prestidigitation. Not as much direct overlap, maybe, but they still both fill the niche of "I want to do some random minor magical effect". And Prestidigitation is also often redundant with multiple casters. So Mage Hand would probably give more additional utility, given already having Thaumaturgy, so I'd take Minor Illusion and Mage Hand.

In any event, I'd definitely take Minor Illusion. That has tons of utility, both in and out of combat, and even if someone else already has it, it's useful to have more. Out of the five 5th edition characters I've played so far, four have had it, and the only reason my current character doesn't is because he's a paladin, and hence doesn't get cantrips.

[animorte]

Minor Illusion also has some overlap with the effects of Prestidigitation (and the other 3). But there’s nothing wrong with seeking to have as many cantrips as possible if you don’t intend to scale well. Cantripologist builds

[tsotate]

You know how the popular consensus is that you're kinda shooting yourself in the foot if your warlock doesn't take, say, Agonizing Blast? Prestidigitation is that, but for RP.

So true. Who wouldn't want to be able to cast it? The sheer quality of life bonus to always having clean clothes and good-tasting food is amazing. My arcana cleric comes from a mage college that sends the departmental Murlynd's Spoon to conferences with their grad students to avoid paying a per diem for food. You can bet that anyone who's ever had to present at one of those conferences has learned Prestidigitation after having to eat that.

[Eradis]

So even in that case, vicious mockery sucks pretty hard, being worse than the second worse option by a noticeable amount.

Vicious Mockery stays in my array. With the Strixhaven background, I gain two additional cantrips (two of three options), so instead of only starting with two, I start with four. Two of them are Vicious Mockery and Thaumaturgy.


If looking good is more useful than being able to manipulate things at a distance, your decision makes plenty of sense.

It is more about the everyday impact that prestidigitation can have. Let's say we get out of a sewer, even if for an official quest, people won't be too inclined to offering discount or lodging if we smell worse than their mama's leftover porridge. Or if we are camping on a rainy day, starting a fire with wet wood just isn't easy. It can mean the difference between having exhaustion or not.

In my opinion, to pull a lever from a distance or trigger a pressure plate, you can either lasso it or throw rocks. Of course, I wouldn't lasso a precious goblet off a pedestal, but I find more solution to go around mage hand than the simplicity of prestidigitation, especially since I'm more RP-inclined.


In terms of what-would-my-character-do, I've found it hard to justify a reason not to take Prestidigitation. It would be such a quality of life improvement to your day-to-day chores. It can reheat food, clean your laundry, toggle the lights in the room, etc....

You know how the popular consensus is that you're kinda shooting yourself in the foot if your warlock doesn't take, say, Agonizing Blast? Prestidigitation is that, but for RP.

Totally agree!


Minor Illusion also has some overlap with the effects of Prestidigitation (and the other 3). But there’s nothing wrong with seeking to have as many cantrips as possible if you don’t intend to scale well. Cantripologist builds

Are there some key points to be a Cantripologist? I believe Lore Bard has a better potential than the Eloquence Bard I'm running, but I still am curious as to how I can get a few cantrips more to my array.


Minor Illusion is more valuable [...]

Vicious Mockery is iconic... but sucks. [...]

Anyway I would drop either of your currently picked cantrips to pick up mending. [...]

[...] Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, and Mending. Avoid Vicious Mockery, it's a trap choice, Thaumaturgy is less useful than Minor Illusion by a lot

I love Minor Illusion and it was a staple cantrip for me in theorycrafting until I actually had the opportunity to leave my DM chair to sit at a Player chair. I found, surprisingly, more DM that will significantly impair the use of minor illusion. Like NPCs not having to roll to see right through the copy of an emblem, or figure that the crate is an illusion right away and shoot a bolt into it by suspicion. Thus the main reason I prefer Prestidigitation in actual gameplay.

Mending do looks amazing too and I would love to have it down the road. Just like Minor Illusion, I haven't been in a lot of situation that I found myself "lacking" the cantrip. Having it, I would have probably used it more and force its use. But definitively on the burner.

As for Thaumaturgy and Vicious Mockery, there are part of my background, so no way of taking them out. I could replace one for an attack spell, but the spell would do less damage than a crossbow, so it feels useless. Vicious Mockery will at least be used as a debuff when a bolt will not be enough.


- -- - --- - --- - -- -

Lots of great points from every angle. All of which helped me finalize my choices and look forward to more in the future.

Thank you all (really, everyone, there was no troll!) ~ even if I did not answered you directly.

Keep up the good work Ô Mighty Community!

[animorte]

Are there some key points to be a Cantripologist? I believe Lore Bard has a better potential than the Eloquence Bard I'm running, but I still am curious as to how I can get a few cantrips more to my array.

Basically just a lot of multiclassing. Celestial Warlock starts with 4 cantrips (Pact of the Tome adds 3 more). Sorcerer starts with 4. Any race with a cantrip grants you 12 total at level 4. Arcana Cleric starts at 5, it continues on…

If you really need a few more, perhaps 1 level Divine Soul Sorcerer dip for access to Cleric and Sorcerer spell lists. Also Charisma.

[KorvinStarmast]

Minor Illusion is great at the right table. Some tables have trouble with illusions.

I tend to take Prestidigitation for fun with utility stuff and to be able to light up a smoke, a torch, or campfire at need. And that whole clean up is great.
And, make the beer taste better? Yes!
Make the (injested) poisoned glass of wine taste better and sweeter? Yes! :smallsmile:

[solidork]

Maybe you can't get away with this at most tables, but at ours you can use the heating/cooling aspect of Prestidigitation to counteract the effects of being in really hot or really cold environments by using it on your clothes.

Also, Minor Illusion is excellent even if you never use it for combat. Think about every time you've had to describe someone or something to an NPC - what did the attacker look like? What was the layout of the enemy camp? What did the cloaked figure's voice sound like? Ever tried to communicate across a language barrier? Its a heck of a lot easier using images.

I could see tables where making small statues of people or models of areas is crossing the line of what counts as an object, but I've yet to be at a table like that.

[Chronos]

Silent communication, too, like when the party is trying to sneak in somewhere. Put a sign with writing on it somewhere that the enemy can't see it.

But yeah, obviously if your DM rules that everyone can always automatically see through illusions, then illusions become a lot less useful.

[Eradis]

Maybe you can't get away with this at most tables, but at ours you can use the heating/cooling aspect of Prestidigitation to counteract the effects of being in really hot or really cold environments by using it on your clothes.

Also, Minor Illusion is excellent even if you never use it for combat. Think about every time you've had to describe someone or something to an NPC - what did the attacker look like? What was the layout of the enemy camp? What did the cloaked figure's voice sound like? Ever tried to communicate across a language barrier? Its a heck of a lot easier using images.

I could see tables where making small statues of people or models of areas is crossing the line of what counts as an object, but I've yet to be at a table like that.


Silent communication, too, like when the party is trying to sneak in somewhere. Put a sign with writing on it somewhere that the enemy can't see it.

But yeah, obviously if your DM rules that everyone can always automatically see through illusions, then illusions become a lot less useful.

Interesting use of Minor Illusion. I haven't thought of these before. Thanks!