Black Panther: Wakanda Forever

[Palanan]

First trailer:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlOB3UALvrQ



Am I the only one...


...who didn't know that Namor and the Atlanteans were going to be in this?

[JadedDM]

...who didn't know that Namor and the Atlanteans were going to be in this?



Nooo, I'm sure there were probably some Amish or Tibetan monks who didn't know. Maybe. :smalltongue:

From what I've read, though, he won't be from Atlantis, probably to avoid confusion with Aquaman. Instead, he's going to be from some kind of mythical Aztecan underwater city instead.

[Palanan]

Aha.

I was wondering about all the feathers, and the general Aztec vibe. That seemed off for Atlantis.

Also, the blue people and the general watery theme suggests there will be inevitable snappy comparisons to Avatar 2.

[runeghost]

Aha.

I was wondering about all the feathers, and the general Aztec vibe. That seemed off for Atlantis.

Also, the blue people and the general watery theme suggests there will be inevitable snappy comparisons to Avatar 2.

If they wanted it to be compared with Avatar 2, they'd wait to release it until 2035.

[Ramza00]

If they wanted it to be compared with Avatar 2, they'd wait to release it until 2035.

Disney which owns the Marvel and non Marvel Property


Nov 11, 2022 Black Panther Wakanda Forver, aka less than 4 months from now.
Dec 16, 2022 Avatar 2: The Way of Water, aka 5 weeks later.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Namor and friends vs. Wakanda looks like fun, but I’m more than a little concerned after the crummy job they did with Dr. Strange 2 and Black Widow.

[Trafalgar]

My big question is how did T'Challa die? Though I heard a theory that:

T'Challa will be assassinated off screen and this will be blamed on Namor. It will be revealed at the end of the film that he was actually assassinated by the future BBEG for phase 5 and beyond. Maybe Dr. Doom. I am not sure I buy that though since Fantastic Four is now not happening until phase 6.

[Sapphire Guard]

Uh...wasn't Wakanda landlocked in the previous stories?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Uh...wasn't Wakanda landlocked in the previous stories?

I believe so, but if they’re going for an Aztec theme anyway they were already on the opposite side of the Atlantic.

[GloatingSwine]

Uh...wasn't Wakanda landlocked in the previous stories?

Yeah, but that never bothered them in A vs. X* where they also did Namor vs. Wakanda.


* Don't bother it dumb.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Trafalgar
My big question is how did T'Challa die?

They may leave it unexplained. The loss is what matters, not the cause.

And to me, any attempt to tie his death to a mere plot point would feel cheap and disrespectful. His absence can have its full emotional resonance without needing to be “explained” as part of something else.


Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard
Uh...wasn't Wakanda landlocked in the previous stories?

Extremely inland, to judge by the news graphic in Civil War.

But they do have that lovely river running through their capital, which presumably connects to the ocean at some point.

[Mechalich]

Extremely inland, to judge by the news graphic in Civil War.

But they do have that lovely river running through their capital, which presumably connects to the ocean at some point.

MCU Wakanda occupies what is in the real world the northwest corner of Kenya. This means that, assuming at least some level of correspondence to real world geography, Wakanda contains the entirety of Lake Turkana - one of the world's largest salt lakes - which might be of considerable interest to Namor's people.

[Zevox]

They may leave it unexplained. The loss is what matters, not the cause.

And to me, any attempt to tie his death to a mere plot point would feel cheap and disrespectful. His absence can have its full emotional resonance without needing to be “explained” as part of something else.
It doesn't need to be a plot point or tied into anything else, but it does need some kind of explanation why the character just died in between movies. Though I suppose the best explanation may be the simplest: the same reason that his actor died, cancer. Perhaps cancer that he wasn't even aware of until it was too late because the Black Panther powers kept its symptoms suppressed until it reached such an advanced stage that they were unable to do anything for him.

Anyway, trailer's good. Just leaves the question of who exactly will be the new Black Panther with T'Challa's death, since they made a point of the one shot of them not giving that away. Granted, it's probably Shuri, but then if they were going the obvious route, why hide it like that?

[Dame_Mechanus]

Anyway, trailer's good. Just leaves the question of who exactly will be the new Black Panther with T'Challa's death, since they made a point of the one shot of them not giving that away. Granted, it's probably Shuri, but then if they were going the obvious route, why hide it like that?

Probably Shuri, although I was kind of hoping for Nakia. The whole sad story of how things unfolded there makes me weep, though.

I do appreciate how this trailer did a trick Square-Enix does for many of their Final Fantasy XIV trailers by having the studio logo folded into part of the scenery. I doubt it's an intentional homage but it made me smirk.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mechalich
…Wakanda contains the entirety of Lake Turkana…which might be of considerable interest to Namor's people.

The only geographic information we have in the MCU comes from a brief news segment in Civil War, at 19:07. The graphic shows Wakanda straddling a good part of Lake Turkana, but there’s still plenty of the lake extending to the south of Wakanda’s borders.

As for being a salt lake, Turkana is barely saline in comparison with the ocean; most of its water comes from the River Omo and its salinity is around 2 ppt, which is less than one-seventeenth of the ocean’s average salinity.

More importantly, Turkana is highly alkaline, loaded with sodium carbonate and fluoride—which makes the water unpleasant to taste and touch—so I highly doubt the Atlanteans would care about it. From their perspective it’s a tiny lake with unpleasant chemistry, surrounded by desert deep within a landmass, so hardly worth the bother when they have all the oceans of the world.


Originally Posted by Dame_Mechanus
Probably Shuri, although I was kind of hoping for Nakia. The whole sad story of how things unfolded there makes me weep, though.

Agreed about Nakia. But what was the sad story you mention?

[The Glyphstone]

As far as Namor goes, poking around online seems to indicate that Namor is still from Atlantis. The Mayincatec (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mayincatec) vibes are likely indicators of past Atlantean contact with the surface world in some fashion.



I'm also seeing indications that an actress (Dominique Thorne) has been cast as Riri Williams/Ironheart for a role in BP:WF, and will later star Phase 5 TV miniseries.

[Zevox]

I'm also seeing indications that an actress (Dominique Thorne) has been cast as Riri Williams/Ironheart for a role in BP:WF, and will later star Phase 5 TV miniseries.

Oh, we know Ironheart is getting a Disney+ show in phase 5 - they just announced the entire phase 5 lineup, and a few big names for phase 6, the other day.
Her showing up im Black Panther would be news to me though. I could see it though, give her a small role to seed interest for the show, kind of like Black Panther himself in Civil War.

[Delicious Taffy]

Trailer looks neat, but that's what trailers are kinda for, so I'm not gonna lean too much on that. I'm honestly a little disappointed they're making a sequel without the original guy, but maybe it'll be good. I'm sort of interested to see what they do with Namor, since that's one of the guys that fights the Unfilmable 4 and I really wanna see that team done justice at least once in recorded human history. A little confused why in the trailer, the queen says her entire family is gone. Did Shuri die off-screen too? Like, I get why T'Challa would be mysteriously merked, but I thought Shuri was doing fine, unless that's also part of the setup. I could have missed something.

What I'm really worried about is how cramped these next two phases are apparently supposed to be. The first few had at least a good couple of years from start to finish, but Wikipedia is saying they've got like 5-6 movies and almost as many TV shows planned per year between next year and 2025. I remember people getting burnt out when it was starting to be 2 a year, and a lot of those were sequels. This next phase looks like they're sorta trying to rush out a bunch of new characters, though, which I actually sort of appreciate so it's not like 4 years of "Hey here's this new guy and maybe one sequel." Guess we'll see how this works out.

[Zevox]

What I'm really worried about is how cramped these next two phases are apparently supposed to be. The first few had at least a good couple of years from start to finish, but Wikipedia is saying they've got like 5-6 movies and almost as many TV shows planned per year between next year and 2025. I remember people getting burnt out when it was starting to be 2 a year, and a lot of those were sequels. This next phase looks like they're sorta trying to rush out a bunch of new characters, though, which I actually sort of appreciate so it's not like 4 years of "Hey here's this new guy and maybe one sequel." Guess we'll see how this works out.
Huh, you know, I didn't think about that, but you're right, they have cramped things down. Phases 5 and 6 are only a year and a half each from the visuals they showed, with 5 going from 2023-mid 2024 and 6 picking up then and going through 2025. That is rather ambitious of them, isn't it? Though I guess we don't know how much phase 6 will have yet, since they only announced three things for it.

Personally, there's no danger of me getting "burned out" on them - quite the contrary, superhero films are basically the only reason I even still watch movies at this point - but they do actually have less that interests me in phase 5 just because of what they have, personally. I'll certainly see Guardians 3 and The Marvels (which, now that I think of it, got pushed back from phase 4, which might account for part of why phase 5 is so cramped), but otherwise? No interest in Ant-Man or Captain America films (haven't seen the others either, except Civil War since that was more an Avengers film than strictly a Cap one), doubt I'll care about Blade, and Thunderbolts is a big question mark at this point for me. And I'm not watching any of the Disney+ series just because I don't really watch tv shows in general anymore. So, I might see half of the movies for this phase, if they can get me interested in Thunderbolts, or only a third if they can't.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Agreed about Nakia. But what was the sad story you mention?

Just the death of Boseman (who was a hell of an actor above and beyond that role, let's not mince words) after he originated the part and really worked himself overtime because he knew how important his role would be to so many people.

[Ranxerox]

Anyway, trailer's good. Just leaves the question of who exactly will be the new Black Panther with T'Challa's death, since they made a point of the one shot of them not giving that away. Granted, it's probably Shuri, but then if they were going the obvious route, why hide it like that?

Pausing the trailer at 1.56, the Black Panther looks a lot thicker in the middle than Leticia Wright. Since Marvel has a history of changing scenes for the trailers in order to throw fan speculation off, that doesn't mean it is not Shuri. However, if that is the original footage, BP looks pretty guy like to me.

[Delicious Taffy]

Thunderbolts is a big question mark at this point for me.
Yeah, I'm drawing a blank on the Thunderbolts, personally. Never heard of 'em until today but I guess they're some kind of reformed villains' team? Given the tendency of the MCU to just straight-up kill their villains off, I'm not entirely sure who's left for that concept.

I will say though, the amount of movies they've gone without bringing in Sleepwalker is beginning to strain my patience with the MCU. They put a random green cow in Strange 2 for no apparent reason, and it seems like I can't buy a pack of smokes without runnin' into nine guys they've name-dropped. When does one of the cool D-listers come in, for cryin' out loud?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

the Unfilmable 4

Tangent, but I like this nickname for them. :smallbiggrin:


A little confused why in the trailer, the queen says her entire family is gone. Did Shuri die off-screen too? Like, I get why T'Challa would be mysteriously merked, but I thought Shuri was doing fine, unless that's also part of the setup. I could have missed something.

Assuming it’s not a misdirect, maybe she goes missing and is presumed dead, like what happened with T’Challa in movie 1? Or it could be a flashback to the Blip, since IIRC Shuri got dusted too.


What I'm really worried about is how cramped these next two phases are apparently supposed to be.

From a production value standpoint I’m inclined to agree, and I won’t be surprised if several items get delayed or rearranged from what they showed this weekend.


Yeah, I'm drawing a blank on the Thunderbolts, personally. Never heard of 'em until today but I guess they're some kind of reformed villains' team? Given the tendency of the MCU to just straight-up kill their villains off, I'm not entirely sure who's left for that concept.

Ghost from Ant Man and the Wasp, Taskmaster from Black Widow, Yelena is probably antagonistic enough for the Thunderbolts’ purposes, US Agent from FatWS, maybe Echo if she survives her series, Abomination from Hulk…I think the big problem is that from what I’ve heard, Thunderbolt Ross is a big presence in Thunderbolts in the comics, and IIRC his actor died recently. Maybe they’ll have Val take his place?

[Trafalgar]

Assuming it’s not a misdirect, maybe she goes missing and is presumed dead, like what happened with T’Challa in movie 1? Or it could be a flashback to the Blip, since IIRC Shuri got dusted too.


I was under the impression that Okoye was running Wakanda during the blip but that's only due to the conversation between her and Natasha about the earthquake.

Just watched the trailer and Angela Bassett really brings the fire. She is an amazing actor and wasn't given much to do in BP1. I hope she has a pivotal role in this movie.

[Tyrant]

Ghost from Ant Man and the Wasp, Taskmaster from Black Widow, Yelena is probably antagonistic enough for the Thunderbolts’ purposes, US Agent from FatWS, maybe Echo if she survives her series, Abomination from Hulk…I think the big problem is that from what I’ve heard, Thunderbolt Ross is a big presence in Thunderbolts in the comics, and IIRC his actor died recently. Maybe they’ll have Val take his place?
I don't know about recent/current incarnations, but the original leader was Baron Zemo who is still quite alive.

[Aedilred]

MCU Wakanda occupies what is in the real world the northwest corner of Kenya. This means that, assuming at least some level of correspondence to real world geography, Wakanda contains the entirety of Lake Turkana - one of the world's largest salt lakes - which might be of considerable interest to Namor's people.

It does rather make one wonder why the Wakandans speak Xhosa and Igbo (neither of which is spoken within a thousand miles of Wakanda's nominal location, or near each other) rather than a Great Lakes Bantu language. But I guess they're African languages and that's good enough. Africa's basically all the same, right?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Aedilred
It does rather make one wonder why the Wakandans speak Xhosa….

The Xhosa comes from John Kani, who speaks Xhosa and pushed for its inclusion in Civil War. Ryan Coogler evidently ran with that for Black Panther, though I couldn’t say about the Igbo.

I’m a little disappointed there isn’t a conlang for Wakanda, but maybe they’ll explore that in the Disney+ series, if that ever comes out.

[Dragonus45]

I’m a little disappointed there isn’t a conlang for Wakanda, but maybe they’ll explore that in the Disney+ series, if that ever comes out.

Yea I'm not, that's a minefield filled with poisonous land sharks and rusty spoons.

[Azuresun]

Yeah, I'm drawing a blank on the Thunderbolts, personally. Never heard of 'em until today but I guess they're some kind of reformed villains' team? Given the tendency of the MCU to just straight-up kill their villains off, I'm not entirely sure who's left for that concept.

In the comics, there was a big Event that put several iconic heroes out of action (presumed dead) for a time. A team of new characters, very flashy and glamorous, popped up and started being big damn heroes....but they were actually minor villains running a scam. Eventually, they started finding they enjoyed being heroes.

[Murk]

Just watched the trailer and Angela Bassett really brings the fire. She is an amazing actor and wasn't given much to do in BP1. I hope she has a pivotal role in this movie.

I'm rooting for Lupita Black Panther, but Angela Bassett Black Panther would also definitely be acceptable.

[Psyren]

Most likely candidates for the new BP are:

Nakia
Shuri
Queen Ramonda
Okoye
M'Baku (unlikely given the silhouette, but possible)
Killmonger (unlikely, but also possible if he was kept in stasis.)

As for Riri Williams aks Ironheart:
She is definitely in this, and the hammering of the heart-shaped piece of metal at 1:33 is a deliberate callback to Tony Stark. I'm also fairly certain that's her fist-bumping Shuri at 1:13.

[The Glyphstone]

Riri:
10 bucks says she's connected to this via the outreach center(s?) that T'Challa was setting up at the end of BP1. Tony's not around to be her mentor in this continuity, and they already did the 'mentor beyond the grave' thing with Peter Parker.

[Trafalgar]

A friend of mine claims they are doing the "Doom war" story...

[Psyren]

Riri:
10 bucks says she's connected to this via the outreach center(s?) that T'Challa was setting up at the end of BP1. Tony's not around to be her mentor in this continuity, and they already did the 'mentor beyond the grave' thing with Peter Parker.

No bet. Plus it's a great way to show T'Challa's true legacy, bringing Wakanda to the world stage before he died.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Yea I'm not, that's a minefield filled with poisonous land sharks and rusty spoons.

Especially since the actual story is pretty touching; John Kani being a native Xhosa speaker inspired Chadwick Boseman to actually learn entire scenes in the language, which means that it got important despite not making much geographic sense but because of that personal connection. Considering that this was a decision made by Kani, Boseman, and Ryan Coogler, all of whom are far more authoritative than I am when it comes to making a film and building a continuity focused on black excellence, my instinct is to defer to their decisions on this matter.

Also I keep forgetting Ironheart will be involved in this, which makes me even more excited.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Dame_Mechanus
…despite not making much geographic sense but because of that personal connection.

It’s a great story on its own, but doesn’t preclude building a full Wakandan language unique to their nation. We know that Wakandans who interact with the outside world are fluent in multiple languages, and there’s no reason there couldn’t be a Wakandan language used primarily at home.

This could be an interesting angle for stories set within Wakanda—the idea of tension between speakers of “traditional” Wakandan, who see themselves as guardians of the nation’s true heritage, and those who are open to learning and using new languages from outside Wakanda.

[lord_khaine]

I confess im personally not very stoked for this.
But its likely just as much from a severe dislike of Wakanda.

[The Glyphstone]

MCU Wakanda is at least a little less jerkish than 616 Wakanda, simply because there is a bit less of a technical differential. They're still hoarding stuff like antigrav, but at least they're not refusing to share the actual cure for cancer (that we know of)?

[MCerberus]

I wonder how they're going to deal with that the Black Panther is defined by the ritual (no flowers) and not the costume

[GloatingSwine]

It’s a great story on its own, but doesn’t preclude building a full Wakandan language unique to their nation. We know that Wakandans who interact with the outside world are fluent in multiple languages, and there’s no reason there couldn’t be a Wakandan language used primarily at home.

This could be an interesting angle for stories set within Wakanda—the idea of tension between speakers of “traditional” Wakandan, who see themselves as guardians of the nation’s true heritage, and those who are open to learning and using new languages from outside Wakanda.

Counterpoint: Conlangs are basically terrible and making a good one is a life's passion project for a linguistics professor not a two week job for a movie.

I do not think Marvel Studios are likely to find a linguistics professor from Uganda or Rwanda and say "take 20 years to make up a language".

And using a somewhat geographically appropriate Bantu language with a relatively small number of speakers would do the same.

[lord_khaine]

MCU Wakanda is at least a little less jerkish than 616 Wakanda, simply because there is a bit less of a technical differential. They're still hoarding stuff like antigrav, but at least they're not refusing to share the actual cure for cancer (that we know of)?

Thats in turn true. I guess MCU Wakanda isnt directly jerks. I wont blame them for hoarding weapon technology. Everyone does that.
But i do find them arrogant and stuck up. Just about the only thing in that movie that made me considder watching another was Black Panther himself.

Well. And i then also find it a tiny bit dumb that a super-advanced civilisation still uses spears as their main weapon.
But still, its a subjective dislike.

[Trafalgar]

Well. And i then also find it a tiny bit dumb that a super-advanced civilisation still uses spears as their main weapon.
But still, its a subjective dislike.

I find it a bit more dumb that a super advanced civilization determines its leader through primogeniture and ritual combat. As far as the next King of Wakanda, my money is on M'Baku. In one on one combat, he destroys everyone left in Wakanda.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

As far as the next King of Wakanda, my money is on M'Baku. In one on one combat, he destroys everyone left in Wakanda.

Concur about M’Baku, his traditionalist isolationist outlook also gives Marvel a solid reason for Wakanda to not get involved in everyone else’s solo movies.

…which means the next Black Panther is probably going to be Shuri or Nakia since Marvel is going to want whoever gets the mantle available for cameos and Okoye has proven she’ll follow whoever is on the throne.

[GloatingSwine]

Well. And i then also find it a tiny bit dumb that a super-advanced civilisation still uses spears as their main weapon.


It's because they're super insular and didn't watch Stargate SG-1.

Otherwise they'd know better. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjlCVW_ouL8)

[DigoDragon]

I wonder how they're going to deal with that the Black Panther is defined by the ritual (no flowers) and not the costume

maybe steal Tony Stark's idea and use nano machines to build a new suit? It would be an easy solution the audience is aware of, and has the amusing side effect that I believe Tony stole some of the suit's idea from Wakanda's tech.

[Androgeus]

As far as the next King of Wakanda, my money is on M'Baku.

Some of the trailer scenes have Angela Bassett sitting in the throne in council scenes as well as addressing the UN (or other similar international body), so it seems she’s at least regent for part of the film.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by GloatingSwine
Conlangs are basically terrible….

“All X is terrible, just because” isn’t a point.


Originally Posted by Trafalgar
As far as the next King of Wakanda, my money is on M'Baku. In one on one combat, he destroys everyone left in Wakanda.


Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
Concur about M’Baku, his traditionalist isolationist outlook also gives Marvel a solid reason for Wakanda to not get involved in everyone else’s solo movies.


Originally Posted by Androgeus
Some of the trailer scenes have Angela Bassett sitting in the throne in council scenes as well as addressing the UN (or other similar international body), so it seems she’s at least regent for part of the film.

My theory has always been that M’Baku took control during the Snap, keeping Wakanda isolated and well clear of whatever chaos was happening outside the borders.

That said, Queen Ramonda is evidently a force of nature in her own right, so much of the Snap in Wakanda may have been defined by the power struggle between her and M’Baku. That’s an interesting dynamic in itself, since she may have felt she owed M’Baku for her son’s life, and for M’Baku’s support against the usurper; but that calculus would have changed after the Snap.

[MCerberus]

maybe steal Tony Stark's idea and use nano machines to build a new suit? It would be an easy solution the audience is aware of, and has the amusing side effect that I believe Tony stole some of the suit's idea from Wakanda's tech.

What I was referring to were those flowers that start the vision quest, which were burned as part of the first movie. I don't think there, in any meaningful cultural way, can be a Black Panther

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by MCerberus
What I was referring to were those flowers that start the vision quest, which were burned as part of the first movie.

Probably the easiest issue to address. Either they find a new population of the heart-shaped herb, or Shuri synthesizes the relevant compounds herself.

And given recent history, the latter option would be the smart money in any case. We know that Wakandan technology isn’t static; Shuri has made major improvements in just a few years. It’s possible that they didn’t have the ability to synthesize the active compounds before, and/or had strong cultural resistance to doing so; but Killmonger’s insane desecration may have shocked them into taking measures to ensure that no one could undermine the tradition of the Black Panther like that ever again.

[DigoDragon]

What I was referring to were those flowers that start the vision quest, which were burned as part of the first movie. I don't think there, in any meaningful cultural way, can be a Black Panther

Right, but until they find more flower, or a sub, my idea might work as a temporary fix. Palanan idea above of a synthetic version could work too.

[GloatingSwine]

“All X is terrible, just because” isn’t a point.


Give us an example of a good one that wasn't developed over multiple decades as a passion project then.

[MCerberus]

Would a synthetic version of the flowers work? We are talking about magic, what with talking to your ancestors. It would not be good for legitimacy purposes (and this is the kind of crisis that would cause a civil war in monarchies) if a synthetic version is used and it turns out they just get like, really high and all those revelations by the ancestors was just that.

Although I like the idea of just finding more plants. Don't want all those important plants stored as a monoculture (if not for disease some crazy person could burn them), just transplant some of them from the backup sacred grove.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by GloatingSwine
*snip*

Still not a point, because you’re giving no objective parameters for “good” or “terrible.”

[lord_khaine]

I find it a bit more dumb that a super advanced civilization determines its leader through primogeniture and ritual combat.

Oh a 100 % agreement on this. I certainly found it just as dumb that they had not managed to do any cultural evolvement at all.
Picking someone on the basis of being able to beat up another guy is possibly the least effective ruler selection possible.
I just didnt want to derail this with to much Wakanda basnhing xD

Flowers

Im not certain why we are spoilering a what 8 year old movie?
But anyway. I though the Black Panther power at least in part were spiritual.
So its a little surprising if it would be possible to synthethise the herb.

Especially with no sample to work from.
But a secret stockpile of seeds are easy enough to explain.

[Thrudd]

It's possible that finding new flowers will be a plot point of the films - I wouldn't be surprised if finding more flowers in some hidden place is something that happens at the end of act 2 or even into act 3, and a new Black Panther is chosen and reveals herself (I assume it will be Shuri or Nakia) just in time for the climactic confrontation.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by MCerberus
Would a synthetic version of the flowers work? We are talking about magic, what with talking to your ancestors. It would not be good for legitimacy purposes (and this is the kind of crisis that would cause a civil war in monarchies) if a synthetic version is used and it turns out they just get like, really high and all those revelations by the ancestors was just that.

In the opening prologue of the first movie, it’s strongly implied that the heart-shaped herb has been affected by vibranium residue from the ancient meteorite impact. Evidently the trace amounts of vibranium interact with the plant’s own chemicals to produce the compounds that confer the abilities of the Black Panther.

At this point the Wakandans are past masters of working with vibranium, and we know that their medical science is also well beyond ours, so it seems very likely that Shuri could whip something up without much trouble.

Cultural resistance is probably the main reason it hasn’t been done before now, especially since King T’Chaka seems like he was strongly traditionalist. But apart from the mythology of Bast granting visions to the first Wakandan king, I’m not seeing any magic involved in the actual operation of the herb. For all we know there’s something else mixed into the brew that’s providing the gateway-to-the-ancestors effect.


Originally Posted by Thrudd
It's possible that finding new flowers will be a plot point of the films - I wouldn't be surprised if finding more flowers in some hidden place is something that happens at the end of act 2 or even into act 3, and a new Black Panther is chosen and reveals herself (I assume it will be Shuri or Nakia) just in time for the climactic confrontation.

Very likely.

A while ago I was thinking that searching for the wild population could be a major story arc for the Wakanda series, but it could certainly show up in the next movie.

There are any number of ways they could approach this. In terms of providing an heart-shaped herb for a new Black Panther, probably the simplest would be a brief flashback showing a priestess or temple worker filching a couple just before Killmonger orders the burning. We only need one to kickstart a new Black Panther, and after that we could still have a story arc in the series about finding the lost wild population.

[GloatingSwine]

Still not a point, because you’re giving no objective parameters for “good” or “terrible.”

I mean in the case of "A bunch of Americans trying to create a central African conlang" that would be "sounds like an actual African language to central Africans and isn't massively culturally insensitive".

And there's basically no chance of producing that if you aren't from Central Africa and also a professor of Linguistics and had a lot of time.

Conlangs that try to sound like real world languages, made up by people who do not speak and have no in-depth cultural understanding of the languages they are trying to sound like are an amazingly bad idea. And doing this one thing wrong would basically undo all of the good representation the movie was aiming at because it would amount to mockery of the people it was trying to represent.

[Trafalgar]

“
My theory has always been that M’Baku took control during the Snap, keeping Wakanda isolated and well clear of whatever chaos was happening outside the borders.

That said, Queen Ramonda is evidently a force of nature in her own right, so much of the Snap in Wakanda may have been defined by the power struggle between her and M’Baku. That’s an interesting dynamic in itself, since she may have felt she owed M’Baku for her son’s life, and for M’Baku’s support against the usurper; but that calculus would have changed after the Snap.

M'Baku's traditionalist beliefs might prevent him from hitting an older woman so he holds back or hesitates at the coronation challenge. And then Queen Ramonda/Angela Bassett lays him out with a single blow from a club to the head. That's how I would have written it.

[Dame_Mechanus]

I mean in the case of "A bunch of Americans trying to create a central African conlang" that would be "sounds like an actual African language to central Africans and isn't massively culturally insensitive".

That's basically where it comes down for me, too. Like, this wasn't the decision of a bunch of white people assuming "all of Africa is basically the same," these were creative decisions made by black creatives working on a film celebrating black excellence. I might recognize that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense geographically, but my opinion in this context is so irrelevant that "secondary" doesn't really account for it.

Seeing a bunch of kids eager to do the Wakandan salute in the wake of the film matters more to me than geographic details of language. (And yes, I know, Chadwick Boseman got a little tired of all the "Wakanda forever!" chants afterwards. Still a king.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Trafalgar
M'Baku's traditionalist beliefs might prevent him from hitting an older woman so he holds back or hesitates at the coronation challenge. And then Queen Ramonda/Angela Bassett lays him out with a single blow from a club to the head. That's how I would have written it.

I can definitely see that.


Originally Posted by Trafalgar
I find it a bit more dumb that a super advanced civilization determines its leader through primogeniture and ritual combat.

On this point I tend to agree. Is hearkening to Wakanda’s traditionalism enough to explain this? I have to wonder if they don’t also have some form of legislative process that operates in parallel with the king and his council…but this is for the movie and series to explore.

I hope they touch on it in some fashion, because it does seem odd the more you think about it.


Originally Posted by Thrudd
It's possible that finding new flowers will be a plot point of the films….

Another possibility is their discovering that the heart-shaped herbs are the result of ancient bioengineering by the original Wakandans. Maybe the first Wakandans tried to give everyone the powers of the Black Panther, but that didn’t go well, and they decided to restrict the powers to a single champion at any given time.

No evidence for this so far, but it’s the sort of storyline that could be unfolding alongside political struggles in the Wakanda series.

[Sapphire Guard]

Everything about Wakanda was made by a bunch of Americans anyway. Director? American? Writer? American? Lead actor? American. There's only a couple of exceptions in the main cast.

[Psyren]

Probably the easiest issue to address. Either they find a new population of the heart-shaped herb, or Shuri synthesizes the relevant compounds herself.

I'm pretty sure the latter happens in the comics, albeit with less positive results. (IIRC, Bast isn't too happy about the synthetic version and makes her feelings known.)


I find it a bit more dumb that a super advanced civilization determines its leader through primogeniture and ritual combat.

Yeah - determining the Black Panther that way makes sense, because you ideally want someone who isn't just a badass because of the suit and the chemicals to wear that mantle. Determining the head of state that way is ridiculous - you're pretty much guaranteeing that nobody from the Merchant Tribe or Border Tribe, regardless of qualifications, can lead, while also opening the door to completely unsuitable leaders who are great at fighting like... well, like Killmonger.

But with that said, they're hardly the first once-insular-nation to have a half-baked succession model. And if their system of government was perfect going in then there would be nowhere for them to go from there either.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I was kind of hoping that movie #2 would be Shuri (or whoever) going on a vision quest from Bast to get a new Heart-shaped Herb, but it doesn’t look like that’s going to be the case. I do like the idea of a temple servant stealing a few before they all got burned; surely not everyone in Wakanda is blindly obedient to the throne regardless of who sits on it.

[Trafalgar]

Yeah - determining the Black Panther that way makes sense, because you ideally want someone who isn't just a badass because of the suit and the chemicals to wear that mantle. Determining the head of state that way is ridiculous - you're pretty much guaranteeing that nobody from the Merchant Tribe or Border Tribe, regardless of qualifications, can lead, while also opening the door to completely unsuitable leaders who are great at fighting like... well, like Killmonger.

But with that said, they're hardly the first once-insular-nation to have a half-baked succession model. And if their system of government was perfect going in then there would be nowhere for them to go from there either.

The MCU seems to be against democracy in general. Look at Asgard. Odin was a bad king. Thor was a bad king. But Thor got to choose Valkyrie as the next ruler. No one in New Asgard was like "hold on, maybe we shouldn't allow a raging alcoholic to choose another raging alcoholic as the next leader. Let's have a meeting to discuss this instead of just accepting Thor's decision. Especially since Thor has made a lot of bad decisions lately."

Everyone in Asgard seemed pretty happy when Loki was pretending to be Odin. Maybe Loki would have been a better King than Thor, Odin, or Valkyrie.

[Kornaki]

Yeah - determining the Black Panther that way makes sense, because you ideally want someone who isn't just a badass because of the suit and the chemicals to wear that mantle.


You need to justify this opinion. The chemicals and the suit fill all your badassery needs, the selection process should make sure they have other positive qualities the herb won't give them.

[Trafalgar]

You need to justify this opinion. The chemicals and the suit fill all your badassery needs, the selection process should make sure they have other positive qualities the herb won't give them.

Of course, this is why Dr. Erskine chose Steve Rogers to for the super soldier serum over everyone else who were stronger.

[lord_khaine]

Everyone in Asgard seemed pretty happy when Loki was pretending to be Odin. Maybe Loki would have been a better King than Thor, Odin, or Valkyrie.

Its not impossible. We dont actually know what Loki wanted. Besides being in charge. He had gone through some character development in Thor 2 by then.

Though well. It made a bit of sense with Odin. And Thor. Even more so in the comics.
Both are Asgardian royal blood. And so literally gods some in uses of the word.
Their power dwarfs that of ordinary Asgardians by several orders of magnitude.


Of course, this is why Dr. Erskine chose Steve Rogers to for the super soldier serum over everyone else who were stronger.

That is another valid point against the Wakandan selection process.

Hah.. its basically like they are a min-maxed Civilization nation. Gone directly for nuklear bombs.
having bypassed random unneeded things like the wheel or simulair on their way xD

In this case its then instead just cultural development sacrificed for anti-grav tech.

[MCerberus]

Does the ruling monarch of Wakanda have any actual executive power? Seems like if the whole thing is about ritual tradition having your head of state have no real power except to run around in a super suit with flower power (as the actual, and we have to remember, real, gods and ancestral spirits demand). Meanwhile the council forms the executive, as sort of weird combination of golden-era Venice and the Haudenosaunee.

Also, Bast is likely a shared god with the Egyptian pantheon does that make the Black Panther an avatar a la Moon Knight?

[Trafalgar]

Does the ruling monarch of Wakanda have any actual executive power? Seems like if the whole thing is about ritual tradition having your head of state have no real power except to run around in a super suit with flower power (as the actual, and we have to remember, real, gods and ancestral spirits demand). Meanwhile the council forms the executive, as sort of weird combination of golden-era Venice and the Haudenosaunee.

Well, Killmonger was able to radically and immediately alter Wakanda foreign policy in the first Black Panther movie.

[ecarden]

Well, Killmonger was able to radically and immediately alter Wakanda foreign policy in the first Black Panther movie.

Exactly. Once he's king, the only available option to stop him is rebellion and civil war. No one even suggests he doesn't have the authority to do basically whatever he wants.

[Androgeus]

Of course, this is why Dr. Erskine chose Steve Rogers to for the super soldier serum over everyone else who were stronger.

Reminds me of my silly theory that Erskine’s serum was an artificial Heart Shaped Herb.

[Trafalgar]

Reminds me of my silly theory that Erskine’s serum was an artificial Heart Shaped Herb.

That's not too silly when compared to other things in Marvel. I mean the super soldier serum is activated by "Vita Rays" and the heart shaped herb has something to do with Vibranium ground water contamination. Maybe the heart shaped herb and the super soldier are chemically similar. Maybe Vibranium give off mild doses of vita rays. Maybe Eskine got the idea from experimenting with the Vibranium that went into Caps Shield. Who knows? At the end of the day, its magic, not real world science, so anything is possible.

[Psyren]

You need to justify this opinion. The chemicals and the suit fill all your badassery needs, the selection process should make sure they have other positive qualities the herb won't give them.


Of course, this is why Dr. Erskine chose Steve Rogers to for the super soldier serum over everyone else who were stronger.

Captain America (as Erskine envisioned the role) and Black Panther have very different job descriptions. The former is a symbol to inspire, the latter is a sword (or, if necessary, a dagger in the dark) to protect Wakandan interests outside her borders. That includes black ops missions and wetwork if necessary.

Erskine's selection criteria are noble, but they wouldn't have lasted two days outside that room if the serum formula hadn't been destroyed. Wakanda meanwhile never had such idealistic views of their guardian to begin with.

[MCerberus]

Exactly. Once he's king, the only available option to stop him is rebellion and civil war. No one even suggests he doesn't have the authority to do basically whatever he wants.

Yes, but in the scene he still appealed directly to the council and had members willing to go along with the plans. It's also likely the murders he was planning if they didn't go along wouldn't be legal exercising of executive power.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Does the ruling monarch of Wakanda have any actual executive power? Seems like if the whole thing is about ritual tradition having your head of state have no real power except to run around in a super suit with flower power

Being Black Panther isn’t guaranteed to come with being king. Witness Civil War, where T’Challa is running around as Black Panther before officially becoming king in Black Panther. Also in the latter, Killmonger specifies he’s challenging T’Challa for the mantles of king and Black Panther. If they were one and the same there would be no need to specify.

[ecarden]

Yes, but in the scene he still appealed directly to the council and had members willing to go along with the plans. It's also likely the murders he was planning if they didn't go along wouldn't be legal exercising of executive power.

I don't think so. He goes in, he gives orders, scene ends.


Being Black Panther isn’t guaranteed to come with being king. Witness Civil War, where T’Challa is running around as Black Panther before officially becoming king in Black Panther. Also in the latter, Killmonger specifies he’s challenging T’Challa for the mantles of king and Black Panther. If they were one and the same there would be no need to specify.

I believe this is correct, and it even makes sense, especially as a king ages and has to actually do various tasks involved with leading the nation.

[warty goblin]

I watched Black Panther in theaters twice, which is once more than every other MCU movie. So I quite liked it. But I quite liked it as a sort of fable or fairytail about kingship, understanding of what constitutes one's people and one's duty to those people. That it was sci-fi didn't really stop me seeing it that way, what with things like, you know, kings, and magic herbs and single combat. That it used this structure to explore some fairly sharp political commentary was, I thought, a testimony to the overall quality of the project. It also had some very solid directing, really excellent acting, and (at least the first 2/3 of it) were vital and exciting in a way I don't think the MCU had been before and definitely hasn't managed since, with the possible exception of Multiverse of Madness, and that for very different reasons.

What I didn't like about it was everything that wasn't that. In particular the more overtly superhero and MCU continuity stuff just weighed the rest of the film down. From the look of the trailer this is going to be another case of an ancient enemy we've somehow never heard of before showing up with a giant army of ineffective monster-dudes. We already have like a zillion MCU versions of that movie, and Aquaman already did that but with fish-dudes, I'm not getting excited for one more.


The MCU seems to be against democracy in general. Look at Asgard. Odin was a bad king. Thor was a bad king. But Thor got to choose Valkyrie as the next ruler. No one in New Asgard was like "hold on, maybe we shouldn't allow a raging alcoholic to choose another raging alcoholic as the next leader. Let's have a meeting to discuss this instead of just accepting Thor's decision. Especially since Thor has made a lot of bad decisions lately."


Well yeah, the entire thesis of democracy is that people have the same inherent worth and stake in life, so are entitled to equal voice in determining their nation's course. Structurally, thematically, and frequently as an outright plot point the thesis of the MCU is that about 40 people in the entire cosmos actually matter, everyone else only has worth insofar as a person with a goofy costume feels they do. Also that the only possible form of conflict resolution is punching.

[Mechalich]

Well yeah, the entire thesis of democracy is that people have the same inherent worth and stake in life, so are entitled to equal voice in determining their nation's course. Structurally, thematically, and frequently as an outright plot point the thesis of the MCU is that about 40 people in the entire cosmos actually matter, everyone else only has worth insofar as a person with a goofy costume feels they do. Also that the only possible form of conflict resolution is punching.

It's also something of a central thesis of state politics generally that the state has, if not an outright monopoly on the use of force, at the least an overwhelming superiority therein. High-powered superheroes violate this (DC actually does it worse than Marvel because it's most important heroes, such as Superman and the Flash, are generally more powerful than Marvel's big names). The ability of the state to control high-power entities such as Dr. Strange, the Hulk, Thor, etc. is very close to zero, especially in the absence of an organization like SHIELD (SHIELD, in the comics has long acted as a sort of pseudo-state with more force, via advanced technology not available to the public or even most militaries, than any other state on Earth and operating specifically to control the actions of supers).

Rather than operating on a state-based model, superhero universes with high-powered heroes operate in a mythic zone where the relevant characters are like deities, the low-powered heroes are quasi-divine beings like nymphs, and the ordinary humans are puny mortals. Mortals can matter, just as they are often highly significant in classical myths, but they do so through their relation to the deities, not through the direct impact of their actions. And, like the quarrels that occur atop Olympus, in these worlds all politics are personal. That doesn't mean that punching is the only means of conflict resolution, but the psychological and sociological data do agree that it should rise in frequency, a lot.