Return of non-infernal tieflings?

[Millstone85]

https://youtu.be/JGIdeBc4Uyw

At 11:20 (https://youtu.be/JGIdeBc4Uyw?t=680), Perkins presents tieflings as "folk who have strong ties to the Lower Planes, like the Abyss and the Nine Hells". Could that tease a change in 5e's handling of the race?

[Zhorn]

huh... From just seeing the trailer alone, I and the folks I've talked to about it were under the impression Sophia Lillis's character was a satyr or faun. Tiefling never came up in conversation.
Learn something new every day.

[Millstone85]

huh... From just seeing the trailer alone, I and the folks I've talked to about it were under the impression Sophia Lillis's character was a satyr or faun. Tiefling never came up in conversation.
Learn something new every day.Understandable. She is a druid with horns, and the long tail is easy to miss amidst all the action.

[kazaryu]

https://youtu.be/JGIdeBc4Uyw

At 11:20 (https://youtu.be/JGIdeBc4Uyw?t=680), Perkins presents tieflings as "folk who have strong ties to the Lower Planes, like the Abyss and the Nine Hells". Could that tease a change in 5e's handling of the race?

i think its far more likely it indicates that they wanted to save money on making their actors look different.

all of the characters look basically human, although im sure they're not all meant to be. and they definitely don't seem to have dipped into the more colorful races.

[LtPowers]

She's definitely more of a 3rd-edition Tiefling in appearance than 4th or 5th. I get serious Neeshka vibes for some reason.


Powers &8^]

[Jervis]

https://youtu.be/JGIdeBc4Uyw

At 11:20 (https://youtu.be/JGIdeBc4Uyw?t=680), Perkins presents tieflings as "folk who have strong ties to the Lower Planes, like the Abyss and the Nine Hells". Could that tease a change in 5e's handling of the race?

From what we’ve seen in Aasimar they probably won’t have subraces anymore and instead you’ll get a “pick a thing from this list” type feature. Lore is probably gonna get handwaved as either Devil or Demon, dealers choice. TBH I think that’s the better way to handle it mechanically. I have mixed opinions on MotM but Aasimar are a good example.

[sandmote]

"folk who have strong ties to the Lower Planes, like the Abyss and the Nine Hells" If this bit is about the PHB tieflings being tied to Asmodeus and the ones from MToF are tied to the other lords of the Nine Hells, I think it was a combination of avoiding a lore dump about the Nine Hells and acknowledging virtually no one pays attention to that tidbit anyway.


i think its far more likely it indicates that they wanted to save money on making their actors look different. The PHB does actually does specify "their skin tones cover the full range of human coloration," so it might be an attempt to emphasize that the character (and tieflings in general) are still mostly human. Otherwise I think the trend in fantasy is still to take heavy inspiration from A Song of Ice and Fire (ie. keeping the number of fantasy races minimal and limiting information given about historical events to offside comments that go by quickly). The movie is obviously going to include a lot of D&Disms, but given the trailer downplays bardic inspiration and the bard's spellcasting I do think there's still some of that current trend sticking around.

[Leon]

Since Sword Coats Adventures guide you have had some options for not being a bog-standard farunen tielfling, aside that you can have always had yours look like whatever and they need not have been human in basic shape.

[Millstone85]

If this bit is about the PHB tieflings being tied to Asmodeus and the ones from MToF are tied to the other lords of the Nine Hells, I think it was a combination of avoiding a lore dump about the Nine Hells and acknowledging virtually no one pays attention to that tidbit anyway.I don't follow. All Perkins had to say was that tieflings are folk who have strong ties to the Nine Hells. No need for him to go into the lore of Asmodeus and other archdevils. No need for him to mention the Lower Planes either. But instead he links tieflings to the Lower Planes and gives both the Nine Hells and the Abyss as examples.

And then he doubles down on this, saying tieflings have horns and tails "as a consequence of their infernal or abyssal origins".


From what we’ve seen in Aasimar they probably won’t have subraces anymore and instead you’ll get a “pick a thing from this list” type feature. Lore is probably gonna get handwaved as either Devil or Demon, dealers choice. TBH I think that’s the better way to handle it mechanically. I have mixed opinions on MotM but Aasimar are a good example.I have also noticed that aasimar have gone from having "a touch of the power of Mount Celestia" (VGtM p104) to having "a spark of the Upper Planes" (MotM p7).

[Unoriginal]

https://youtu.be/JGIdeBc4Uyw

At 11:20 (https://youtu.be/JGIdeBc4Uyw?t=680), Perkins presents tieflings as "folk who have strong ties to the Lower Planes, like the Abyss and the Nine Hells". Could that tease a change in 5e's handling of the race?

Nah, that's clearly Perkins mixing up his editions once again.

He does that from time to time, which is pretty normal.

[sandmote]

All Perkins had to say was that tieflings are folk who have strong ties to the Nine Hells. No need for him to go into the lore of Asmodeus and other archdevils. No need for him to mention the Lower Planes either. But instead he links tieflings to the Lower Planes and gives both the Nine Hells and the Abyss as examples.

And then he doubles down on this, saying tieflings have horns and tails "as a consequence of their infernal or abyssal origins". Fair point.

I would then limit my guess to the second thing I mentioned, where I'm unaware of anyone actually limiting tieflings the way the PHB and MToF say. By extension I'm more surprised when anyone remembers that bit of 5e lore than when someone forgets it.

[Millstone85]

Nah, that's clearly Perkins mixing up his editions once again.
I'm more surprised when anyone remembers that bit of 5e lore than when someone forgets it.I envy these people's ability to forget something so pervasive in 5e materials.

[Oramac]

they wanted to save money.

I would bet money on this being the answer. A high fantasy film like this isn't going to have a particularly large budget, even with the success of comic book movies recently. So they're going to be cutting costs anywhere and everywhere they can. We're probably reading way too much into it.

[Millstone85]

We're probably reading way too much into it.I am not even sure I get this particular line of reasoning.

Perkins would be trying to pass the light makeup as an old-school tiefling, is that the idea?

[Jervis]

I am not even sure I get this particular line of reasoning.

Perkins would be trying to pass the light makeup as an old-school tiefling, is that the idea?

To be honest I prefer the humans with horns angle over candy colored Teiflings in general so im not complaining. Probably better for the actress too since she won’t need to spend five hours in the makeup chair every day, I’ve heard that can be annoying.

[Oramac]

I am not even sure I get this particular line of reasoning.

Perkins would be trying to pass the light makeup as an old-school tiefling, is that the idea?

No. We're looking at it all and saying "oh, it's because of obscure XYZ reason!" when in reality it's more likely to be "because money".

We're overthinking it. It's what we do.

[Millstone85]

No. We're looking at it all and saying "oh, it's because of obscure XYZ reason!" when in reality it's more likely to be "because money".

We're overthinking it. It's what we do.In that case, please forgive my rudeness, but...

I think what actually happened is that kazaryu and you read the title of my thread, took a look at the video thumbnail, and assumed my question was something like "Does Sophia Lillis' makeup hint at a return of non-infernal tieflings?"

Possibly because most reactions to the trailer have been about said makeup. Well, after people were done discussing how a druid would turn into an owlbear.

Otherwise, I do not understand the jump from...

At 11:20 (https://youtu.be/JGIdeBc4Uyw?t=680), Perkins presents tieflings as "folk who have strong ties to the Lower Planes, like the Abyss and the Nine Hells". Could that tease a change in 5e's handling of the race?
to...

i think its far more likely it indicates that they wanted to save money on making their actors look different.

[Skrum]

This topic is an ongoing discussion in the group I play with. The GM's of the game have long had a commitment to leaving lore as vague as possible. 1) This leaves lots of space for people to make up whatever they want for their particular character, and 2) lore is rarely improved by getting more specific.

I really enjoy this approach to world lore, and it has served the group incredibly well. But - I do think the principle taken to the extreme can, like, obscure basic premises. Continuing to use our game world as an example, demons/devils exist. They've been featured in-game. They are not tied to any particular place (Hell or any concept there of have not been established in lore), but the idea of an evil creature that is summoned by mortals for various purposes and that often have nefarious agendas, that exists in the game. Well, what if one of these creature were to procreate with a mortal. That mortal line now has "demon blood." Going forward, those generations of offspring may show signs of the demonic influence. The word that is used to describe the mortals that display other-worldly, demonic influence is "tiefling."

I frankly think it's a little silly to say something like "oh tielfings don't have to have demonic influence." Like that's literally want they are (regardless of what "demons' are). I would call it definitional to the descriptor "tiefling." Get vague with what demon means, by all means ditch all Christian connotations, but a tiefling is mortal who's parentage (somewhere in their lineage) intermingled with demons/devils. I think it's definitional to what tiefling means.

Unless of course you're just borrowing the word and it means something totally different. But a that point, why use the word?

[NeoVid]

Heck, limiting it to just demons and devils seems needlessly restrictive to me. Of course, this is coming from someone who played a tiefling descended from rakshasas, who passed as a Tabaxi so as to hide his real ancestry.

[Skrum]

Heck, limiting it to just demons and devils seems needlessly restrictive to me. Of course, this is coming from someone who played a tiefling descended from rakshasas, who passed as a Tabaxi so as to hide his real ancestry.

"Evil outsider" if you find demons/devils restrictive. Same point.

[Millstone85]

"Evil outsider" if you find demons/devils restrictive. Same point.Fiends.

At least that's the term which, in the Great Wheel, encompasses devils, daemons, demodands, demons and all other lower-planar creatures.

Though it is true that, say, an efreeti might also count as an evil outsider, and be effectively indistinguishable from the above by the average mortal. A fire genasi could grow up thinking they are a tiefling.

[OvisCaedo]

Huh. For some reason in my memories the "feral" etc variants from Sword Coast were supposed to be demonic origins instead of devils. After checking the book, I see that this is information entirely fabricated inside my head.

...Maybe it was a UA that had abyssal tieflings?? I feel really sure they existed SOMEWHERE... but it might have been a UA that never made it to book.

[Millstone85]

Huh. For some reason in my memories the "feral" etc variants from Sword Coast were supposed to be demonic origins instead of devils. After checking the book, I see that this is information entirely fabricated inside my head.

...Maybe it was a UA that had abyssal tieflings?? I feel really sure they existed SOMEWHERE... but it might have been a UA that never made it to book.Yes, the UA called That Old Black Magic (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/07_UA_That_Old_Black_Magic.pdf).

Now, I don't think tieflings need a demonic subrace per say, because that would still leave many other fiends to cover. A choice of features, like in SCAG or like with MotM aasimar, is great.

[Mastikator]

"Outsider" isn't 5e terminology. Efreeti are elementals.

IMO tieflings really need a do-over. They should not be tied to specific archdevils. IMO they should be tied to the ideals of the lower planes like bloodlust, cruelty, need for domination and these ties should manifest only physically and not mentally.

[sandmote]

these ties should manifest only physically and not mentally. Does "physically" include the different Infernal Legacy and other mechanical features? I'll usually list a particular version (winged, PBH, or one from MToF) to fit whichever fiend a player is trying to tie to their tiefling PC, and you've got me wondering how other people handle it.

[Mastikator]

Does "physically" include the different Infernal Legacy and other mechanical features? I'll usually list a particular version (winged, PBH, or one from MToF) to fit whichever fiend a player is trying to tie to their tiefling PC, and you've got me wondering how other people handle it.

Yes that's what I'm thinking. I feel like most of the various tiefling bloodlines lack theme. The bloodline of asmodeus for example gives a cantrip and two spells, they may (or may not be, I don't know and very much do not care) be fitting for the NPC Asmodeus but unless you know all of the lore of this NPC it just feels like it totally lacks direction.

It should instead be something like "Internal Legacy of Domination, you learn the cantrip thunderclap, on 3rd level you know the spell command, on 5th level you know the spell phantasmal force, you can cast one and so on and so forth" (if you or anyone reading this feel like these two spells are not fitting the theme of domination then just pretend I picked the perfect ones that you agree with, I refuse to get dragged into yet another pointless and obtuse debate on this forsaken forum).

Another example (one I like) is Bloodline of Glasya, "criminal mastermind, grants her tiefiings magic that is useful for committing heists.", minor illusion, disguise self and invisibility are very thematically good for committing heists, but I think the bloodline should call that out directly and not tie it to yet another setting specific NPC.
Call it instead "Bloodline of Larceny" (or some even better worded/more inspiring text)

If someone wants to play a tiefling in my non-forgotten realms campaign I'll talk to them about how to retrofit the legacy they want. The tiefling variants from SCAG I think are really good for exactly this. I hope that 5.5e PHB will be updated in exactly this fashion. That would go a long way to untie tieflings to the 9 hells specifically, let players have any fiendish lineage or touched by any evil plane. Now that I think about it I'd like for both planetouched and fiend-lineage'd options to be in the PHB since these are quite different IMO.

[sandmote]

I refuse to get dragged into yet another pointless and obtuse debate on this forsaken forum Noted, But I think the Bloodline of Fierna fits the concept described to an acceptable degree.


If someone wants to play a tiefling in my non-forgotten realms campaign I'll talk to them about how to retrofit the legacy they want. Following this theme, I usually use Bloodline of Zariel as a "Bloodline of Wrath," Bloodline of Mammon for a "Bloodline of Avarice," and Bloodline of Dispater for a "Bloodline of Treachery." Meanwhile, Levistus and Mephistopheles functionally have ice and fire themes, rather than for tieflings tied to a particular type of crime.

So while I do find specific lore trying to tie each bloodline to a particular Lord of the Nine to be a terrible idea on several levels, I do think they're done an okay job writing up functional themes.