Treants

[mehs]

So treants have a +20 CMB at CR 8, and have the animating trees ability to put essentially nigh infinitely renewing minions into play with nearly the same stats as you. They are slow yeah, but if you are in a forest and can't respond fast enough to them bein animated, through one means or another missing the turn that they take to unroot they will pretty much always be within range of you. That being said, is there anything really stopping 2-3 treants/their minions from walking up and grapple->pinning the entire party?

[Rleonardh]

Fireball...

[mehs]

that would get 2-3 of the minions at a time, and even though they will likely take 150% damage, they have the hp to allow for it.

[Kurald Galain]

That being said, is there anything really stopping 2-3 treants/their minions from walking up and grapple->pinning the entire party?
Let's see. 2-3 treants are a suitable encounter for a 9th-level party.

I'd expect martials at this level to have an unbuffed CMD of around 26, meaning the grapple/pin is not guaranteed; and also to be able to deal decent damage while grappled.
I'd expect casters to hit their awful reflex save with e.g. Web or Burst of Radiance and they're not going anywhere; or to hit their similarly awful touch AC with Empowered Scorching Ray (bam, halve its HP, no save); or to use Greater Invis or flight to stay untouched; or Liberating Command for a free almost-automatic escape; or even to have some form of Freedom of Movement available.

So that sounds like something a 9th-level party can handle, really.

[jmax]

They're treants. In a forest. It's their home turf. They're supposed to be potent there - it's the whole reason they exist.

You haven't mentioned what level the PCs are, but let's assume you mean 8th level. 2-3 treants would be a Very Difficult encounter for a party of 4 8th-level PCs.

It takes a full round for a tree to uproot itself, during which time it should be fairly obvious something is up with that tree. Animating a pair of trees is a standard action, so a treant can't do anything else meaningful in the round that it does the animating (including maintaining a grapple). The PCs should have time to get and stay out of reach unless they get ambushed - and they might do well to consider running away when faced with a forest full of angry trees.

If the treant already knows the PCs are coming, it can animate a couple of trees in advance. THAT's when things gets really deadly for the PCs, because they might never even see the actual treants if the treants just send the trees after the PCs. The PCs would have to defeat 4-6 animated trees at a time while trying to find the original treants.

But that should only be an issue if the treants want the PCs dead at first sight - treants are usually Neutral Good, so they probably won't slaughter indiscriminately unless faced with something they've repeatedly and reliably seen (in the last several thousand years) destroying their forests - perhaps a species that consistently comes with fire and axes, gnawing, hacking, breaking, biting, and burning.

So maybe when your PCs are traveling through a strange forest, they should be respectful and avoid wanton destruction. Build their fires carefully using only fallen deadwood (green wood is crappy for building fires anyway) and leaves/needles, taking care not to let the fire spread, and maybe foregoing fire entirely if everything is dry and a stray spark might set the whole forest ablaze. If you have an orc or maybe half-orc PC, things might get interesting. And of course most treants probably don't have a whole lot of consistent exposure to civilization, so even a party that might look perfectly respectable might have to explain in a hurry that they are not, in fact, orcs. As a man of questionable wisdom once said, "I can't believe I'm about to say this. So think real careful about where this is coming from: Have you people ever considered talking when you've got a problem?" (Harry Dresden, Turn Coat) (Hmm, this would make a great scene for a high fantasy book or movie.)

And if your PCs are trashing their way through a strange, old forest, smashing trees and setting things on fire for the hell of it... well, maybe they deserve what they get.

(Keep in mind that peacefully resolving such an encounter still counts as overcoming the challenge, so the PCs would get EXP. If they're cranky about not getting treasure out of it as well, they're exactly the sort of people that make treants want to kill all adventurers on sight.)

[Kurald Galain]

they might never even see the actual treants
Treants only have +7 to stealth. Most likely they get spotted.


treants are usually Neutral Good
But fair point on that. If the treants actually succeed in grappling the entire party, they'd most likely give the PCs a (lengthy and tedious) Stern Talking To, then literally throw them off their lawn. I mean forest.

[jmax]

Treants only have +7 to stealth. Most likely they get spotted.

I thought about bringing that up as well, but if the treants are animating trees from 100+ feet away, that gets a lot harder. Especially since the treants can remain motionless while doing so and have pretty good concealment from other trees. I think it's plausible for the PCs not to detect the treants until it's Too Late.

[Rleonardh]

That's the reason why I said fireball, ify character is going though a forest and trees attack
Flight
Greater invisibility
Fireballs
That forest will be on fire.

[mehs]

The party was 7th level actually. And our arcane caster is an arcanist, so only casting 3rd level spells. They did go school specialization to get extra spells per day, but specialized in enchantment and opposed evocation. Meaning most of their spells did nothing, though they did have fireball as their 2nd 3rd level that day because they knew it was treants.

We were fairly surrounded by trees, so couldn't really look around for the real treant except by killing every tree in our path, and while fireball could hit 2-3 at a time, 3 treants could make enough trees that we were consistently surrounded by 4, and trying to run out of range of the treants just split the party.

[Kurald Galain]

The party was 7th level actually.
So what's the rest of your party?

I wonder if your question is "we lost the battle, is my GM unfair?", or "we lost the battle, is this monster overpowered?", or "we lost the battle, did our party do something wrong?"

Is the GM unfair? Unless your party is very large, three treants is going to be a really tough encounter at level 7. Is this monster overpowered? Probably not, and as said before, treants are good-aligned so unlikely to flat-out kill your party. Is the party doing something wrong? Well, specializing in enchantment is problematic for an arcane caster, precisely because so many things are immune to it.

[mehs]

More of "how to prevent this (losing to grapples) in the future", especially since the cmb war seems to firmly be on the sides of the monsters who can easily get bonuses from size and arbitrary high hd and str. Alignment wise, these things started attacking the party as soon as the dwarf pulled out an axe to examine a random tree (just tapping it to hear inside).

The party is an arcanist, swashbuckler, earth-air kineticist, and a sacred hunter, as well as a level 5 shaman cohort healbot because we needed a healer.

[Crake]

When you say 2-3 treants/their minions, I assume you mean the 1 treant and it's 2 minions. Also, as you said, they move very slowly. 10ft per round slowly. And they have to spend a round uprooting. The solution is to just walk at a hurried pace away from them and use ranged attacks. They can only have 2 minions up at a time, so it's not like they can surround you. Just keep moving.

[mehs]

nah nah, 3 treants + their minions, usually 4 at any time. Though the actual treants were hanging back hiding, took us a while to find them. The encounter was probably too much for our party, and I'm thinking the balance issues stem from it being a sidequest (the main quest had a bunch of dead ends and I was talking too long, so I wanted the other players to be able to do something, so pushed for accepting the sidequest. I was the arcanist+shaman)

[Kurald Galain]

More of "how to prevent this in the future",
Arcanist should diversify his spells, to include defenses like Mirror Image, non-mind-affecting crowd control like Web, and Liberating Command. Likewise, Hunter should pick up crowd control like Burst of Radiance, and also Liberating Command; in addition, he should have a weapon that can be used in a grapple, and Planar Focus so he can deal fire damage in a grapple. Swashbuckler should have no problem with this CMB, and should likewise have a weapon he can use in a grapple. And yeah, earth kinnies are notoriously bad at versatility, so maybe he can switch elements?

But overall, this is a very tough encounter of multiple CR 8 monsters against a level 7 party.

[Rynjin]

The Arcanist could take Dimensional Slide as his next Exploit and never need to worry about being grappled again.

[mehs]

The Arcanist could take Dimensional Slide as his next Exploit and never need to worry about being grappled again.

I don't think dimensional slide let's you escape grapples, it has to be used as part of a move or withdraw action. Other than that, I did have mirror image and web prepared, but pretty much immediately started fireballing as we were effectively ambushed, surrounded by treant minions on all sides.

[jmax]

More of "how to prevent this (losing to grapples) in the future", especially since the cmb war seems to firmly be on the sides of the monsters who can easily get bonuses from size and arbitrary high hd and str. Alignment wise, these things started attacking the party as soon as the dwarf pulled out an axe to examine a random tree (just tapping it to hear inside).

The party is an arcanist, swashbuckler, earth-air kineticist, and a sacred hunter, as well as a level 5 shaman cohort healbot because we needed a healer.

At 8th level, your arcanist should be able to get Freedom of Movement (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/freedom-of-movement/). That's the end of grappling if you know in advance what you're facing. You could also get a wand of it (without having to wait), and then you have as much of it as you need whenever you need it. That's expensive, but maybe well worth it if you're very concerned about this particular problem.

EDIT: Derp. Not on the spell list for arcanists. (Got mixed up with some of my DM's homebrew.)

If 3.5 non-Core content is allowed in your game, your arcanist should be able to learn Heart of Water now. That lets you invoke 1 round/level Freedom of Movement as a swift action; Heart of Water itself lasts 1 hour/level until you invoke that. It doesn't help the rest of the party though.

[mehs]

Freedom of movement ain't a wizard/arcanist spell.

[jmax]

Freedom of movement ain't a wizard/arcanist spell.

Derp, sorry. Too used to some homebrew spell list changes my DM has made.

Use Magic Device is a class skill for arcanists, though - you can just get the wand. It's a very potent spell, and when you need it, you really need it. 420 gp/cast is pretty steep though.

[Maat Mons]

I'll 3rd Fly as a good way to avoid grappling, as long as you're not in an enclosed space. The Arcanist and Shaman both have access. If they could manage to get that cast on themselves, the Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor, and the Kineticist, the party would be in a pretty good spot. The Swashbuckler and Animal Companion need to be in melee anyway, so no real point in casting Fly on them.

Another good tactic is to Summon up a defensive line. It helps take some of the heat off of your melee party members, and makes it harder for enemies to get through to the casters. Though if you're surrounded in an open area, it could take a fair few Summons to completely block off enemy paths.

[Rynjin]

I don't think dimensional slide let's you escape grapples, it has to be used as part of a move or withdraw action. Other than that, I did have mirror image and web prepared, but pretty much immediately started fireballing as we were effectively ambushed, surrounded by treant minions on all sides.

Ahhh, I'd forgotten Dimensional Slide is worded differently than the Conjuration Arcane School ability that works similarly.

...So you could take School Understanding: Conjuration (Teleportation) in that case. =p

[Crake]

nah nah, 3 treants + their minions, usually 4 at any time. Though the actual treants were hanging back hiding, took us a while to find them. The encounter was probably too much for our party, and I'm thinking the balance issues stem from it being a sidequest (the main quest had a bunch of dead ends and I was talking too long, so I wanted the other players to be able to do something, so pushed for accepting the sidequest. I was the arcanist+shaman)

even then, 10ft/round movement plus a round to uproot means you can easily keep moving while avoiding their minions, and either they reveal themselves to keep pace with you, or you get away from them, in either case, seems like a win to me. Also, keep in mind, treants have no special senses, and only have +12 perception. You say they're hundreds of feet away and not moving, but how are they spotting the PCs from that far away then? The penalties for perception through the forest apply equally to them.

[rel]

Grappling doesn't really work in 3e.
Monsters have extreme bonuses which most PC's have very little chance of overcoming, but powers like freedom of movement exist that completely negate grappling.
So grapple focused monsters can be bit all or nothing in play.

The treant can rather effectively deny an area of woodland by skulking around and sending wave after wave of trees at the party, but they don't seem like especially problematic monsters.

[jmax]

The treant can rather effectively deny an area of woodland by skulking around and sending wave after wave of trees at the party, but they don't seem like especially problematic monsters.

I'm still really curious how the party ended up in pre-meditated combat with a bunch of treants. Short of actually intending to strip the forest, I can't really think of anything that couldn't be handled with diplomacy or avoidance.

That said, if combat was genuinely unavoidable, 3 treants against a party of 4 at 7th level is an Overpowering encounter by 3.5 standards. (I'm less well versed in Pathfinder). 2 treants would be Very Difficult. The guideline is that approximately 5% of encounters should be Overpowering and 15% Very Difficult, so this feels like (and sounds like) a seriously challenging but appropriate encounter, especially if it could be managed without combat. There will always be situations in which a particular encounter more or less difficult than typical for a specific party, and part of the challenge of the game is dealing with that through preparation, cleverness, and knowing which fights not to pick.

(If every encounter is specifically and deliberately exploiting gaps in the PCs' party make-up, that's potentially a problem - though there can be story-driven reasons for that as well.)

[mehs]

We saw a job posting that treants were attacking people. Nothing else much was happening, so we wandered into that patch of forest to investigate. The dwarf heard a sound from a tree so he took axe out to tap on a tree to see if it was hollow inside on presumption that there was someone inside the tree. That set the treants off.

There was theoretically a way to talk them down that one player went with, but the treant's kept attacking my arcanist and shaman, so we kept fireballing the head treant when we found him. The peaceful option seems to have been "actively spend turn making nice". Still to see what actually results. 2/4 of the party is grappled, 1/4 made nice, and 1/4 ran away.

Compared to 3.5, pf treants have +5 hd, which also gives a bunch of nifty tag alongs like an additional +5 to hit and and double crit range. And nearly double the hp. Encounter was CR 11, apl +4, which pathfinder doesn't really have. Highest pf goes is epic at apl +3.

[Jay R]

So treants have a +20 CMB at CR 8, and have the animating trees ability to put essentially nigh infinitely renewing minions into play with nearly the same stats as you. They are slow yeah, but if you are in a forest and can't respond fast enough to them bein animated, through one means or another missing the turn that they take to unroot they will pretty much always be within range of you. That being said, is there anything really stopping 2-3 treants/their minions from walking up and grapple->pinning the entire party?

Good creatures who are more powerful than the party? My usual way to keep them from walking up and grappling the party is to not take an axe to them whilst surrounded by thousands of their minions in their strongest location.

There is no positive result possible here that involves using an axe on them. None. That was a losing move.

If my teammate did this, I would instantly surrender to the treants, and hope for mercy.

[Kurald Galain]

We saw a job posting that treants were attacking people. Nothing else much was happening, so we wandered into that patch of forest to investigate. The dwarf heard a sound from a tree so he took axe out to tap on a tree to see if it was hollow inside on presumption that there was someone inside the tree. That set the treants off.
Ok, with this additional information, the GM is being totally fair and this is entirely the party's fault.

You knew there were treants in the forest. You proceed to enter the forest, get completely surrounded by trees, and take an axe to the tree. What did you THINK would happen? :smallamused:

I have the impression that there are mismatched expectations here. You appear to expect that every encounter is a fair fight, whereas the GM seems to expect that some creatures are well above the party and that direct combat is not always feasible. Both are valid playstyles but it helps to have everybody on the same page about this.

[mehs]

I don't know what the dwarf was thinking. I wasn't the dwarf, i was the arcanist. I am the face of the party what with +21 diplomacy at level 7, and most of the main questline had been talking to find information. I was worried about taking up too much time, so after hitting a dead end I pushed for us to take up a sidequest that the party could actually do things. I hung back for most of the pre-fight nonsense.

I'm not begrudging the above cr fight, im trying to figure out how to boost defenses against grappling because it seems weird that some beefy monsters could easily enough walk up and grapple the party.

[jmax]

There will always be someone stronger than you. Even someone who can just walk up and squish you like a bug for no reason. That's life for an adventuring party - but it means that sometimes there are fights you shouldn't pick. This time is was grappling, but next time it could be something completely different.

If you're really worried about grapples specifically, try to find a magic item that grants tactical teleportation or Freedom of Movement. If 3.5 content is allowed in your game, look at Ernir's Lists of Necessary Magic Items (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) for options. The spell Heart of Water (mentioned earlier) would also work nicely for your character specifically.

[Jay R]

Be glad they could grapple. If they couldn’t, they would likely have killed you, or at least knocked your entire party to negative hit points.


I'm not begrudging the above cr fight, im trying to figure out how to boost defenses against grappling because it seems weird that some beefy monsters could easily enough walk up and grapple the party.

Don't dismiss the unnecessary above-CR fight. This situation is not about grappling. The beefy monsters did not "walk up and grapple the party". The party started a fight that had no purpose, when surrounded by beefy monsters. This is about making a usually-fatal mistake, on purpose.

It is not true that there is some build or defense that will protect you from poor play. D&D can be played cleverly or poorly, and playing poorly will always make a difference that your abilities and equipment cannot overcome.

How do you avoid being hit by a car when you walk across a freeway blindfolded? Don’t walk across a freeway blindfolded.

How do you avoid being fried when you attack a red dragon when all bunched up in front of it?
Don’t attack a red dragon when all bunched up in front of it.

How do you survive attacking a 20th level wizard when he’s trying to hire you for a quest? Don’t attack a 20th level wizard when he’s trying to hire you for a quest

How do you avoid being grappled by treants after you take an axe to them when surrounded by their trees?
Don’t take an axe to them when surrounded by their trees.

That’s the answer, and there isn’t going to be another answer. No boosted defense can protect you from playing poorly.

[jmax]

That’s the answer, and there isn’t going to be another answer. No boosted defense can protect you from playing poorly.

That's fair and true, but it's also valid to want to shore up a legitimate weakness. I was surprised to see that Pathfinder is much more punitive with grappling consequences than 3.5 is - especially for spellcasters, for whom the Concentration check is now opposed by a grapple check instead of a fixed DC.

Still, I agree that the best way to avoid getting grappled is to avoid putting yourself in situations where you're vulnerable to being grappled.

[rel]

im trying to figure out how to boost defenses against grappling because it seems weird that some beefy monsters could easily enough walk up and grapple the party.

At low levels grease is a +10 to escape grapples and is actually ubiquitous enough to prepare or at least put on a wand or an oil.

By Mid levels you basically need FoM, so you need a third eye clarity, vest of free movement or a friendly cleric.

At high levels a ring of freedom is blanket protection against grappling and so many other things that its basically required.