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Adumbration
2007-11-28, 12:01 PM
What I mean is that is there any race/class/feat that prevent a monk from sucking?

I've been thinking about it myself: would Half-dragon paragon 3 / Monk X work? I think the breath weapon could make up for something, but is it worth taking 3 paragon levels?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-28, 12:02 PM
FINALLY! A NEW MONK DEBATE THREAD! FEED THE BEAST! FEED IT!

That aside, yes, there's a way. Add 1 level of psion, get lots of Knowledge (the planes), be a Kobold, and let it rip.

its_all_ogre
2007-11-28, 12:03 PM
not without houseruling some stuff, frankly.

turkishproverb
2007-11-28, 12:07 PM
Sure. Don't play with powergamers.

VerdugoExplode
2007-11-28, 12:08 PM
Half dragon is definitely not the way to go when improving a monk, especially considering the general debate as to whether the half dragon is even worth the level adjustment.

The best build for a decent unarmed combatant is monk 1/Swordsage 19. Otherwise you are shooting, er...punching yourself in the foot, whatever.

Mr. Friendly
2007-11-28, 12:09 PM
I like Decisive Strike as a class sub.

If you wanna burn the feats, Improved Critical + Roundabout Kick can (sometimes) be cool. I know there is some feat that lets you add some ridiculous amount of acid damge, all the monks in my group were using it, but I forget what its called.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-28, 12:12 PM
Sure. Play a Swordsage, and add some fluff to make it seem more monkish.

Adumbration
2007-11-28, 12:12 PM
Well, I'm sorry, that I'm still a bit on the newbie side.

*sigh*

Just... Just forget about it. Pretend that I didn't ask.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-28, 12:12 PM
Fist of Zuoken/Psionic Fist (depending on if you're looking at the SRD or at the XPH) makes it slightly more palatable. Going Monk/Fist of Zuoken/Illithid Slayer also has a lot of merit, though you lose out on a lot of what makes you a "monk."

Alternatively, mixing in some of those class-level stacking feats makes it more feasible too. Personally, I've been eyeballing a Lawful Good Paladin/Ninja/Monk with Ascetic Knight (CAdv, stacks Paladin and Monk levels for smites and unarmed strike progression), Ascetic Stalker (CScn, stacks Ninja and Monk levels for Ki Pool and Unarmed Strike), and Serenity (Dragon, I think, makes your Cha-based Paladin abilities Wis-based). It'd certainly be interesting to try out.

elliott20
2007-11-28, 12:13 PM
the way to make a monk not suck? don't play one. or don't play with people who optimize their characters.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-28, 12:13 PM
Nah, we have to thank you. We were bored and didn't have much to do, and you've given us a week or more of debating. How could we forget that?

PlatinumJester
2007-11-28, 12:16 PM
No but I have a way to get Gargantuan sized Unarmed Damage.

Goliath (large size for fists) + Permanent Enlarge Person (To get huge sized damage) + Improved Natural Attack (Gargantuan sized damage).

Now if you're playing an Unarmed Swordsage then get the the Stone Dragon Stance that makes you do damage at 1 sive larger so you do Fist damage at Collosal Size.

Then get Superior Unarmed Strike and a Monks Belt. At level 9 you will do damage as a Level 18 Collosal Size Monk.
Now what's not to like about that?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-28, 12:21 PM
Powerful build doesn't work that way. YOU aren't a size cathegory larger, so your fists aren't. Unless this is one of those "RAW starts being so stupid it's not funny" situation.

It's also better to you a psionic Expansion, which gets you to huge, and use a psionic Permanence to be permanently huge sized. Collossal+ damage, here we come!

Adumbration
2007-11-28, 12:23 PM
Ah, well, since we're already in the fray, can monks use gauntlets (say, with spikes) to increase their damage? Or does it not count as "unarmed" anymore?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-28, 12:24 PM
Yes, they can...but they're not proficient with it. They're nerfed on purpose, I say!

PlatinumJester
2007-11-28, 12:25 PM
Powerful build doesn't work that way. YOU aren't a size cathegory larger, so your fists aren't. Unless this is one of those "RAW starts being so stupid it's not funny" situation.

It's also better to you a psionic Expansion, which gets you to huge, and use a psionic Permanence to be permanently huge sized. Collossal+ damage, here we come!

Ogre then.

Craig1f
2007-11-28, 12:26 PM
Monks suck at combat compared to other combat classes, but they have a lot of positives.

-They have ridiculous listen and spot scores, because those are class skills and monks usually have very high wisdom scores.

-They're great at intercepting fleeing enemies, with their ridiculous land speed.

-They have high saves, making them harder to take down with Save or Die spells.

-They're the best to have in a prison-escape situation.

-Trip and stunning fist can be very useful.

-With high tumble scores, they can move to where they need to be quickly.

Monks are nice as long as they're not the primary melee combatant. However, they do have a lot of shortcomings against a lot of things. But so does everyone else.

Adumbration
2007-11-28, 12:26 PM
You know, I just had the funniest mental image of a dragon with boxing gloves.

Dragons with monk levels.... >.<

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-28, 12:27 PM
And they can diplocheese. Never forget their greatest feature!

lord_khaine
2007-11-28, 12:31 PM
can monks use gauntlets (say, with spikes) to increase their damage? Or does it not count as "unarmed" anymore

if you spend a feat on simple weapon proficiency you can use gauntlets, and that goes a long way towards improving your monk.

besides that their is a feat from secrets of sarlona, that allows your monk levels to stack with levels in a psionic class, for the purpose of determening unarmede damage and flurry (it might do more, dont have the book with me atm)

Fax Celestis
2007-11-28, 12:34 PM
Powerful build doesn't work that way. YOU aren't a size cathegory larger, so your fists aren't. Unless this is one of those "RAW starts being so stupid it's not funny" situation.

It's also better to you a psionic Expansion, which gets you to huge, and use a psionic Permanence to be permanently huge sized. Collossal+ damage, here we come!

Actually, it does.


Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.
Unarmed strike damage is modified by size, and is altered by powerful build according to the bolded part above.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-28, 12:36 PM
-They're great at intercepting fleeing enemies, with their ridiculous land speed.
In other words, they start to shine when the party has already won the battle. That about sums it up :smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-28, 12:38 PM
Niiiiiiiiiice. This means:

Large fists by default + 1 increment from imp. nat. attack + 2 from uncarnate augmented expansion + stone dragons stance = colossal+ right there. Any way to get to Colossal++ or higher?

Attilargh
2007-11-28, 12:40 PM
And they can diplocheese. Never forget their greatest feature!
In which they are outclassed by the Aristocrat. Not entirely unlike many other fields of expertise, such as, say, combat.

Snadgeros
2007-11-28, 12:40 PM
ANOTHER monk thread? Aw hell, here we go again. I still stand by the fact that the monk does not suck. However, he is commonly viewed this way because his abilities are so spread out that he doesn't really fill any common role. Among the things he has going for him are fantastic saves, incredible movement, high AC (without armor too!), very few things he neds to buy, flurry of blows (I'll talk about that in a minute), and a bunch of cool fluff stuff like immunity to poison. However, he is deemed useless by many because he doesn't do other stuff as well as other characters. He can fight, but not as well as a fighter. He has skills, but not as many as a rogue. The problem with the monk is that he's unspecialized, but as such, can make a decent 5th man if you already have the other roles filled (he'd act as a Plan B).

If you want a quick homebrew fix, make flurry of blows a standard action. Right there, he's instantly awesome. Maybe also full BAB if you really want to. Then just take spring attack and voila! You've got a combat role: hit and run! Combined with mobility, dodge, a monk's high movement and ranks in tumble, he'll get around any battlefield pummeling the crap out of anyone he passes.

On another note: I'm currently playing a monk/drunken master and it works great. Since the drunken master adds extra damage onto his unarmed damage (something the monk has plenty of) I'm quickly becoming a damage-dealing monstrosity (not on the level of a wizard, but at least a fighter). Not to mention all of the cool improvised weapon stuff (10-foot reach weapon ladders? Yes please!)

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-28, 12:42 PM
Not filling any common role EQUALS sucking, for most.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-28, 12:45 PM
Greater Mighty Wallop. +1 Size Category per 4 levels of a bludgeoning weapon.

LA+1/Monk 1/Wizard 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Full Casting PRC 2.

Powerful Build: Large
Improved Natural Attack: Huge
Expansion: Gargantuan, Colossal
Stone Dragon Stance: Dimunative+
Greater Mighty Wallop: Tiny+, Small+, and Medium+

EDIT: Also - Making Monks Not Suck (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52025).

EDIT#2: Oops, forgot to note that you should take Expanded Knowledge(Expansion) for your Psion.

Dode
2007-11-28, 01:01 PM
awesome not-sucking monk builds

Monk1/Wizard12/Archmage5/Wizard2

Monk1/Cleric5/RSoP10/Cleric4

Draz74
2007-11-28, 01:12 PM
Well, I'm sorry, that I'm still a bit on the newbie side.
*sigh*
Just... Just forget about it. Pretend that I didn't ask.

Sorry for the rude responses ...


Alternatively, mixing in some of those class-level stacking feats makes it more feasible too. Personally, I've been eyeballing a Lawful Good Paladin/Ninja/Monk with Ascetic Knight (CAdv, stacks Paladin and Monk levels for smites and unarmed strike progression), Ascetic Stalker (CScn, stacks Ninja and Monk levels for Ki Pool and Unarmed Strike), and Serenity (Dragon, I think, makes your Cha-based Paladin abilities Wis-based). It'd certainly be interesting to try out.

I like this!


Goliath (large size for fists) + Permanent Enlarge Person (To get huge sized damage) + Improved Natural Attack (Gargantuan sized damage).

Enlarge Person doesn't work on Goliaths. Nor Ogres.


Yes, they can...but they're not proficient with it. They're nerfed on purpose, I say!

Technically, they're no more proficient with unarmed strikes than with gauntlets. :smallyuk: Personally, since this needs to be houseruled anyway, I don't like the image of Monks wearing gauntlets, so I'd prefer to allow them to "enchant" their fists via magic bracers or something.


You know, I just had the funniest mental image of a dragon with boxing gloves.

Dragons with monk levels.... >.<

He'd have to be pretty high level before his Monk unarmed attacks would do more damage than his normal claw/bite/tail/wing natural attacks. Could be an interesting monster concept, though.


Actually, it does.

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

Unarmed strike damage is modified by size, and is altered by powerful build according to the bolded part above.

Sorry, but that's a ridiculous interpretation of Powerful Build's text. The subject of unarmed strike damage is totally out of line with the examples given, like grapple/trip/bull rush modifiers. Besides, the term "modifier" is defined a little more precisely than that:


Modifiers

A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.

I don't think the amount and kind of dice that are rolled for an unarmed attack qualifies. Powerful Build doesn't improve unarmed strike damage (although it would make sense as a houserule ... but Goliaths really don't need the help).


If you want a quick homebrew fix, make flurry of blows a standard action. Right there, he's instantly awesome. Maybe also full BAB if you really want to.

I don't agree with much of what Snadgeros said, at least not in a campaign where people optimize more. (It could all be very true in his campaign.) But these are indeed two easy fixes that go a long way toward making the Monk much more powerful. Although personally I find the Full BAB Fix very unaesthetic, as it turns the Monk into something he's not, in my book. But I wholeheartedly recommend the Flurry fix.


Not filling any common role EQUALS sucking, for most.

True ... unless your party finds creative ways to work together and to work around the lack of certain roles in itself.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-28, 01:14 PM
Monk1/Wizard12/Archmage5/Wizard2

Try.. Wizard 5/Incantatrix 8/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 with a Monk's Belt and Cardemine Monk. That makes a Monk that doesn't suck. :smallbiggrin:

Theli
2007-11-28, 01:43 PM
Incidentally, if you didn't want to multi-class/prc for some insane reason... and you don't mind Eberron material...

Warforged with Battle Fist, Improved Natural Attack, and the belt from, iirc, Secrets of Xendrik that lets you increase your size for a number of rounds.

So that's already 2-3, legit, size increases, the Battle Fist can be enhanced as a regular weapon (and is a lot cheaper than the Amulet of Mighty Fists), and lets you keep gaining natural unarmed strike gains...

So at level 20 thats... 6d8 or (I think) 8d8 damage per strike... Along with whatever other feats you feel like taking. (Additionally, Composite armor doesn't interfere with monk abilities. So you don't even lose a 1st level feat.)

And you can still ask an ally for Greater Mighty Wallop. (Assuming that it stacks.)

But yeah, it's a good deal easier to get higher damage with other builds...which means that if you do play a monk you should also work towards some kind of other shtick. Such as being the party's face or something tricky.

ocato
2007-11-28, 01:43 PM
I was kind of thinking that maybe monks should get a small (ranger/paladin sized) amount of divine casting. Give them some of the buff spells everyone else has had forever (protection from evil, magic weapon, maybe barkskin) and the cure/inflict line and they might benefit pretty nicely. If nothing else, this would give them wand usage and off-healing. I mean, you'd give them a few divine spells and maybe an arcane spell or two (enlarge person, true strike). Then let them punch people with inflict critical wounds and they might end up going a little further. I'm kind of seeing the Final Fantasy Tactics monk who had a healing ability and served as a surrogate paladin for the game (hard hitter, hard to kill, healed and de-debuffed). I mean, 4th level spells wouldn't be broken anymore than they are for ranger and paladin (both of which have full BaB mind you).

Alex12
2007-11-28, 01:45 PM
I'm just using the SRD for this and I'm just kinda making it up (so it's far from optimized) but here's my attempt . Feel free to laugh at my suckitude.
Fighter 2/Monk 7/Shadowdancer

Hzurr
2007-11-28, 01:47 PM
One way to keep them from not sucking, is to roll really good stats. One of the biggest complaints about monks is that they don't really have dump stats, so if you roll straight 18s, that's one pimptastic monk.

Artanis
2007-11-28, 01:49 PM
One way to keep them from not sucking, is to roll really good stats. One of the biggest complaints about monks is that they don't really have dump stats, so if you roll straight 18s, that's one pimptastic monk.
...that'd be a "pimptastic" anything.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-28, 01:53 PM
Aye. Such a character is frickin' Captain America or Superman. A HEALER is good with those stats.

KBF
2007-11-28, 02:53 PM
Yeah, but the point is he can fill any role better than the 'proper' class with those stats.

Remember: If you ever roll three or more 18s, at least 2 other stats above 13, and nothing below 12, you can make an awesome monk.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-28, 02:55 PM
AAmong the things he has going for him are fantastic saves, incredible movement, high AC (without armor too!), very few things he neds to buy, flurry of blows (I'll talk about that in a minute), and a bunch of cool fluff stuff like immunity to poison.

Ah, the usual fallacies.

Monks are more dependent on magical gear than most other classes. Moving faster than 30' is nice, but moving faster than 60' is usually irrelevant. Immunity to poison is easy to get from cheap magical items. Et cetera.

"The monk is great if he does X" is a very poor argument if everybody is great if he does X. And also "I like monks therefore they're not underpowered" is the common non sequitur.

I second the Incantatrix-with-Monk's-Belt.

Yami
2007-11-28, 03:43 PM
I've actually seen a monk not suck. Or perhaps, not suck in regards to the rest of the party, but one of them was a powergamer, so I think the monk worked. (Though it might have just been that the campiagn ended before lvl 10.)

One thing that makes a character good is often specialization. The problem with the monk is that it wants to go everywhere. Barabrians are good at fighting, wizards and CoDzilla are good at owning, etc...

It the campaign I mentioned, the player played a grapple monk. Sadly, I have forgotten what he used to augment his skills besides the obvious, but one should not underestime the ability of grapple to completely screw with the DM's encounters.

There is also a cleric buff out there that is just sick and wrong for grapplers, but again, I forgot where.

Frosty
2007-11-28, 03:46 PM
Grappling is great until enemies learn how to cast 4th level spells.

timmy_pyromancer
2007-11-28, 03:51 PM
The problem with being a warforged is unless you spend a feat to be unarmored then you loss the majority of your cool monk stuff. Such as the wis to ac or flurry of blows.

My suggestion for taking monk is to go into shou disciple from unapproachable east while the book isnt fully 3.5 compatible it still works well its rather close. The shou disciple gets the flurry progression and gets to do it with weapons (any melee ones at 5 levels) and gets to wear armor (still loses the wisdom and monk ac bonuses) and gets +3 dodge bonus and finally full bad while keeping 2 good saves.

Edit: the biggest problem with the idea that a monk is a good grappler is that they dont get uncanny dodge which means if someone were to attack them in the grapple the monk will end up dead. oh that and freedom of movement. If you are going to play a grapple monk i would suggest taking the Vigilant Monk variant from dragon magazine #310 p45.

Theli
2007-11-28, 04:01 PM
The problem with being a warforged is unless you spend a feat to be unarmored then you loss the majority of your cool monk stuff. Such as the wis to ac or flurry of blows.

This is not true. I even covered it in my original post:


(Additionally, Composite armor doesn't interfere with monk abilities. So you don't even lose a 1st level feat.)

Specifically from the 3.5 FAQ:


Is a warforged considered to be wearing armor for the
purpose of using special abilities, such as a monk’s fast
movement?
The composite plating of a typical warforged doesn’t count
as armor. Certain warforged feats, such as Adamantine Body
(EBERRON Campaign Setting, page 50) specifically state that the
character is considered to be wearing armor, and thus would
limit use of such abilities.

So yes, warforged monks even get a +2 to ac on top of everything else (at the cost of a +6 max dex bonus to AC.)

playswithfire
2007-11-28, 04:05 PM
War Mind can be useful with the Monastic Training and Tashalatora feats from Eberron (make the psionic class of your choice stack with monk for unarmed damage, flurry, maybe other stuff; have to recheck). Wisdom based psychic warrior powers and sweeping strike or whatever it's called so that you get to make all your melee attacks against each of 2 adjacent characters

RS14
2007-11-28, 04:45 PM
can monks use gauntlets (say, with spikes) to increase their damage? Or does it not count as "unarmed" anymore
if you spend a feat on simple weapon proficiency you can use gauntlets, and that goes a long way towards improving your monk.


Actually, it's more complicated than this. You can certainly use gauntlets, and do not take a non-proficiency penalty if you have simple weapon proficiency.
The RAW are not clear if you can flurry with gauntlets or if you receive monk unarmed damage.

Gauntlets "let you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes" according to the SRD. By a literal reading, anything which applies to unarmed strikes (including damage and the ability to flurry) also applies to your gauntlet attacks. On the other hand, 'gauntlet' appear as a separate attack on the table and so can be argued to be totally distinct. A pair of FAQ entries (which seem to have been removed) addressed this, but were mutually contradictory despite one falling directly after the other. The current (10/19/2007) FAQ states in response to a question about getting monk unarmed strikes enchanted that "Even a magic gauntlet or spiked gauntlet isn’t the ideal answer, since these aren’t listed as special monk weapons (and therefore aren’t as versatile as unarmed strikes)," which seems to support the later reading.
In either case, spiked gauntlets are treated in all other places in the rules as no different than other weapons, and they are not 'special monk weapons'. Nothing in the rules suggests that you should be able to flurry or get monk unarmed damage with a spiked gauntlet.

timmy_pyromancer
2007-11-28, 04:49 PM
Theli, sorry about that somehow i managed to miss that in your post. Its good to know that it doesnt interfere with their abilities. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

martyboy74
2007-11-28, 06:11 PM
Actually, it does.


Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

Unarmed strike damage is modified by size, and is altered by powerful build according to the bolded part above.

I call shenanigans. If you look at the part that I italicized, it says "for an opposed check". Unarmed damage is not an opposed check (unless you're going to try and arguement that it's an opposed check against their hit points :smallamused:), and thus isn't affected by this.

As a houserule, on the other hand, I would allow immediately under the "A <race> can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty." clause of Powerful Build and the "Common sense applies" clause of being a DM.

Kaelik
2007-11-28, 06:27 PM
I call shenanigans. If you look at the part that I italicized, it says "for an opposed check". Unarmed damage is not an opposed check (unless you're going to try and arguement that it's an opposed check against their hit points :smallamused:), and thus isn't affected by this.

As a houserule, on the other hand, I would allow immediately under the "A <race> can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty." clause of Powerful Build and the "Common sense applies" clause of being a DM.

Except everyone keeps missing that the unitalicized part is a separate case. Powerful Build applies to

1. Any size modifier or
2. Any special size modifier for an opposed check.

That means that it does apply not non-opposed checks all the time. As long as their is a size modifier involved.

If you want to argue that it doesn't work you need to use the "modifier" definition to prove that unarmed strike damage due to size is not a modifier.

holywhippet
2007-11-28, 07:34 PM
In combat the monk is good as an anti-magic user character. Save or die attacks are more likely to fail, and improved evasion means that a lot of spells will simply do nothing. Wizards and sorcerers have lousy fortitude saves so you use stunning fist to stop them in their tracks. Pump up the monks tumble skill so you can bypass any meatshields in your way as well.

One trick for monks is to use the weapon finesse feat for whatever you plan to use (or just stick with unarmed). Then forget high strength and pump everything into dexterity. That will help with your armour class as well.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-11-28, 07:37 PM
The easiest way to make a monk not suck is just to house-rule it. Give him full BAB and let him spend a feat to apply wis instead of strength to damage dealt. Combined with finesse, that helps with MAD, reducing it to Dex, Con, and Wis.

Or just, you know, play a swordsage.

holywhippet
2007-11-28, 07:47 PM
The easiest way to make a monk not suck is just to house-rule it. Give him full BAB and let him spend a feat to apply wis instead of strength to damage dealt. Combined with finesse, that helps with MAD, reducing it to Dex, Con, and Wis.

Or just, you know, play a swordsage.

That would be excessive I think. Giving a monk the BAB of a fighter means they are as strong as a fighter when it comes to dishing out damage. But the fighter doesn't have all the benefits that a monk gets - saving throws etc.

The game I'm playing in is strict 3.0 core rules. No classes other than those listed in the players handbook.

goken04
2007-11-28, 07:47 PM
Personally, I've been eyeballing a Lawful Good Paladin/Ninja/Monk with Ascetic Knight (CAdv, stacks Paladin and Monk levels for smites and unarmed strike progression), Ascetic Stalker (CScn, stacks Ninja and Monk levels for Ki Pool and Unarmed Strike), and Serenity (Dragon, I think, makes your Cha-based Paladin abilities Wis-based). It'd certainly be interesting to try out.

I had a build much like this once (before my harddrive crashed.. no paper copy, I'm afraid). With Wisdom to all my saves plus monk saves, my saves were ungodly. I also used the feat hammerfist (Dragon, I believe; allows you to make unarmed attacks as if 2-handed) and a wand of the paladin's spell Rhino's Rush (next charge deals double damage), along with various other buffs, that allowed my Monk-Paladin to consistently do 150-200 damage on a charge at level 12. Granted, not the most powerful thing to grace level 12, but he could still one-shot a ton of equal-CR creatures, plus had incredible survivability (all saves between 25-30, w/o cloak of resistence.)

puppyavenger
2007-11-28, 08:19 PM
That would be excessive I think. Giving a monk the BAB of a fighter means they are as strong as a fighter when it comes to dishing out damage. But the fighter doesn't have all the benefits that a monk gets - saving throws etc.

The game I'm playing in is strict 3.0 core rules. No classes other than those listed in the players handbook.

does this include feats races et cetra?

Kaelik
2007-11-28, 08:33 PM
That would be excessive I think. Giving a monk the BAB of a fighter means they are as strong as a fighter when it comes to dishing out damage. But the fighter doesn't have all the benefits that a monk gets - saving throws etc.

The game I'm playing in is strict 3.0 core rules. No classes other than those listed in the players handbook.

Right except everyone else is playing 3.5 and without core, and so it seems is the original poster. So what you are playing doesn't matter.

Secondly, even if you were playing 3.0 BAB doesn't help a Monk keep up in damage because he still can't match the magic bonuses to damage, and he power attacks for half as much. So he pretty much sucks.

But my favorite Monk defense is this one:
In combat the monk is good as an anti-magic user character. Save or die attacks are more likely to fail, and improved evasion means that a lot of spells will simply do nothing. Wizards and sorcerers have lousy fortitude saves so you use stunning fist to stop them in their tracks. Pump up the monks tumble skill so you can bypass any meatshields in your way as well.

Mostly just because of how wrong it is. Lets go over this again.

1.) You can't ever hit the Wizard, he is flying, you fail
2.) Wizards have plenty of ways to deal with you that don't use saves, not that they will because they can literally ignore you while focusing on taking out the actual threats to their minions/allies/selves.
3.) Improved evasion effects one spell that Wizards actually use, it's called Resilient Sphere. But they won't waste that on you sense the point of the spell is to make someone completely useless to their allies but temporarily protected, and it takes exactly zero castings to put a Monk in that situation.
4.) Wizards have pretty good Fort saves actually, better then any rogues or other skill monkeys, also, they can just make themselves immune to stunning.

Quietus
2007-11-28, 09:09 PM
1.) You can't ever hit the Wizard, he is flying, you fail
2.) Wizards have plenty of ways to deal with you that don't use saves, not that they will because they can literally ignore you while focusing on taking out the actual threats to their minions/allies/selves.
3.) Improved evasion effects one spell that Wizards actually use, it's called Resilient Sphere. But they won't waste that on you sense the point of the spell is to make someone completely useless to their allies but temporarily protected, and it takes exactly zero castings to put a Monk in that situation.
4.) Wizards have pretty good Fort saves actually, better then any rogues or other skill monkeys, also, they can just make themselves immune to stunning.

Okay, first off, let's start with : If your DM is always sending batman wizards at you, and CoDzillas, then by the ideas of these boards, EVERY non-full-caster will suck. Now, that being said, it's also worth noting that you'll then gain a lot of money very quickly as a result of gaining stacks of nightsticks, greater metamagic rods of quicken, and 1,500 GP ruby dust or whatever it is that constitutes the material component of Forcecage... and that's not even including spellbook gains.

Second, how often is it that a non-spellcaster gets up into the high levels without some way of reasonably being capable of flight?

Third, the only way I've seen on these boards for a wizard to become immune to stunning is via heavy +1 fortification mithril bucklers. Easy enough to disarm (Not a weapon? -4. Oh, poor base attack and low strength? Too bad bud. Gimme that, and now eat a stun if you would.), and again, you'll very soon become very wealthy.

Lemur
2007-11-28, 09:14 PM
Linking to someone else's idea (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=11564698&postcount=154) doesn't really seem like I'm actually contributing, but I'd say it's a build that retains its monkishness without sucking. You're not gonna break games with it either, but the thread clearly asked about not sucking, and not being able to kill wizards (which seems like how these discussions always end up).

Koolzo
2007-11-29, 02:05 PM
Half-Orc Monk
Intelligence isn't' that necessary (although the -1 skill point can suck), and the strength boost helps to hit and damage (unless you go down the weapon finesse route).

Weapon Focus (Fists)
Improved Natural Attack
(Any other feats you all listed to increase monk damage)
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Trip (as a monk special ability)

Monk's Belt
(Whatever those gauntlets are that give you bonuses to unarmed attack and damage)
Periapt of Wisdom
Gloves of Dex
Other AC boosters

Honestly, the only problems I find with monks are that:

1.) THE ATTACK BONUS!!! You can pump up a monk's damage to nearly eye-boggling levels, but that doesn't help you if you can't hit anything. So, pump up your hit with either a high strength or take weapon finesse. Or, alternatively, just increase the number of attacks per round your monk gets (2-weapon fighting and improved 2-weapon fighting).
2.) Lack of ranged attacks.
3.) d8 HP is a killer, that's for sure.
4.) They're not really the best at anything (on the other hand, they're not the worst at anything, either)...

But their good qualities are amazing!

1.) High speed. Max out tumble, and unless you roll a natural one, you can go wherever the hell you want.
2.) Immunity to disease and poison. One thing that no one who fights ever wants happening is having your strength, dex, or con decreased from frickin' poison!
3.) Slow fall. C'mon, pit traps happen. (Not the most useful, but sometimes it is)
4.) Spell resistance. If the spellcaster can't affect you, they can't hurt you.
5.) No aging. If you start at a high enough level, then just make a venerable monk. Massive bonuses to wis!!! (Okay, so this is not a good agrugment, probably, because not many people start at this high of a level)
6.) Flurry of blows. Having more attacks is great.
7.) Increased damage. If you can deal more damage than the fighter on a hit (at least the base damage, if not the bonus for str, magic, and wepaon spec), you're doing pretty well.
8.) AC. Honestly, if your touch is not higher than your flat-footed, you're doing something wrong. A level 10 monk should have over 30 AC, which is up with the rest of the party, at least, if not better. My monk had a 37 AC (I believe...).
9.) Overall they're just useful.

I dunno. I can see why a lot of people think that monks suck, but there are a bunch of good qualities that monks have, too. Whether they outshine the bad is your opinion, but they cannot be ignored. Monks have good and bad qualities, and overall, they're suitable for a myriad of different situations.

Jayabalard
2007-11-29, 02:10 PM
the best way imo is to not base your perception on whether a character is good or "sucks" on it's mechanical effectiveness.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-11-29, 02:26 PM
That would be excessive I think. Giving a monk the BAB of a fighter means they are as strong as a fighter when it comes to dishing out damage. But the fighter doesn't have all the benefits that a monk gets - saving throws etc.

That's right, a fighter does however get a better hit dice, more feats and better weapon/armour proficiencies and no need of wisdom. Besides all that the fighter's still not exactly the pinnacle of power nor the perfect example of balance.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-29, 02:41 PM
Getting back to the thread topic ...

I've thought for a while that a monk X/fist of zuoken 10 wouldn't be too bad. It actually resolves many of the biggest complaints about monks, such as:

1. Monks are obviously supposed to be mobile combatants, but they can't use their signature flurry of blows while moving. (Psionic Lion's Charge and Hustle resolve this.)

2. Monks can't use magic weapons while striking unarmed, and the Amulet of Mighty Fists is grossly overpriced and undergood. (Metaphysical Weapon resolves this.)

3. Monks being unable to wear armor makes them very squishy, or else they have to spend even more money on Bracers of Armor. (Inertial Armor resolves this.)

4. Monks suffer from severe MAD. (Animal Affinity re ... er ... well, sort of resolves some of this, a little.)

I've never actually played a character like this, so I'm only speculating, but it seems to me that with intelligent feat choices (be sure to pick up Improved Natural Attack, etc.) and focusing on Strength like a good meleer, a character like this wouldn't be bad. No, you wouldn't be wizard-level, but wizards are broken, so what's that got to do with anything?

Kaelik
2007-11-29, 02:53 PM
Okay, first off, let's start with : If your DM is always sending batman wizards at you, and CoDzillas, then by the ideas of these boards, EVERY non-full-caster will suck. Now, that being said, it's also worth noting that you'll then gain a lot of money very quickly as a result of gaining stacks of nightsticks, greater metamagic rods of quicken, and 1,500 GP ruby dust or whatever it is that constitutes the material component of Forcecage... and that's not even including spellbook gains.

First of all, they have encounter treasure the same as everyone else, Do you face high level characters who don't have anything expensive? Really? Think about that for a moment.

Secondly, I never said that they only face Batman wizards, just that if you claim a character is useful because even though they suck against goblins/orcs/wraiths/demons/devils/celestials/oozes /undead/fighters/barbarians/clerics/rogues ect...
They can do a good job against Wizards. If you claim that, then they need to actually be able to do something to Wizards. You know, to help the party.


Second, how often is it that a non-spellcaster gets up into the high levels without some way of reasonably being capable of flight?

And how often is there a Wizard that can't fly faster then you while simultaneously being able to deprive you of your flight with a single swift action. Answer: never unless your wings are natural (Raptoran/whatever)


Third, the only way I've seen on these boards for a wizard to become immune to stunning is via heavy +1 fortification mithril bucklers. Easy enough to disarm (Not a weapon? -4. Oh, poor base attack and low strength? Too bad bud. Gimme that, and now eat a stun if you would.), and again, you'll very soon become very wealthy.

Do you even read these boards? Or the hoard of Monk threads? We've been over this many times. Wizards can become undead for free via Necropolitian. Wizards can cast hour per level buffs that grant immunity to stunning. In fact with a single 7th level slot they can be immune to stun/paralysis/poison/crits/Sneak Attack/Some other stuff I can't remember and gain a 60ft perfect fly speed all day.

But my favorite spell is Viel of Undeath. For 10 minutes per caster level (hours by the time you get it) you become like an undead in that you are immune to everything they are. Unlike an undead, you become immune to actually dieing too.

holywhippet
2007-11-29, 04:07 PM
does this include feats races et cetra?

Yes. Basically "no splat books".

brian c
2007-11-29, 04:21 PM
Except everyone keeps missing that the unitalicized part is a separate case. Powerful Build applies to

1. Any size modifier or
2. Any special size modifier for an opposed check.

That means that it does apply not non-opposed checks all the time. As long as their is a size modifier involved.

If you want to argue that it doesn't work you need to use the "modifier" definition to prove that unarmed strike damage due to size is not a modifier.

Well, this is the part that's unclear. What the rules say is

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

So there are two interpretations here

1) Whenever (the character) is subject to a size modifier --- or to a special size modifier for an opposed check --- treat as one size larger if beneficial.

2) Whenever (the character) is subject to -- a size modifier or special size modifier -- treat as one size larger if beneficial.

In interpretation 1), which you favor, there are two possible conditions. My interpretation is 2) in which those are two possible ways to satisfy the same condition.



Anyway, about monks: my Abyssal Monk of Doom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63753) is a Cleric 1 / Human Paragon 3 / Monk 2 / Sacred Fist 10 / Pious Templar 4 monk build using Abyssal Heritor feats from Fiendish Codex I.

Indon
2007-11-29, 04:22 PM
Among other earlier noted things, a light salting of polymorph cheese (courteously provided by the party Wizard) will put you on par or ahead of most of the rest of your party. Just be careful that your polymorph cheese doesn't make you MonkZilla.

I'm serious. Polymorph is powerful by itself and it synergizes better with the Monk than most other classes.

holywhippet
2007-11-29, 04:25 PM
1.) You can't ever hit the Wizard, he is flying, you fail
2.) Wizards have plenty of ways to deal with you that don't use saves, not that they will because they can literally ignore you while focusing on taking out the actual threats to their minions/allies/selves.
3.) Improved evasion effects one spell that Wizards actually use, it's called Resilient Sphere. But they won't waste that on you sense the point of the spell is to make someone completely useless to their allies but temporarily protected, and it takes exactly zero castings to put a Monk in that situation.
4.) Wizards have pretty good Fort saves actually, better then any rogues or other skill monkeys, also, they can just make themselves immune to stunning.

1) Monks tend to attract high DEX. High DEX = good ranged attack bonuses. If the enemy is flying, hit them with ranged weapons. Even better, load up on bolts with a dispel magic enchantment on them. Wizard go splat. Of course, that assumes a wizard knows the fly spells, has it memorised and isn't afraid of it being dispelled.

2) See 1. A flying wizard is a clear target for the entire party to shoot at. Fly doesn't help indoors much either - especially if the monk has enough ranks in jump and climb.

3) I don't follow your comment. If they target the monk with this spell then it's unlikely to work as you can get out of it with a reflex saving throw.

4) What rulebook are you looking at? A wizards fort saves bonuses by level are exactly the same as those of a rogue. Along with bards, they are all at the bottom end of the fort save bonuses.

FinalJustice
2007-11-29, 04:49 PM
Among other earlier noted things, a light salting of polymorph cheese (courteously provided by the party Wizard) will put you on par or ahead of most of the rest of your party. Just be careful that your polymorph cheese doesn't make you MonkZilla.

I'm serious. Polymorph is powerful by itself and it synergizes better with the Monk than most other classes.

I totally second this. I use it on my 15th level enlighted fist to get him MonkZilla. First I use enlarge person so my equip grows (although my DM isn't bitchy about polymorphing equips), then I Draconic Polymorph (draconomicon) into Wartroll. When things get nasty (big boss coming) I use Bite of Weretiger (Spell Compendium). Plus, I use Ring of Arcana II to double my 2th level spells, which allows me some Wraithstrike+power attack abuse. It's cool watch villains getting scared of the former str12-con14-smiling-pretty-much-unharmful-dude when he goes tigertrollzilla. =D

Polymorph allows you to get bigger, thus raising unarmed damage/grapple, it pumps up your physical stats and you can ask the cleric for some healing so you can make better use of temporary Hit Poins. Wartroll is ridiculously perfect for this, to the point of brokeness.

Kaelik
2007-11-29, 04:54 PM
1) Monks tend to attract high DEX. High DEX = good ranged attack bonuses. If the enemy is flying, hit them with ranged weapons. Even better, load up on bolts with a dispel magic enchantment on them. Wizard go splat. Of course, that assumes a wizard knows the fly spells, has it memorised and isn't afraid of it being dispelled.

Wizards can (and do) protect themselves against ranged weapons. But I'm sure the Wizard enjoys you wasting your money on bolts that do nothing.

Does the Wizard know fly? Of course. Does he use it (especially the ones that last all day)? Of course. Is he afraid of it being dispelled? No. Because look at the mechanics.

You are rolling a caster level 5 Dispel Magic arrow. You must beat a DC of 11 + his caster level. If he is Caster level 15 you fail even on a 20. If he is caster level 5 (the earliest he can even cast a fly) then you fail more then half the time. Factor in the fact that he is likely to have a higher caster level then your party ECL and Wizards being dispelled is pretty rare.


2) See 1. A flying wizard is a clear target for the entire party to shoot at. Fly doesn't help indoors much either - especially if the monk has enough ranks in jump and climb.

Right, too bad he can deal with piddly ranged damage, especially when he has lots of ways to block it ranging from protection from arrows/windwall/stoneskin.


3) I don't follow your comment. If they target the monk with this spell then it's unlikely to work as you can get out of it with a reflex saving throw.

Um. You missed my point. There is no reason to cast the spell on a Monk because Monks are already useless. It's also one of the very few spells that are used with reflex saves, and actually, having evasion or improved evasion don't help at all. Because you see, Wizards have better things to do then try to damage someone, they can just kill them/paralyze them/stun grapple the whole party at once.


4) What rulebook are you looking at? A wizards fort saves bonuses by level are exactly the same as those of a rogue. Along with bards, they are all at the bottom end of the fort save bonuses.

A wizards base save is the same as a rogue. But that's not the entirety of the save. Wizards generally have a higher Con score then rogues (and Monks). They can also take levels in a PrC with a good fort save (that still progresses casting). They can also devote more money to boosting Fort because it takes much less money (almost none) to be better then every other class. They can also cast spells that boost their Fort.

Dode
2007-11-29, 05:17 PM
Among other earlier noted things, a light salting of polymorph cheese (courteously provided by the party Wizard) will put you on par or ahead of most of the rest of your party. Just be careful that your polymorph cheese doesn't make you MonkZilla.

I'm serious. Polymorph is powerful by itself and it synergizes better with the Monk than most other classes. Aristocrat is a valid PC class as long as you deck it out with Polymorph and Candle of Invocation. Why don't other people recognize it?

Kurald Galain
2007-11-29, 06:06 PM
Among other earlier noted things, a light salting of polymorph cheese (courteously provided by the party Wizard) will put you on par or ahead of most of the rest of your party.

Well, not really, because then you're only proving that Polymorph is good (we know it's brokenly so), not that monks are any good.

Besides, every single other class in the PHB benefits more from being polymorphed than the monk does (e.g. because of better attack bonuses, or sneak attack, et cetera). So if the wizard is going to poly anyone, monky is likely to be last on the list.

Frosty
2007-11-29, 07:36 PM
The Wizard would rather polymorph himself first.

FinalJustice
2007-11-29, 08:23 PM
If he's a sorcerer, he can polymorph both. But depending on another party member to do your job is rather lame. Depending on them to do their job should be depending enough.

Sir Giacomo
2007-11-30, 09:33 AM
Well, not really, because then you're only proving that Polymorph is good (we know it's brokenly so), not that monks are any good.

Besides, every single other class in the PHB benefits more from being polymorphed than the monk does (e.g. because of better attack bonuses, or sneak attack, et cetera). So if the wizard is going to poly anyone, monky is likely to be last on the list.

Slowly returning from the world outside...

On this monk detail, I'll offer another opinion (possiby already well-known by some...:smallbiggrin: )

Whether polymorph spell is broken or not- that would be for a different thread (it's very powerful, no doubt).

But of course a class specialising in unarmed combat makes most use of this spell as a combat buff.
1. Spellcasters? Have low BAB and low hps (the arcane ones, except for the bard) and are limited in part of their casting or the forms they choose (if they, say, turn into a giant spider, they can no longer cast spells with verbal, material or somatic components- i.e. only stilled/silent versions). Actually, a wizard or sorcerer using polymorph on him/herself for combat for those extra couple of natural armour points is rather stupid; for them the spell is more of a versatile fly/swim or stealth spell replacement, if they ever use it on themselves at all. It is meant to be a buff for (some) non-spellcasters.
2. Rogues? If they choose large creatures, their DEX and their hide skill suffers, making it less likely for them to use sneak. If they choose small creatures, their movement may suffer to get into sneak positions. The main use for them is to get a flying effect, which they can more simply access via the fly spell (item or friendly caster).
3. Rangers, Paladins and Fighters? Are mostly dependent on their usual magic weapons which do not resize. It IS possible to build a fighter geared for unarmed combat and make use of general combat feats. But do not forget that it is way better for them to do ranged or power attacking combat outside that minute/lvl effect.
4. Barbarians
Now these guys are getting a safe 2nd place behind the monk for using polymorph, because they have a movement enhancement plus rage which work fine in the new form. However, most of the time (since they have less feats than a fighter) they do not have their special axe or other weapon available in the new form.
5. Monks
Can use all (as in: ALL of them) their combat abilities in the morphed form. Faster movement, flurry, monk damage, stun, grapple, trip - it is all there. They even keep their monk AC bonus, while other characters would loose their armour.

- Giacomo

mostlyharmful
2007-11-30, 09:51 AM
Aristocrat is a valid PC class as long as you deck it out with Polymorph and Candle of Invocation. Why don't other people recognize it?

Freakin Commoner doesn't do too badly.

And unfortunately Giacomo, while the monks stuff does synergize with a new shape (ie they're an unarmed combat class using a spell that boosts str and gives size/AC mods)none of it synergyzes with itself. Plus why are Wiz turning into a giant spider? that doesn't seem to invalidate the spell but rather what shapes you shoose to turn your PCs into. Any spellcaster will be turning into something that combines verbal and somatic components with physical boosts, like the Treant that you were talking about turning into in the last "monks suck, no they don't" thread. Letting a Monk turn into a useful form and then making the other casters turn into a spider is somewhat disengenuous.

The other combat classes benefit more from this most broken of broken spells than a monk, carrying spare large sized weapons with a big str score isn't hard at all.

Sir Giacomo
2007-11-30, 10:07 AM
Of course you can carry around large-sized weapons. But it is not very practical. Apart from the obvious (large weapons are cumbersome), the classes with martial weapon proficiency will usually focus to have magical wepaons of the size they normally have.
As for general availability as backup weapon - In fact, the quarterstaff, a monk weapon, would be the weapon most easily found in large size in the wilderness. So, advantage monk here.

And of course a spellcaster can turn into a treant. Only...it does not avail him much. He is a spellcaster, after all. This he can do in both humanoid or treant form. So why then change? To have a higher STR bonus? To get some hit points back? What for? To be more visible to enemy archers?
If you desperately want more natural AC, try the longer-lasting alter self buff.
And the fact remains that some of the interesting forms you can turn into (cloaker, giant spider) would hamper spellcasting. Again, advantage monk.

- Giacomo

Morty
2007-11-30, 10:19 AM
And the fact remains that some of the interesting forms you can turn into (cloaker, giant spider) would hamper spellcasting.

Then don't turn into them. If they hamper spellcasting, they're not "interesting" for spellcasters in any way.
Of course, claiming that monk doesn't suck because he can use polymorph is utterly ridiculous anyway.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-30, 10:21 AM
Of course you can carry around large-sized weapons. But it is not very practical. Apart from the obvious (large weapons are cumbersome), the classes with martial weapon proficiency will usually focus to have magical wepaons of the size they normally have.
As for general availability as backup weapon - In fact, the quarterstaff, a monk weapon, would be the weapon most easily found in large size in the wilderness. So, advantage monk here.

And of course a spellcaster can turn into a treant. Only...it does not avail him much. He is a spellcaster, after all. This he can do in both humanoid or treant form. So why then change? To have a higher STR bonus? To get some hit points back? What for? To be more visible to enemy archers?
If you desperately want more natural AC, try the longer-lasting alter self buff.
And the fact remains that some of the interesting forms you can turn into (cloaker, giant spider) would hamper spellcasting. Again, advantage monk.

- Giacomo


A weapon using class has plenty of options of shrinking or bag of holding a large sized weapon. And if they dont and are forced to use a quaterstaff or large club (like say the greatclub that most giants end up using) then they still out perform monks as damage dealers. It doesn't matter that the quaterstaff is a monk weapon, a fighter is still better at using, gets more damage out of it and isn't as good as a Barbarian at either...

And yes there are better self buff spells for a wiz, so why isn't he using those and splatting all comers rather than wasting a slot on the monk, if he preps polymorph then he'll use it on the full base attack guys with their handy carried greatclub or whatever. If you want to use Flurry (the only reason to use Monk weapons) you can't move and you can't apply str and a half to the quaterstaff, even without enhancements any sensible wiz that didn't want to humour you would drop the spell on the barb.

FinalJustice
2007-11-30, 10:38 AM
Sizing magical proprierty anyone? ^^

KoDT69
2007-11-30, 11:27 AM
Give them Full BaB, allow them to choose WIS or DEX and use one of them in place of the other to reduce MAD, allow them to attack as if using a large weapon in two hands, and give them the Frenzied Berserker's Supreme Power Attack or whatever to get that STR x1.5 + PA x3 damage. After that allow them Use Magic Device as a class skill, add at least level/2 more spell resist, and increase the stunning fist DC by level/2. Then, maybe they won't be so sucky :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2007-11-30, 11:43 AM
I have a dwarf monk4/ftr2/pious templar9 of Zuokan. He doesn't do too shabby as far as damage output goes. There are a couple of nice paladin spells in Races of Stone. One of them sets your unarmed damage to 2d6. The other increases the size of your weapon by 1 catagory. They also add cold iron and adamantine properties with respect to overcoming DR. With improved natural attack, thats 4d6, 5d6 with flaming fists on. He'll have 19/20 BAB at level 20 and can 1-1 PA pretty decent with flurry. With melee weapon mastery bludgeoning and the bludgeoning feat from PHB2 (the one that gives you +1hit and damage per successful attack) he can flurry pretty effectively if he can get into melee, which is easy with Boots of Speed and 30 base move (20dwarf+10monk). Tack on Battle Blessing from CChamp and all paladin spells are swift actions, meaning he doesn't take any rounds to buff, he just buffs as he goes. Vs big threats, he can cast Holy Sword for an extra 2d6+5 damage per fist, even if he isn't GMWed from the party's wizard. The only pit fall is the characters abysmal AC of YES. YES as in, attack roll not a 1? YES.

He has craft wonderous item, so he made some cheap Pearls of Power to recover his low level paladin spells (2s and 3s), and crafted a +6 STR and WIZ items, along with a +2 CON Ioun Stone (20 CON with that and dwarf racial). The Gauntlets of War from MIC tack on an extra +3 damage, since unarmed strikes are favored by Zuokan.

He'll probably finish leveling up in fighter to grab more feats so that he can grab Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit. That way he can monopolize on his ~20 AC at level 20.

Not a super effective character to the tune of a leap attacking frenzied berzerker or a full caster, but he can definitely hold his own in combat. 5 attacks at around +30/+31/+32/+28/+24 for damage around 7d6+21ish each that count as magical, cold iron, adamantine, and good at the cost of 3 spells(all of which as swift) at level 15 isn't too shabby. And thats without PA.

Indon
2007-11-30, 04:17 PM
Besides, every single other class in the PHB benefits more from being polymorphed than the monk does (e.g. because of better attack bonuses, or sneak attack, et cetera). So if the wizard is going to poly anyone, monky is likely to be last on the list.

Not remotely.

+5 BAB isn't really comparable with higher damage dice, better saves, the ability to make a large full attack and then include natural attacks, DR penetration with natural weapons, better AC, better mobility, and so on... unless you want to limit most classes to Geared-Ape cheese.

Monks benefit more from polymorph than pretty much everyone but Druids, and obviously the Druids do it themselves.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-30, 04:26 PM
Not remotely.

Have you heard the one about the sneak attacking hydra?

Or that creature that gets an additional action to cast spells with?

That is synergy. Monk's got nothing.

You don't need better mobility if you have polymorph, because polymorph gives you better mobility. You don't need extra damage dice if you have a big honkin' sword, which incidentally also penetrates DR. And you don't need a monk if you've got the commoner, because they're both about equally effective with polymorph.

Indon
2007-11-30, 04:36 PM
Have you heard the one about the sneak attacking hydra?


How about anything with Pounce?



Or that creature that gets an additional action to cast spells with?


It's called the Roper.



That is synergy. Monk's got nothing.

Except for, you know:



higher damage dice, better saves, the ability to make a large full attack and then include natural attacks, DR penetration with natural weapons, better AC, better mobility, and so on...



You don't need better mobility if you have polymorph, because polymorph gives you better mobility.


And the monk gets even more of it! Huzzah!


You don't need extra damage dice if you have a big honkin' sword, which incidentally also penetrates DR.

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about polymorph synergy when you, you know, were talking about Polymorph.



And you don't need a monk if you've got the commoner, because they're both about equally effective with polymorph.

While Polymorph is certainly very potent (thus I warn against using it too effectively, because it's easy to overpower the monk with it), there's still the list that you've largely ignored.

Draz74
2007-11-30, 04:49 PM
It's called the Roper.

Choker, actually. And IIRC, its extra standard action is a [Su] ability, so you need Shapechange (not just Polymorph) to get it.

Indon
2007-11-30, 04:53 PM
Choker, actually. And IIRC, its extra standard action is a [Su] ability, so you need Shapechange (not just Polymorph) to get it.

Ah, yes, now I remember. The roper's something else.

prufock
2007-11-30, 05:06 PM
Sorry, but that's a ridiculous interpretation of Powerful Build's text. The subject of unarmed strike damage is totally out of line with the examples given, like grapple/trip/bull rush modifiers. Besides, the term "modifier" is defined a little more precisely than that:

I don't think the amount and kind of dice that are rolled for an unarmed attack qualifies. Powerful Build doesn't improve unarmed strike damage (although it would make sense as a houserule ... but Goliaths really don't need the help).

I may be a little late, but THANK YOU.

To clarify:
A) Bonus dice for unarmed damage is not a "modifier" in D&D - a modifier is a flat number that applies to your dice rolls.
B) Unarmed strikes are NOT opposed attack rolls.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-30, 06:54 PM
And the monk gets even more of it! Huzzah!
That's called overlap, and is not particularly useful.



Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about polymorph synergy when you, you know, were talking about Polymorph.
No, as clearly indicated by the thread title, we were talking about "making the monk not suck". Now obviously, as has been stated many times in the past, "monks are great with X" is not an argument for monks if everything is great with X. Monks are great with polymorph, yes, but that's because it's polymorph. Commoners are also great with polymorph, so in this aspect, monks are on the same power level as commoners.

So you haven't proven anything about monks yet, except that one needs to resort to utter cheese to make them not suck.

triforcel
2007-11-30, 08:23 PM
That's called overlap, and is not particularly useful.

Actually overlap would be casting expeditious retreat on a monk. The bonuses to mobility granted by polymorphing the monk would stack with his monk speed bonuses. It's also quite useful.

As for not making the monk suck. I personally believe they're a good class. Obviously many on this forum believe otherwise, but I'm content to let them have they're opinions. I say play what you want because you'll have fun with it. Probably the best DnD games I've played didn't have the most difficult encounters possible so that the players were able to play "suboptimal" builds that were more fun than "optimal" builds.

Armads
2007-11-30, 08:54 PM
+5 BAB isn't really comparable with higher damage dice, better saves, the ability to make a large full attack and then include natural attacks, DR penetration with natural weapons, better AC, better mobility, and so on... unless you want to limit most classes to Geared-Ape cheese.


That statement only holds true if the fighter class had no bonus feats. Unfortunately it has, so +5 BAB and 11 feats. It negates the 'better damage dice' with Weapon SPecialization and Greater Weapon Specialization. It negates DR penetration with a Sure Striking weapon. It actually can hit incorporeal stuff. It has better AC because it actually wears proper armor and doesn't have 2 stats to pump at once (polymorphing fighters only use Constitution). The monk has better mobility, but mobility doesn't synergize at all with full attacking.

Monks CAN be made competitive with other melee classes if your stats are good (or you use polymorph cheese), but they'll never get up to caster-level unless they use UMD (and thus become a fake caster).

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-11-30, 09:15 PM
worst possible cheese for a monk was during a homebrew campaign...the party wizard wanted to try something interesting...he and the monk asked if they could try something odd and have the monk be the familiar of the Wizard. I thought it was a crazy idea, but despite the rules I didn't see why it couldn't be done...except I told them it would be costly and very risky. They would each need to dedicate a feat to sychronizing their selves, and get blessed in a temple of a god of magic (figure some ritual, spend gold yadda yadda). I also said that as master/familiar since they were both humanoids, that if anything were to happen to one, the other would suffer greatly. If the monk died, the wizard would suffer as if they lost a familiar with a higher DC and double xp loss...they would also be reduced to 1d4 HP and stunned for 1d6 rounds. The loss of HP/XP went both ways, but I did mention to the monk that since they were the familiar if the wizard died, they would also die since I think that is how it was in 2nd or 1st ed and wanted to keep the flavor of 'forbidden magic'..mainly...there is a reason people don't do this sorta thing...I think to be 'nice' and not make it such a one way street for the monk I had the 'familiar' ability to the wizard be that they could benefit from the monk's saves if they were better.

It seemed a pretty steep cost, but they agreed. Took the time, paid the gold, spent the feat...they were joined. With both their lives on the line, you had never seen better teamwork. But some things I just didn't think about...the 'familiar' bonuses made the monk pretty tough, and being able to benefit from truestrike, buffs, and to deliver touch spells as part of monk strikes was just retarded good...and then came the 'motherload'...

as he was able ot cast 8th level spells, he hit me with their master plan during a very tough fight and just made me fall over laughing at the brilliance. Buffed, enlarge/polymorph, fire shield...then...tensor's transformation.

Any spell you can cast on yourself...you can cast on your familiar too...shoulda seen that one comming...that combined with the other spells was just scary...that was one monk that didn't suck though...not by a long shot.

Darkantra
2007-11-30, 10:09 PM
Ah, never a week goes by that someone takes a fresh look at the monk and realises their suckitude. Aside from massively prestige classing and taking feats from 5+ different books there's no real way to make them playable. Remember, the amount of work that you put into making a monk playable would make a fighter absolutely invincible.

But in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63039) I put forward a variant that I think fixes some core issues with the class.

Monks were never designed to be damage dealers, they were built to be a combat specialist. They'd be the character that disarms the enemy front-line fighter and then charges up to casters and grapples them into submission. The only problem is that they suffer from MAD, are outperformed by fighters consistantly at grappling, disarming and tripping past level 6-7 and have really low skill points for such a wide selection of skills.

So, opinions are welcome, tell me what you think.

Skills: (Reworked)
Monks have the same skill selection, but gain 6 points per level instead of 4.

Introspection (Ex): (Replaces AC Bonus)
Monks train not only their bodies to perfection, but also the minds control over the body. They may not be as lithe as a thief or as strong as a warrior but their superior level of control enables them to reach heights of skill unmatched by other classes

A monk applies their Wis bonus (if any) to their attack bonus and AC, and gains an additional +1 bonus to AC at 5th level and every five levels thereafter. The AC bonuses are applicable for touch attacks and even when the monk is caught flat-footed.

In addition the monk can apply their Wis bonus to the following combat maneuvers, Bull Rush, Grapple, Overrun and Trip instead of the regular Str or Dex modifiers and gain a +1 bonus to those maneuvers every four levels. A monk’s unarmed strike can be considered a light weapon, or a regular weapon.

This bonus does not apply if the monk is wearing any armor or shields or is carrying a medium or heavy load.

Wholeness of Body (Su): (Reworked)
At 7th level a monk can focus on their wounds and force broken bone and torn muscle back into place through sheer will. They can heal a number of points of damage equal to their monk level multiplied by their Wisdom bonus (minimum 1, therefore a 9th level Monk with 18 Wis would have 36 points of healing in their pool). In order to do this though they must take a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. If an opponent damages them with an attack of oportunity then the monk must succeed on a DC 10 + damage dealt concentration check or else fail their healing. A failed attempt does not use up points from their healing pool. They can only use this ability on themselves, and can spread the amount over several uses.

Panther's Strike (Ex): (New)
At 8th level monks can charge into melee with several opening strikes in a brief flurry. Whenever a monk takes the charge action, at the end when they would normally make a single attack against an opponent they can take a full attack instead.

This ability cannot be used in conjunction with the flurry of blows class ability, or if the monk wears medium or heavy armor, shields, or carries a medium or heavy load.

Extrospection (Ex): (New)
By 10th level the monk's awareness extends outwards from their body and they can detect even minute changes within this area. The monk gains Blindsense out to 30 ft. At 18th level the monk's awareness has reached perfection. A mental image of all that enter their Extrospection range forms in their mind, allowing them to strike at foes unseen or those who try to hide from their regular sight. The monk gains Blindsight out to 30 ft.

Abundant Step (Su): (Reworked)
At 12th level a monk can shunt their body through space by expending a portion of their mental focus into an extreme effort of will. This ability functions as if using the spell dimension door at a caster level equal to 1/2 their monk level but only once per meditation. By meditating for 10 minutes and succeeding on a DC 20 concentration check or by resting for 8 hours, the monk can regain their focus.

Quivering Palm (Su): (Reworked)
At 15th level a monk can implant a portion of his will into another creature's body. If the monk chooses to focus on that portion of their self then they can forcibly kill the creature through the supernatural connection between the two of them. Quivering Palm can be used once per day, and the monk must announce that they are using it before making the attack roll. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected by this technique.

Otherwise if a monk succesfully strikes and deals damage to a creature then the Quivering Palm is successful. The monk can then attempt to kill the creature within a number of days equal to their class level. The monks Quivering Palm can affect only one creature at any time. Once the monk wills the portion of their essence to kill the creature it must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC = 10 + 1/2 monk level + Wis modifier) or die. If the save is successful then nothing happens.



Oh, and monks shouldn't get Tongue of the Sun and Moon. Ever. It makes no sense.

Idea Man
2007-11-30, 11:26 PM
I was under the impression that one could not use natural weapons in a flurry of blows, normally. If so, why would you want to shapeshift into anything other than a humanoid or giant? Now, a giant/monk, that would rock!

As a monster, would monk be considered associated, or non-associated class levels for a giant? Well, I digress...

Darkantra, that looks like it was a lot of work, but I think it tastefully reworks some problem areas of monks without the "make 'em fighters" attitude. Might just steal those ideas, hope you don't mind...(*grabs notes, sneaks into the night*) :smallbiggrin:

As far as fighting a properly optimized wizard, why would you fight one without your wizard? You are there to assist him, especially since you probably aren't going to be the one pounding his face in. Engage his minions, harry his spellcasting if you can, heck, act as a body shield for somebody important, if you need to! :smallsigh: Sorry, no more wizard vs. monk from me. I'll be good. :smalltongue:

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-30, 11:38 PM
That never really did make sense to me.

Unarmed strikes are classified as natural attacks, and you can use quarterstaves and other monk weapons to Flurry. Why not claws or whatever?

Hagentai
2007-12-01, 05:44 AM
not without houseruling some stuff, frankly.

I made a class called the dirty monk where I let players swap Flurry of blows for sneak damage. It never got broken. Than again I like my undead as a dm.

Armads
2007-12-01, 11:31 AM
Wow, the Dark Moon Disciple (Champions of Valor Web Enhancement) is actually pretty good for stealthy monks. It gives them the shadow blend ability at the cost of Wholeness of Body, which basically gives them total concealment when not in direct daylight. Artificial illumination doesn't negate it, but the daylight spell does. So a monk with a parasol and staying away from daylight is permanently invisible, and indetectable except via Blindsight (or blindsense, tremorsense, blah), but there is Darkstalker for that.

icthius
2007-12-01, 12:48 PM
So I'm still not 100% sure why everyone here thinks monks suck. They've always been effective in and out of battle when I played them, but the concensus here is so universal I think I may have missed something.

Darkantra
2007-12-01, 12:58 PM
So I'm still not 100% sure why everyone here thinks monks suck. They've always been effective in and out of battle when I played them, but the concensus here is so universal I think I may have missed something.

The biggest problem about monks is that they really only have one dump stat, Charisma. With their 4 skill points per level they need at least a 10 in Intelligence in order to get the requisite skill ranks in tumble, jump, cimb and swim. Plus they can't have a low Strength, Dexterity or Constitution or they'll be shredded in combat. Horrible, crippling MAD all the way.

The biggest problem is that while monks can take Improved Disarm, Grapple and/or Trip they are outperformed at all of these maneuvers by mook fighters past level 8. Oh and as per the rules, a monks unarmed strike is treated as a light weapon, and therefore takes a -4 penalty when disarming. I love monks, I just take issue that past a certain point a monk optimized to be a combat specialist (which is what they were designed for) gets outperformed by any other melee character.

Oh, and Idea Man, feel free to use or adapt what I posted, I don't mind as long as you aren't making any money out of it :smallwink:.

A quick question, does anyone know if there actually was a reason for giving monks Tongue of the Sun and Moon, maybe historically? I keep harping on that but it's the most out of place class feature I've ever seen.

Theli
2007-12-01, 06:00 PM
A quick question, does anyone know if there actually was a reason for giving monks Tongue of the Sun and Moon, maybe historically? I keep harping on that but it's the most out of place class feature I've ever seen.

Supposedly, ADnD gave the monk the ability to talk to animals as if s/he were a druid.

This is really the source of all the odd things the Monk, and really any other class, may get... ADnD had a lot of crazy things in it.

Yrnes
2007-12-02, 03:35 AM
Right now I'm a

Ftr 1/ Mnk 4/ Sorc 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 2

My Armor Class can be 53!

Thats an additional 6 from Dex and 6 from Wisdom (running total: +12) which should be more than capable for any 14th level character, +1 thanks to my monks belt (rt:+13), A ring of protection +3 (rt:+16), the Luck of Heroes feat for another 1 (rt:+17), alter self into troglodyte for +6 natural armor (rt:+23), +9 from shield thanks to the abjurant armor class ability (rt:+32), stacked with +6 from greater mage armor (rt:+38) and finally a +5 sacred bonus thanks to my party's cleric (rt:+43)

So there you have it, a monk/caster combo with an AC of 53 (48 sans cleric) that can handle his weight in battle - of course, I haven't used unarmed attacks since level 9 and I don't do amazingly in an antimagic field, but I have fun with it

Frosty
2007-12-02, 04:02 AM
You'r also not a monk anymore. Now, as for monk fixes, what I think I'd do is this: Fighter BAB. 6 + int skillpoints per level; Stunning Fist have uses/encounter instead of uses/day. Extra uses for Stunning Fist including: May expend a use of Stunning Fist to gain Sneak Attack for a few rounds; May use more than one charges of stunning fist at a time to stun for longer or even paralyze opponents. Flurry as a standard action. Slow Fall is replaced by Fly for a number of minutes = to Monk levels. Dimension Door now usable 2/encounter. Outside of encouters the Dimension Door recharges at a rate of 1/minute.

Talic
2007-12-02, 05:41 AM
There's an optional rule when disarming to make 2 small weapons count as a medium. Useful for people with dual hands.

There's an interesting monk PrC in the Draconomicon.

But yeah, monks are WAY too heavy in the Attribute dependency to be as effective as a SAD class. It's been argued that a competent wizard can be played on as little as a 14 point build. While that's a bit spartan for my tastes, you could give a monk 28 points, and that 14 point wizard would likely kill him at 11th level. Maybe 9th.

Monks need a good dex and wisdom, to keep them alive in combat (AC). Monks need a good Con, for HP to keep them alive in combat.
Str isn't quite as important, as you can weapon finesse fists, but it's still a desired trait, since this is, at heart, a melee class.
Int fuels the monk skills, and is needed at least at a 0 modifier (-1 if you're a human).
Cha... well, if you want to use some of those diplo skills, you may want a point or two in this, otherwise, it's the dump.

Compare to Fighter:

Str is essential, for damage and hit chance.
Con is essential, for HP to survive fights.
Dex is good, but you can always slap on plate mail if you don't have it.
Int is ok, but you can get by with a -1.
Wis is ok, I like at least a +0 mod for the will save.
Cha is a dump stat, pure and simple.

A good beatstick fighter can be run with 1 good stat, 1 ok stat, and the rest crap (Str and Con).

Wizard

Str - Dump
Dex - Not so important, but make it positive
Con - Again, keep it positive. Wizards are unforgiving if they have 12 hp at level 5.
Int - Primary, put lots in this
Wis - dump
Cha dump

There's the reason monks aren't as good. They need too much to be viable.

dyslexicfaser
2007-12-02, 02:06 PM
Right now I'm a

Ftr 1/ Mnk 4/ Sorc 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 2

My Armor Class can be 53!

Thats an additional 6 from Dex and 6 from Wisdom (running total: +12) which should be more than capable for any 14th level character, +1 thanks to my monks belt (rt:+13), A ring of protection +3 (rt:+16), the Luck of Heroes feat for another 1 (rt:+17), alter self into troglodyte for +6 natural armor (rt:+23), +9 from shield thanks to the abjurant armor class ability (rt:+32), stacked with +6 from greater mage armor (rt:+38) and finally a +5 sacred bonus thanks to my party's cleric (rt:+43)

So there you have it, a monk/caster combo with an AC of 53 (48 sans cleric) that can handle his weight in battle - of course, I haven't used unarmed attacks since level 9 and I don't do amazingly in an antimagic field, but I have fun with it

And all it took was two multiclasses and two PrCs to make the monk a powerhouse.

holywhippet
2007-12-02, 04:26 PM
The biggest problem is that while monks can take Improved Disarm, Grapple and/or Trip they are outperformed at all of these maneuvers by mook fighters past level 8. Oh and as per the rules, a monks unarmed strike is treated as a light weapon, and therefore takes a -4 penalty when disarming. I love monks, I just take issue that past a certain point a monk optimized to be a combat specialist (which is what they were designed for) gets outperformed by any other melee character.

That's easily countered - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#sai

+4 to disarm rolls.

As for combat, a monk can attempt to win through attrition as a skirmisher in many cases. Give them a light crossbow and have them just keep moving and shooting from range. They have better movement speed than most classes so they can keep out of stabbing range and their feats help keep them safe from magic and return fire.

A monk is also intended for use outside of combat. They have stealth skills as class skills which let them infiltrate dangerous places. If they get spotted, they have the speed to run or enough skill to try and fight.

brian c
2007-12-02, 04:41 PM
That's easily countered - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#sai

+4 to disarm rolls.

As for combat, a monk can attempt to win through attrition as a skirmisher in many cases. Give them a light crossbow and have them just keep moving and shooting from range. They have better movement speed than most classes so they can keep out of stabbing range and their feats help keep them safe from magic and return fire.

A monk is also intended for use outside of combat. They have stealth skills as class skills which let them infiltrate dangerous places. If they get spotted, they have the speed to run or enough skill to try and fight.

That's what they're supposed to be. But in practice, they don't do any fighting as well as a fighter/ranger/barbarian/codzilla, and they don't do scouting as well as a rogue/druid. I love monks, but the sad truth is they're not that good.

mostlyharmful
2007-12-02, 05:08 PM
Skirmishing is good but not if you've got team mates who cant run around like a headless chicken, diplomacy and skill monkey stuff is good but it adds Int to the already cronic MAD. Since flurry is a standerd action you cant be a good hit and run fighter in melee, since your only real advantage is your charge range which gives you a one shot attack (better hope it lands even with your mediocre BAB and that they fluff their saving throwon the stunning fist or they'll own your ass).

Monk doesn't make a terrible one man party, with a little bit in too many pies to be able to cover most of the bases. They can run when they need to and can pull hit and run tactics all they like.

Enlong
2007-12-02, 09:10 PM
How about Monk whatever / Drunken Master 5?
Drink Like a Demon gives the monk some much-needed to-hit bonus by insanely boosting STR, though the loss of Wis hurts a bit in the AC department. Greater Improvised Weapons helps if you need to deal that little bit of extra damage, and Stagger is nice, as it removes one of the downsides of Charging. Without Improvised Weapons, this Monk's Unarmed Damage would be 2d6, but with Improvised Wapons, an extra 1d8. The important stats for this Monk would be DEX (for extra AC), STR (for damage and to-hit), and INT (because you can't willingly reduce yourself below 3 INT). The Monk should have a Monk Belt and other appropriate items to increase his effectiveness. Basically, the strategy is "Drink as much as possible, boost STR by as much as you can, and attack everything in sight". Spring Attack would be useful to have, 'cause of all the extra land speed the Monk Levels give you.
And that's all I could think of.

Zincorium
2007-12-02, 09:28 PM
And all it took was two multiclasses and two PrCs to make the monk a powerhouse.

Two multiclasses and to PRCs that have nothing whatsoever to do with being a monk. Monk helps your build as a dip, but you aren't focusing on being an unarmed combatant in general, you've got 2 more effective levels of sorceror than you do effective levels of monk.

Yrnes
2007-12-02, 09:53 PM
Still couldn't have done it without the monk!:smallbiggrin:

Lol... The post was more in jest than seriousness, but really, a lot of what the monk offers is nice as a dip/match for any class.

Snadgeros
2007-12-02, 09:56 PM
How about Monk whatever / Drunken Master 5?
Drink Like a Demon gives the monk some much-needed to-hit bonus by insanely boosting STR, though the loss of Wis hurts a bit in the AC department. Greater Improvised Weapons helps if you need to deal that little bit of extra damage, and Stagger is nice, as it removes one of the downsides of Charging. Without Improvised Weapons, this Monk's Unarmed Damage would be 2d6, but with Improvised Wapons, an extra 1d8. The important stats for this Monk would be DEX (for extra AC), STR (for damage and to-hit), and INT (because you can't willingly reduce yourself below 3 INT). The Monk should have a Monk Belt and other appropriate items to increase his effectiveness. Basically, the strategy is "Drink as much as possible, boost STR by as much as you can, and attack everything in sight". Spring Attack would be useful to have, 'cause of all the extra land speed the Monk Levels give you.
And that's all I could think of.

I said this on the first page. Check out my sig.
Yes, the wisdom hurts, but swaying waist makes up for it. An effective strategy is to get a reach weapon (ladder, pole, anything 10 feet long) and combine it with spring attack and a monk's high movement. Run in, pound on the enemy with the reach weapon from a safe distance, run back out, and use swaying waist in case he decides to charge you. Given the sheer speed of monks, you can do this from quite a distance too. Also note that INT isn't too important, so long as it's 9 or above. If you ever take more than 3 drinks within the short period of your drunkenness, you're relying on it too much. Most of the time 1 or 2 is sufficient. The drunken master class is perfectly made for monks and I highly recommend it to anyone seeking a fun PrC.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the other bonus of my spring attack strategy. If that guy is stupid enough to charge you, he's going to have to move through one of your threatened reach squares and provoke an AoO. Nice little bonus there, especially since once he takes the hit and attacks, you can just pound him again and then use your ridiculous AC (Thanks, mobility!) and ranks in tumble to retreat further than he can reach you.

Enlong
2007-12-02, 10:37 PM
Ah, cool. Are you using 10 levels of Drunken Master, or does the loss of Unarmed Strike damage increases hurt too much after a certain point? I think that 5th level Drunken Master is good 'cause you get Improved and Greater Improvised Weapons. But I wonder: what will get you a better damage output on average; 2d6+1d8 or 2d8+1d4? The max possible damage is the same, but I'm wondering which one will get better results more often. (that's the difference between a Level 15 Monk/level 5 Drunken Master and a Level 16 Monk/ level 4 Drunken Master.)

Also, does a Drunken Master incur the same -4 to hit penalty that everyone else does when using Improvised weapons? I can't remember.

Snadgeros
2007-12-02, 11:02 PM
Ah, cool. Are you using 10 levels of Drunken Master, or does the loss of Unarmed Strike damage increases hurt too much after a certain point? I think that 5th level Drunken Master is good 'cause you get Improved and Greater Improvised Weapons. But I wonder: what will get you a better damage output on average; 2d6+1d8 or 2d8+1d4? The max possible damage is the same, but I'm wondering which one will get better results more often. (that's the difference between a Level 15 Monk/level 5 Drunken Master and a Level 16 Monk/ level 4 Drunken Master.)

Also, does a Drunken Master incur the same -4 to hit penalty that everyone else does when using Improvised weapons? I can't remember.

Well, in my campaign, we're only making it to level 11 so I figured monk 6 was too good to pass up and went drunken master 5. The problem with drunken master beyond 5 is the only benefit worth getting after that is really "for medicinal purposes." Everything else is kinda useless. Improved feint?:smallconfused: No way am I wasting a level on something that requires a decent CHA score. Breath of flame is kind of cool, but that's a full 10 levels of monk missed.

Also, no, there are no penalties for a drunken master to use improvised weapons. That's the whole point of his character is that he's Jackie Chan, a master of prop fu. He also doesn't get penalties for offhand attacks thanks to his monk levels.:smallbiggrin:

As for the damage calculations....by my figuring they're exactly the same, except that 2d8+1d4 gives better damage if you don't happen to have an improvised weapon around. I give it to monk 16/drunken master 4 based on the fact that you'll do 4 extra damage when unarmed.

Armads
2007-12-03, 01:24 AM
Well, in my campaign, we're only making it to level 11 so I figured monk 6 was too good to pass up and went drunken master 5. The problem with drunken master beyond 5 is the only benefit worth getting after that is really "for medicinal purposes." Everything else is kinda useless. Improved feint?:smallconfused: No way am I wasting a level on something that requires a decent CHA score. Breath of flame is kind of cool, but that's a full 10 levels of monk missed.

Not really. Extra Drunken Master levels give you more strength from drinking. The 10 monk levels aren't really good, either. They can be made up for in many different ways.

triforcel
2007-12-03, 02:19 AM
You really shouldn't need so many drinks of alcohol though. Especially since you'd need more than a 20 in both intelligence and wisdom to keep from drinking yourself into a coma while taking full advantage of it.

Aquillion
2007-12-03, 03:56 AM
Wizard

Str - Dump
Dex - Not so important, but make it positive
Con - Again, keep it positive. Wizards are unforgiving if they have 12 hp at level 5.
Int - Primary, put lots in this
Wis - dump
Cha dump

There's the reason monks aren't as good. They need too much to be viable.Wizards can also stop time and kill you by pointing at you. I don't think the SAD is the only thing that makes them better than monks.