Echo knight- safe?

[Houster]

I'm dming a new party, and one of the players is considering echo knight.
It's not a minmaxer table.

Have you tried echo knight? Is it too op? Is it ok?

Report please 😁.

Thanks

[LudicSavant]

I'm dming a new party, and one of the players is considering echo knight.
It's not a minmaxer table.

Have you tried echo knight? Is it too op? Is it ok?

Report please 😁.

Thanks

It's somewhere in the rough ballpark of Battle Master tier. Not bad (like Purple Dragon Knight), not crazy (like Shepherd Druid or Chronurgist, from the same book).

You shouldn't have anything to worry about.

[Nounverber]

The echo helps with a lot of utility things and will probably be way more used than other fighter subclass features but doesn't break the game unless you think a fighter burning almost all his resources to get two more attacks than other fighters during an action surge nova is too much. It lets a fighter have fun with spatial awareness and some light exploration workarounds, but he's going to be pretty good at combat and have excellent manueverablity, with extra problem solving when it comes to any puzzles that involve locations

The echo has a lot of leeway dependent on the dm on what it does since its not a creature and it has very set in stone abilities, but lets just cover movement and creation real quick. When the echo is created, it has to appear in a space within 15 feet of the echo knight, and it can't be in an obstructed or occupied spot. That means you could for example summon it in a cage or behind a wall or even 15 feet directly above the knight. It takes up space where it is, but it isn't a creature and it doesn't move conventionally with the only rules being that it can move up to 30 feet in any direction you want on your turn and how if you end your turn more than 30 feet away from you it disappears. That means things like having it walk on the air 30 feet or have it go through solid walls or have it go somewhere you can't see can all be plausible. The reason that's important is because the echo knight can switch places with it at any time for the cost of 15 feet of movement and a bonus action on their turn, which is really useful for kiting or distracting people or doing silly things like jumping off a cliff or using speed boosts on the fighter to move very far away and then reappear near where he started. You can always put limitations on where or how the echo moves, but don't try to block teleporting rulings unless you mean stuff like you can't put your echo in solid ground and then teleport yourself into the ground

For its fighting capabilities, lets start with the stats on the echo: it has an AC of 14+prof, uses the fighter's saves, and has 1 hp. This means any save or half spell or ability used on it kills it instantly unless you round down to 0, so having those handy can help keep it from soaking up a lot of attacks from your monsters. The other thing is that it definitely doesn't look like a normal creature, so most semi intelligent things will know trying to kill it is a bad idea or learn it when the echo knight resummons it for the low cost of a bonus action.

For echo attacks, any Attack action attack (ranged, melee, what have you) can be directed through the echo as point of origin, but the fighter still needs line of sight to direct it correctly. That means having an echo set up far away, shoot at something, then run away while the fighter sits hidden is a valid tactic for drawing monsters away from a spot. Keep in mind, there's a con mod/day resource where after taking the Attack action the echo can do one extra melee attack from its position, which can be awkward if using ranged but if you're using melee its useful coup de grace damage. Moves that require hitting or using attacks still work through the echo, so for example you could still smite or stunning strike or battlemaster maneuver through the echo. Bonus action attacks aren't allowed through the echo, so you can't PAM or XBE through it, but the echo knight is probably busy using all bonus actions to finagle the echo in the first place.

Final thing to note is how reactions work through the echo: it counts as the fighter being in the same space for opportunity attacks, so you could for example throw something through the echo, have it move within range, then pull out a polearm to get bigger threat range. Sentinel also works through it, which can result in things getting reduced to 0 movement about 30 feet away from the fighter. It still uses the fighter's reaction to do an opportunity attack through the echo, so unless they have a way to get free opportunity attacks all it means is that they can probably get a lot more use out of opportunity attacks than anybody else, which doesn't matter that much unless you're really focused on intense combat optimization

[stoutstien]

It's fine. Settle about on par with RK and BM. It is oddly worded so be prepared to make quite a few fiat rulings or scour the net of you are looking for RAI.

[da newt]

Session zero is very important so you and the Player agree on what it can do and can't - other than that, I'd welcome an EK in any of my games. It's a fun subclass with some interesting abilities, but nothing that breaks the game. Feel free to set limits that you are comfortable with.

[RogueJK]

Final thing to note is how reactions work through the echo: it counts as the fighter being in the same space for opportunity attacks, so you could for example throw something through the echo, have it move within range, then pull out a polearm to get bigger threat range.

Weapon reach has no effect on the Echo's threatened area. Regardless of the weapon you're wielding, you can only make an OA through the Echo when someone moves from adjacent to the Echo to more than 5' away from it.

Per the ability text:
"When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space."

Compare to the text for a regular Opportunity Attack:
"You can make an opportunity Attack when a Hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach."

Thus the threat range of a normal OAs is pegged to your reach, but an OA through the Echo is strictly a 5' radius around the Echo.

So even if you're wielding a reach weapon like a Polearm, your Echo only triggers an OA against an immediately adjacent foes that's trying to move away. The polearm's reach is irrelevant for that ability.


Sentinel also works through it, which can result in things getting reduced to 0 movement about 30 feet away from the fighter.

Partly. You're correct that the initial "0 movement" bullet point of Sentinel works on an OA made from the Echo's space with the criteria quoted above. But the latter two bullet points of Sentinel only apply to you, not the Echo. They specify your reach and within 5 feet of you, respectively.

[loki_ragnarock]

Echo Knight is the fighter for people who think fighters aren't mobile enough. I like them. They spoke to a need.

If your glee as a DM is to make sure battlefields are arranged just so to ensure that your melee people can't move into attack position, then Echo Knights will complicate that particular glee.

But if that's not your glee as a DM - one easily enough sidestepped by any ranged character, anyway - it shouldn't be any more of a problem than most other fighter types.

[Spiritchaser]

Problems with the echo knight?

The big ones are misunderstandings about how the echo knight works, and discrepancies in expectations between the player and DM. This is not a good pick for new players or new DMs.

I’d also note that the echo knight seems to be considerably stronger where the DM uses a grid to control combat rather than just hand waving things. The echo knight has great mobility and control (see sentinel comments below) that really show up best on a grid.

Finally, it’s not just echo knight on its own that is strong, but more the interaction between echo knight and the sentinel feat (or a few other options but sentinel is easiest)

At a table that uses a grid for combat, an echo knight with sentinel is the strongest fighter I have seen (Important note, I’ve never seen a rune knight in play, I hear they’re seriously good)

I’d even go so far as to say an echo knight’s at will control and damage soaking can put it on par with some less potent casters, it’s a real powerhouse… but it’s not going to break anything. It’s strength is chiefly in single target control and mobility. It’s not that much better than anything else against swarms, and it’s not especially potent against most magic and so on.

If you say no, do so because you don’t want the frustration of dealing with alien rules interactions or a player who is just not on the same page about how things work. Don’t worry about broken power. It’s good, even great, but it’s not going to invalidate other players or trivialize every encounter

[Damon_Tor]

It's not well thought-out, and can absolutely be abused by clever players.

At 7th level, they can, at-will, summon a copy of themselves they can see and attack through from up to 1000 feet away. A fighter could find themselves a safe location to sit in and send out echoes of himself endlessly to clear out an enemy camp by attrition. The echo dies in 1 hit, that's true, but the fighter can just make another. And another. And another. Even if a given echo only gets off a single round's worth of attacks another shows up in a bit.

The solution at my table was this: Manifest Echo costs 1 Hit Dice to use, but the Echo also has HP equal to a roll of that hit die (usually 1d10)+your con mod. When the fighter dismisses the echo as a bonus action he recovers the hit die, but if the Echo is destroyed any other way the dice is lost. The extra HP on the echo is a buff in terms of the "normal" usage of the class, while providing a limit on the potential for risk-free adventuring.

[Spiritchaser]

It's not well thought-out, and can absolutely be abused by clever players.

At 7th level, they can, at-will, summon a copy of themselves they can see and attack through from up to 1000 feet away. A fighter could find themselves a safe location to sit in and send out echoes of himself endlessly to clear out an enemy camp by attrition. The echo dies in 1 hit, that's true, but the fighter can just make another. And another. And another. Even if a given echo only gets off a single round's worth of attacks another shows up in a bit.


I’m confused as to how you propose this could work.

By the book, at seventh level, you can transfer your consciousness into your echo. In this condition you can use your action to see through your echo’s eyes and hear through it’s ears, but attack?

It is never the echo that attacks, but the character, and the character’s consciousness has been transferred to the echo.

Even if you choose not to use your action to see and hear, how does your character make (deaf/blind) attacks from the echo’s space when your consciousness is not with your character (who must make the attacks) but with the echo (which cannot)?

Don’t get me wrong, echo avatar is a top tier scouting (edit: and at least by RAW, mobility!) ability, but it’s not a remote assassin.

[Damon_Tor]

I’m confused as to how you propose this could work.

By the book, at seventh level, you can transfer your consciousness into your echo. In this condition you can use your action to see through your echo’s eyes and hear through it’s ears, but attack?

It is never the echo that attacks, but the character, and the character’s consciousness has been transferred to the echo.

Even if you choose not to use your action to see and hear, how does your character make (deaf/blind) attacks from the echo’s space when your consciousness is not with your character (who must make the attacks) but with the echo (which cannot)?

Don’t get me wrong, echo avatar is a top tier scouting (edit: and at least by RAW, mobility!) ability, but it’s not a remote assassin.

The 7th level ability takes one action and lasts up to 10 minutes. There's no indication the fighter has to continue to use his actions to maintain the link

[Spiritchaser]

The 7th level ability takes one action and lasts up to 10 minutes. There's no indication the fighter has to continue to use his actions to maintain the link

You could interpret it that way (I wouldn’t, but… sure) if you do it changes nothing for this situation though, your echo does not attack, and your characters consciousness is not with your character. You would need your character to make an attack from your echo’s space. How do you propose this could work?

[Damon_Tor]

You could interpret it that way (I wouldn’t, but… sure) if you do it changes nothing for this situation though, your echo does not attack, and your characters consciousness is not with your character. You would need your character to make an attack from your echo’s space. How do you propose this could work?

You can freely attack from the echo's space from day 1. That's a core feature.

[Spiritchaser]

You can freely attack from the echo's space from day 1. That's a core feature.

Your character can.

Your character may make an attack from your echo’s space

But

In the echo avatar state Your consciousness is not with your character but with your echo

You can end your echo avatar state at any time such that you return your consciousness to your character, but… that literally ends the echo avatar state.

Barring extraordinary circumstances (this is D&D, I’m sure there’s a way) Your characters consciousness cannot be in two places at once.

[Damon_Tor]

Your character can.

Your character may make an attack from your echo’s space

But

In the echo avatar state Your consciousness is not with your character but with your echo

You can end your echo avatar state at any time such that you return your consciousness to your character, but… that literally ends the echo avatar state.

Barring extraordinary circumstances (this is D&D, I’m sure there’s a way) Your characters consciousness cannot be in two places at once.

There are plenty of effects spells and spell-like effects which do similar things, and in every one the things you can and cannot do are explicit. Astral Projection explicitly makes your body unconcious, for example. Echo Avatar just makes you blinded and deafened. If they intended for your body to be unconscious, as you seem to believe, they would have said so. Instead they said "blinded and deafened".

[Spiritchaser]

There are plenty of effects spells and spell-like effects which do similar things, and in every one the things you can and cannot do are explicit. Astral Projection explicitly makes your body unconcious, for example. Echo Avatar just makes you blinded and deafened. If they intended for your body to be unconscious, as you seem to believe, they would have said so. Instead they said "blinded and deafened".

I’m just reading the rules as written.

I’m interpreting “you can temporarily transfer your consciousness to your echo” to mean…

That you temporarily transfer your consciousness to your avatar.

What would you propose that means?

[Damon_Tor]

I’m just reading the rules as written.

I’m interpreting “you can temporarily transfer your consciousness to your echo” to mean…

That you temporarily transfer your consciousness to your avatar.

What would you propose that means?

And why do you think that disables your attack action?

[Spiritchaser]

And why do you think that disables your attack action?

Because your echo cannot take an attack action

Only your character can

And you have transferred your consciousness from your character to your echo

[Damon_Tor]

Because your echo cannot take an attack action

Only your character can

And you have transferred your consciousness from your character to your echo

"Conciousness Transfer" in not a defined game mechanic. Every effect which does something of this nature (Astral Projection, Magic Jar, Etc) go on to explicitly say what exactly the effects are to your own body. Again, if they had intended for your body to be unconscious, they would have said so. Instead they said "Blinded and deafened" which would have been unnecessary if they had meant for the effect to render you unconscious.

[Chaos Jackal]

As you've probably already gathered, the primary issue with Echo Knight is that nobody seems to agree on how exactly half of its abilities work. And that's after some things were clarified, mind you. The editing and language on that subclass are certainly below par.

So, if an Echo Knight is in play, make sure to address discrepancies and disagreements beforehand and decide on consistent execution of its features. Do that and it's a fun martial subclass on the upper echelon of fighter subclasses; probably not quite Rune Knight, Eldritch Knight or Battle Master, but close enough and in the same ballpark. If you're OK with something like that, you'll be OK with Echo Knight.

[Spiritchaser]

"Conciousness Transfer" in not a defined game mechanic. Every effect which does something of this nature (Astral Projection, Magic Jar, Etc) go on to explicitly say what exactly the effects are to your own body. Again, if they had intended for your body to be unconscious, they would have said so. Instead they said "Blinded and deafened" which would have been unnecessary if they had meant for the effect to render you unconscious.

When the rules say you transfer your consciousness from your character to your echo, what do you think that means?

Don’t get me wrong, more clarity is good, but relative to the more glaring clarity issues 5e has with multiple self consistent interpretations of the darkness spell, lack of any direction at all on moving a grappled creature without moving yourself, a lack of direction on stealth checks and a complete and total dereliction to provide any guidance at all on practically every creature with blindsight… grumble…


I feel like “you can transfer your consciousness to your echo” is pretty clear

[Damon_Tor]

When the rules say you transfer your consciousness from your character to your echo, what do you think that means?

I think that the first sentence in any given ability is often for flavor, with the rest of the ability explaining the exact mechanics. For example, "At 3rd level, you can heighten your echo's fury." is mechanically meaningless.

There are no general rules for transferring consciousness in D&D. And nobody can agree what consciousness transfer would be like in real life. Nobody can even agree what consciousness even IS in real life. The question of what happens when one's consciousness is moved from one thing to another is such a widely pondered existential problem that whole episodes of sci-fi anthology shows center around it. And the kicker here is that they bothered to tell you that you are blind and deaf: this would be entirely unnecessary if you are supposed to be unconscious.

[Spiritchaser]

I think that the first sentence in any given ability is often for flavor, with the rest of the ability explaining the exact mechanics. For example, "At 3rd level, you can heighten your echo's fury." is mechanically meaningless.

There are no general rules for transferring consciousness in D&D. And nobody can agree what consciousness transfer would be like in real life. Nobody can even agree what consciousness even IS in real life. The question of what happens when one's consciousness is moved from one thing to another is such a widely pondered existential problem that whole episodes of sci-fi anthology shows center around it. And the kicker here is that they bothered to tell you that you are blind and deaf: this would be entirely unnecessary if you are supposed to be unconscious.

Unless they needed a mechanic that would tie up your action every round

Edit, but that’s speculative. If we interpret the phrase in the normal English way, the rules just work.

[LudicSavant]

There are no general rules for transferring consciousness in D&D. And nobody can agree what consciousness transfer would be like in real life. Nobody can even agree what consciousness even IS in real life. The question of what happens when one's consciousness is moved from one thing to another is such a widely pondered existential problem that whole episodes of sci-fi anthology shows center around it. And the kicker here is that they bothered to tell you that you are blind and deaf: this would be entirely unnecessary if you are supposed to be unconscious.

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1654362576-20220604.png

[Damon_Tor]

Unless they needed a mechanic that would tie up your action every round

Which they could have done. They could have copy/pasted the similar ability from Find Familiar. But they didn't do that. What they wrote was that you could perform the ability as an action and then "sustain this effect for up to 10 minutes". If "sustain" was a defined game term in 5th edition that meant "use your action every round" then, yes, you would be correct. But it isn't. The word "sustain" has no implications about what actions, if any, must be taken. Is it like concentration? Concentration doesn't require any actions be taken. Why would we assume that "sustaining" does?

Frankly the subclass looks like it was written for another system with a different set of general rules. Or by someone who has their own houserules and references those rules in the subclass. Maybe if I watched Critical Role I would know that "sustain" has some specific meaning at Mercer's table. Maybe this is made clear in season 3, episode 14. But I have no idea. What I have is this book. And it says nothing of the sort.

[Spiritchaser]

Which they could have done. They could have copy/pasted the similar ability from Find Familiar. But they didn't do that. What they wrote was that you could perform the ability as an action and then "sustain this effect for up to 10 minutes". If "sustain" was a defined game term in 5th edition that meant "use your action every round" then, yes, you would be correct. But it isn't. The word "sustain" has no implications about what actions, if any, must be taken. Is it like concentration? Concentration doesn't require any actions be taken. Why would we assume that "sustaining" does?

Frankly the subclass looks like it was written for another system with a different set of general rules. Or by someone who has their own houserules and references those rules in the subclass. Maybe if I watched Critical Role I would know that "sustain" has some specific meaning at Mercer's table. Maybe this is made clear in season 3, episode 14. But I have no idea. What I have is this book. And it says nothing of the sort.

If in doubt revert to an ordinary language interpretation of the phrase.

I submit that would work just fine here. You get a workable rule that doesn’t produce shinanigans.

Again, I’m not suggesting that the wording couldn’t be better, but I do feel that in the context of some of the bigger 5e rules issues, echo knight rules are not especially unclear.

[Damon_Tor]

If in doubt revert to an ordinary language interpretation of the phrase.

There is no "ordinary language interpretation" of whether or not you need to "take an action" to sustain something. "Taking an action" is itself an abstraction.


I submit that would work just fine here. You get a workable rule that doesn’t produce shinanigans.

Oh there are plenty of houserules to fix this, I won't argue otherwise. But it's silly to argue that any given houserule is RAW if you just squint, turn your head 90 degrees and reference the definitions of certain terms used in past editions (which is where, I suspect, we would have to go to read "sustain" the way you do.)


Again, I’m not suggesting that the wording couldn’t be better, but I do feel that in the context of some of the bigger 5e rules issues, echo knight rules are not especially unclear.

I would challenge you to find a subclass that is less clear.

[Damon_Tor]

So I just did some research, and apparently you're not supposed to even be able to use the "swap places" teleport ability while using the 7th level feature. According to Crawford some of the text of this ability is "mysteriously missing from the book".

What do we even do with that? The tweet was from two years ago now. Has there actually been errata or what? Because I can't find it.

[Spiritchaser]

There is no "ordinary language interpretation" of whether or not you need to "take an action" to sustain something. "Taking an action" is itself an abstraction.



Oh there are plenty of houserules to fix this, I won't argue otherwise. But it's silly to argue that any given houserule is RAW if you just squint, turn your head 90 degrees and reference the definitions of certain terms used in past editions (which is where, I suspect, we would have to go to read "sustain" the way you do.)



I would challenge you to find a subclass that is less clear.

With regards to ordinary language interpretation, I’d ask that you consider the words transfer your consciousness to your echo.

If we do that, everything else will not be a problem here, sustain, and action won’t contribute to the issue you initially identified, that being the use of echo avatar as a remote assassin

No house rules, just the rules as written and an ordinary language interpretation of one phrase

With regards to worse subclasses? I’d agree that in the text of the subclass rules, echo knight is the worst I’m aware of, but in the text of the rules used to play the subclass?

I’m going to ignore high level spells because I’ve never played above 16… but

Any subclass that uses stealth a lot will be less clear, as stealth is less well defined than the echo knight.

Any character that frequently casts the darkness spell is in trouble. There is no “ordinary language interpretation” or “common sense” argument that can tell you which way the darkness spell works. As far as I can tell, the text is perfectly consistent two ways, ink blot or shadowy region.

Make a grapple build that specializes in moving your opponent where you want them? Can you do that without moving in lockstep with them? Not by the rules as written.

Fortunately there’s not a lot of blind sight out there for characters to access, but how your bat familiars echolocation works isn’t something we’re told. Still, at least we’re told that it is echolocation instead of not being told what it is… we really need that explained.

Anyway I guess an arcane trickster grapple rogue mc’d with a rune knight for more grapple power would probably present the most rules issues in the range I actually play in.

[Spiritchaser]

So I just did some research, and apparently you're not supposed to even be able to use the "swap places" teleport ability while using the 7th level feature. According to Crawford some of the text of this ability is "mysteriously missing from the book".

What do we even do with that? The tweet was from two years ago now. Has there actually been errata or what? Because I can't find it.

So, I’ve DM’d with this both ways, the “you can’t swap places”per tweet, and “you can swap places by raw” in my opinion the raw is better.

You have a martial with strong out of combat utility that casters have trouble matching, and it’s at will, so it’s really a strong special perk?

Good

Make more martial features like this

Edit: though, in deference to this and other threads like this… maybe spend a bit longer on the word smithing.

Edit again: I do feel that the feature might be more at home on a rogue. At some point I’d like to actually run the echo knight subclass on a rogue to see what happened (ditch shadow martyr or reclaim potential so the subclass features match up)

[Damon_Tor]

So, I’ve DM’d with this both ways, the “you can’t swap places”per tweet, and “you can swap places by raw” in my opinion the raw is better.

But by your own logic, the swap is a bonus action that you can take, it's not a bonus action your echo can take.

We can go round and round here, but I think at this point the fact that we're having this discussion answers the OPs question about how "safe" this subclass is for a new DM. By the admission of WOTC staff the class is not printed as intended (and AFAICT they never bothered to print errata for it) so no matter what you do you're going to have be confident making rulings one way or another on how things work. You and your players may disagree on how the class should function.

[Spiritchaser]

But by your own logic, the swap is a bonus action that you can take, it's not a bonus action your echo can take.

We can go round and round here, but I think at this point the fact that we're having this discussion answers the OPs question about how "safe" this subclass is for a new DM. By the admission of WOTC staff the class is not printed as intended (and AFAICT they never bothered to print errata for it) so no matter what you do you're going to have be confident making rulings one way or another on how things work. You and your players may disagree on how the class should function.

The rules specifically state that you and your echo can swap places regardless of the distance between you.

Attacking? That specifically states that that you make an attack from your space, or your echo’s space.

Not the same, though could be better worded.

I will wholeheartedly agree that the danger with echo knight is exactly as you say.

The DM will probably face discussions exactly like this. Hopefully at session zero, but all too possibly in the middle of a fight.

But as for errata? I’d really prefer if WotC would address stealth and blindsight first. The echo knight features come up and get nailed down once

Stealth and vision come up in multiple contexts where a previous ruling won’t apply and far more flexibility is required

[meandean]

Crawford's tweet (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1242199682534608896?s=20), which let's just get it up here for posterity's sake...

https://i.imgur.com/qCOSJdr.png

... is referring to the Echo Avatar ability. No one is claiming that you can't swap places with a bonus action in the normal context of the Manifest Echo ability. (And after you do so, "you" are where the echo used to be, and next turn -- assuming the echo is still around -- you can do it again.)

[Damon_Tor]

No one is claiming that you can't swap places with a bonus action in the normal context of the Manifest Echo ability.

I never intended to imply otherwise.

[OvisCaedo]

...So, DID Echo Knight ever get errata, if Crawford said two years ago that an ability was outright missing text? Not really the only unclear ability it had, either... I've seen a lot of argument over whether or not the Echo can float/fly for example, as I'm sure came up in this thread already.

[Spiritchaser]

...So, DID Echo Knight ever get errata, if Crawford said two years ago that an ability was outright missing text?

Not in so far as I am aware.

Edit: I do need to confess that I do not feel overwhelmed with a drive to follow those tweets

Edit again: wrt “Fly” I don’t see why the echo can’t move in any direction. The description says any direction, and any direction includes… up

[Damon_Tor]

...So, DID Echo Knight ever get errata, if Crawford said two years ago that an ability was outright missing text? Not really the only unclear ability it had, either... I've seen a lot of argument over whether or not the Echo can float/fly for example, as I'm sure came up in this thread already.

Like I said, if errata exists for it, I can't find it anywhere. As written, yes, the echo isn't a creature or even an object, it's an "image" a spell effect, and there's no reason why it can't be moved vertically. I for one question whether that was intended: they're supposed to be versions of you from another timeline, so... what, in that timeline is there a ladder there or something?

I suspect WoTC isn't legally allowed to issue errata for this product. It really is a third-party supplement with licensed D&D branding, like a few other similar publications.

[Ortho]

...So, DID Echo Knight ever get errata, if Crawford said two years ago that an ability was outright missing text? Not really the only unclear ability it had, either... I've seen a lot of argument over whether or not the Echo can float/fly for example, as I'm sure came up in this thread already.

We've had what, two erratas go out since that tweet? And Echo Knight hasn't been touched at all? At this point, I think it's safe to conclude that WotC might've changed their minds on that.

Note that teleporting 1000 ft isn't a game breaker, because:
it's at-will in the same way that rituals are at-will; it'll take 34 rounds (read: 3 minutes 24 seconds) for your echo to get there
you're functionally incapacitated for that time
the echo is fragile and if it dies you have to completely start over.

[Damon_Tor]

Note that teleporting 1000 ft isn't a game breaker, because you're 1) functionally incapacitated for the 34 rounds (read: 3 minutes 24 seconds) it'll take to get your echo there, and 2) the echo is fragile and if it dies you have to completely start over.

Yeah it's far from the worst implication of the class as written.

[Spiritchaser]

Yeah it's far from the worst implication of the class as written.

Let’s also note that it’s a cool, fun power

[Bobthewizard]

It's not well thought-out, and can absolutely be abused by clever players.

At 7th level, they can, at-will, summon a copy of themselves they can see and attack through from up to 1000 feet away. A fighter could find themselves a safe location to sit in and send out echoes of himself endlessly to clear out an enemy camp by attrition. The echo dies in 1 hit, that's true, but the fighter can just make another. And another. And another. Even if a given echo only gets off a single round's worth of attacks another shows up in a bit.

The solution at my table was this: Manifest Echo costs 1 Hit Dice to use, but the Echo also has HP equal to a roll of that hit die (usually 1d10)+your con mod. When the fighter dismisses the echo as a bonus action he recovers the hit die, but if the Echo is destroyed any other way the dice is lost. The extra HP on the echo is a buff in terms of the "normal" usage of the class, while providing a limit on the potential for risk-free adventuring.

I think your table's solution ruins the class. The at-will manifest echo and teleport is the fun part of the class. It's far easier to just use the RAI on Echo Avatar and not allow attacking or swapping through that. Once you do that, the class isn't broken at all. As a DM, I found an echo knight with sentinel made single enemies challenging to run, even with legendary actions and saves. But as long as I added in multiple threats in each encounter, it was fine.

[Damon_Tor]

I think your table's solution ruins the class. The at-will manifest echo and teleport is the fun part of the class. It's far easier to just use the RAI on Echo Avatar and not allow attacking or swapping through that. Once you do that, the class isn't broken at all. As a DM, I found an echo knight with sentinel made single enemies challenging to run, even with legendary actions and saves. But as long as I added in multiple threats in each encounter, it was fine.

If I run a table with an echo knight again I'll give them the option.

[Spiritchaser]

If I run a table with an echo knight again I'll give them the option.

Out of curiosity, do you run your combat on a grid?

[Damon_Tor]

Out of curiosity, do you run your combat on a grid?

Most of the time. I'll skip it if I expect it to be quick, or versus relatively mindless monsters who are just going to reliably melee the front line and tactics won't likely come into play.