Druid/Barbarian info

[elyktsorb]

Anyone know of any good guides to looking at Druid/Barbarian? I personally wanted to do something along the lines of Spore/Beast for a character and was curious if anyone had any good insight/material to look at.

[holywhippet]

I'd recommend against multiclassing barbarian with any primary casting class personally. Barbarians are built around the rage feature and you can't cast or concentrate on spells while raging.

[Zhorn]

I'd recommend against multiclassing barbarian with any primary casting class personally. Barbarians are built around the rage feature and you can't cast or concentrate on spells while raging.

For what it's worth, I think Totem Bear Barbarian + Moon Druid isn't a bad combo. It's pretty popular when discussing multiclassing for either druid or barbarian.
Rage + Wild Shape is actually good synergy, giving the barbarian access to lots of bonus HP with the transformations, and the druid forms getting extra tankiness from the damage reductions.
In wildshape you also don't cast spells till endgame levels, so it's at most swapping out concentration for rage.
Also burning spell slots through Combat Wild Shape isn't the same as casting a spell (like the case is with barbarian/paladin smiting), so you can still self heal as a bonus action.

For OP though; holywhippet still raises a good point to consider in the delayed progression. Be that in either spells (primarily for out-of-combat), or martial progression (later access to extra attack).
The later is a lesser concern thanks to some beast forms offering multiattack, though extra attack will allow you to choose the stronger options multiple times.

Most builds I've seen tend to go druid 2 then barbarian 1 to start with.
Druid x / Barbarian 1 is for if you want to minimize the spell slot delay
Druid 2 / Barbarian 3 is your minimum for unlocking the best tank synergy

On the original request of Spore/Beast though, I'm unsure of that, sorry.
Outside of spore druid being functional in melee range, I'm not sure how well they'd synergize with barbarian

[meandean]

I wish I could come up with a good idea for this, because there theoretically is something to it. Spores would give you animate dead, which is non-concentration. And since you're not turning into an animal, stuff like Extra Attack and the Great Weapon Master feat would work more naturally.

The thing is that Symbiotic Entity a) is based on not taking damage, and b) scales with your Druid level. Let's say you do go for Extra Attack, which is something you want to rush for if you're getting it at all, so now you're Barb 5/Druid 2. That's a "tanking" character that will lose Symbiotic Entity once it takes 8 points of damage... at 7th level. Even granting that the 8 will often effectively be 16 due to Rage resistance, it feels like there isn't much point to that. (Plus you of course wouldn't even get animate dead until minimum 10th level.)

Unfortunately, I can see just taking Barb 1 a lot easier than I can see continuing to progress in Barb.

[Psyren]

Druid/Barb can work better than other {caster}/Barb combinations because druids tend to get at least two strong features (usually wild shape + whatever their subclass replaces wild shape with) that are neither spells nor require concentration, so you can use them in conjunction with rage.

However, having said that - Spores has an unfortunately big downside in that its first primary feature (Halo) is weak on its own, and the second one (Symbiotic Entity), which could in theory make this combination worthwhile, needs a lot of levels in druid to keep it from simply ending early as soon as a CR-appropriate enemy breathes on you. This encourages you to weight your build more heavily towards druid, but then instead of a barbarian with an interesting technique you'll probably end up feeling like a caster that can get mad a couple of times per day and turn off their casting. In short, there's not a ton of synergy here as written.

But this is easily fixed if your DM doesn't mind a small tweak. Simply have the temp HP from Symbiotic Entity scale with your character level instead of your druid level and you can be a Druid 2/Barbarian X with a cool theme.

[Omni-Centrist]

My recommendation would be to go no more than 6 into Barbarian for magic damage with your natural weapons, take the rest in Spores Druid. Start as Elf, see of your DM will let you use the double bladed scimitar. Put 15 into STR, and add the +2 for a starting STR of 17. 14 Dex, 14 Con, 12 WIS you can put the +1 in to get 13. At Level 4 Barbarian, take Revenant Blade feat to boost your AC and STR/DEX by 1. After Barb 5, start your Druid Levels. Get to Druid 4, then take one more level in barbarian for magic attacks, then finish up Druid.

[elyktsorb]

I'd recommend against multiclassing barbarian with any primary casting class personally. Barbarians are built around the rage feature and you can't cast or concentrate on spells while raging.

k but I'm gunna do it anyway



However, having said that - Spores has an unfortunately big downside in that its first primary feature (Halo) is weak on its own, and the second one (Symbiotic Entity), which could in theory make this combination worthwhile, needs a lot of levels in druid to keep it from simply ending early as soon as a CR-appropriate enemy breathes on you. This encourages you to weight your build more heavily towards druid, but then instead of a barbarian with an interesting technique you'll probably end up feeling like a caster that can get mad a couple of times per day and turn off their casting. In short, there's not a ton of synergy here as written.


I've made Spore work with Monks before, so making it work with a barb should be somewhat easier in theory, Beast probably isn't the best subclass to go with spore, but it certainly is quite thematic. (Totem is probably the best option, since it effectively doubles your druid level for your spore temp hp to all damage except psychic)

[strangebloke]

Anyone know of any good guides to looking at Druid/Barbarian? I personally wanted to do something along the lines of Spore/Beast for a character and was curious if anyone had any good insight/material to look at.

RPGbot is pretty comprehensive in this regard.

I also made this thread a while back, which covers a lot of the pros and cons:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646489-Lets-Optimize-A-Wildshaping-Barbarian

It's hard to argue against moon druid here, it just really plays nicely with barbarian compared to other druid subclasses. Wildfire druid maybe has a place here with the short range teleports, but overall.... eh.

[KorvinStarmast]

For what it's worth, I think Totem Bear Barbarian + Moon Druid isn't a bad combo. I've seen that work well in a Tier 3 game.
That player was Bar 10 Dru(Moon) 4 because he wanted to lean really hard into Barbarian, but think he'd have been just as well off with a bit more Dru. Mind you, he was using Great Weapons Master as a feat with a great axe, so getting the 9th level Crit feature was for him a major deal

[Psyren]

k but I'm gunna do it anyway



I've made Spore work with Monks before, so making it work with a barb should be somewhat easier in theory, Beast probably isn't the best subclass to go with spore, but it certainly is quite thematic. (Totem is probably the best option, since it effectively doubles your druid level for your spore temp hp to all damage except psychic)

I definitely adore the theme, which is why I'm recommending you work with your DM to buff Spore's temp HP scaling so this combination can work on a melee barbarian.

Alternatively you can try a different multiclass that can make its own necrotic weapon, though I'm drawing a blank at present (I don't think unarmed strike would work with symbiotic entity but I could be wrong.)

[meandean]

Symbiotic Entity says "melee weapon attacks", so it can be unarmed strikes. In between this and the fact that it applies to every attack, and Monks get a lot of attacks (with bad base damage) early... Monk/Spores is a combination that tends to come up whenever Spores is discussed, which is rarely.

The thing about Monks, though, is that you're not supposed to be standing there and getting hit. Barbarians are. The anti-synergy is the fact that your role in one class (soaking damage) works against your main ability in the other (which ends if you take damage). Of course, that's kind of true of many gishes -- they can cast concentration spells, which can end if you take damage -- but you can protect your Concentration save a lot easier than you can protect yourself from taking a small amount of damage in the first place, and anyway gishes aren't Barbarians. This concept might work better for some sort of hit-and-run Ancestral Guardian. A Beast Barbarian, presumably, is gonna get up in there.

You can obviously give it a go, though. It's 5E; it'll be fine.

[Psyren]

Symbiotic Entity says "melee weapon attacks", so it can be unarmed strikes.

Am I missing something? Per PHB 195, unarmed strikes don't count as weapons; they are melee attacks, but not melee weapon attacks, unless I'm mistaken. Sage Advice appears to back up this reading too.

(Beast's claws/bite/tail, by contrast, are specifically weapons.)

[RogueJK]

Counterintuitive interesting combo: Ancestral Guardian Barbarian 5 or 6/Stars Druid X.

Ignore the Rage damage bonus and Reckless Attack. Boost DEX and use a Longbow.

Ancestral Protectors just requires hitting an enemy with an attack. Therefore, it works with ranged weapon attacks, as well as the Archer Starry Form BA attack. Ancestral Protectors lends itself to a ranged/kiting playstyle anyway, because if a melee/ranged attacker can't reach you then their only option is to attack one of your allies with Disadvantage + Damage Resistance. Your higher Barbarian speed, potentially combined with a race with Flight and a spell like Longstrider, further meshes well with that.

And you have full Druid spellcasting for combats where you don't plan to Rage (or haven't Raged yet), as well as for out of combat ritual/utility/healing spells. Plus Druid has some non-Concentration pre-buff spells that can combo with Rage, like Longstrider, Freedom of Movement, Heroes' Feast, and Fire Shield.


Something like this:
Owlin Ancestral Guardian Barbarian 6/Stars Druid X
STR 13
DEX 15+1
CON 13+1
INT 9
WIS 14+1
CHA 8
ASIs: +2 DEX, Resilient WIS, Sharpshooter, +2 DEX or WIS
You have 2-3 ranged attacks per turn (2x Longbow + BA Archer), plus a 40' fly speed, which is boosted to a 50' fly speed through frequent use of Longstrider

[meandean]

Am I missing something? Per PHB 195, unarmed strikes don't count as weapons; they are melee attacks, but not melee weapon attacks, unless I'm mistaken. Sage Advice appears to back up this reading too.

(Beast's claws/bite/tail, by contrast, are specifically weapons.)No, the Compendium states "an unarmed strike counts as a melee weapon attack" (p. 13 (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf)).

[Psyren]

No, the Compendium states "an unarmed strike counts as a melee weapon attack" (p. 13 (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf)).

Got it, I did miss that, thanks.

My brain hurts but that's good news for Sporemonks!

EDIT: I had another thought. You lose SE form if you lose all "these" temporary hit points. But what if you never got them in the first place? Say, you already had another source of temp HP and chose to keep those instead of gaining the ones from SE? That should allow you to keep SE up for the entire duration, because you have no SE THP to lose. Say for example you picked Beasthide Shifter as your race, and had a much meatier 1d6+(2*PB) temporary hit points, you could skip the 4 THP from Symbiotic Entity completely. That would allow the OP's combo to work. Or they could just use the Longtooth's bite for an extra necrotic attack and stick with (2*PB) THP.

[elyktsorb]

EDIT: I had another thought. You lose SE form if you lose all "these" temporary hit points. But what if you never got them in the first place? Say, you already had another source of temp HP and chose to keep those instead of gaining the ones from SE? That should allow you to keep SE up for the entire duration, because you have no SE THP to lose. Say for example you picked Beasthide Shifter as your race, and had a much meatier 1d6+(2*PB) temporary hit points, you could skip the 4 THP from Symbiotic Entity completely. That would allow the OP's combo to work. Or they could just use the Longtooth's bite for an extra necrotic attack and stick with (2*PB) THP.

Despite how cheesy that is and how much I've love to do it, whenever you gain Temp HP you choose which ones to keep. So if I had temp hp, then used Symbiotic Entity and chose not to gain the temp hp for Symbiotic Entity, it's arguable that I've already lost them by refusing to take them, because they certainly did exist, but you make the choice to not take them. Though it is possible to argue for the cheese.

For example it says "If you have temporary hit points and receive more of them, you decide whether to keep the ones you have or to gain the new ones"

So even if you receive new temp hp, you don't gain them until you decide to gain them. Your point of never losing them if you never had them seems somewhat plausible. I have to imagine this is such a niche point due to the fact that I don't imagine any other temp hp gaining thing has an ability riding on it that would benefit from you not taking the new temp hp over the old temp hp.

The other thing going for this being possible is the ability not stating that if you refuse to take the temp hp, the ability doesn't work. In fact the addition of a 10 minute limit, and a mention that it stops if you wild shape again somewhat support it as well, since even disregarding the temp hp, you still have a strict limit on how long the ability lasts.

[meandean]

I think it's obviously the spirit of the ability that it's based on "these" THP, and therefore if you turn down "these" THP, you have 0 of "these" HP and the ability doesn't do anything.

You can run it by your DM, of course. (But, if you're asking the DM to bend the rules anyway, why not ask them to bend the rule that it scales by Druid level, as you suggested? I think it'd be a strange DM -- and, honestly, probably a bad one -- who prefers "here's a tortured interpretation of the RAW that technically allows me to do this thing if I take a convoluted route; now can I do it?" to "can we just make it so I can do this thing?")

[Psyren]

I think it's obviously the spirit of the ability that it's based on "these" THP, and therefore if you turn down "these" THP, you have 0 of "these" HP and the ability doesn't do anything.

You can run it by your DM, of course. (But, if you're asking the DM to bend the rules anyway, why not ask them to bend the rule that it scales by Druid level, as you suggested? I think it'd be a strange DM -- and, honestly, probably a bad one -- who prefers "here's a tortured interpretation of the RAW that technically allows me to do this thing if I take a convoluted route; now can I do it?" to "can we just make it so I can do this thing?")

I don't think it would rely on a "strange or bad DM" to allow the RAW reading. After all, 4 THP per character level is much, much stronger than twice your proficiency bonus in THP, and it locks in your race choice to boot, so you're already making a sacrifice that you wouldn't be if they houseruled instead.

[elyktsorb]

Back to the whole idea though. Technically, if I multiclassed evenly I shouldn't actually lose temp hp progression right?

For the best outcome, let's say I'm lvl 6, even split, 3 spore druid/3 totem barbarian, and I took bear.

So for every damage type except psychic, I resist all damage.

With rage up, my 12 temp hp is effectively 24.

If I were a level 6 Spore Druid, my temp hp would just be 24.

I mean sure, if I was just 1 Barbarian 5 Druid, that would be an effective 40 temp hp. Which would put me ahead of a regular spore druid by 16 hp at that level, of course just for piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage.

Ultimately the end goal split would be either 6/14 which nets you Fungal Body on Spore Druid which is good, and you'd have an effective 112 temp hp at that level per wild shape (with bear totem in mind) which would also be more temp hp than a Spore Druid could actually put on themselves, given they max out at 80 temp hp. Though they also get unlimited uses, so that's not a super effective comparison, but I think it's worth noting.

The other split would be 8/12 which nets you an additional ASI on barbarian, loses you fungal body, oh and I guess advantage on initiative from barb as well. This also gives you an effective 96 temp hp per wildshape.

The main reason I want beast, aside from the thematic of it (though totem is thematic as well) is the claws, which give you two attacks, which will then have the spore's damage rider on them, giving you 2d6 slashing + 2d6 necrotic per turn. Which, at level 5 barb will be 3d6 slashing + 3d6 necrotic.

I'm not super up to date on my GWM damage stuff, but I also don't tend to use that feat much.

I suppose the real question is, if it's more worth it to go Totem Barb to better protect the temp hp from most damage sources and find a way to get additional attacks outside of Beast Barbarian's Claws.

I did think about Twin Weapon Fighting but that's just slightly worse than the claws, and doesn't improve like the claws will.

I think a Double Bladed scimitar would be a good option, but I'd have to be able to get one.