Crazy fighter idea - the Feat Master

[paladinn]

One of the cool yet annoying things about 3e was that the fighter class was all about feats. You could make a fighter into about anything you wanted by choosing the right feats. Granted, the feat bloat and the evolution of feat chains and trees ended up being pretty gonzo in 3e (and Pathfinder was even much worse!).

In 5e, feats have of course changed and become much more substantial, to the point of being worth sacrificing an ASI (at least sometimes). For most classes this is fine; and for fighter subclasses like the battlemaster and EK, it's probably fine as well. But the champion (generic fighter) has been often disparaged as being Too generic (i.e. boring). I've even developed a variant of a generic fighter that is much better even if it's still a bit boring. And a lot of people have complained about the lack of "granularity" when it comes to fighters and the feat model.

Just thinking "out loud".. a variant champion could become a feat master. Of course, assuming the DM allows feats in his/her game. The 2 "extra" fighter ASI's (L6 and 14) would be required to be devoted to feats. Archetype levels (3, 7, 10, 15 and 18) would also be devoted to feats, unless the player wanted to keep the 2nd fighting style at L10. That would give a fighter 6 or 7 feats without sacrificing a "standard" ASI. On the down side, that is All s/he would get; no other subclass features. Unless a few of the core fighter features were swapped-out (i.e. indomitable, action surge, 2nd wind).

I would assume the feat list would need to be pared-down; and maybe some houserules applied (but then, All of this is houserules). You wouldn't want a bunch of half-feats bumping all a player's stats up to 20.

Thanks!

[noob]

You would risk to run out of useful feats to take fast.

[paladinn]

You would risk to run out of useful feats to take fast.

Depends on how limited you make the feat list?

[GalacticAxekick]

I would take inspiration from Pathfinder's Brawler class, which lacks the weapon and armor proficiencies of the Fighter, but specializes in TEMPORARILY learning feats on the fly, allowing it to specialize with any type of equipment and any fighting style it happens to need at a given moment.


Fighter Subclass: Pragmatist
Improv
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your bonus action to gain nearly any feat, with the following limitations:
If you choose a feat which grants an ability score increase, you do not gain the ability score increase
You cannot gain a feat which grants you proficiency in a new skill, tool or language.
You cannot gain a feat which grants you magical abilities


Whatever feat you gain is lost when you use this bonus action again.

Quick Learner
Starting at 7th level, you ignore ability score prerequisites for feats.

Improved Improv
Starting at 10th level, when you use your bonus action to gain a feat, you can instead gain two feats.

Natural Talent
Starting at 15th level, you ignore racial prerequisites for feats.

Know-It-All
Starting at 18th level, when you use your bonus action to gain a feat, you can instead gain three feats.

[paladinn]

I would take inspiration from Pathfinder's Brawler class, which lacks the weapon and armor proficiencies of the Fighter, but specializes in TEMPORARILY learning feats on the fly, allowing it to specialize with any type of equipment and any fighting style it happens to need at a given moment.


Fighter Subclass: Pragmatist
Improv
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your bonus action to gain nearly any feat, with the following limitations:
If you choose a feat which grants an ability score increase, you do not gain the ability score increase
You cannot gain a feat which grants you proficiency in a new skill, tool or language.
You cannot gain a feat which grants you magical abilities


Whatever feat you gain is lost when you use this bonus action again.

Quick Learner
Starting at 7th level, you ignore ability score prerequisites for feats.

Improved Improv
Starting at 10th level, when you use your bonus action to gain a feat, you can instead gain two feats.

Natural Talent
Starting at 15th level, you ignore racial prerequisites for feats.

Know-It-All
Starting at 18th level, when you use your bonus action to gain a feat, you can instead gain three feats.


Would this work well even with 5e's feats? They are a lot more substantial than 3e/PF's.

I want it to be versatile but not OP

[GalacticAxekick]

Would this work well even with 5e's feats? They are a lot more substantial than 3e/PF's.

I want it to be versatile but not OPA 5e feat is strong enough to be all a player gets at a given level. Fighter subclass features are ALSO strong enough to be all a player gets at a given level. So I would expect them to be roughly even in power.

Obviously some feats are much stronger than others (GWM, Sharpshooter), but they don't stack with one another. By alternating between them or gaining more than one of them, the player is gaining VERSATILITY but not POWER.

If you must nerf it, here are some simple ways to do so:
Make it an action to change between feats instead of a bonus action.
Limit the number of feat changes per short rest.
Lock you into a feat for 1 minute/10 minutes/1 hour after you change into it.

[paladinn]

A 5e feat is strong enough to be all a player gets at a given level. Fighter subclass features are ALSO strong enough to be all a player gets at a given level. So I would expect them to be roughly even in power.

Obviously some feats are much stronger than others (GWM, Sharpshooter), but they don't stack with one another. By alternating between them or gaining more than one of them, the player is gaining VERSATILITY but not POWER.

If you must nerf it, here are some simple ways to do so:
Make it an action to change between feats instead of a bonus action.
Limit the number of feat changes per short rest.
Lock you into a feat for 1 minute/10 minutes/1 hour after you change into it.


So only one feat can be active at a time?

[GalacticAxekick]

So only one feat can be active at a time?No, multiple feats can be active at one time.

At 3rd level, you can use your bonus action to take one feat (or to replace the feat that you've taken).

Starting at 10th level, you can use your bonus action to take two feats (or to replace the two feats that you've taken).

Starting at 18th level, you can use your bonus action to take three feats (or to replace the three feats that you've taken).

EDIT: When I said "they don't stack with one another" I meant that the most powerful feats in the game (GWM and Sharpshooter) can never be used simultaneously. Even if you have both, you are never simultaneously making a melee attack with a heavy weapon and a ranged weapon attack, so you never apply both at once.

The player can stack powerful feats with less powerful feats, or weak feats with weak feats. But I'm not afraid of that being overpowered, especially since that only becomes possible at high levels. For example:
Sharpshooter, Crossbow Master & Skulker
Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master & Sentinel
Grappler, Tavern Brawler & Skill Expert (for Athletics Expertise)
Alert, Observant, & Dungeon Delver

[kazaryu]

tbh, if its just the base fighter, it might even be fine to just...let all of their subclass features be ASIs/feats, no limitations. so they trade all of the cool subclass features for whatever they wanna do. its ok if they end up with a 20 in 3-4 stats if thats what they wanna commit to...idk, seems interesting.

[paladinn]

tbh, if its just the base fighter, it might even be fine to just...let all of their subclass features be ASIs/feats, no limitations. so they trade all of the cool subclass features for whatever they wanna do. its ok if they end up with a 20 in 3-4 stats if thats what they wanna commit to...idk, seems interesting.

That's my thought too.. Replicating the 3e fighter pretty much. Outside of a few core features like indomitable, 2nd wind and action surge, and maybe the L10 2nd fighting style, everything would be feats. That gives 4-5 for the subclass, and maybe 7 for the core class if ASI's are sacrificed. A far cry from the 18 or so that fighters had in 3e; but then, the feats do a lot more now.

[paladinn]

Ok, so I have it on authority that feats are (or should be) roughly equivalent to most class features

Sooo.. I'm considering allowing a player to swap-out fighter features like action surge, indomitable and 2nd wind, or champion features like improved critical, remarkable athlete, superior critical and survivor, for appropriate feats. I think that would open up both the core class and the subclass to a lot of flexibility.

The next question is, which feats would be suitable for this?

[Kane0]

Major Feats (for a fighter)
• Alert
• Crossbow Expert
• Crusher
• Fey Touched
• Gift of the Chromatic Dragon
• Gift of the Metallic Dragon
• Great Weapon Master
• Gunner
• Healer
• Heavy Armor Master
• Inspiring Leader
• Lucky
• Martial Adept
• Mobile
• Mounted Combatant
• Observant
• Piercer
• Polearm Master
• Resilient
• Ritual Caster
• Sentinel
• Shadow Touched
• Sharpshooter
• Shield Master
• Skill Expert
• Slasher
• Telekinetic
• Telepathic

Minor Feats (for a fighter)
• Aberrant Dragonmark
• Actor
• Artificer Initiate
• Athlete
• Charger
• Chef
• Defensive Duelist
• Dual Wielder
• Dungeon Delver
• Durable
• Eldritch Adept
• Elemental Adept
• Fighting Initiate
• Gift of the Gem Dragon
• Grappler
• Keen Mind
• Linguist
• Mage Slayer
• Magic Initiate
• Medium Armor Master
• Metamagic Adept
• Poisoner
• Savage Attacker
• Skilled
• Skulker
• Spell Sniper
• Tavern Brawler
• Tough
• War Caster

Major Fighter features would be Second Wind (in tiers 1 and 2), Action Surge and Extra Attack(s)
Minor Fighter features would be Fighting Style, Second Wind (in tiers 3 and 4) and Indomitable
Archetype levels usually follow a pattern of major + minor at level 3 then alternating between major and minor at levels 7, 10, 15 and 18. It's a loose pattern though, there are a number of outliers.

[paladinn]

Major Feats (for a fighter)
• Alert
• Crossbow Expert
• Crusher
• Fey Touched
• Gift of the Chromatic Dragon
• Gift of the Metallic Dragon
• Great Weapon Master
• Gunner
• Healer
• Heavy Armor Master
• Inspiring Leader
• Lucky
• Martial Adept
• Mobile
• Mounted Combatant
• Observant
• Piercer
• Polearm Master
• Resilient
• Ritual Caster
• Sentinel
• Shadow Touched
• Sharpshooter
• Shield Master
• Skill Expert
• Slasher
• Telekinetic
• Telepathic

Minor Feats (for a fighter)
• Aberrant Dragonmark
• Actor
• Artificer Initiate
• Athlete
• Charger
• Chef
• Defensive Duelist
• Dual Wielder
• Dungeon Delver
• Durable
• Eldritch Adept
• Elemental Adept
• Fighting Initiate
• Gift of the Gem Dragon
• Grappler
• Keen Mind
• Linguist
• Mage Slayer
• Magic Initiate
• Medium Armor Master
• Metamagic Adept
• Poisoner
• Savage Attacker
• Skilled
• Skulker
• Spell Sniper
• Tavern Brawler
• Tough
• War Caster

Major Fighter features would be Second Wind (in tiers 1 and 2), Action Surge and Extra Attack(s)
Minor Fighter features would be Fighting Style, Second Wind (in tiers 3 and 4) and Indomitable
Archetype levels usually follow a pattern of major + minor at level 3 then alternating between major and minor at levels 7, 10, 15 and 18. It's a loose pattern though, there are a number of outliers.

Should the ability increases (the +1's) be allowed if taking feats instead of features?

Also, should "major feats" be used for core class features, and "minor feats" be for subclass features, or vice-versa, or does it matter?

[GalacticAxekick]

I'm considering allowing a player to swap-out fighter features [...] for appropriate feats. [...] The next question is, which feats would be suitable for this?All of them.

For balance purposes, every feat is suitable.

If you're going my route of letting the Fighter change feats on the fly, then you need to be wary of feats that grant ASIs, proficiencies or spells. Their value grows dramatically when you can change your mind about which ability, proficiency or spell.

But if you're going the route of simply replacing a level of features with a feat, every single feat is fair.

[kazaryu]

That's my thought too.. Replicating the 3e fighter pretty much. Outside of a few core features like indomitable, 2nd wind and action surge, and maybe the L10 2nd fighting style, everything would be feats. That gives 4-5 for the subclass, and maybe 7 for the core class if ASI's are sacrificed. A far cry from the 18 or so that fighters had in 3e; but then, the feats do a lot more now.

if they want that fighting style, they can buy it with a feat.

and i'd just straight up have them all be regular ASI's. no need to force them to choose feats.

[Kane0]

Should the ability increases (the +1's) be allowed if taking feats instead of features?

Also, should "major feats" be used for core class features, and "minor feats" be for subclass features, or vice-versa, or does it matter?

I would say taking a major feat that would normally have a +1 without said +1 that would count as a minor feat. A minor feat without the +1 is barely worth considering, like the feats that give the fighter weapon or armor proficiencies (because they already are).

The fact that a feature comes from class or subclass does not indicate whether it is major or minor, the relative power of the feature itself does. That's why I specified tiers with Second Wind; at low levels it's a significant portion of your health and a valuable use of bonus action, but it doesn't scale well into higher levels and you tend to collect more uses for your bonus action that compete with it.