Is there any game mechanical definitions of what constitute a prayer?

[Melcar]

As on the tin...

How do I (or any other being) know when I'm simply wishing for something taking some deity's name in vain or really praying?

The Lady of Pain punishes worshipers, however what constitute worship? How does she know? What is the definition?

Thanks!

[Tzardok]

Deities know when you say one of their names or common titles and can perceive any place where it happened (and any creature that did it) for hours afterwards. This doesn't care about wether it is a prayer or not.

The Lady works in mysterious ways. Fact is she'll find out easily if you are worshipping her. The main point is worship. Faith. Just saying a prayer you don't believe in is something she won't care about (if she's close she propably murders you out of principle, but who knows).

[KillianHawkeye]

IMO, worship is much more involved than saying a few prayers. One prayer, especially a quick or an insincere one, shouldn't count.

Then again, the Lady of Pain isn't really a deity in the normal sense and her reasons for killing or banishing people can't always be predicted or understood.

[Gnaeus]

IMO, worship is much more involved than saying a few prayers. One prayer, especially a quick or an insincere one, shouldn't count.


I think thats a societal perception. In a Polytheist society, much worship is transactional. Someone going on a sea voyage may offer a prayer to Umberlee, for example, despite not even liking her, solely because they are in her domain and afraid. Those people are her worshipers, probably her most important body of worshipers, due to their disproportionate numbers.

[RexDart]

One of our preeminent modern theologians had a lot to say on the topic, including the important question of just how short a prayer can be:


https://youtu.be/3LlJybx381c

[Analytica]

IMO, worship is much more involved than saying a few prayers. One prayer, especially a quick or an insincere one, shouldn't count.

Then again, the Lady of Pain isn't really a deity in the normal sense and her reasons for killing or banishing people can't always be predicted or understood.

I always thought she basically doesn't want to risk becoming a Power, because if she would, she would also become limited by the beliefs her worshippers collectively hold about her to some degree. So she's preventing whatever kind of worship it is that fuels Divine Ranks, whether expressed or not.

[Melcar]

Deities know when you say one of their names or common titles and can perceive any place where it happened (and any creature that did it) for hours afterwards. This doesn't care about wether it is a prayer or not.

The Lady works in mysterious ways. Fact is she'll find out easily if you are worshipping her. The main point is worship. Faith. Just saying a prayer you don't believe in is something she won't care about (if she's close she propably murders you out of principle, but who knows).

What if I don’t say her name out loud, but merely “think” the prayer?

Also, how would she find out? How far does her perception reach? And would she be able to affect people inside Realmspace?


I think thats a societal perception. In a Polytheist society, much worship is transactional. Someone going on a sea voyage may offer a prayer to Umberlee, for example, despite not even liking her, solely because they are in her domain and afraid. Those people are her worshipers, probably her most important body of worshipers, due to their disproportionate numbers.

So, sending a thought of hope not to drown at Umberlee constitutes worship in your opinion? Can you not pray without worshipping?


I always thought she basically doesn't want to risk becoming a Power, because if she would, she would also become limited by the beliefs her worshippers collectively hold about her to some degree. So she's preventing whatever kind of worship it is that fuels Divine Ranks, whether expressed or not.

So, what is fueling divine ranks specifically?


The whole problem I see is that as far as I can tell there is no way of knowing if you are actively worshipping en entity… is praying part of worship or something stand alone? Are you worshiping an entity all the time or only when actively praying (and what constitute prayer?) What if its been 10 years since you last prayed, are you still woshipping?

Faith is not really a thing, since we know the deities exist so I wonder how you determine when worship is actively taking place… like what is the definition?

Thanks!

[MinimanMidget]

The Lady of Pain punishes worshipers, however what constitute worship? How does she know? What is the definition?

This is a wildly different question to "what counts as prayer". The answer to this question is that it counts as worship based solely on whether Her Serenity decides it does. For the purposes of this question, you can assume she knows just about everything. You'd have to ask her for the definition, and good luck with that.

Note that Her Serenity is not a deity, and may well have a different idea of what does or does not constitute prayer or worship than an actual deity would. There's also no reason to assume that she has a single consistent rule that she always follows when determining whether to murder someone.

All that said, you can probably figure out what crosses the line through practical experimentation. When you die horribly, you've gone too far.

[Melcar]

This is a wildly different question to "what counts as prayer". The answer to this question is that it counts as worship based solely on whether Her Serenity decides it does. For the purposes of this question, you can assume she knows just about everything. You'd have to ask her for the definition, and good luck with that.

Note that Her Serenity is not a deity, and may well have a different idea of what does or does not constitute prayer or worship than an actual deity would. There's also no reason to assume that she has a single consistent rule that she always follows when determining whether to murder someone.

All that said, you can probably figure out what crosses the line through practical experimentation. When you die horribly, you've gone too far.

Assuming this person was living in Faerun, would she be able to terminate him/her there? Would her powers reach into AO’s crystal sphere without his explicit permission? And could she even perceive things from inside it?

[Tzardok]

Also, how would she find out?

Unknown, but she will.


How far does her perception reach?

Unknown, but farther than you think.


And would she be able to affect people inside Realmspace?

Unkown, but she'll find a way.

Dude, she's the Lady. There's nothing concrete known about her, and that's the way she's supposed to be.


So, sending a thought of hope not to drown at Umberlee constitutes worship in your opinion? Can you not pray without worshipping?

Of course you can. Lipservice is a thing.


So, what is fueling divine ranks specifically?

Faith.


The whole problem I see is that as far as I can tell there is no way of knowing if you are actively worshipping en entity… is praying part of worship or something stand alone? Are you worshiping an entity all the time or only when actively praying (and what constitute prayer?) What if its been 10 years since you last prayed, are you still woshipping?

The thing is that D&D never saw the need to define those things. If you want a definition, go read a dictionary.

For what it's worth, the way I think of worship it's constituted of many parts. You must have faith in their deity and their dogma. You follow their rules and hold their teachings dear. If I have a love of making, spending my time creating wonderous things and dedicating them to Gond, and try to inspire others to do the same, it doesn't matter if I never say his name. I follow Gond's example, that what Gond is and wants to be.
In short, it's about trying to be like your god, in whatever way you can.


Faith is not really a thing, since we know the deities exist so I wonder how you determine when worship is actively taking place… like what is the definition?

Of course faith is a thing. People worshipping their gods still believe in things that aren't proven to them (and may in fact be untrue). Malar's worshippers have to take on faith that in the afterlife they get to hunt the weak. Cyric's worshippers believe that he is the one true god (he's not). Worshippers of Ptah believe that he created the world (he propably didn't).

Point is, faith is an essential part of worship. It is well known that the worship of the Prime people is more effective than the one of Planars because Planars know more about the multiverse and understand that gods are not exactly the be-all, end-all of it. Just compare the way the talk about them: God. Power. Pele, Allmighty Goddess of Volcanoes, She Who is Fire and Passion, Who Gives Us the Ground We Stand On. Pele, power of fire and earth in the Hawaiian pantheon.


Assuming this person was living in Faerun, would she be able to terminate him/her there? Would her powers reach into AO’s crystal sphere without his explicit permission? And could she even perceive things from inside it?

Who knows? Maybe Ao himself will cause propability to take a stance against this guy, on account that he doesn't want to find out what she could do. Maybe the gods conspire to kill that guy because the gods fear the Lady and don't want her to be one of them. Or maybe the Lady floats left instead of right, causing some poor shmuck to go through the wrong portal who then stumbles and pushes her worshipper down a cliff.

[MinimanMidget]

Assuming this person was living in Faerun, would she be able to terminate him/her there? Would her powers reach into AO’s crystal sphere without his explicit permission? And could she even perceive things from inside it?

Yes, yes, and yes.

[Gnaeus]

So, sending a thought of hope not to drown at Umberlee constitutes worship in your opinion? Can you not pray without worshipping? !

It absolutely does. As does a prayer to the god of war when your son is in battle, or a prayer to a healing god when you are sick.

This is incredibly difficult to discuss without getting into real world religion. I don't know how to cite proof without citing proof. But no, in general all prayer is worship. There are multiple religious traditions which define proper observance as more important than proper belief. And virtually every evil god is primarily worshipped as a way to avoid their wrath or seek their favor. Many aren't particularly loved even by their followers, nor would they want to be. Umberlee is a goddess of her rank because people fear drowning and monsters and she wouldn't want it any other way.

It isn't like faith would even be much of a factor in a world where Gods are objectively real and provably have divine mantles. Everyone on every ship knows that Umberlee is real and they are in her power.

[Melcar]

Yes, yes, and yes.

So you believe she is more powerful than AO? Even when dealing with things inside his crystal sphere?

I would have thought he had total dominion of what went on and who’s powers could reach inside… I could be wrong of course!?

Both are statless and both mystical, therefore I would assume they would be somewhat equal on neutral ground and more powerful that each other in their own domain!

[MinimanMidget]

I would have thought he had total dominion of what went on and who’s powers could reach inside… I could be wrong of course!?

The Dark Powers can steal people from FR, there are portals to Sigil from FR, and there are no indications that either require Ao's permission. Ao has dominion over deities within the sphere, but Her Serenity is not a deity.

[Tzardok]

The best way to treat the Lady, I think, is to assume that she's the embodiment of "There's always a bigger fish". No matter how powerful [insert entity here] is, she's bigger.

Also, remember that at the end of "Die Vecna, die!" the Lady repairs the damage done to the multiverse itself by Vecna's stunt. The Lady is obviously on a higher tier of vague omnipotence than overgods.

[afroakuma]

This feels like fishing for some kind of way to mess with the Lady. Is that what the goal is?

Also worth noting that Ao if anything sympathizes - he's been systematically working to erase mentions of his own name from Toril in the wake of the Time of Troubles when he started getting worshipped, which he doesn't want either.

[Melcar]

This feels like fishing for some kind of way to mess with the Lady. Is that what the goal is?

Also worth noting that Ao if anything sympathizes - he's been systematically working to erase mentions of his own name from Toril in the wake of the Time of Troubles when he started getting worshipped, which he doesn't want either.

No, not directly. It’s more a question of remaining critical of the idea that she is omnipotent, omniscient and will slay you outright for worshipping her… if that is the case, then I would want to know exactly what constitutes this, to make sure I didn’t fall into any grey areas. The devil is in the detail after all. And generally I dislike blanket statements like that… for instance I would argue that she would be completely indifferent to what happens outside of Sigil - so long as it does not rock any multiverse balance or affects Sigil or the great wheel in any negative way.

The suggestion that such an unfathomably powerful being would care what humans in some random crystal sphere thinks or does seems ludicrous to me… she clearly has much more important things to do than terminate wannabe priests and temples devoted to her…

So I’m actively trying to understand what makes her tick and why? This includes trying to understand how her perception might work… as in how (or if) is she able to she mind read every being in the multiverse simultaneously, even people with Mind Blank - that seems, even for her, like an exaggeration…

[KillianHawkeye]

What if I don’t say her name out loud, but merely “think” the prayer?

Then the thought police come to get you. I've heard their SWAT teams are manned by Mind Flayers. :smallwink:

[Mordaedil]

No, not directly. It’s more a question of remaining critical of the idea that she is omnipotent, omniscient and will slay you outright for worshipping her… if that is the case, then I would want to know exactly what constitutes this, to make sure I didn’t fall into any grey areas. The devil is in the detail after all. And generally I dislike blanket statements like that… for instance I would argue that she would be completely indifferent to what happens outside of Sigil - so long as it does not rock any multiverse balance or affects Sigil or the great wheel in any negative way.

The suggestion that such an unfathomably powerful being would care what humans in some random crystal sphere thinks or does seems ludicrous to me… she clearly has much more important things to do than terminate wannabe priests and temples devoted to her…

So I’m actively trying to understand what makes her tick and why? This includes trying to understand how her perception might work… as in how (or if) is she able to she mind read every being in the multiverse simultaneously, even people with Mind Blank - that seems, even for her, like an exaggeration…

I think, while a DM would need to make it clear that such a thing has consequence, is that you need to pay attention to the portfolio she governs and not pray or wish upon the related markings. I might be mistaken, but I think as the governor of the city of doors, it might be sort of taboo to pray before using a spell such as dimension door or similar teleportation device. Like, she isn't recognized as a deity in any capacity, she doesn't get the benefits of any portfolio realistically, but I think the implication is that she's powerful enough to have such responsibility thrust upon her if she was "worshipped". So she eliminates anyone that is trying to go out of their way to get her into trouble by granting her divine ranks.

So you'd be safe unless you went out of your way specifically to make worship of her.

[afroakuma]

No, not directly. It’s more a question of remaining critical of the idea that she is omnipotent, omniscient and will slay you outright for worshipping her… if that is the case, then I would want to know exactly what constitutes this, to make sure I didn’t fall into any grey areas.

It's not hard not to fall into grey areas. Taking two examples:

• You have presumably heard of Steven Spielberg, the film director. You also likely do not engage in any conduct, mental or otherwise, that would constitute worship of Mr. Spielberg. You might think he's an excellent film director, but I suspect that's the limit. For people who have heard of the Lady of Pain, this is basically the line - "oh, she governs Sigil and keeps out gods? She must be crazy powerful." Nothing of actual veneration or worship or prayer, any more than you pray to Mr. Spielberg.

• You have presumably not heard of Rita MacNeil, the Canadian musical artist (I mean, you have now, but prior to). You definitely don't venerate, worship, or pray to Ms. MacNeil, having not heard of her. There is zero risk of you even accidentally doing so. This is where everyone who has not heard of the Lady of Pain (which includes virtually all persons living on the Material Plane, as even if millions somehow know of her, trillions live there, making it still a drop in the bucket).


And generally I dislike blanket statements like that

I mean, this will be your problem in a nutshell then, because much like the Dark Powers or Ao, the Lady by her very nature is a blanket statement. She's color and a DM's hammer for if the PCs get out of line in a particular area, no different from leaping straight into the sun to see if the DM will let you have plot armor. The answer to "can the PCs screw with her and get away with it" will always be no, because that's her whole purpose - and if you're not playing in a game that touches on Sigil, it should literally never matter.


The suggestion that such an unfathomably powerful being would care what humans in some random crystal sphere thinks or does seems ludicrous to me… she clearly has much more important things to do than terminate wannabe priests and temples devoted to her…

...except insofar as it's crucial she not be deified, lest she become a point source of divine energy at the fulcrum of the multiverse itself, that is kind of her most important job. Defending Sigil from deities is kind of a big deal for her.


So I’m actively trying to understand what makes her tick and why?

What makes her tick? The DM. She's a hammer. That's her role. There's no argument to make via RAW, RAI, or anything else that behavior XYZ is fine against the Lady, because "against the Lady" is quite literally the equivalent of electing to walk straight up to where the rocks fall that make everyone die.

So we get back to the question, what do you actually want? A rules-based way to defy the Lady of Pain? To ask your DM not to use her in your campaign? To ask all DMs not to use her in a campaign? (If it's that one, no.) What is the merit of this line of inquiry?

In answer to the title of the thread, just to get that one out of the way, no. There is no in-game mechanical definition of what constitutes a prayer. Or a foot, for that matter. Or a hand, save to articulate that your average humanoid usually has two.

[Duke of Urrel]

No, not directly. It’s more a question of remaining critical of the idea that she is omnipotent, omniscient and will slay you outright for worshipping her… if that is the case, then I would want to know exactly what constitutes this, to make sure I didn’t fall into any grey areas. The devil is in the detail after all. And generally I dislike blanket statements like that… for instance I would argue that she would be completely indifferent to what happens outside of Sigil - so long as it does not rock any multiverse balance or affects Sigil or the great wheel in any negative way.

The suggestion that such an unfathomably powerful being would care what humans in some random crystal sphere thinks or does seems ludicrous to me… she clearly has much more important things to do than terminate wannabe priests and temples devoted to her…

So I’m actively trying to understand what makes her tick and why? This includes trying to understand how her perception might work… as in how (or if) is she able to she mind read every being in the multiverse simultaneously, even people with Mind Blank - that seems, even for her, like an exaggeration…

I, too, am "critical of the idea" that the Lady of Pain "is omnipotent, omniscient and will slay you outright for worshipping her." In a polytheistic world, no deity can be omnipotent. Every deity is limited by the existence of other deities. As for omniscience, no deity can possibly know more than your dungeon master, which imposes some limits on what even the Lady of Pain can possibly know. So I don't agree with Tzardok that the Lady of Pain is simply superior to all the other powers in the multiverse.

I also agree that the Lady of Pain has better things to do than worry about what some "humans in some crystal sphere" think about her. Analytica has suggested that the Lady of Pain doesn't want worshipers because she doesn't want to become a proper deity. I don't believe a being as powerful as the Lady of Pain can possibly be compelled, by mere mortals, to become anything greater, lesser, or in any way other than what she is.

Nobody knows how powerful the Lady of Pain really is, but I think it is reasonable to assume that she possesses her powers by general agreement of all the other deities around the wheel of the multiverse. The Lady's Realm is the Concordant Domain of the Outlands. This implies that her power, though very great, is not absolute, but contingent upon a common agreement. She possesses and wields power because all the other deities know and trust that she is absolutely impartial and will not abuse her power to favor any alignment over any other.

In my humble opinion, the real reason why the Lady of Pain rejects worship is that she regards prayers as bribes. She is keen to present herself as absolutely impartial, incorruptible, and not to be influenced by anyone. Even tolerating worshipers would make her seem possibly to have a conflict of interest – and so she refuses to tolerate them. And every zero-tolerance policy sometimes demands maximum punishment.

This doesn't mean that the Lady of Pain deals instant death to anybody who invokes her name for any reason. Some mortal beings are really too remote or insignificant for her to care about them, no matter what they say about her. But anybody involved in the City of Sigil, either politically or economically, had better be cautious. Flattery will get you absolutely nowhere with the Lady of Pain, and it's foolish to try to draw her attention with loud praise. This is a being who has staked her whole reputation, among mortals and immortals alike, upon being absolutely neutral with regard to all factions and absolutely immune to all influence peddlers, regardless of their agenda. As soon as you praise her too loudly and publicly for her to ignore, she will most surely shut you up, and she will do so in a way that serves as a grim warning to anybody else who thinks they can charm her into taking their side.

[redking]

It's likely that the Lady of Pain cannot hear prayers to her outside of Sigil. Therefore, such prayers are of no consequence.

Inside of Sigil however, prayers to the Lady cause cosmic contradictions that the Lady must forcefully stop. By praying to the Lady in Sigil, that is a form of worshipping her, you are trying to make her into a deity, and a deity cannot be in Sigil. Remember that belief creates matter and reality on the planes. Enough people in Sigil praying to the Lady would undermine her very existence. That is why the lady is quick to punish those that offer her prayers.

As for what constitutes a prayer, use common sense. 1. Must be intended as a prayer. 2. Is not an epithet like "by the lady's blades".

[Melcar]

... A lot of interesting stuff...

So we get back to the question, what do you actually want? A rules-based way to defy the Lady of Pain? To ask your DM not to use her in your campaign? To ask all DMs not to use her in a campaign? (If it's that one, no.) What is the merit of this line of inquiry?.

I think after reading your long post is that I'm not sure what I was looking to gain here. I think its just curiosity. While you might be able to articulate with clear concise precision I might not be. English however proficient I might be, is not my first language. So in short I'm not sure...

I think I'm trying to gauge exactly where the line is drawn in terms of how hard she can be provoked before reacting. And well, I disliked the answers I got, because they offered no explanation as to how she is able to do the things she apparently will do to a being if worshiped/prayed to/ provoked.

After not getting the answer that saw as the most logical for an omnipotent being in as much as I can draw any logical conclusion from that concept I wanted to challenge the notion that she is actually capable or willing to do some of the things she apparently does. I wanted to discuss what we might know or think about her. Simply because I think its interesting... I assume that why most of us is here on this forum, yes?

Specifically how are we supposed reason that she is able to read the minds of all sentient beings across the entire multiverse (Omniverse?) simultaneously? That seems to me to be a prerequisite for her ability to smite any and all who dares worship her. The specific worship questions was as mentioned to se how much you could do and how, before angering her, and I wanted to know preciously so my uppity DM wouldn't resort to his own definition, but that we use a game mechanical one if that situation ever occurs... not that I ever think it will mind you.

And if its not her mind reaching out, what specifically is worshiping activating/ sending off? And do there have to be Line of effect or anything for that to work? Is one person enough to send this magical message or would you need multiple "casters" like Myriad High Elven Magical rituals? These are some of the things I was curious about knowing... and my own conclusion is that if I can't explain it in a meaningful way to a player, it doesn't happen in-game. That why all my NPCs have full write ups.

Now I can totally understand that the designers have placed a being capable of protecting the integrity of the great wheel, so no adventures go **** that up. Sure, but, as I've mentioned I dislike having no plausible explanation for how she is even aware of some of the things she's aware of. I mean to me, it should be possible to hide from her somehow. This dislike is probably something that comes from my dislike of the idea that God in some interpretations would punish someone for thought crimes (sinning), because it would know (in real time what you were thinking). Apparently she has this ability...

Even if we made Level 15000 Sarrukh Pun Pun, with max levels in every single base class, and PrC. With every feat, spell, spell like, supernatural and extraordinary ability, with every immunity and all the best most potent templates and thus having an arbitrarily high ability modifiers, we are still to believe that this Pun Pun with all epic spell (even ones specifically designed to shield Pun Pun from her perception) is not able to hide from her? Not on its own pocket plane, not anywhere in the multiverse/omniverse... and despite all the immunities and magical (and mundane) barriers she knows in real time and is able to instantly affect this being despite being many light years from Sigil?

That, I find not only extreme lame but also highly unlikely that she would operate that way. After all she is only an Ancient Brethren and they don't seem to represent the D&D version of the One Above All from Marvel. Clearly extremely powerful but I find the idea of them being that omnipotent wrong.

So long story short, I guess I wanted to discuss how we might think she operates and what is reasonable to expect from a more "logical" standpoint. Or how do we think she should operate, given what we know and what we can infer...

EDIT: After writing and reading this long winded post again, you can kind of say that I want to figure out what abilities she should have if one were to do a proper write-up of her...


I, too, am "critical of the idea" that the Lady of Pain "is omnipotent, omniscient and will slay you outright for worshipping her." In a polytheistic world, no deity can be omnipotent. Every deity is limited by the existence of other deities. As for omniscience, no deity can possibly know more than your dungeon master, which imposes some limits on what even the Lady of Pain can possibly know. So I don't agree with Tzardok that the Lady of Pain is simply superior to all the other powers in the multiverse.

I also agree that the Lady of Pain has better things to do than worry about what some "humans in some crystal sphere" think about her. Analytica has suggested that the Lady of Pain doesn't want worshipers because she doesn't want to become a proper deity. I don't believe a being as powerful as the Lady of Pain can possibly be compelled, by mere mortals, to become anything greater, lesser, or in any way other than what she is.

Nobody knows how powerful the Lady of Pain really is, but I think it is reasonable to assume that she possesses her powers by general agreement of all the other deities around the wheel of the multiverse. The Lady's Realm is the Concordant Domain of the Outlands. This implies that her power, though very great, is not absolute, but contingent upon a common agreement. She possesses and wields power because all the other deities know and trust that she is absolutely impartial and will not abuse her power to favor any alignment over any other.

In my humble opinion, the real reason why the Lady of Pain rejects worship is that she regards prayers as bribes. She is keen to present herself as absolutely impartial, incorruptible, and not to be influenced by anyone. Even tolerating worshipers would make her seem possibly to have a conflict of interest – and so she refuses to tolerate them. And every zero-tolerance policy sometimes demands maximum punishment.

This doesn't mean that the Lady of Pain deals instant death to anybody who invokes her name for any reason. Some mortal beings are really too remote or insignificant for her to care about them, no matter what they say about her. But anybody involved in the City of Sigil, either politically or economically, had better be cautious. Flattery will get you absolutely nowhere with the Lady of Pain, and it's foolish to try to draw her attention with loud praise. This is a being who has staked her whole reputation, among mortals and immortals alike, upon being absolutely neutral with regard to all factions and absolutely immune to all influence peddlers, regardless of their agenda. As soon as you praise her too loudly and publicly for her to ignore, she will most surely shut you up, and she will do so in a way that serves as a grim warning to anybody else who thinks they can charm her into taking their side.

See, this is a lot close to how I not only think she should operation but also what I find more logical or reasonable. I would ague that her complete omnipotence/omniscience must be limited somehow to her portfolio (in lack of a better word), which to me makes a lot more sense. I understand what makes sense to me has no bearing on how the game and lore actually works, I'm just saying its more in line of my own interpretation.


On a more general note, has anyone ever run a game with her in it, where she was not just some background nuclear deterence, but an active NPC?

[afroakuma]

I think I'm trying to gauge exactly where the line is drawn in terms of how hard she can be provoked before reacting.

Why, though? It's essentially DM-dependent. The campaign setting even tells us, specifically:


Bluntly put, as far as a Planescape campaign's concerned, the Lady of Pain's little more than an icon that crystallizes the mood of the campaign setting. Player characters should never deal with her. She doesn't give out missions, she never grants powers to anyone, and they can't rob her temples because she hasn't got any. If she ever does make an appearance, it should be simply to reinforce the wonder and mystery of the whole place.


Specifically how are we supposed reason that she is able to read the minds of all sentient beings across the entire multiverse (Omniverse?) simultaneously? That seems to me to be a prerequisite for her ability to smite any and all who dares worship her.

Ah, well that at least would not be the case. We may not have a definition of which inputs constitute worship, but worship creates an output - this we know, because deities are dependent on said output to survive. Here comes another strained analogy, but I hope it works.

• Imagine all deities have post boxes. Worship comes to a central repository (the Astral Plane) in the form of mail. That mail is sorted and sent out to those post boxes. Deities open the post boxes, get their mail, all is well.

• Mortals do not have post boxes. Post boxes are only for deities. If they are somehow worshipped, mail goes to the central repository, but it doesn't actually have anywhere to go from there. It gets filed as a dead letter.

• If the central repository gets so flooded with mail for a particular recipient that it's clear it needs to go somewhere, they may look up this mortal and go install a post box for them so that they can give them all of their mail and stop holding it. This is divinity through being worshipped sufficiently.

• The Lady of Pain is like if the CIA or equivalent agency was reviewing incoming mail to see where it's going and where it came from. She doesn't need to read the mail to know it exists and to whom it is addressed - and she can follow the return address if there's a need. After all, the CIA doesn't want just anyone being able to send them mail. Arguably they don't really want anyone sending them mail.


The specific worship questions was as mentioned to se how much you could do and how, before angering her, and I wanted to know preciously so my uppity DM wouldn't resort to his own definition, but that we use a game mechanical one if that situation ever occurs... not that I ever think it will mind you.

Your problem there is that the DM is never "uppity" in that sense - the DM is the creator of the world, the referee of the setting, and decides within their game what is and is not true. If the DM says fighters actually have d4s as hit dice, all the pointing to the book in the world won't help if that DM has chosen to override the book. You, as a player, can decide such a DM is not worth playing with, but the argument to be made isn't that the DM is "wrong," it's that the DM is making choices as a referee which conflict with what you enjoy. Would I play with a DM who did that? Nope, and I would explain to such a DM why I think it's a bad idea and what I believe the ramifications are, but the DM's job is to be inspired by the text, not bound by it. No matter what you establish here, your DM can and will be free to make up his own mind on what he thinks within the context of your game.

To say nothing of, of course, why would you ever even be in such a scenario? Reminds me of the minotaur story. :smalltongue:


I mean to me, it should be possible to hide from her somehow.

Oh it is, just go to Harbinger House. She won't be able to find you in there. If you start messing with her or her city from within Harbinger House, she will figure it out very very quickly and take measures to extract you, which might include burning it to the ground if that's the most efficient way. If you're not messing with her or her city, you could kick back in there basically forever until the owners got tired of you.


This dislike is probably something that comes from my dislike of the idea that God in some interpretations would punish someone for thought crimes (sinning), because it would know (in real time what you were thinking). Apparently she has this ability...

That presumes someone merely thinking about her constitutes worship. It's unfortunately rather difficult to discuss this in any productive context given the topic and the rules, however, so I'm kiiiind of running out of road to talk about this.


Even if we made Level 15000 Sarrukh Pun Pun, with max levels in every single base class, and PrC. With every feat, spell, spell like, supernatural and extraordinary ability, with every immunity and all the best most potent templates and thus having an arbitrarily high ability modifiers, we are still to believe that this Pun Pun with all epic spell (even ones specifically designed to shield Pun Pun from her perception) is not able to hide from her?

Correct, because the Lady is statless. The idea of beating her using the rules is by definition laughable because she doesn't play by them. Are you really telling me you want to build Pun-Pun and develop epic spells just so you can sit in some pocket universe worshipping the Lady of Pain?


That, I find not only extreme lame but also highly unlikely that she would operate that way. After all she is only an Ancient Brethren

Still no. We've had that discussion, though, and I'm not eager for a repeat.


and they don't seem to represent the D&D version of the One Above All from Marvel.

Treading daaaangerous ground here. It sounds like you want to talk about this in terms of something we are very much not allowed to.


EDIT: After writing and reading this long winded post again, you can kind of say that I want to figure out what abilities she should have if one were to do a proper write-up of her...

Which, again, goes completely against the very nature of her. She's not intended to have stats or a write-up or listed abilities. By definition, doing any of those things detracts from what she is, just like naming and statting the Dark Powers goes against what they are.


On a more general note, has anyone ever run a game with her in it, where she was not just some background nuclear deterence, but an active NPC?

I've had her appear in two games, one running Die Vecna Die and the other time to add some color to the kickoff of a campaign. Beyond that, as an active NPC, definitely no. That's not what she exists for. Putting her front and center is just asking for PCs to try and figure out if they can kill her. It's honestly perplexing to me how often she gets put in the crosshairs for questions like this compared to the Dark Powers, who do worse and more extensive and far more railroady things. Must be something about being a visible and physical presence, I suppose.