5e another Monk Approach

[BerzerkerUnit]

I think it's fair to say most agree Ki points are too few at early levels and needlessly abundant at high level.

Ki costs are absurd, scaling wildly at low levels for too little effect.

So let's say you get Wisdom+level Ki.

And what if we make step of the wind free.
Keep Monk speed bonus but require "committed Ki" so every ki point you commit to this feature boosts speed by 5ft to a limit of your Proficiency bonus. Uncommitting the ki allows it to be spent elsewhere. Committing Ki is an action.

Ki strikes (level 6 magic attacks) add +1 for every 2 ki committed to a limit of proficiency.

Tongue of Sun and Moon, some others etc. require Committed Ki. This cuts down the available Ki for "combat" but you can sacrifice your perks, a lot of the general "always a little magic" can be sacrificed for bigger effects.

In return for this necessary tradeoff, we roll down the Ki costs of things that scale and we make a lot of boilerplate stuff (like step of the wind) free outright.

Just a thought, will be workshopping it a little more.

[Notafish]

I think this sounds cool, but it's a little hard to understand - It sounds like alongside spending ki for spell effects you're suggesting a system where you can essentially build your own martial arts stance, but might need several rounds of preparation to get all the components in place? I think that could work, but it might be hard to fit in alongside things that need to be limited resources like Stunning Strike and the subclass abilities.

I do agree with you regarding ki scaling - having bonus ki to start would be very helpful at low levels, but ideally there would also be some sort of ki sink at higher levels - here's where I think being able to "commit" energy to the ki strikes like you suggested would be ideal - taking an action to power up or get into a better fighting stance feels very much a thing I'd want a fantasy monk to have the option to do. I also agree that using the level 6 ability like you suggested is a natural way of doing this - would you need or want other ki-committing options? (maybe, but additional options for committing ki could also be part of a subclass)

With committed ki strikes, I do think committing ki would need to have an upper limit - possibly scaling with Proficiency or monk level if the feature added persistent damage. Something like "you may commit 2 ki points as an action to raise your unarmed attack and damage bonuses by +1. When ki is committed in this way, it cannot be used for other purposes until you complete a short or long rest. You may commit an additional 2 ki in this way (for stacking bonuses, up to a maximum of 8 ki for +4) at levels 10, 14, and 18. While ki is committed, your unarmed strikes count as magical for overcoming resistances and immunities."

With more ki at level 2 (either a Wis bonus or a flat +3), I don't think that Step of the Wind would need to be made free, but I do think the power is a little weak as written - I'd change the jump distance clause to giving the monk an explicit limited flight ability - they can move as if they had a fly speed equal to their regular speed (or half their regular speed if you want things a bit less wuxia), but they must end the turn on the ground or risk falling damage.

Years ago, I remember that the forum did a collaborative redesign of Elements Monk - the major changes were adding new elemental spell effects from newer materials and reducing ki costs to 1 ki/spell level for spell effects, in line with Way of Shadow.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I think this sounds cool, but it's a little hard to understand - It sounds like alongside spending ki for spell effects you're suggesting a system where you can essentially build your own martial arts stance, but might need several rounds of preparation to get all the components in place? I think that could work, but it might be hard to fit in alongside things that need to be limited resources like Stunning Strike and the subclass abilities.

I do agree with you regarding ki scaling - having bonus ki to start would be very helpful at low levels, but ideally there would also be some sort of ki sink at higher levels - here's where I think being able to "commit" energy to the ki strikes like you suggested would be ideal - taking an action to power up or get into a better fighting stance feels very much a thing I'd want a fantasy monk to have the option to do. I also agree that using the level 6 ability like you suggested is a natural way of doing this - would you need or want other ki-committing options? (maybe, but additional options for committing ki could also be part of a subclass)

With committed ki strikes, I do think committing ki would need to have an upper limit - possibly scaling with Proficiency or monk level if the feature added persistent damage. Something like "you may commit 2 ki points as an action to raise your unarmed attack and damage bonuses by +1. When ki is committed in this way, it cannot be used for other purposes until you complete a short or long rest. You may commit an additional 2 ki in this way (for stacking bonuses, up to a maximum of 8 ki for +4) at levels 10, 14, and 18. While ki is committed, your unarmed strikes count as magical for overcoming resistances and immunities."

With more ki at level 2 (either a Wis bonus or a flat +3), I don't think that Step of the Wind would need to be made free, but I do think the power is a little weak as written - I'd change the jump distance clause to giving the monk an explicit limited flight ability - they can move as if they had a fly speed equal to their regular speed (or half their regular speed if you want things a bit less wuxia), but they must end the turn on the ground or risk falling damage.

Years ago, I remember that the forum did a collaborative redesign of Elements Monk - the major changes were adding new elemental spell effects from newer materials and reducing ki costs to 1 ki/spell level for spell effects, in line with Way of Shadow.

Thanks so much for your feedback. For the Ki strikes feature I said limit of proficiency and at +1/2ki that means cap of +3 for 6 Ki and no need to overcommit at lower levels.

Bumping step of the wind to fly speed is a good compromise if you feel it needs to have a cost. I’d probably split the difference and make it free but add the flight for 1 Ki. Or add your speed bonus to jump height and/or distance for the round.

And persistent move speed buff was the other Ki sink. I’d probably also add a Ki sink to unarmored defense. So you could conceivably get +3 AC for 6 Ki, +3 attack and dmg for another 6, and +30 move for another 6. All scaled off proficiency.

That’s a monstrous investment for always on very rare to legendary effects (equivalent magic weapons/armor). I might actually lower the invest lent for movement to +10ft per one limit +30. Maybe another for +1 to Ki DC limit +3.

Bonus from items don’t stack (or maybe they do, monos are bad).

With additional wisdom mod Ki you could be looking at 25 Ki, you’d commit between 15 and 18 for Max always on buffs. Leaving 7-10 for stunning strikes/patient defenses etc.

You’d be looking at level 11 with 3-4 attacks per round with +2 hit/dmg, AC 21, +2 to Ki DC and +20 move. That would only leave you 1 Ki, but you can pick and choose. Got a magic short sword; dump the 4 invested in hit/dmg, got a pair of magic boots? Skip move speed.

[nickl_2000]

The simpler way may be when you level you get to buy access to certain abilities with you Ki and then you have access to those abilities? It seems like it's using the warlock invocation approach and those "ki abilities" can be used X times per day. Subclass abilities that trigger off ki are "ki abilities" that are only available to that subclass (again like invocations).


I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work, but you would need to spend a lot of time play testing abilities to find the right amount of uses per day and finding the right balance.

[Notafish]

Thanks so much for your feedback. For the Ki strikes feature I said limit of proficiency and at +1/2ki that means cap of +3 for 6 Ki and no need to overcommit at lower levels.


ah - sorry, I missed that on my first read - yeah, I like that.

committed ki for buffing movement and unarmored defense also makes sense to me, although with AC you either have the problem of players limiting their options in order to be passively tanky at lower levels, or nigh-invulnerable to hit point damage after they get evasion at level 7.

Would the movement boost be in addition to the unarmored movement feature, or a replacement of that feature?

as far as stacking item bonuses go, it would make sense to me to have the committed ki only work when unarmored and not carrying a shield. I can't remember which bonuses stack or don't stack according to the rules, but how many items are there that increase attack/damage from unarmed strikes? If I were doing a loosey-goosey home game play testing in a campaign with these rules, I'd likely say that bonuses from a magic amulet or whatever are fine, but not past the proficiency limit.

Edit: I'm not running anything right now, but if I did would you be open to me trying some of these ideas? I would send notes.

[Psyren]

I'd say 3x PB is a decent level of scaling for ki. You start the game with far more (6 at second level instead of 2, upgrading to 9 at fifth level instead of 5 etc), and end roughly at the same place at high levels (18 at levels 17-20.)

If you wanted to make ki a long-rest resource instead of a short-rest one, simply make it 3x PB, and you can meditate for a minute to recover them all either Wis mod or PB times per day.