Balancing homebrew archetype

[Simonvl]

One of the players in my campaign is multiclassing as a rogue. However, he didn't like the normal archetypes all that much, so he was looking amongst homebrew archetypes. I usually don't mind customizing rules like that, but the archetype he found was too overpowered to my tastes. I have a few ideas on how to balance the archetype, while still keeping it interesting enough for the player, but as I find balancing in 5e difficult (I have much more experience with 3.5) I was hoping to hear other people's thoughts on it as well.

Unfortunately as a new member here, I am not allowed to share a link yet, but the archetype can be found on 'GM Binder' under 'rogue archetypes'. It is found in a file with multiple archetypes, but the player is solely interested in the Justicar archetype.

The player is interested in this archetype because he plays a somewhat conflicted character who was raised by a paladin order, but due to trauma, he partially turned away from this order/goddess. He will probably only level rogue up till level 3 or 4, so there is little need to look at the higher abilities.

The reason I think this archetype is overpowered is because it is based on the Arcane Trickster (which is already kind of a strong archetype) but instead of using Intelligence as spellcasting ability (which the rogue has little use for), it uses charisma (which is essential for every face-character). In addition, it has quite a strong spell list with many powerful damage dealing spells (while the Arcane Trickster is mostly limited to enchantment and illusion). Aside from this, the Justicar gains the ability of invisibility once/short rest and can use a detect evil ability.

Please let me know whether you guys agree it is overpowered and how you would fix this archetype, without it becoming too weak or bland.

[Psyren]

I'd say it's actually kind of weak.

The ability to turn invisible for a minute is nice, but it's only 1/SR until 13th level and breaks if you do nearly anything but move. And though the spell list has some good stuff on it (I don't really get the Warlock spells being there), it's also missing some things ATs typically go for. No Minor Illusion (for Cunning Action Hide), no Mirror Image (to trigger Sentinel), Find Familiar (for easy SA), no Mage Hand or Prestidigitation, no Greater Invisibility etc. They also have no built-in ability to pick up useful spells from other sources - no Silvery Barbs, no Borrowed Knowledge, no Haste, no Fly etc.

Consecrated Strikes is basically a waste of spell slots as soon as you get a magic weapon.
Divine Judgement is a waste of spell slots period.
Anointed Inquisitor (Cha to all saves) is great, but you get it way too late (17th level) for it to matter in most games.

It's better than Inquisitor and Mastermind, maybe even Thief and Scout, but I would put it behind AT, Soulknife and Phantom.

[Simonvl]

Thanks for your reply Psyren. I am not sure I agree with you completely, although I am open to being convinced as my experience with 5e is limited (only 3 years against 20+ years with 3e). Below are my reasons why I am still on the fence, but it is by no means meant to disparage your reply. Just trying to find a solution everyone in my party is happy with.

I must say I mainly looked at the level 3 abilities, as the player has already declared he will not level rogue higher than that, so I have not looked at the higher level abilities in much detail. So I'm trying to judge the archetype mainly whether or not the things you get at level 3 are too overpowered.

If I were to look at the higher abilities I might be more inclined to agree with you, although the sacrifice of spell slots is usually not that bad in my opinion if you are playing a character that has better options for his standard action than casting a spell.

When I just judge it by the things you get at level 3, I feel like it is too powerful because for a level 3 ability, normal invisibility is pretty powerful (wizards can get it at level 3 and an AT has to wait until level 7 to be able to select it). Of course, at higher levels, it might be replaced by improved invisibility or another option. For 3rd level characters I see a lot more use for invisibility than for mage hand legerdemain, although this invisibility is limited in its use.

And looking at the level 1 spell list, I agree it misses some of the AT spells that allow trickery (in and outside battle), but in return it offers spells like guiding bolt that deal considerable damage, making the rogue a serious magical-attacker in combat. This is made even stronger because unlike the AT that has to improve its intelligence that benefits almost nothing else for the rogue (it did in 3e, but in 5e it only seems to help with investigation checks), it can be done with charisma instead (and I don't think I ever saw a low-charisma rogue in all my years of playing), so the Justicar doesn't have to sacrifice his other main abilities at all.

Although I think the above mentioned things already go above the AT, the Justicar even has another ability, Divine Sense, which is not really that powerful, but just a cherry on top of a pretty impressive cake.

Again, I am open for people to change my mind, so please tell me if my reasoning above is wrong.

[meandean]

An Arcane Trickster could just as well multi-class into Wizard and make it far less of a sacrifice to boost their Intelligence. It's true that there are more Charisma-based classes and thus Charisma is "generally better" in that sense, but I don't think that justifies saying that a Charisma-based 1/3 caster is inherently too unbalanced to exist.

Giving this subclass Channel Divinity doesn't make sense to me. 1/3 casters don't otherwise get the spellcasting class's actual class features... Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights don't get Arcane Recovery. If you don't like invisibility (which does seem fine to me), you can replace it with something like Trickery Cleric's Invoke Duplicity that is on theme and has a potential use, but is not all that great. It shouldn't literally be "Channel Divinity", though. (And thus could easily be long rest rather than short, if you prefer.)

I agree that having a handpicked spell list feels a little weird. I would envision something more like anything off the base Paladin list, or abjuration, divination, enchantment, or illusion spells from the base Cleric list. No cantrips. With the spell lists as they currently stand, this would result in:

Rogue level 3: 1st level paladin spells, bane, sanctuary

Rogue level 7: 2nd level paladin spells, augury, borrowed knowledge, calm emotions, find traps, hold person, silence

Rogue level 13: 3rd level paladin spells, beacon of hope, clairvoyance, glyph of warding, protection from energy, tongues

Rogue level 17: 4th level paladin spells, divination, freedom of movement

It would also be best combined with having prepared spells, which would mean you can't use the same Spellcasting table as Arcane Trickster, but it shouldn't be difficult to create the equivalent for prepared casters.

This admittedly departs from the flavor that the class as written has, which seems like less of a friendly Paladin and more of a Vengeance type. But, I feel like it's ultimately fair to say that your pseudo-Paladin gets the spells Paladins get, plus some others that are good but nothing ultra-amazing. Perhaps the "smite"-esque features could be beefed up a bit for the Vengeance-esque aspect.

[MrStabby]

Thanks for your reply Psyren. I am not sure I agree with you completely, although I am open to being convinced as my experience with 5e is limited (only 3 years against 20+ years with 3e). Below are my reasons why I am still on the fence, but it is by no means meant to disparage your reply. Just trying to find a solution everyone in my party is happy with.

I must say I mainly looked at the level 3 abilities, as the player has already declared he will not level rogue higher than that, so I have not looked at the higher level abilities in much detail. So I'm trying to judge the archetype mainly whether or not the things you get at level 3 are too overpowered.

If I were to look at the higher abilities I might be more inclined to agree with you, although the sacrifice of spell slots is usually not that bad in my opinion if you are playing a character that has better options for his standard action than casting a spell.

When I just judge it by the things you get at level 3, I feel like it is too powerful because for a level 3 ability, normal invisibility is pretty powerful (wizards can get it at level 3 and an AT has to wait until level 7 to be able to select it). Of course, at higher levels, it might be replaced by improved invisibility or another option. For 3rd level characters I see a lot more use for invisibility than for mage hand legerdemain, although this invisibility is limited in its use.

And looking at the level 1 spell list, I agree it misses some of the AT spells that allow trickery (in and outside battle), but in return it offers spells like guiding bolt that deal considerable damage, making the rogue a serious magical-attacker in combat. This is made even stronger because unlike the AT that has to improve its intelligence that benefits almost nothing else for the rogue (it did in 3e, but in 5e it only seems to help with investigation checks), it can be done with charisma instead (and I don't think I ever saw a low-charisma rogue in all my years of playing), so the Justicar doesn't have to sacrifice his other main abilities at all.

Although I think the above mentioned things already go above the AT, the Justicar even has another ability, Divine Sense, which is not really that powerful, but just a cherry on top of a pretty impressive cake.

Again, I am open for people to change my mind, so please tell me if my reasoning above is wrong.

I don't think I have found the class... that said, I will try and read between the lines of what others have said.

1) Intelligence vs Charisma. Some of this is going to be common - for multiclassing charisma is almost certainly better. For general purpose gaming it really depends on the campaign type and the DM; I would say ask the DM but you ARE the DM. You get to decide how important knowledge skills are, how frequent illusions are, how easily persuaded NPCs are and so on. It really depends on the campaign as to which is better. A point of note is the rogue gets proficiency in Int saves so for one you will have more concentrated ability in a save and for the other it will be more diffuse.

2) It sounds like some abilities arenot really a big deal. Guiding bolt was mentioned. 4d6 damage is nice and all for a level 1 cleric but if you are a rogue you will be minimum level 3 and you can use your action for 2d6 sneak attack plus a weapon die plus a stat modifier which is generally likely to come out ahead of guiding bolt. In pracice this is like using a class ability to give someone advantage a few imes a day when you hit someone with an attack. By the time you hit level 5 this is probably just worse than stabbing someone. Dealing damage is something the base class can do. Having another way to do damage isn't such a big leap forward.

3) Invisibility suffers somewhat the same. Its a cool ability but it gets a lot of value from making a PC unseen. If a PC is great at hiding and can remain unseen anyway then the marginal benefit is quite a bit lower. I wouldn't worry about it being available at the same time as wizards etc. get it. Look at the way of the shadow monk - silence and darkness also at level 3 where full casters would get them and it doesn't really break anything.

[meandean]

Here is the subclass: Page 1 (https://i.imgur.com/mz0Fl33.jpg), Page 2 (https://i.imgur.com/OqGpPW2.jpg)

[MrStabby]

Here is the subclass: Page 1 (https://i.imgur.com/mz0Fl33.jpg), Page 2 (https://i.imgur.com/OqGpPW2.jpg)

Oh, is it exernal? I was looking for it on GitP forums.


It seems OK. On the one hand I think it has some weak, underwhelming abilities but it is a bit front-loaded (just slightly) with the number of things it gets at level 3.

My one concern would be the spell list - it has a lot of really strong low level spells. Booming Blade, Bless, Command, Misty Step, wrathful Smite, Silence, Darkness... its a strong list and a lot of spells that stay meanngful late game. It seems to be taking the best spells from multiple spell lists.

Personaly if someone asked me I would allow it - though I would be sceptical of desires to multiclass it.

[Psyren]

Thanks for your reply Psyren. I am not sure I agree with you completely, although I am open to being convinced as my experience with 5e is limited (only 3 years against 20+ years with 3e). Below are my reasons why I am still on the fence, but it is by no means meant to disparage your reply. Just trying to find a solution everyone in my party is happy with.

I must say I mainly looked at the level 3 abilities, as the player has already declared he will not level rogue higher than that, so I have not looked at the higher level abilities in much detail. So I'm trying to judge the archetype mainly whether or not the things you get at level 3 are too overpowered.

If I were to look at the higher abilities I might be more inclined to agree with you, although the sacrifice of spell slots is usually not that bad in my opinion if you are playing a character that has better options for his standard action than casting a spell.

When I just judge it by the things you get at level 3, I feel like it is too powerful because for a level 3 ability, normal invisibility is pretty powerful (wizards can get it at level 3 and an AT has to wait until level 7 to be able to select it). Of course, at higher levels, it might be replaced by improved invisibility or another option. For 3rd level characters I see a lot more use for invisibility than for mage hand legerdemain, although this invisibility is limited in its use.

And looking at the level 1 spell list, I agree it misses some of the AT spells that allow trickery (in and outside battle), but in return it offers spells like guiding bolt that deal considerable damage, making the rogue a serious magical-attacker in combat. This is made even stronger because unlike the AT that has to improve its intelligence that benefits almost nothing else for the rogue (it did in 3e, but in 5e it only seems to help with investigation checks), it can be done with charisma instead (and I don't think I ever saw a low-charisma rogue in all my years of playing), so the Justicar doesn't have to sacrifice his other main abilities at all.

Although I think the above mentioned things already go above the AT, the Justicar even has another ability, Divine Sense, which is not really that powerful, but just a cherry on top of a pretty impressive cake.

Again, I am open for people to change my mind, so please tell me if my reasoning above is wrong.

As Stabby mentioned, Guiding Bolt is going to be weaker when you get it than a shortbow, or even better, a hand crossbow. And putting your very limited and low-level slots into blasting is a bad idea. Buffs like Bless and Silence are much stronger uses for your magic, but while you're grabbing those the AT is grabbing Silvery Barbs and Hypnotic Pattern.

SCAGtrips like Booming Blade are definitely stronger, but again, you can get those as an AT and have much better subclass features.

So while the question of whether this subclass is too strong is dependent on your group and optimization level, if you can handle an AT I'm confident you can handle a Justicar.