Mechanically, how bad would it be to make clerics Int based?

[H_H_F_F]

I'm asking about mechanics specifically, don't worry yourselves with theme or rationalization.

Obviously, different races would become superior choices, and losing perception and a more impactful save would hurt.

Other than that though... any non-obvious reasons that make this suck (or synergize) in unexpected ways?

[Sigreid]

I think it would be a mild mechanical downgrade. The reason is that whether or not you changed their save proficiency to INT, the cleric would most likely have lower Wisdom saves which I consider to be more common than Int Saves.

[RogueJK]

Obviously, different races would become superior choices

Not really, post-Tasha's. Variable racial ability scores have rendered that moot, except on the rare table that doesn't allow Tasha's and MotM.


and losing perception and a more impactful save would hurt.

That's the big downgrade. WIS is a much more impactful stat than INT.


Other than that though... any non-obvious reasons that make this suck (or synergize) in unexpected ways?

It would make the already common "Cleric dip for armor/shield proficiency" on Wizards even more obligatory.

You'd probably see more Artificer/Cleric multiclasses, which is objectively slightly stronger than Ranger/Cleric due to Artificer's unique half-caster formula. Something like Guardian Armorer 5/Cleric X would be an incredibly tanky support frontliner. Or Battle Smith 5/Cleric X would be quite the INT-SAD frontliner, which would be strong even without the companion scaling.

It would also heavily incentivize Arcane Trickster/Cleric multiclassing. Even just a 1 level dip gets the AT a big boost in armor/shield proficiency, a bunch of additional cantrips, another spell slot level, swappable 1st level Cleric spells known each day, and Cleric subclass abilities. That's a big boost, much larger than dipping Wizard 1. Some Cleric subclasses, like Arcana or Peace, would make for an even stronger dip.


And I don't even want to think about all the various Twilight Cleric 2/Wizard X and Twilight Cleric 2/Arcane Trickster X characters you'd start seeing running around. :smallwink:

[Mastikator]

IMO it's a downgrade, wisdom saves are more common, perception is the most used skill. If you're not using tasha's ability swapping rules then gnomes, hobgoblins, gith, kenku, etc become better clerics.

[Intregus182]

You'd probably see more Artificer/Cleric multiclasses, and less Ranger/Cleric.

Artificer forge cleric would be fun with this change!

[Sigreid]

Artificer forge cleric would be fun with this change!

I don't know. I think both of those get so much good stuff each level that splitting the difference wouldn't be beneficial.

[solidork]

You'd actually have Clerics be good at Religion checks.

[LudicSavant]

I'm asking about mechanics specifically, don't worry yourselves with theme or rationalization.

Obviously, different races would become superior choices, and losing perception and a more impactful save would hurt.

Other than that though... any non-obvious reasons that make this suck (or synergize) in unexpected ways?

Like you say, switching from Wis to Int would hurt straight Clerics a bit because Wisdom is a (decisively) stronger save and (arguably) has stronger skills.

Wizard/Cleric multiclassing would become more viable than it already is. Both in the traditional "Wizard that dips Cleric 1" sense, but also in the "Cleric that wants to get good Reactions like Absorb Elements and Shield on their spell list" sense.

Meanwhile, dipping Cleric would become less viable for other classes if it requires 13 Int.

[Kane0]

Not bad at all

[PhantomSoul]

Re:OP
I'll echo that it's probably a slight downgrade in principle because of skills and saving throws, but even those can vary a lot by table so it might not even be that critical. Multiclassing is probably where the most interest of the swap will be!


Not really, post-Tasha's. Variable racial ability scores have rendered that moot, except on the rare table that doesn't allow Tasha's and MotM.


Given it's the OP themself that you're quoting, seems pretty likely that Tasha's Racial Hodgepodge isn't in play. (And as for it being "rare", that very very much doesn't match my experience.)

[strangebloke]

It'd be bad for the game as a whole

makes clerics weaker (WIS is worse than INT)
makes silly multiclasses basically compulsory (really hard to justify not dipping wizard once you're past cleric 7 or 8.)
makes druids the only WIS fullcaster?

IMO, making warlocks INT-based makes more sense for lore (forbidden knowledge!) and has better mechanical implications (harder to do silly paladin/sorcerer MC things)

[stoutstien]

I mostly allow players to pick their own primary casting stat already and so far it hasn't been a big deal.

[Catullus64]

As usual, my fundamentally single-classed brain hears the premise, thinks it over, and concludes that it would be a mostly lateral move. Then of course multi-classing has to come in and screw things up.

Ignoring the balance considerations of multi-classing (usually the right call), it's fine. The Cleric's saving throws become more wide than tall, but honestly, the number of monsters and spells that force Intelligence saves has gone up significantly over the years, so that's not actually such a bad trade. I tend to prefer to have many ok saves than one or two really good ones anyway.

As for ability checks... I also think it's a rather lateral move. The value of Intelligence vs. Wisdom skills is going to vary hugely by table, to the point that I think that trying to blanket value one over the other is pointless; I'll simply submit that the Perception skill tends to get massively overvalued at a lot of tables.

[Rynjin]

In any other Edition, it'd be a slight downgrade. Wis has always been the most generally useful mental stat, making it also by default the best casting stat in terms of overall character strength.

In 5e the downgrade is more than slight, given how singularly useless Int is outside of being a casting stat. Most of the potential advantages a 3.PF character would enjoy don't apply.

More skill ranks? No. New languages known? Uh-uh. Qualifying for certain important Feats? Nope. Higher Knowledge checks? Sure. But that's it, really.

It won't make the Cleric useless by any means, but it will make them across the board weaker.

[sithlordnergal]

Honestly, I think the good and bad of this sort of change would even everything out:

On the downside, your primary stat becomes Intelligence instead of Wisdom. You'll have a lower Wisdom save, and Wisdom based skills become worse. Additionally, Druid is now the only Wisdom full caster.

On the upside, Clerics now mesh with Wizards and Artificers really, really well. Which nets them an amazing spell list. Clerics basically become the Warlock for Int dips.

[Coppercloud]

What others said. I would make it an option, not the default, and probably forbid/discourage multiclassing, but it seems fine otherwise. While probably a bit weaker overall, such a character would be an interesting and unusual pick. Likewise, a charisma-based cleric might also be a good fit for a preacher or missionary.

Actually, I have an Int-based cleric somewhere in my overflowing folder of future characters. Grave cleric (not sure about the race for now) with the skill expert feat for expertise in Religion. He would know and respect every faith or system of belief, in order to carry out the required funeral rites. I honestly don't know whether I first came up with this idea on my own or whether it was actually inspired by Sazed from Mistborn.