My DM's Invisibility

[yisopo]

My DM told me if I use Invisibility spell, I cannot be targeted by anything. I'm totally invisible: they cannot see me so they cannot attack me.

So, how do you rank Invisibility using RAW? And how do you rank my DM's Invisibility?

By the way, it would be fun to use Greater Invisibility on my DM's table. :smallbiggrin:

[Mastikator]

That's definitely not raw, you can attack a square assuming a creature is there and if they are you just get disadvantage (and if not, you still roll with disadvantage and just miss). Spells that specify "a target you can see" however are prevented by invisibility.

[Hairfish]

I'd assume your DM is going to hold you to the same rules when you're up against a creature with the Invisible condition (the effects of which are in the PHB and don't include automatically being completely undetectable). Keep the See Invisible spell at the ready.

[Jerrykhor]

Would be very unfun for martials, what can they do? If they can't even try their luck at hitting them with disadvantage, or generate advantage to cancel it out somehow, what are their options? Definitely ask your DM if they can try to grapple them, or bring a bag of flour to toss on the square they are on. Better hope your DM runs detecting invisible creatures by RAW (you should know which square they are on if they didn't hide), but i highly doubt it. IME, most DMs don't know the RAW for stealth/invisibility and just run it as how it makes sense in their head.

Ranking: F (for Find another DM)

[Selion]

My DM told me if I use Invisibility spell, I cannot be targeted by anything. I'm totally invisible: they cannot see me so they cannot attack me.

So, how do you rank Invisibility using RAW? And how do you rank my DM's Invisibility?

By the way, it would be fun to use Greater Invisibility on my DM's table. :smallbiggrin:

See you when you'll fight invisible foes :D
BTW, just to have an idea of how strong invisibility is, I haven't picked see invisibility in my group, my party is level 6-7. If something invisible comes out:
The druid or my familiar could smell the position, i could use detect thoughts to pinpoint the location (I even bought some sacks of flour just in case, but at this point it's redundant). Once we know where the invisible guy is the barbarian just would beat the *** out of him with reckless attack, thus countering disadvantage, AOE spells are also a option
I think invisibility is very good spell for scouting/infiltration/escaping, not so much in battle.
Greater invisibility may wreck encounters with unprepared enemies. It will not work everytime

[animorte]

That’s an interesting take, but it really depends on the scenario. If you’re not moving and completely silent, nothing should have a reason to want to attack you. But if you’re walking or perhaps whispered some information to an ally, they might suspect something.

Also blind sense and blind fight exist for a reason, some folks being trained and skilled in using methods other than sight to detect their competitors.

[Chronos]

RAW, Detect Thoughts won't let you pinpoint a creature (though I'll admit that I've made the same mistake). It just lets you detect their presence. So you know they're somewhere in range, but not where.

I suppose that, if they're not moving, you could eventually pinpoint them, by moving around and seeing where they move in and out of range, but that's not very practical.

[EggKookoo]

My DM told me if I use Invisibility spell, I cannot be targeted by anything. I'm totally invisible: they cannot see me so they cannot attack me.

So, how do you rank Invisibility using RAW? And how do you rank my DM's Invisibility?

By the way, it would be fun to use Greater Invisibility on my DM's table. :smallbiggrin:

Discuss with your DM the difference between being invisible and being hidden.

If you've successfully hidden (i.e. taken the Hide action), you opponent cannot effectively target you with an attack. It's unclear how the DM is meant to handle it, but it's more severe than your opponent attacking your space and having disadvantage. It slides into roleplaying a bit. Your opponent has lost track of you mentally. He could swing wildly, perhaps, but he would almost certainly miss.

Being just invisible, on the other hand, means your opponent can no longer see you but would typically still be aware of your location. If he saw you go invisible (and if he didn't, chances are you're also benefiting from being hidden), he almost certainly knows exactly where you are or has a pretty good idea of it. He has disadvantage because he can't aim his strike properly, but he's not swinging randomly.

It gets confusing because you normally can't take the hide action if your opponent can see you, so you need to obscure yourself first. That can be done by ducking behind an obstacle or taking out the lights, or by getting turned invisible. Once you can't be seen, you can attempt to hide, and if successful your opponent has functionally "lost" you from the perspective of taking actions and making attacks.

[Cheesegear]

My DM told me if I use Invisibility spell, I cannot be targeted by anything. I'm totally invisible: they cannot see me so they cannot attack me.

How does Disadvantage give creatures on attack rolls against you...If they can't even attack you?


So, how do you rank Invisibility using RAW?

Give yourself:
Advantage on your next attack roll,
All attacks against you have Disadvantage,
Always be allowed to Hide,
Lasts for one hour.

The spell's duration kind of indicates that it isn't really a combat spell. But it's very good for giving a Rogue a free Sneak Attack at the start of combat. It's a relatively minor spell that doesn't do a whole lot, unless you decide that Invisibility makes you immune to swords, even when you start knocking **** over and pulling peoples' pants down.


And how do you rank my DM's Invisibility?

'Gain immunity to direct attacks for an hour. Even if you leave footprints in wet mud. Even if seven canines are looking directly at your space.'

Does that also mean you can't even be Grappled? Holy **** I would ruin your DM.

Part of me would want to become as disruptive as possible to show how...Silly...The DM's ruling is.

Part of me would be extremely upset the second the DM put an Invisible hostile in our path. Invisible Stalkers are always Invisible - it's in the name. How the **** do you beat an Invisible Stalker when you make Invisibility so ****ing good? Anything that doesn't de-Invisible on an attack (e.g; also Greater Invisibility) becomes significantly unfair.

In short; Really, really ****ing good.

[BoutsofInsanity]

It's a bad ruling.

I understand the instinct to go there. But it's a bad ruling.

It makes invisibility too strong. WAY to strong. It also nerfs several key abilities for other classes.


Blindsight
Cunning Action
Martial Characters
Casters except if they have see invisibility
Fog Cloud
Any other effect that creates heavy concealment
Skulker
Mask of the Wild


Tis not a good ruling within the bounds of the game.

[da newt]

I'd have to agree with the others - Invisibility cannot be a blanket 'you can't be attacked' or it becomes unbalanced and this takes away from the game. Every good tactic deserves a good counter.

I will say that the idea that 'in the middle of combat everyone knows the invisible guy's location because he didn't use an action to hide' bothers me because it's so ridiculously unrealistic.

[EggKookoo]

I will say that the idea that 'in the middle of combat everyone knows the invisible guy's location because he didn't use an action to hide' bothers me because it's so ridiculously unrealistic.

And if there's something D&D isn't...

[Havrik]

Another nice thing about invisibility is that it prevents opportunity attacks. So an invisible creature can attack on one turn, hide and move away on the next, and then slip around the front line and attack unarmored casters in the back on the third turn, etc. Maybe someone could argue that the "DPR" would be better if they just stayed put and attacked all three rounds, but I do think it makes for an interesting and alarming turn of events when combatants suddenly vanish from the map entirely.

[Psyren]

I will say that the idea that 'in the middle of combat everyone knows the invisible guy's location because he didn't use an action to hide' bothers me because it's so ridiculously unrealistic.

They have other senses. Invisibility doesn't make you inaudible, and if you're not trying to be sneaky then you're making noise.

With that said, hiding wasn't an action in 3.5 (you did it as part of your move), so I can understand people being unhappy with the downgrade. It's a boost to rogues at least, or perhaps more accurately less of a nerf than for other classes.

[Leon]

Cool. Its their choice. Make use of it but prob don't exploit it or you'll find its options limited by the DM (ie suddenly many things can now see invis etc)

[OldTrees1]

My DM told me if I use Invisibility spell, I cannot be targeted by anything. I'm totally invisible: they cannot see me so they cannot attack me.

Double checking:
The DM said invisibility prevents targeting (for example with Hold Person).
You said invisibility prevents being attacked.
Those are different claims.

Are you sure the DM is saying invisibility prevents non targeting attacks? For example using a sword to blindly attacking anyone in that space?

[Phhase]

I mostly agree with your DM's ruling. The position that everyone and thier mother is Daredevil and automatically knows the position of an invisible person if they don't take a full action every turn (yeah, yeah, bonus action as a rogue) to....what, step a little quieter? Is in my opinion absolutely ridiculous. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like your DM is doing what I do, where you can declare you're attacking a square, make a roll, and automatically miss if that's not where they are (and furthermore, can't cast spells that require you to see the target). Finding where an invisible creature is can be achieved using an active perception check against a stealth check (Which can be done once per round for no action, which is just my ruling, not raw), or alternate methods like flour, see invisible, footprints in snow, etc. And even if you do know what square a creature is on, the attack still has disadvantage if you can't see them.

Invisibility's a potent weapon, for enemies and PCs both, and deserves to be treated as such. Which is hardly to say it's a one-size-fits all automatic solution to stealth, of course. Blindsight and closed doors exist, after all.

Important addendum: invisibility breaks if you make an attack roll or cast a spell. It does NOT break if you use an item (like, say, place down a bomb) or use a class feature. This can be incredibly useful.

[Cikomyr2]

Invisible doesnt mean undetectable.

If someone is invisible, id allow them a perception check to get an idea where the opponent is. Assume the check covers a mix of sound, spell, and contextual movement of shadow and dust or whatnot.

Then, if you have a general idea, you can attack the location at a disadvantage. Literally blind fire.

Same way, someone who is blinded can make a skill check to get the rough idea of the direction of an opponent.

But yhea, if someone cant make their skill check they cant attack it.

[Psyren]

Invisible doesnt mean undetectable.

If someone is invisible, id allow them a perception check to get an idea where the opponent is. Assume the check covers a mix of sound, spell, and contextual movement of shadow and dust or whatnot.

Then, if you have a general idea, you can attack the location at a disadvantage. Literally blind fire.

Same way, someone who is blinded can make a skill check to get the rough idea of the direction of an opponent.

But yhea, if someone cant make their skill check they cant attack it.

If they're not using Stealth, what's the DC for the Perception check?

[EggKookoo]

I mostly agree with your DM's ruling. The position that everyone and thier mother is Daredevil and automatically knows the position of an invisible person if they don't take a full action every turn (yeah, yeah, bonus action as a rogue) to....what, step a little quieter? Is in my opinion absolutely ridiculous.

FWIW, you don't need to re-roll your Stealth check every round. Once you succeed, you're hidden (from a particular creature) until you do something to break stealth.

[yisopo]

That's definitely not raw, you can attack a square assuming a creature is there and if they are you just get disadvantage (and if not, you still roll with disadvantage and just miss). Spells that specify "a target you can see" however are prevented by invisibility.
I know and I explain the RAW to him, but still...


I'd assume your DM is going to hold you to the same rules when you're up against a creature with the Invisible condition (the effects of which are in the PHB and don't include automatically being completely undetectable). Keep the See Invisible spell at the ready.
Thank you for the advise. ;-)


Would be very unfun for martials, what can they do? If they can't even try their luck at hitting them with disadvantage, or generate advantage to cancel it out somehow, what are their options? Definitely ask your DM if they can try to grapple them, or bring a bag of flour to toss on the square they are on. Better hope your DM runs detecting invisible creatures by RAW (you should know which square they are on if they didn't hide), but i highly doubt it.
I totally agree with you. He thought the fact the spell ends when attacking/casting is enough to balance it.


IME, most DMs don't know the RAW for stealth/invisibility and just run it as how it makes sense in their head.
Yep!


Ranking: F (for Find another DM)
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:


See you when you'll fight invisible foes :D
BTW, just to have an idea of how strong invisibility is, I haven't picked see invisibility in my group, my party is level 6-7. If something invisible comes out:
The druid or my familiar could smell the position, i could use detect thoughts to pinpoint the location (I even bought some sacks of flour just in case, but at this point it's redundant). Once we know where the invisible guy is the barbarian just would beat the *** out of him with reckless attack, thus countering disadvantage, AOE spells are also a option
I think invisibility is very good spell for scouting/infiltration/escaping, not so much in battle.
Greater invisibility may wreck encounters with unprepared enemies. It will not work everytime
Very interesting story!


Discuss with your DM the difference between being invisible and being hidden.
I will try again for sure.



Give yourself:
Advantage on your next attack roll,
All attacks against you have Disadvantage,
Always be allowed to Hide,
Lasts for one hour.

The spell's duration kind of indicates that it isn't really a combat spell. But it's very good for giving a Rogue a free Sneak Attack at the start of combat. It's a relatively minor spell that doesn't do a whole lot, unless you decide that Invisibility makes you immune to swords, even when you start knocking **** over and pulling peoples' pants down.



'Gain immunity to direct attacks for an hour. Even if you leave footprints in wet mud. Even if seven canines are looking directly at your space.'

Does that also mean you can't even be Grappled? Holy **** I would ruin your DM.
His thinking is "if the invisible condition ends when someone attack/cast, there can't be balancing problem". But he didn't think about Greater Invisibility!

Part of me would want to become [...] Part of me would be [...][/QUOTE]
We are on the same page! :-)

[yisopo]

Anyway, I will talk to him again, trying to use the Greater Invisibility argument.

[Unoriginal]

I will say that the idea that 'in the middle of combat everyone knows the invisible guy's location because he didn't use an action to hide' bothers me because it's so ridiculously unrealistic.

And someone using a magic spell to become invisible isn't?


FWIW, you don't need to re-roll your Stealth check every round. Once you succeed, you're hidden (from a particular creature) until you do something to break stealth.

Indeed. And being invisible gives you quite a few perks even if they know where you are.


Fun fact, though: invisibility does make you impossible to target by spells and effects that require the caster to actually see the target (assuming they don't have another way to "see" the target). The fact that quite a few of those spells and effects are actually beneficial/the kind an ally may want to cast on you, makes invisibility a double-edged sword in some cases. Ex: if an Unicorn ally wishes to teleport you to safety.

[RSP]

My current-campaign DM does similar with Invisibility.

I’m not a fan of making it so powerful, but he plays it both ways (our Gloomstalker in Dungeon of the Mad Mage is basically immune to attacks, barring blindsight creatures).

I definitely keep See Invis as an option.

Blindfighting as a FS is very useful, and helps keep the martials viable in such situations.

[Cikomyr2]

If they're not using Stealth, what's the DC for the Perception check?

I'd go with the table's feeling to be honest. Either we could use the caster's spell save dc (quality of invisibility is determined by power of caster), or we give a passive "stealth" stat of 10+dex+proficiency.

An active stealth check is made with advantage and can make the DC higher.

But yhea, thats homeruled. I think using the spell save DC for "basic" stealth matches other spell mechanics like Disguise Self.

[Oerlaf]

My DM told me if I use Invisibility spell, I cannot be targeted by anything. I'm totally invisible: they cannot see me so they cannot attack me.

So, how do you rank Invisibility using RAW? And how do you rank my DM's Invisibility?

By the way, it would be fun to use Greater Invisibility on my DM's table. :smallbiggrin:

If you are invisible, a creature still knows where you are unless you take the Hide action.

So by RAW invisibility is useless unless you’re a goblin or.a rogue who can Hide as a bonus action.

Moreover, invisibility per se does not grant advantage on Stealth checks but grants others disadvantage on Percetion checks.

[EggKookoo]

So by RAW invisibility is useless unless you’re a goblin or.a rogue who can Hide as a bonus action.

I wouldn't say it's useless without hiding. Advantage on attack rolls, and disadvantage on attack rolls made against you isn't nothing. And many spells have a "creature you can see" flag, making them ineffective against you.

[da newt]

"I wouldn't say it's useless without hiding. Advantage on attack rolls, and disadvantage on attack rolls made against you isn't nothing. And many spells have a "creature you can see" flag, making them ineffective against you."

If your source of invisibility is the invisibility spell then it's just ADV on your first attack roll or until you cast a spell or until the caster drops concentration, and DISADV for your attackers while you remain invisible. It's mighty helpful for scouting or setting up an ambush, but not very useful in combat unless you plan to forgo attacking and casting spells for the whole encounter.

[EggKookoo]

If your source of invisibility is the invisibility spell then it's just ADV on your first attack roll or until you cast a spell or until the caster drops concentration, and DISADV for your attackers while you remain invisible. It's mighty helpful for scouting or setting up an ambush, but not very useful in combat unless you plan to forgo attacking and casting spells for the whole encounter.

Oh, right, the spell specifically. Got it.

[RSP]

One thing I think people who play with this type of Invisibility forget, is that everyone’s turn is occurring simultaneously.

At the table, it might make sense that the PC can’t find the invisible baddie, because the baddie isn’t seen to be doing anything at this point (the old “a Turn is every character taking their own 6 seconds while every other character stands around waiting).

In-game, everything is happening at once, so the invis baddie attacking and then running away (which makes noise and may impact the environment, like leaving footprints), so it’s easier to see how the PC, who’s trying to track this baddie, can follow the sounds/footprints.

[Gignere]

This ruling will buff any class/subclass that have useful non attack and non spell actions.

Imagine a Twilight Cleric with Shadow Touched just go invisible and you basically have an untouchable temp hp battery that the DM can’t touch or target to take down.

Stack him up with potions and healing kits and he will be the most perfect healer in the game.