Rogue/druid prc?

[Rleonardh]

Here is the situation, joined a campaign that needed divine and skill roles.

Party:
Ranger 5
Fighter 5
Wizard 5
Me: Rogue 1/Druid 4 (human:able learner)

Only thing I can see that's even decent is Daggerspell thief.

Very tempted to just go rest in druid and forget prcs, as planer shapered is not allowed.

Any thoughts?

[ngilop]

I made this.. but you would have to get homebrew approved

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?233504-Deadly-Claw-of-The-Hunt-PrC-Please-Critique

[Akal Saris]

Generally divine/rogue PrC's are aimed at clerics, so there isn't much that advances druid features along with better than 4 skills per level. However, how about Uncanny Trickster from Complete Scoundrel? It's a 3-level PrC where you'll lose one level of druid progression to pick up some skill tricks and 8 skills/level for those 3 levels. It could be useful if you reach a point where you feel like you really need more skill points to fulfill your rogue capabilities.

[Anthrowhale]

For a roguish divine, you might consider Hengeyokai[Sparrow] Cloistered Cleric[Trickery, Kobold]. This allows you to start with L3 spells while Bluff, Disguise, Hide, Search, and Disable Device are class skills (with a rogue-like trapfinding as a domain ability). You lack Move Silently, but the ability turn into size fine at level 1 & 2 and the ability to employ Silence at level 3+ makes up for that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Fochlucan lyrist? You'd need a level in bard and another level in rogue (unless there's an evasion ACF for either druid or bard).

Alternatively, take a level in monk, then the rest in druid, and combine your unarmed strikes, natural attacks, and sneak attacks (with some sneak attack optimization). Your animal companion can help with flanking.

[Biggus]

Fochlucan lyrist? You'd need a level in bard and another level in rogue (unless there's an evasion ACF for either druid or bard).


If you're going this way and Dragon Magazine content is allowed, have a look at the Green Whisperer (#311 p.70). It progresses both Druid and Bard spellcasting as well as Bardic Music and Bardic Knowledge just as Fochlucan Lyrist does, so it nicely fills in the 3 levels between Druid 4/Rogue 2/Bard 1 and being able to start FL at level 11.

[Morphic tide]

Daggerspell Shaper from Complete Adventurer is probably the PRC you're remembering, and it is ridiculously close to ideal for a Rogue 1/Druid 5 to enter as it's 9/10 casting, lets you cast while TWF including delivering Touch Attacks with a melee weapon attack (which means Sneak Attack), transfers Enhancement to Claws at 2nd, gives 6+Int skill points, and continues scaling Wild Shape duration and Sneak Attack, though not Wild Shape HD and the Sneak Attack scaling is 1d6 per three levels instead of per two so it does lag behind a bit in blunt-force combat.

I strongly suggest taking the Urban Companion (https://web.archive.org/web/20160612142357/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) AFC, as it gives a body with three-quarters of your health and your BAB independently of exact class, alongside +3 to one skill from an often-applicable list. Way better than a vestigial Druid 3-5 Animal Companion.

Also, ask the DM about shop access for the sake of Cure Light Wounds wands. If that's scarce, then try to talk the Wizard into getting Craft Wand so the two of you can make them. Because Druids do not handle bulk HP restoration remotely practically, the higher-level Cure spells and lack of spontaneous access butchers this (though Summon Nature's Ally 4 and 5 are weirdly efficient thanks to Unicorns). There's also quite a few things shared between Druid and Ranger or Wizard that are good wand-fodder anyways, and wands care only that it's on your list so the Ranger can be using spells wildly beyond their current level if need be like Freedom of Movement or Nondetection, even if they don't have the required Wisdom score.

[Rebel7284]

I see no reason for you to take any prestige classes. Druid is one of the few classes in the game where adding a prestige class is often not helpful; and Able Learner means that your Rogue skills stay relevant through the game without needing to invest additional class levels.

Admittedly, the cloistered cleric idea is very nifty because Divine Metamagic -> Persistent Spell is VERY good and you get that on top of most Rogue things. However you typically need to be a Kobold to take the Kobold Domain which is incompatible with Able Learner. Regardless, this approach doesn't require prestige classes either.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook

[Anthrowhale]

However you typically need to be a Kobold to take the Kobold Domain
An exception exists: a cleric without a specific deity can choose any domains.


which is incompatible with Able Learner.

Able Learner is a great feat, but if you get the skills as class skills it's not so important. (Not relevant here, if you have 4 or fewer cross-class skills that were class skills, then you can use the retraining rules in PHBII to keep them topped up at in-class rates.)

[Rebel7284]

An exception exists: a cleric without a specific deity can choose any domains.

Looking at Player's Handbook P. 32 the way it is worded checks out, you can't worship Kurtulmak unless you're a Kobold, but can use the domain just fine. Ha! Just make sure you're not in Faerun, I recall hearing that deity-less clerics are in trouble there.



Able Learner is a great feat, but if you get the skills as class skills it's not so important. (Not relevant here, if you have 4 or fewer cross-class skills that were class skills, then you can use the retraining rules in PHBII to keep them topped up at in-class rates.)

If you're trying to keep a single skill maxed, Able Learner is overkill. However, if you're trying to fill the skill monkey role, that's a lot of skills that need to be maxed! Paying 2x skill points for them is unfeasible. Even a single classed Rogue ends up needing to pick and chose what skills to specialize in!

This seems like a fairly suspect way of using retraining rules, even if they're allowed at all (many games do not it seems.) If I recall correctly, don't the retraining rules RAW allow you to do something like Rogue 1/Ur Priest 10 if you try hard and believe in yourself? I would avoid that. :smallsmile:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Looking at Player's Handbook P. 32 the way it is worded checks out, you can't worship Kurtulmak unless you're a Kobold, but can use the domain just fine. Ha! Just make sure you're not in Faerun, I recall hearing that deity-less clerics are in trouble there.Only if you die, in which case, Ao demands that anyone not kowtowing to a trumped-up lantern archon with delusions of grandeur be used as mortar in the Wall of the Faithless.

But if you're immortal, you can basically give him the Trudeau salute. But either find a way to gain lightning immunity or avoid standing on any tall hills, since the other trumped-up lantern archons will be furious.

[Anthrowhale]

Just make sure you're not in Faerun, I recall hearing that deity-less clerics are in trouble there.
Yeah, there you might just be a Kobold. It's not terrible: small size+30' move+darkvision+search bonus+no wis penalty. And, the slight build variant (http://web.archive.org/web/20210515093955/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) is helpful as well.


If you're trying to keep a single skill maxed, Able Learner is overkill. However, if you're trying to fill the skill monkey role, that's a lot of skills that need to be maxed! Paying 2x skill points for them is unfeasible. Even a single classed Rogue ends up needing to pick and chose what skills to specialize in!

Agreed---was thinking the OP was just looking at scouting & trapmastering as a role (i.e. Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device).


This seems like a fairly suspect way of using retraining rules, even if they're allowed at all (many games do not it seems.)

Yeah, there may be many games where PHBII isn't in play. If it is, the rules are explicit about allowing this.


If I recall correctly, don't the retraining rules RAW allow you to do something like Rogue 1/Ur Priest 10 if you try hard and believe in yourself? I would avoid that. :smallsmile:
For Rogue 1/Ur-Priest 10, you need to use the Rebuilding rather than the Retraining rules. Rebuilding is more of a DM allowance while Retraining is default-available.

[Particle_Man]

A bit out there but if you are NE you might look at assassin after at least five levels of druid. Hanging around as a small or medium animal might give you time to set up the three rounds for death attack without being noticed as a threat. In the right circumstances woodland stride and trackless step would also help you get away quickly and without being tracked. But it would stop you Druidic spell progression.

Wait maybe Black Flame Zealot would be better? More spell progression (though still not full) and you could be LN, CN or N, but your religion would be more restricted. Also you would somehow need to get knowledge religion as a class skill.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A bit out there but if you are NE you might look at assassin after at least five levels of druid. Hanging around as a small or medium animal might give you time to set up the three rounds for death attack without being noticed as a threat.You are now the Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog.

[Gruftzwerg]

Double Fleshraker combo maybe?
As 4th lvl druid you can already have it as animal companion and on your next druid lvl you can become one yourself.

Feats for Fleshraker: (either retrain em if the DM allows it or just take em as bonus feats)
Martial Study: Clinging Shadow Strike
Martial Stance: Island of Blades - You and allies flank all adjacent foes.

And as feat suggestion for yourself:
Martial Study: either "Cloak of Deception" (Gr. Invisibility for 1 turn) or "Shadow Jaunt" (50ft teleport)
Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance

This way you could build for some Sneak Attack use without much sacrifice.

[Rleonardh]

Yah the dip of rogue at 1st level is to fill the scout/trap finder role for party.
Phb 2 isn't in play unfortunately.

Lucky I was able to convince the dm to allow,
15/14/13/12/10/8 than roll 3d6 as bonus to add where you want.


Str 10
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 18 so 4+int+1 so 9 skill points per level (druid)
Wis 18 (19) with level 4
Cha 12

Feats:
Able learner
Dark stalker
Natural bond

Also of note
Newish players
Ranger is pure ranged
Fighter is falchion user
Experienced players
Wizard was controller type
Rogue/druid (me), this way additional Frontline by companion, battle controller freeing up wizard for different spells now. Yep got the wand of cure light wounds.
Trying to get dm to let us buy a 10 charged one for the ranger.

[ShurikVch]

If Dragon Magazine content is allowed, then either rebuild your Rogue level into Scout (Complete Adventurer), or just dip one level in Scout - and then take Swift Avenger feat (Dragon #357) - this way you would be able to progress your Skirmish with Druid levels (and your single Scout level would also progress times/day of Wild Shape)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If Dragon Magazine content is allowed, then either rebuild your Rogue level into Scout (Complete Adventurer), or just dip one level in Scout - and then take Swift Avenger feat (Dragon #357) - this way you would be able to progress your Skirmish with Druid levels (and your single Scout level would also progress times/day of Wild Shape)Plus, it's not hard for a druid to get pounce, which works very well with skirmish.

[Particle_Man]

Another out there option: stick with druid but take leadership to get a skilled cohort like a rogue or scout. Depends if your dm is leadership friendly or not though.

[Rleonardh]

Well after all this, I'm sticking with rogue 1/druid x build.
The party really needed extra frontline/skill/healing and with all the druid can provide from companion and summoning plus everything else it fits what's needed for this group.

You guys really open my eyes on other things to look at, truly thank you.

Is it nuts that my idea of slight optimized party would be(not doing prcs to show simple here)??

Cleric 5/barbarian 1/cleric x
Druid x
Rogue 1/druid x
Sorcerer x
5th: artificer x

[AnonJr]

Is it nuts that my idea of slight optimized party would be(not doing prcs to show simple here)??

Cleric 5/barbarian 1/cleric x
Druid x
Rogue 1/druid x
Sorcerer x
5th: artificer x

Many would argue that is more than "slightly optimized"... Partly it would depend on builds, as there's many ways to build a Druid for a particular task/role. Same for Artificer. All the ones you listed also require some skill with the optimization - a friend of mine can't manage an Artificer quite like my sister can. But she always plays either an Artificer or Psion - so while her range isn't as broad, she can get far more out of either class. (for that matter, a well-built Psion could stand in for your Sorcerer too)

[Anthrowhale]

Is it nuts that my idea of slight optimized party would be(not doing prcs to show simple here)??

Cleric 5/barbarian 1/cleric x
Druid x
Rogue 1/druid x
Sorcerer x
5th: artificer x
The level of Barbarian seems unappealing and the Sorcerer access to the Wizard list implies a strong reliance on scrolls for utility spells.

In my experience, Druid heavy parties are very solid in the beginning levels since they have so many ACs (+entangle). Non-druids can get in on that action to some extent using the Wild Cohort feat but a Druid can do that as well, implying a party of 4 Druids can have 8 (!) frontliners at level 1.

There are three drawbacks I'm aware of:

There are more creatures in the party, so magic items / buffs are more spread out. This matters more at higher levels since you don't have magic items at the beginning.
It's difficult to win the stealth game with a druid-heavy party since you have so many creatures not specialized in stealth. There are things that a smaller party with more pervasive stealth capabilities can do which are unavailable.
Cross-class buffing is quite appealing since multiple different spell lists are complementary.


So my inclination is more like:

Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric[Spontaneous Transformation,Spell] n // A frontliner with stealth and the party face. DMM[Persist] buffs. With a few levels of Shadowbane Stalker can use Sacred Outlaw for sneak attack.
Halfling Druid (Halfling Substitution level) n //Stealthy Scout + access Druid list. Frontliner AC.
Cloistered Cleric[Trickery, Kobold] n // Trap finder & Striker at later levels using Sense Weakness + Surge of Fortune.
Wizard n //Wizard spell list. Use Flexible Mind to pick up Hide & Move Silently and Uncanny Forethought for spontaneous spell access.

That's an all-stealth party with undelayed access to the big 3 spell lists and many skills covering various roles.