5e Stolen Moment Rogue Archetype

[BerzerkerUnit]

Aloha friends, pls have a look at this most recent offering. All feedback is welcome! The Krynn Dynasty thing is pure fluff, but I did conceive of this as a sort of companion to the echo knight fighter.


Rogue Archetype: Stolen Moment
As a rogue of the Stolen Moment you have trained tirelessly to subvert the objectives of the Krynn Dynasty. Your masters are privy to knowledge of some awful future where all time lines converge in tragedy. They have cultivated a technique designed to empower their agents to thwart this awful destiny, hoping that numerous small alterations to the past can create enough deviations that the dread ending for the empire they've foreseen can be avoided.
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Paradox
Many of the features provided by this subclass invoke a Paradox resulting from your manipulation of the time stream. A Paradox affliction lasts for 1 minute. While Paradoxical you cannot use other features that would afflict you with Paradox. At the end of the minute, if you have not resolved the Paradox in the manner described by the feature, reality violently warps to merge the frayed edges of the timelines you've created and you suffer force damage equal to your sneak attack dice. The damage you take from this effect cannot be reduced in any way.

Save Time
Beginning at 3rd level you learn to decouple the relationship between your personal time and space, halting all changes to your relative position. At the end of your turn or when you are subjected to an effect that would move you, such as a Thunderwave spell or falling down a cliff, you can use your reaction to become Paralyzed until the end of your next turn. While paralyzed in this way you have resistance to slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning damage and cannot be moved from your space or knocked prone. If you are grappling a target when you become Paralyzed in this way, strength based efforts to end your grapple fail and dexterity based efforts have an Escape DC of 8 + your Constitution modifier + your Proficiency bonus.
Once you use this feature you are afflicted by Paradox for 1 minute. You can resolve this Paradox by taking the Dash action or using your Cunning Action to Dash and moving your full current speed.

Temporal Thrust
At 3rd level, you also master the technique intended to insure the creation of deviant timelines. When another creature you can see within 30 feet starts its turn you can use your reaction to summon a version of yourself from the near future. This future version of you appears up to 10 feet away from the target creature and you can attack the target as if you were in its space. This future version and all of its equipment disappears immediately after the attack hits or misses. Your future self is shrouded in temporal energies, shifting in an out of existence for the fraction of a second it's present. It is immune to all damage and conditions and cannot be communicated with or have its thoughts read.
Once you use this feature you are afflicted by Paradox for 1 minute. You can resolve this Paradox by Readying an action to make an attack using the normal rules for readying an action, however, when the reaction is triggered you disappear for the duration of the attack and reappear immediately in your space closing the temporal loop.

Spend Time
At 9th level your ability to decouple your own relative timeline from the broader tapestry of fate expands. As a bonus action you can reflect on the present and experience several minutes within seconds. This brief reprieve can have one of the following effects:
- You can make a Perception or Investigation check and have advantage on this check.
- You can spend a hit die, adding your Constitution modifier and proficiency bonus to the result.
- You can end one spell or effect with a duration of 1 minute or less.
Once you use this feature you are afflicted by Paradox for 1 minute. You can end resolve this Paradox by using your Save Time feature. When used in this way Save Time does not invoke its normal Paradox.

Steal Life
Also at 9th level, when you reduce a creature to 0 hit points you can steal 1d10 years of its lifespan reducing your current age by a life amount to a limit of adolescence for your race.

Trigger Paradox Explosion
Beginning at 13th level you learn to violently trigger your Paradox prematurely causing its violent warping to affect your surroundings causing objects and creatures to fan out in a kaleidoscope of temporal duplicates that will violently collapse into themselves. As a bonus action you can end your Paradox causing creatures, objects, and structures within 20 feet to suffer the force damage as well. Creatures other than you can reduce this damage by half with an Intelligence save equal to 8 + your Constitution modifier + your Proficiency bonus.

Stitch in Time
Beginning at 17th level your ability to buck causal chains manifests in a staggering ability to excise undesirable outcomes. When a creature you can see within 30 feet makes an attack, casts a spell, or takes another action such as activating a magic item or interacting with an object, you can use your Reaction to snip the moment and tether the immediate future to the tatters of the past. This results in the action having been taken, but all outcomes of the triggering action are ignored. For example, if an enemy wizard casts fireball, you could use your reaction to snip the result causing the spell to have been cast, but no damage would be dealt and nothing would be lit aflame, alternatively, if they drank a healing potion, the potion would be drunk, but no healing would be conferred.
Once you have used this feature you are afflicted by Paradox for 1 minute. You can resolve this Paradox by taking no actions or bonus actions during one of your turns.

[Yakk]

Cute mechanic. I might drop the word "curse"; "you experience a paradox until you X".

And a name for the end of the paradox -- say "resolves". Like, "you can resolve the paradox by X". And "if you don't resolve a paradox within a minute, it resolves itself by dealing your sneak attack damage as force damage to you; this damage cannot be reduced in any way."

That lets you have things happen when a paradox resolves.

...

Temporal Thrust might be a bit strong. It is an extra turn every 2nd reaction you spend, which is a 50% damage boost. Also, its spotlight level is a bit high. Also, "starts its turn" is metagamey; reactions should generally be to things happening, not purely mechanical stuff, when possible. (Yes, I know, legendary actions violate this)

...

What if it was in reaction to an attack, and there is a 50-50 chance the attack is redirected to your temporal echo? And if it is redirected... you take the damage when the paradox resolves. That would be fun.

Still, adding 50%+ damage output is too strong. Hurm.

...

Stitch in Time is nearly at-will; you trade your (next) action for the action of someone else. This being done repeatedly will get boring. What more, you can instead trade it for 9d6 self-damage by repeatedly paradox-bombing.

While I do understand your reluctance, Stitch in Time looks like a 1/day kind of effect.

Steal Life I'd limit to the start of adulthood. For various reasons, both mechanical and squick.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Thanks so much for your feedback!


Cute mechanic. I might drop the word "curse"; "you experience a paradox until you X".

And a name for the end of the paradox -- say "resolves". Like, "you can resolve the paradox by X". And "if you don't resolve a paradox within a minute, it resolves itself by dealing your sneak attack damage as force damage to you; this damage cannot be reduced in any way."

That lets you have things happen when a paradox resolves.



This is excellent, thank you so much!


Temporal Thrust might be a bit strong. It is an extra turn every 2nd reaction you spend, which is a 50% damage boost. Also, its spotlight level is a bit high. Also, "starts its turn" is metagamey; reactions should generally be to things happening, not purely mechanical stuff, when possible. (Yes, I know, legendary actions violate this)



Couple things, I don't think "Starts its turn" is bad in this case because of what the power is supposed to represent, a version of you from the future trying to come back in time to change the past (by hopefully killing the person before they do a bad thing). I consider the start of a creatures turn to be when they are "prepared to act" and didn't want the attack to have any FILO issues interrupting attacks or spell casting etc. I'm also pretty confident it isn't too strong because it only nets you 1 extra attack per combat, It uses a reaction and costs an action and reaction to recover.

Resolving the Paradox has some tactical applications too, like say you ready an action to attack if Creature A comes within reach, which may be a soft control on Creature A, but if creature A comes within reach and triggers the attack, you instead resolve the paradox and disappear momentarily, a generous DM might allow this to inflict disadvantage on a charge attack (since a charging creature is assumed to be attacking as soon as they are within their reach) or outright miss. You could also ready the attack for when an ally is about to drop a fireball on you, causing you to wink out as the spell explodes, maybe granting advantage on the save or treating you as out of the AOE altogether.


What if it was in reaction to an attack, and there is a 50-50 chance the attack is redirected to your temporal echo? And if it is redirected... you take the damage when the paradox resolves. That would be fun.

Still, adding 50%+ damage output is too strong. Hurm.



That 50% comment makes me think there's a misunderstanding about the action economy at play. Also, as described I think that feature competes unfavorably with uncanny dodge.


Stitch in Time is nearly at-will; you trade your (next) action for the action of someone else. This being done repeatedly will get boring. What more, you can instead trade it for 9d6 self-damage by repeatedly paradox-bombing.

While I do understand your reluctance, Stitch in Time looks like a 1/day kind of effect.

Steal Life I'd limit to the start of adulthood. For various reasons, both mechanical and squick.

First, I tried to match Steal Life to the standard set by Transmutation Wizard stone @ 14, which I thought said "minimum 13 years" but that doesn't make sense for every race. I don't personally have an issue with the concept of adventuring teens in settings without mandated public education through young adulthood. If the age limit on the magic stone has changed, I'll roll it up to observe norms.

RE: Stitch in Time
I should clarify "Action" I don't want it to affect multiple attacks, but I do want it to wipe things like casting spells and pushing buttons or closing doors... I'll revisit the language. I definitely want it worded to prevent unnecessary rolling of dice and to prevent hemming an hawing about when to use it or if it interrupts things.

Beyond that I think you're overestimating the viability of Stitch in Time in combat. No question it's strong as a L17 capstone. The Rogue 20 cap sucks and they deserve a reward for slogging through levels 4-9 so I'm not shy about giving them a powerful feature. I can see scenarios where it would be amazing, but that 30 ft range limit, needing to see the target, and any time there are multiple foes are all obstacles to abuse. I see it probably having about the same impact as Counterspell or Shield most of the time, and in a few instances just causing the DM's face to contort with rage when you nope something that's not a spell. That isn't a goal, just something I know happens with counterspell.

That said, you can't use any Paradoxical features except Steal Life and Trigger Paradox Explosion while paradoxical. In a combat with more than 1 creature, dedicating your reaction to nerfing one creature while also eating about 22% of your own hp damage with an indiscriminate 20ft radius sphere of force each round to make sure you can do it the following round doesn't look sustainable to me. Particularly since it will force hard positioning decisions on your allies because you go off like a bomb every time you recover it.

It is a strong choice, but consider as a rogue you're expected to be dealing a fair amount of damage for the party and if you are instead focusing on defense and blowing yourself up every round while hanging out in melee (likely making it difficult for other melee combatants to engage), that's an immensely high risk strategy.

[Yakk]

Couple things, I don't think "Starts its turn" is bad in this case because of what the power is supposed to represent, a version of you from the future trying to come back in time to change the past (by hopefully killing the person before they do a bad thing). I consider the start of a creatures turn to be when they are "prepared to act" and didn't want the attack to have any FILO issues interrupting attacks or spell casting etc. I'm also pretty confident it isn't too strong because it only nets you 1 extra attack per combat, It uses a reaction and costs an action and reaction to recover.
Ah, I see it now; you have to use your ready action, and then expend the reaction. So it moves that attack up.

In effect, it is a restricted action surge. So still quite strong.

Resolving the Paradox has some tactical applications too, like say you ready an action to attack if Creature A comes within reach, which may be a soft control on Creature A, but if creature A comes within reach and triggers the attack, you instead resolve the paradox and disappear momentarily, a generous DM might allow this to inflict disadvantage on a charge attack (since a charging creature is assumed to be attacking as soon as they are within their reach) or outright miss. You could also ready the attack for when an ally is about to drop a fireball on you, causing you to wink out as the spell explodes, maybe granting advantage on the save or treating you as out of the AOE altogether.
That is a fun idea we might want to codify. What if resolving involves taking an action that makes you disappear immediately? Then you reappear in the same spot (or heck, how about anywhere within 30' of the spot) at the start of your next turn.

The action economy remains very similar, but the resolution could be insanely more fun, and not just something you always want to put off until the combat ends.

That 50% comment makes me think there's a misunderstanding about the action economy at play. Also, as described I think that feature competes unfavorably with uncanny dodge.
I had messed up the action economy.

It works on people who aren't you. So you redirect damage 50% of the time to a future version of you, and you get an attack. Then you suffer that damage when you resolve the paradox.

As I'm getting an Umbrella academy vibe here, the idea of a future version of you arriving and taking a blow meant for yourself or an ally is really on-flavour.


First, I tried to match Steal Life to the standard set by Transmutation Wizard stone @ 14, which I thought said "minimum 13 years" but that doesn't make sense for every race. I don't personally have an issue with the concept of adventuring teens in settings without mandated public education through young adulthood. If the age limit on the magic stone has changed, I'll roll it up to observe norms.
I wouldn't have made it "down to 13" for the Transmutation Wizard myself, for both squick and practical purposes.

For practical purposes, 13 year olds are physically weaker and smaller than adults than the same person at 21.

The squick reason is also sufficient in my mind. The old "this person isn't really a child, not mentally" squick to be exact.


RE: Stitch in Time
I should clarify "Action" I don't want it to affect multiple attacks, but I do want it to wipe things like casting spells and pushing buttons or closing doors... I'll revisit the language. I definitely want it worded to prevent unnecessary rolling of dice and to prevent hemming an hawing about when to use it or if it interrupts things.

Beyond that I think you're overestimating the viability of Stitch in Time in combat. No question it's strong as a L17 capstone. The Rogue 20 cap sucks and they deserve a reward for slogging through levels 4-9 so I'm not shy about giving them a powerful feature. I can see scenarios where it would be amazing, but that 30 ft range limit, needing to see the target, and any time there are multiple foes are all obstacles to abuse. I see it probably having about the same impact as Counterspell or Shield most of the time, and in a few instances just causing the DM's face to contort with rage when you nope something that's not a spell. That isn't a goal, just something I know happens with counterspell.

That said, you can't use any Paradoxical features except Steal Life and Trigger Paradox Explosion while paradoxical. In a combat with more than 1 creature, dedicating your reaction to nerfing one creature while also eating about 22% of your own hp damage with an indiscriminate 20ft radius sphere of force each round to make sure you can do it the following round doesn't look sustainable to me. Particularly since it will force hard positioning decisions on your allies because you go off like a bomb every time you recover it.

It is a strong choice, but consider as a rogue you're expected to be dealing a fair amount of damage for the party and if you are instead focusing on defense and blowing yourself up every round while hanging out in melee (likely making it difficult for other melee combatants to engage), that's an immensely high risk strategy.
I mean, that is a great deal. Action+Bonus action to deal 10d6 AOE plus 10d6 self damage while completely shutting down a foe's actions, every round?

Making it cover all actions but only 1 attack will be difficult to word. Yes, if it is 1 attack, it becomes a bad idea to use on attacks.

I'm also aware it won't break every encounter. Just every encounter with a foe whose action matters significantly more than the Rogue's.

(I'm also puzzled by the 4-7 comment. Level 5 rogue is amazing.)

[BerzerkerUnit]

Ah, I see it now; you have to use your ready action, and then expend the reaction. So it moves that attack up.

In effect, it is a restricted action surge. So still quite strong.

That is a fun idea we might want to codify. What if resolving involves taking an action that makes you disappear immediately? Then you reappear in the same spot (or heck, how about anywhere within 30' of the spot) at the start of your next turn.

The action economy remains very similar, but the resolution could be insanely more fun, and not just something you always want to put off until the combat ends.

I had considered this, but I think it put it way over the top in power. Attack, reaction attack, invulnerability for a round. You're losing maybe 20% damage (unless you can reliably take reaction attacks) and getting a full round of invulnerability after... I thought the readied action timing offered some potential without being such an absolute defense.


It works on people who aren't you. So you redirect damage 50% of the time to a future version of you, and you get an attack. Then you suffer that damage when you resolve the paradox.

As I'm getting an Umbrella academy vibe here, the idea of a future version of you arriving and taking a blow meant for yourself or an ally is really on-flavour.

I don't disagree, but I didn't want to steer too far afield of the rogue's role in combat. This kind of off tanking feels more in line with what the Echoknight does as an infinitely repeatable range extender and 1hp damage sink for enemy attacks. I'm also not too sure about a random mechanic, I'd think an either or would work better, either attack or absorb attack.

In general I do really like the idea of eating the damage but having it deferred, I just think it would work better for a different class (like Temporally Unstuck Barbarian or something).



I mean, that is a great deal. Action+Bonus action to deal 10d6 AOE plus 10d6 self damage while completely shutting down a foe's actions, every round?

Making it cover all actions but only 1 attack will be difficult to word. Yes, if it is 1 attack, it becomes a bad idea to use on attacks.

I'm also aware it won't break every encounter. Just every encounter with a foe whose action matters significantly more than the Rogue's.

(I'm also puzzled by the 4-7 comment. Level 5 rogue is amazing.)

RE: feature
I believe the overwhelming majority of encounters at that level will either involve creatures with multiple actions (legendary, numerous reactions etc), or several creatures. I think my main take away from your concession here is that it isn't so good it makes doing anything else bad. Like I said upthread, you're dealing ~22% of your own hp every time you trigger. That's probably an unsustainable amount of pressure on your healer (since as stated, the target probably has other ways of damaging the party) And it's 10d6 to you, maybe 5d6 to them and you're missing the chance to crit, add your weapon damage and any riders it may have (poison isn't always useless). Great but niche is fine with me. I did take a stab at rewording, pls see the original post. Added the paradox update too.

RE: rogue leveling
I never liked that there's a 6 level gap between your first subclass feature and next, it feels like a slog. There are okay features in between, but 3 of them are ASIs, which are good, but unless there are particular feats you want, mechanically boring, like almost dead level boring, but tha'ts me.