Trying to optimize a Wizard/Fighter build.

[Jmarsh56]

I always find myself wanting to play a gish type character and I had a funny idea the other day, why not just... build my own instead of trying to find a way to like EK or Bladesinger. I am sorry, I'm just not a huge fan of either.

Got my thinking... Start with Fighter for Con ST's, all armour & weapons, more HP at first level. Then dip into wizard at 2nd level to pick up your cantrips and basic spells. Congrats you're already as good a spellcaster (if not better with more spells known and more cantrips) as the EK is you just don't have Action Surge yet. Then 3rd level go into War Wizard to shore up a defensive turn to turn reaction.

Back to fighter. I'm thinking 4th & 5th take you to Battle Master & unlock your potential with the melee cantrips some. Yes Extra Attack is a little delayed, but you can dual wield until 7th level when you actually unlock it and you have access to the melee cantrips (whichever you like) for when the situation calls for it.

From 7th level you're fully online. I think just on a strict comparison to EK this is an improvement, no you may not have your 2nd level spells just yet. But what Battle Master offers is much juicier if you ask me, and you can freely go back and forth between Wizard for more spells or Fighter for more fightering as you see fit from this point. You get a pretty significant boost from a short rest but still have a fair few spells to support yourself and the party with over the course of the day.


Maybe I am way off on this and its strictly worse in every way compared to the two subclasses I am attempting to emulate, but I think it has merit. Is there anyone who is willing to offer some advice on how to improve what I am currently thinking? Or is this one better left sent out to pasture?

[strangebloke]

Yeah this is a very solid build, BM and WW are both insanely frontloaded and thus you'll be doing pretty okay from level 7 onwards.

The main downside is that you're going to take a while to get either extra attack or 3rd level spells. You won't be able to get one until level 7 and won't be able to get both until 10 at the earliest. So this build will be fine but I'd hesitate to say that its strictly better than EK.

There's a lot you can do with BM but its really hard to argue against ambush. You can use it on initiative!

[Skrum]

I question how much the 3rd fighter level is really doing for you. You'll be greatly slowing your spell progression for maneuvers, which don't scale well.

If you're really attached, I'd go fighter 1 wizard 5 fighter +2 wizard rest. Heavy Armor caster is probably worth delaying 3rds by a level, and getting action surge at 7th is cool because now you can drop two fireballs in a turn. Finish up your fighter progression at 8th and then you'll get 4ths at 10th overall.

What do you want the maneuvers for? I don't see a ton of synergy between them and spells. And I think you're going to be disappointed by your melee performance with just a single attack and maneuvers. After all, you're not going to be 3rd level any more.

[claypigeons]

Fighter2/wizard18 is a build that has existed since day one, and has only gotten better since.

Fighter1/wizard1/fighter2/wizard the rest if you start at level 1.

If you want to use attacks as a wizard, Bladesinger for their improved extra attack. Trade one attack for a cantrip, make that cantrip booming blade or green flame blade. Attack twice anyway and deal extra cantrip damage.

Congrats, you've beaten eldritch knight at their own game.

[Rukelnikov]

Well, the build will probably do fine, however I'm unsure under what metric do you think its better than EK or BS, or at which levels.

IMO before lvl 8, that character is hardly a gish, probably just a tankier Battlemaster. With 3 cantrips and 4 1st lvl slots, you won't be spending actions in combat to cast spells often, once you get a couple more slots and 2nd lvl spells, which include a couple bonus action ones, you'll probably start using them a bit more in combat than just resources to increase durability.

IMO Ftr1/Bladesinger6/Ftr2(or 3 if you really want the maneuvers)/Bladesinger X is gonna feel gishier a a couple levels before, and past 7 will likely severely outperform OP buils via access to higher level spells and slots.

The thing with fighter is that, outside a few exceptions in the subclasses, from 5 to 11 its not offering anything hard to get, you get extra ASIs which are always nice, but no outstanding feature. So, if you are not gonna go all the way to Ftr11, their extra attack is as good as anyone elses, and worse than Bladesingers, so what is battlemaster actually bringing to the table past lvl 3?

Extra maneuvers? Its cool, but the first 3 are likely the most important ones, you can even get some extra ones with feats or fighting style if you really wnat more.
Bigger dice? again, its cool, but its not an enabling feature, you'll still be doing the same as before with marginally better improvements.

I think this would be much less of a problem if there was some rule for getting something upon repeated features, so you could get some compensation for the redundant extra attack at 5.


Fighter2/wizard18 is a build that has existed since day one, and has only gotten better since.

Fighter1/wizard1/fighter2/wizard the rest if you start at level 1.

If you want to use attacks as a wizard, Bladesinger for their improved extra attack. Trade one attack for a cantrip, make that cantrip booming blade or green flame blade. Attack twice anyway and deal extra cantrip damage.

Congrats, you've beaten eldritch knight at their own game.

That's been the Bladesinger's game for the past 30 years...

[Segev]

If you're going more fighter than wizard, might I recommend Fiend Warlock instead of Wizard? Same rate of spell progression, but you get your spells back at every short rest, letting you gish them more readily. Fiend Patron gets you bonus hp for killing things, letting you tank a little better on the front lines. If you're not getting above fifth level spells, the spell level progression is the same as for wizard.

If you're leaning more heavily into wizard, consider Eldritch Knight instead of Battlemaster: you slow your spell slot progression less, and get a few more spells known.

Fighter 2/Bladesinger 6 is another build that is fully "on line" at level eight, and if you're running wizard will get you lots of magic while being almost all the fighter you need. Fighter 3 on that build either delays extra attack or comes late; you don't want to go to fighter 5 as it is redundant, but this is the one I would go Battlemaster with with that third fighter level, if I really wanted a couple maneuvers.

[animorte]

I might have missed this, but are you strictly locked into the idea of Fighter/Wizard as your gish build? Not that anything is wrong with it (you have very good feedback here already), but you can achieve a similar gish build in many different ways.

[Jmarsh56]

If you're going more fighter than wizard, might I recommend Fiend Warlock instead of Wizard? Same rate of spell progression, but you get your spells back at every short rest, letting you gish them more readily. Fiend Patron gets you bonus hp for killing things, letting you tank a little better on the front lines. If you're not getting above fifth level spells, the spell level progression is the same as for wizard.

If you're leaning more heavily into wizard, consider Eldritch Knight instead of Battlemaster: you slow your spell slot progression less, and get a few more spells known.

Fighter 2/Bladesinger 6 is another build that is fully "on line" at level eight, and if you're running wizard will get you lots of magic while being almost all the fighter you need. Fighter 3 on that build either delays extra attack or comes late; you don't want to go to fighter 5 as it is redundant, but this is the one I would go Battlemaster with with that third fighter level, if I really wanted a couple maneuvers.

Hadn't considered fiend Warlock at all, but I'm not mad at it. For whatever reason I'd not considered Blade Singer Battle Master either.

Battle Master is specifically what I want from fighter, not a fan of EK really and the combo of maneuvers and spells is really what I'm after.

I'm not especially invested in higher level magic per se. Especially as most of our games never get that high so I don't even factor it in to my builds. If I can't do it by 12th level it is a nonfactor to me.

[XmonkTad]

I'm not especially invested in higher level magic per se. Especially as most of our games never get that high so I don't even factor it in to my builds. If I can't do it by 12th level it is a nonfactor to me.

Are there any particular spells you envision yourself using a lot? Are you going more for blade-trips, long acting buffs, crowd control, or big damage? How much are you pumping INT vs just keeping it at 13?

[Bobthewizard]

For me, the main benefits of this build over an EK is getting to pick spells that aren't abjuration/evocation. I love the idea of fog cloud with the blind fighting style. You can have that, shield, and an owl familiar. Then maybe something like disguise self for social encounters and a couple more rituals for some out of combat utility. You can pick up misty step and invisibility at wizard 3, or a control spell like web, suggestion, or levitate.