Is at-will Hex too strong?

[Greywander]

I've had my witch class basically finished for a while now, so I thought I'd do some final edits to it before I post it. One of the changes I'm considering is giving at-will Hex. The problem is that the design space of full casters is super busy; every level from 3rd through 17th you're either getting a higher spell level, an ASI, or a subclass feature. This means any other class features are generally going to come in the first three or last three levels. At-will Hex at 18th level or later seems pretty weak, to be honest, but if I put it somewhere in the first three levels then suddenly it's a potential multiclass hazard. Even if it's not too strong for the witch, a sneaky warlock could dip in to grab it.

So, is at-will Hex too strong? I'm actually inclined to say "no". It doesn't require an attack roll or saving throw, so it just works, but it does use concentration, and it's definitely not the strongest concentration spell around. It's definitely better on someone like a warlock who gets multiple attacks, but even so I feel like there's better spells to concentrate on. It would be a fantastic backup option if you're out of pact magic slots, but that's really only raising your floor, not your ceiling (i.e. it's not making you stronger, it's only making you less weak).

My gut says that gating it behind a multi-level dip should be fine. And honestly, even if warlocks got at-will Hex natively, I'm not sure it would cause that many problems. It already seems intentional that you can concentrate on Hex literally all day, and still get that pact magic slot back after your first short rest; the only major setback is that it takes up your only concentration slot. Even if it's at-will, you still wouldn't be able to concentrate on another spell, so not much would actually change (except you could "drop" Hex for another concentration spell without needing to spend a slot recasting it later).

What do you think?

[Jerrykhor]

Its hard to say without looking at the Witch homebrew as a whole, but I'm going to be quite confident that it should be a 'No, its not too strong.' In fact its quite weak. Also, level 18 Wizard can choose a level 1 spell to cast at will, so yeah.

I'd rather see QoL improvements to Hex at higher levels, things like:

- No concentration required
- Free up action economy (apply Hex on first hit)
- Increase number of targets Hexed
- Transfer Hex without the requirement of current target dropping to 0 hp.
- More debuffs (disadvantage on attack rolls, saving throws etc.)

All of these should be more interesting than simply allowing Hex to be infinitely spammable.

[LudicSavant]

Compared to a Warlock who just invests in ironclad Concentration and uses the all-day upcast version, the main difference I foresee will be that you can swap what skill check it nerfs at-will, thus basically letting you give any contested check a Disadvantage on-demand (which is about as valuable as giving any contested check Advantage-on-demand). The second biggest difference I foresee will be that there will be less penalty for being dispelled or the like.

As for whether it'll be too strong, it's difficult to say without knowing the rest of the class. It is rare that any one feature is overpowered all on its own.

[Jerrykhor]

Basically at will Hex alone isn't too strong, unless Witch has features that benefit from the casting of Hex itself. Think Abjuration Ward for Wizards.

[Greywander]

Whenever I post the witch class in the Homebrew forum, I'll drop a link here (if I rememeber to). But I'm not especially worried about the witch, my main concern was warlocks (or anyone else) dipping for it.

It definitely does have a few advantages, as you say. Being able to change which ability checks are debuffed, being able to move it without killing the current target, and being able to cast a different concentration spell without needing to recast Hex afterwards are all nice benefits. But it doesn't strike me as overpowered.


I'd rather see QoL improvements to Hex at higher levels, things like:

- No concentration required
- Free up action economy (apply Hex on first hit)
- Increase number of targets Hexed
- Transfer Hex without the requirement of current target dropping to 0 hp.
- More debuffs (disadvantage on attack rolls, saving throws etc.)
I don't want to sidetrack the thread with a discussion on my homebrew class, but most of these will actually apply to some degree. The witch class is primarily a debuffer and support caster, with at-will Bane as their main schtick. I expect Bane to be used most of the time, but Hex can be handy when Bane won't stick, and the longer duration makes it better for out of combat cursing. And it's still worth a pact magic slot when you want to curse someone for longer than an hour. Hex even beats Bestow Curse in duration, except in the specific case of burning a 9th level slot for permanent Bestow Curse.

[Zhorn]

At-will Hex at 18th level or later seems pretty weak, to be honest, but if I put it somewhere in the first three levels then suddenly it's a potential multiclass hazard. Even if it's not too strong for the witch, a sneaky warlock could dip in to grab it.
I'd say if it is at the very least 3 levels in, it's fine.
It's like with the hexblade's Hex Warrior feature, most complaints about how too easily accessible it is via multiclassing tend to agree it'd be fine at 3rd level.
Early enough to be accessible, but just a tiny bit outside dip territory and into the investment side of character builds.

[AvvyR]

I'd say if it is at the very least 3 levels in, it's fine.
It's like with the hexblade's Hex Warrior feature, most complaints about how too easily accessible it is via multiclassing tend to agree it'd be fine at 3rd level.
Early enough to be accessible, but just a tiny bit outside dip territory and into the investment side of character builds.

Agree. The only potential trouble I see is if you could easily get it onto a character that has nothing to use concentration on, like a fighter or monk. For a full caster, the concentration competition is too fierce to make it an overly powerful option.

[Chronos]

Quoth LudicSavant:

the main difference I foresee will be that you can swap what skill check it nerfs at-will, thus basically letting you give any contested check a Disadvantage on-demand (which is about as valuable as giving any contested check Advantage-on-demand).
Fun fact: Assuming no other sources of advantage or disadvantage, giving one side Advantage on an opposed check is exactly as valuable as giving the other side Disadvantage, no matter what the bonuses are.

[Damon_Tor]

Like other said, we'd have to see the whole class. But on the surface, a class that gets +1d6 to their attacks against a specified target at the cost of a bonus action and their concentration? No, that doesn't raise any red flags for me. On many classes this would actually be quite weak.

[LudicSavant]

I suspect many will focus just on the damage aspect (since that's the first thing that comes to mind when people think about Hex), but an important difference between an upcast all-day Hex and an at-will Hex is that it basically turns from the ability to nerf a specific contested check to the ability to nerf all contested checks whenever.

As for whether that's too strong; not in a vacuum, it just is something that has to be taken into consideration in context of the class as a whole.


Fun fact: Assuming no other sources of advantage or disadvantage, giving one side Advantage on an opposed check is exactly as valuable as giving the other side Disadvantage, no matter what the bonuses are.

For the most part yes, they're worth the same.

My choice of wording was 'about' instead of 'exactly' because there is a (small) difference in that Advantage and Disadvantage can interact differently with other abilities (for example, two sources of Disadvantage won't stack, but a source of Advantage on a contested roll and Disadvantage to an opponent on a contested roll will stack).

[Damon_Tor]

I suspect many will focus just on the damage aspect (since that's the first thing that comes to mind when people think about Hex), but an important difference between an upcast all-day Hex and an at-will Hex is that it basically turns from the ability to nerf a specific contested check to the ability to nerf all contested checks whenever.

As for whether that's too strong; not in a vacuum, it just is something that has to be taken into consideration in context of the class as a whole.

Yeah, and that's a thing, I guess. Mostly, I expect that would be relevant to spells that provoke a check instead of a save (unusual) but all of those that I can think of also use concentration so...

[Keravath]

Using at-will hex to offer disadvantage on contested skill checks only works in situations where casting it in the first place isn't an issue. Being able to cast something at will doesn't remove the component requirements making it a bit harder to use in social situations for example. So, I think that is perhaps less of an issue than at first glance unless it can be cast without components