Bard Builds (SotS or SubChord)

[Quenia]

Hello fellows,
quite new to the game and the forum, I ve been fascinated by the DnD world!
I ve been playing a Brd 6 in a grp of 4 in custom campaign a friend Dm runs and decided to run the IC gimik (SotH+InspBoost+BadgeValor+WoC).

Reading for my PrC strategy i am facing the dillema of Seeker of the Song, a very appealing class to me, VS Sublime Chord where from what i read it might be the best PrC for Bard.
SotS is a real prestige BARD, many cool abilites, some AC/DR/WSave boosts and can follow the shenanigans of the pre 10lvl Bard.
On the other hand, Sublime Chord has in it's arsenal many spells and might be coming online much quicker.

I would like some input if possible, as i am not exprerienced with higher lvl campaigns.

Also if some1 wants to share Character sheets of 11+ lvl of these classes i would be gratefull.

Thx in advance.

BR,
Q.

[Quenia]

Hello fellows,
quite new to the game and the forum, I ve been fascinated by the DnD world!
I ve been playing a Brd 6 in a grp of 4 in custom campaign a friend Dm runs and decided to run the IC gimik (SotH+InspBoost+BadgeValor+WoC).

Reading for my PrC strategy i am facing the dillema of Seeker of the Song, a very appealing class to me, VS Sublime Chord where from what i read it might be the best PrC for Bard.
SotS is a real prestige BARD, many cool abilites, some AC/DR/WSave boosts and can follow the shenanigans of the pre 10lvl Bard.
On the other hand, Sublime Chord has in it's arsenal many spells and might be coming online much quicker.

I would like some input if possible, as i am not exprerienced with higher lvl campaigns.

Also if some1 wants to share Character sheets of 11+ lvl of these classes i would be gratefull.

Thx in advance.

BR,
Q.

[lylsyly]

Honestly It's really a case of do you want to stick to music or get those 9th level spells. Some of the seeker musics are good but some of them aren't strong enough for the level you get them. Or at least that's how I saw it the 1 time I played one. One the other hand careful spells known selection can really benefit a Sublime Chord, which is my favorite bard prc. My favorite build is bard 9 / virtuoso 1 / sublime chord 2 / virtuoso 8 primarily because virtuosos levels for determining the level of inspire courage you get. Especially since you have already spent so many resources on optimizing IC

EDIT: forgot to mention that they both come online at 11th level

just my two coppers ;-)

[Rebel7284]

Seeker of the Song is a fun class, but most of the effects it replicates are low level spell effects (Resistance to Energy, weak direct damage spells, Dispel Magic, (weaker)Dimension Door, eventually Dismissal). In return it doesn't progress spellcasting, which gives you most of these effects anyway!
The only really unique effects are:
- Combine Songs (there are only two other ways of getting this as far as I know)
- Hymn of Spelldeath considering that many casters max concentration is not reliable and also affects your party and possibly even yourself equally!

Sublime Chord gives you high level spells.
In D&D 3.5, the power of spells grows exponentially and high level spells create some of the most powerful effects in the game. It even lets you take the most powerful Bard spells a few levels earlier than otherwise available to Bards! (Otto's Irresistible Dance is usually highlighted here)
The only drawback to Sublime Chord is that besides Song of Arcane Power, the rest of the class features don't do as much and it gets less Bardic music uses.

The usual build it something like this:
Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8 (Advancing Sublime Chord casting)
or
Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso +9 (Advancing Sublime Chord casting)

What this gives you is full Sublime Chord casting with all the game-ending spells while still giving you a TON of things to do with your music and you only lose one use of Bardic music.

Whether you want Song of Arcane Power of Revealing Melody is up to you. However regardless, you have stuff like Shapechange and emergency buttons like Gate or Wish and whatever other effects your party needs from utility like Greater Teleport to defensive things like Mind Blank to summoning an army to help you with Planar Binding, Greater to.. I mean, just read a Sorcerer handbook since you're now both a high level Bard AND a high level Sorcerer.

Edit: Here is a fancy "bard" I made without any bard levels https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622924-Rebel-s-Optimization-Showcase-Nood-the-Legend-Maker

One thing to note is that if you have access to Dragon Magazine, the feat Focused Performance will give you several options including Combine Songs.

[Quenia]

Thank you! The way you put it there is not even the slightest doubt.
What about Brd 10 / Subl Chord 10?
You take song of timelessness, which seems nice, and with vest of legends and MW lute you can get to +4 IC . Downside that you lose 5 BM/d.
Am missing something?

Edit:typos

[Maat Mons]

I kind of like Bard 6 / Paladin of Freedom 2 / Virtuoso 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Virtuoso +8.

[H_H_F_F]

Something worth mentioning is that a lot of this will, as always, depend on the party's optimization level. If you're running around with a half-elf bladesinger and a fighter 10 with greater weapon specialization, than going for 9ths level spells is very much overkill, and detrimental to the game as a whole. I'd say the pick depends a lot on your party composition, and what would be fun in that context.

If Tome of Battle is on the table (and if you like it), going for warblade and song of the white raven is also a possibility.

[Buufreak]

The reason you generally don't see anyone go full 10 on sublime chord and instead fill it in with something like virtuoso is because after a point it isn't worth it. You have delayed music progression, and the capstone song of fires and flames (queue the music!) is very underwhelming.

[Telonius]

Yeah, party optimization (and player experience) can factor in very much. Do you know what the rest of the table is going to be playing? Also, what sources are available?

"Getting 9th-level spells" is obviously better than "not getting 9th-level spells." But for spontaneous casters, exactly which spells you pick for your Spells Known, will matter a lot. You only get a few 7-, 8-, and 9-level spells known, so you really have to make them count. This can be kind of tricky for a player who's not used to all of the options. There are a bunch of conversations floating around about which ones to pick; you can google "Sublime Chord spell selection," and find a bunch.

If you're going to be optimizing for Inspire Courage, and Dragon magazine is on the table, the "Heartfire Fanner" prestige class (from Dragon 314, p 23-24) might be something to look into. It gives a few additional boosts to your usual Inspire Courage shtick. Personally I think it could mesh very well RP-wise with an Exalted character, as well as the fluff of the Words of Creation feat (which you're already mentioned wanting). It is Dragon Magazine though, and a lot of DMs don't allow it.

[Troacctid]

Sublime chord is just better by a lot and it really isn't close. All those cool bardic music effects you get from seeker are just worse versions of actual spells that you could get from sublime chord. It's honestly really embarrassing that the two are right next to each other in the same book.

[Quenia]

Yeah, party optimization (and player experience) can factor in very much. Do you know what the rest of the table is going to be playing? Also, what sources are available?

"Getting 9th-level spells" is obviously better than "not getting 9th-level spells." But for spontaneous casters, exactly which spells you pick for your Spells Known, will matter a lot. You only get a few 7-, 8-, and 9-level spells known, so you really have to make them count. This can be kind of tricky for a player who's not used to all of the options. There are a bunch of conversations floating around about which ones to pick; you can google "Sublime Chord spell selection," and find a bunch.

If you're going to be optimizing for Inspire Courage, and Dragon magazine is on the table, the "Heartfire Fanner" prestige class (from Dragon 314, p 23-24) might be something to look into. It gives a few additional boosts to your usual Inspire Courage shtick. Personally I think it could mesh very well RP-wise with an Exalted character, as well as the fluff of the Words of Creation feat (which you're already mentioned wanting). It is Dragon Magazine though, and a lot of DMs don't allow it.

Heartfire Fanner seems nice a bit tax heavy on feats and i am on 8 str for considering any melee bard (Str 8 , Dex 12 , Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10 , Cha 18). Plus we are not playing DrM even though i could DM to accept a prestige class (bard IRL xD)
My grp consists of an archer (multi shot) , Wizard (summon + debuffs for the time), Cleric (tank + nature ally + melee). We are all below 8 so not any real talk about PrC.

My initial though about SotS was to disregard spells go with Full Plate (ASF check) and generally tank up. Maybe pick up healing hymn to boost song of life. Semi tank, linger around to buff as long as it can and assist.

From the discussion so far I see B9/V1/SC2/V8 is the most efficient build.

Any suggestion how to justify to my DM that a 2lvl dive in SC can still get all the spell lvl boosts from Virtuozo?

Edit: I think i get it you go 1 lv Virtuso prior to SC to account that as THE arcane spellcaster?

PS: Thank you all for the replies

[Troacctid]

Personally, I think virtuoso is a little bit boring, especially when you're already a bard and the virtuoso performances are redundant. I usually spring for something a little spicier, like ardent dilettante, soulcaster, sand shaper, or dracolexi.

[Anthrowhale]

Any suggestion how to justify to my DM that a 2lvl dive in SC can still get all the spell lvl boosts from Virtuozo?

At that point, you'll have two arcane classes (Bard & SC) you can advance. You can only advance one of them with Virtuoso, but you get to choose which.

[Rebel7284]

Any suggestion how to justify to my DM that a 2lvl dive in SC can still get all the spell lvl boosts from Virtuozo?




If he had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a virtuoso, he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known


So D&D 3.5 is written in an extremely inconsistent way. MANY (most?) prestige classes don't have the bolded text and definitely and unquestionably can be used to advance classes that are taken later in the progression, but some, seemingly at random, specify that they progress classes that the character took before. I am deeply convinced that this isn't an intentional goal for some classes to act differently, but more a difference of editing + lack of imagination. So I would suggest rephrasing the bolded part to "before reaching this level of virtuoso."

Note that my suggestion based on Rules as Intended is just that, a suggestion, so it is good to ask your DM. Just because everyone on an internet forum chooses to ignore that weird inconsistency, doesn't mean your DM will make the same choice. :smallsmile:

Edit

Also, the text directly above that also references "prestige class level." so clearly the intent is to re-check this every level



Beginning at 2nd level, a virtuoso gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level.

End Edit

If your DM doesn't allow this, you can go back to your Bard 10/SC 10 idea. You give up all the extra class features of Virtuoso and some Bardic Music uses which is sad, but at least you get extra Bard spellcasting instead of briefly lagging at level 10 and you are still definitely powerful enough.

Of course, you can also take other classes instead of Virtuoso that fill a similar role, but most other ones that help a lot with spellcasting, do delay your Bardic Music some. (But hey, Vest of Legends...)
- War Weaver: Lose some bardic Music, but buff your WHOLE party using a MOVE action! (take the level that loses spellcasting before Sublime Chord, of course)
- Shadowcraft Mage (Cabal adaptation): Much wider spell access.
- Fochlucan Lyrist: Full BAB double progression class with bardic music? Typically you would do something like Bard 9/Druid 1/Sublime Chord 1/FL 9 with Ring of Evasion. No class features of note, but hey, Druid spells are fun. :smallsmile:

[tiercel]

Unpopular opinion: the best* PrC for Bard is perhaps MOAR BARD.

Yes, yes, I certainly hear the whole “9th level spells are better than anything and THOU MUST TAKETH THE CHORD Of SUBLIMITY” argument, but my personal opinion against it is due partly to my gaming experiences:


number of campaigns I’ve played in, in which any PC attained 9th level spells: zero
number of campaigns I’ve played in, in which any PC attained 8th level spells: one
average character levels at which campaigns I’ve played in have ended: 9th-12th


the point being firstly, that, my personal experience aside, you really want to have some reasonable idea what level your campaign is going to even get to before you get too excited about a Sublime Chord build.

Secondly, while I know that a Bard/Virtuoso/SC/Partridge/Pear Tree class combo gets better spellcasting than a bard, so does a bog-standard sorcerer —never mind whatever PrCs it starts racking up at character level 6+ — (heck, so does a -gasp- Stalwart Battle Sorcerer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?508706-Stalwart-battle-sorcerer-vs-common-Sorcadin-build)), and it does so from level 1.

I suppose that to me, *best in terms of bard doesn’t necessarily always mean “max spellcasting power” or even “max magic buffs,” since the latter could be doled out by Wiz/War Weaver or even standard CoDzilla.

I suppose that, for me, playing bard means I want to play T3, to be in many ways the D&D equivalent of Gandalf — having the ability to know a bit about many things, to influence people and events, to inspire and build up my friends, to occasionally use magic which can be potent when used, not to be shy about laying about with a blade when need be, but not to just reach for a spell for every problem.

(Heck, there are even a few tricks, e.g. Lore Song ACF and crystal echoblade that offer even some purely mechanical benefit for staying in Bard beyond the class’s own progression of skills, music, magic.)

I’m not saying there aren’t reasons to specialize out of the Bard class. I just don’t think that all of them are necessarily “MUST SUBLIME CHORD” outside of folks who want to bard/sorcerer multiclass and are going to be playing an appreciable amount of time above 12th level.

[Rebel7284]

Unpopular opinion: the best* PrC for Bard is perhaps MOAR BARD.

Yes, yes, I certainly hear the whole “9th level spells are better than anything and THOU MUST TAKETH THE CHORD Of SUBLIMITY” argument, but my personal opinion against it is due partly to my gaming experiences:


number of campaigns I’ve played in, in which any PC attained 9th level spells: zero
number of campaigns I’ve played in, in which any PC attained 8th level spells: one
average character levels at which campaigns I’ve played in have ended: 9th-12th


the point being firstly, that, my personal experience aside, you really want to have some reasonable idea what level your campaign is going to even get to before you get too excited about a Sublime Chord build.

Secondly, while I know that a Bard/Virtuoso/SC/Partridge/Pear Tree class combo gets better spellcasting than a bard, so does a bog-standard sorcerer —never mind whatever PrCs it starts racking up at character level 6+ — (heck, so does a -gasp- Stalwart Battle Sorcerer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?508706-Stalwart-battle-sorcerer-vs-common-Sorcadin-build)), and it does so from level 1.

I suppose that to me, *best in terms of bard doesn’t necessarily always mean “max spellcasting power” or even “max magic buffs,” since the latter could be doled out by Wiz/War Weaver or even standard CoDzilla.

I suppose that, for me, playing bard means I want to play T3, to be in many ways the D&D equivalent of Gandalf — having the ability to know a bit about many things, to influence people and events, to inspire and build up my friends, to occasionally use magic which can be potent when used, not to be shy about laying about with a blade when need be, but not to just reach for a spell for every problem.

(Heck, there are even a few tricks, e.g. Lore Song ACF and crystal echoblade that offer even some purely mechanical benefit for staying in Bard beyond the class’s own progression of skills, music, magic.)

I’m not saying there aren’t reasons to specialize out of the Bard class. I just don’t think that all of them are necessarily “MUST SUBLIME CHORD” outside of folks who want to bard/sorcerer multiclass and are going to be playing an appreciable amount of time above 12th level.

Here is the thing, casting is nice, if that's all you're looking for, then yeah, play a Wizard, I agree!

However, the thing with the whole Bard/Virtuoso/SC builds is that they keep everything that make Bards nifty in niche situations (skillpoints+social skills, nifty music effects,etc) and then ALSO get better spellcasting on top of that.

Now of course if you expect your campaign to end at level 10 exactly, taking that one level of Virtuoso and never getting to Sublime Chord is a net loss.
However presumably most of the time, you will either:
- End the campaign before this point - in which case you played a straight Bard and all the tier 3 goodness
- End the campaign after and get to enjoy some levels of improved casting.

The main draw of Sublime Chord isn't just that it grants better spellcasting (starting at level 1!), it's that it grants better spellcasting without having to give up anything significant in return from a Bard perspective.

Of course there are in-character or personal preference reasons you may want to play something else and that's perfectly fine!

[Quenia]

Thank you all for the feedback, you have been very helpfull !

One more thing that you might help with:
I am currently using the following feats (lv6 Human Bard):
Improve initiative
Melodic Casting
Song of the Heart
Word of creation

Do you have any pointers what to aim for my next feats, condirdering that I choose B9/V1/SC2/V8

[Telonius]

Nymph's Kiss is a very good one (assuming you can meet the prereq). Extra skill points, better saves versus spells, and bonuses to skills a Bard would care about.

(EDIT: Because of the wording of the feat, it's better the earlier in the build you can take it. If you can get the DM to agree to it, 1st-level is best, so swap it for Improved Initiative, which I'm assuming you're taking at first level. You can take that one later on.)

[Anthrowhale]

You could go Dragonborn and pick up Dragonfire Inspiration.

You might consider picking up Snowflake Wardance to join the melee at higher levels. Doing so under a Contingency[Draconic Polymorph[War Troll]] or similar could provide a pretty effective combatant.

[Rebel7284]

Nymph's Kiss is a very good one (assuming you can meet the prereq). Extra skill points, better saves versus spells, and bonuses to skills a Bard would care about.

(EDIT: Because of the wording of the feat, it's better the earlier in the build you can take it. If you can get the DM to agree to it, 1st-level is best, so swap it for Improved Initiative, which I'm assuming you're taking at first level. You can take that one later on.)

That edit is real important. Nymph's Kiss is nifty if you want to focus on skills, but is effectively first level only.

I think you're on the right track as far as feats overall.

Some ideas:
Versatile Spellcaster - You may even be able to sacrifice Bard spell slots to cast Sublime Chord spells! Regardless, more high level spells is good!
Dragonfire Inspiration - If you can qualify, it can be pretty useful. Although, fire damage is very commonly resisted at high levels, when it's not, it can really add up.
Craft Contingent Spell - It's more helpful when you can coordinate spell access with your Wizard, but Craft Contingent Spell is amazing. Why have a contingency when you can have HD x Contingencies that you can share with your party? As all crafting feats requires that there is at least some down time.
Lingering Song - This can be good for stacking a bunch of songs together on your allies if you have time to buff before combat.
Obtain Familiar - Can be risky if it dies, but you have a lot of skills, and getting to make skill checks twice due to a familiar is fun. Can be extra broken when it uses your ranks in UMD to activate items for you.

[tiercel]

However, the thing with the whole Bard/Virtuoso/SC builds is that they keep everything that make Bards nifty in niche situations (skillpoints+social skills, nifty music effects,etc) and then ALSO get better spellcasting on top of that.

Now of course if you expect your campaign to end at level 10 exactly, taking that one level of Virtuoso and never getting to Sublime Chord is a net loss.
However presumably most of the time, you will either:
- End the campaign before this point - in which case you played a straight Bard and all the tier 3 goodness
- End the campaign after and get to enjoy some levels of improved casting.

The main draw of Sublime Chord isn't just that it grants better spellcasting (starting at level 1!), it's that it grants better spellcasting without having to give up anything significant in return from a Bard perspective.


I know many people don’t value skill points that highly, but if I’m playing a bard to be a social/party face, not only am I not going to generally spend 6 points on Prof (Astrologer), but quite possibly not the 19 points in K-Arcana and Spellcraft either, and just possibly not even the 8 skill points needed for cross-class Intimidate ranks (or shenanigans to get Intimidate as a class skill) to get into Virtuoso, much less the -2 points/SC level compared to Bard.

I know some folks may not think bards should ever be making attack rolls, but dipping (or more than dipping) Virtuoso and SC are BAB hits as well (and hits to non-Will saves, for that matter).

And SC builds often mean skipping out on Bard before Inspire Greatness (which is that much better if Song of the Heart is in play).

If I’m not going to play a significant amount of time at *at least* 13th level (when getting significant extra spell access, including early access to 6th-level-Bard-spells), the costs, while not huge, are arguably still significant compared to the gains when barely starting in SC, especially if I’m not particularly tying myself to a “spellcaster first bard” archetype.

The costs may not seem like much next to NINTH LEVEL SPELLS, but those don’t happen until character level 19 anyway for a SC.

[Quenia]

I know many people don’t value skill points that highly, but if I’m playing a bard to be a social/party face, not only am I not going to generally spend 6 points on Prof (Astrologer), but quite possibly not the 19 points in K-Arcana and Spellcraft either, and just possibly not even the 8 skill points needed for cross-class Intimidate ranks (or shenanigans to get Intimidate as a class skill) to get into Virtuoso, much less the -2 points/SC level compared to Bard.

I know some folks may not think bards should ever be making attack rolls, but dipping (or more than dipping) Virtuoso and SC are BAB hits as well (and hits to non-Will saves, for that matter).

And SC builds often mean skipping out on Bard before Inspire Greatness (which is that much better if Song of the Heart is in play).

If I’m not going to play a significant amount of time at *at least* 13th level (when getting significant extra spell access, including early access to 6th-level-Bard-spells), the costs, while not huge, are arguably still significant compared to the gains when barely starting in SC, especially if I’m not particularly tying myself to a “spellcaster first bard” archetype.

The costs may not seem like much next to NINTH LEVEL SPELLS, but those don’t happen until character level 19 anyway for a SC.

Valid point!
Even though the specific build does not require any extra feet and bard has a ton of skill points (especially if you have high INT).. Intimidate 4 ranks (8 ranks cross class) for Virtuoso and listen 13 ranks and profession 6 ranks for Sublime Chord is above 2.5 lvls worth of skill points!

The best part of this build imho is that you can still advance your core bard IC. Plus you can take some strong spells and a few more bard songs. In any other aspect Virtuoso is unappealing at least imho.
Apart from lv5 jarring song (silence) and lv7 song of fury (mass rage). Which you will take very late in game.

[lylsyly]

Bard 20 is perfectly acceptable if that the way you want to go HANDBOOK (https://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook/)
Go ranged, Pump IC and diplomacy.

[Troacctid]

The costs may not seem like much next to NINTH LEVEL SPELLS, but those don’t happen until character level 19 anyway for a SC.
Who cares about 9th level spells? You're getting 5th and 6th level spells multiple levels early. You're getting 7ths before a regular bard gets 6ths. You're able to pick from the entire sorcerer/wizard list in addition to your bard list. You're casting all of these at +4 CL with the song of arcane power. And you still get to keep your bard skill points via the prestige class if you want! All you have to do is max out Listen—one of the most commonly rolled skills in the game—and dump 6 points in Profession (Having Overpowered Spells).

[Mordante]

Honestly It's really a case of do you want to stick to music or get those 9th level spells. Some of the seeker musics are good but some of them aren't strong enough for the level you get them. Or at least that's how I saw it the 1 time I played one. One the other hand careful spells known selection can really benefit a Sublime Chord, which is my favorite bard prc. My favorite build is bard 9 / virtuoso 1 / sublime chord 2 / virtuoso 8 primarily because virtuosos levels for determining the level of inspire courage you get. Especially since you have already spent so many resources on optimizing IC

EDIT: forgot to mention that they both come online at 11th level

just my two coppers ;-)

What are you doing for the first year(s) of playing? Going from lvl 1 to lvl 11 will probably take over a year of monthly to bi monthly playing.

[lylsyly]

What are you doing for the first year(s) of playing? Going from lvl 1 to lvl 11 will probably take over a year of monthly to bi monthly playing.

Try a Friday Night Session, Two Saturday Sessions and a Sunday Session! What can I say, we play a LOT! ;-)
A lvel 3-12 game takes around six months. Level 3-20? Usually 12 to 15 months. But we haev some house rules that speed actual game play up.

[Mordante]

Try a Friday Night Session, Two Saturday Sessions and a Sunday Session! What can I say, we play a LOT! ;-)
A lvel 3-12 game takes around six months. Level 3-20? Usually 12 to 15 months. But we haev some house rules that speed actual game play up.

That is a lot of play time yes. I'm in a party since 2017, the part was at level 14 or 15 at the time. I think we are level 16 or 17 now. Some characters in this party are well over a decade old, the main quest line is nearly finished.

None of us are very powerful.

[tiercel]

Who cares about 9th level spells? You're getting 5th and 6th level spells multiple levels early. You're getting 7ths before a regular bard gets 6ths. You're able to pick from the entire sorcerer/wizard list in addition to your bard list. You're casting all of these at +4 CL with the song of arcane power. And you still get to keep your bard skill points via the prestige class if you want! All you have to do is max out Listen—one of the most commonly rolled skills in the game—and dump 6 points in Profession (Having Overpowered Spells).

Er… it really isn’t just 6 skill points for many bard builds, ones that aren’t already aiming for being a caster-focused bard. As I pointed out above (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25541136&postcount=21), it’s also 19 skill points of Spellcraft and K-Arcana that many bards might not otherwise take if they aren’t specifically aiming to be a bard-eventually-becoming-more-caster, never mind the 8 skill points to gain 4 cross-class ranks in Intimidate (or the feat or class dip to make Intimidate a class skill) for Virtuoso entry as well.

33 skill points is non-negligible investment, IMO.

Does SC have better casting than the bard? Of course - that’s the whole point. But you don’t get any of that until 11th level, and it doesn’t get more significant until ~13th level. If you want to play a bard/sorcerer multiclass and if you will get to spend significant time playing at 13th level or higher, then SC is good for you, of course.

But as a “of course any bard should take it because it’s just an upgrade” class? Well… the skill point cost is not nothing, you don’t get to be your archetype for a long time unless you advance quickly or start at at least a mid-to-high level, and if you’re willing to convert “regular” bard into “semi-sorcerer bard” it does kinda invite the question of “why not just play MOAR CASTER”?

I mean, if SC is great because it gives 7th level spells before bards get 6th level spells, then what about bog-standard sorcerers getting 7th level spells even earlier, getting three per day at 14th level when SCs get one per day at 15th level and will only ever get three per day while sorcerers get six? (And none of this counts the shenanigans that sorcerers will inevitably get from full-casting PrCs of their own.)

If it’s not *just* about spells, then compare beguilers instead, since they get skill points and sorcerer casting (yes, not the full Wiz/Sor list, but not a shabby list for a focused one, and expandable with tricks) together starting from level 1 — or even an Unseen Seer build, which comes together a lot faster than even entering SC.

And if it’s about buffing, a wizard can finish War Weaver before a bard can even start SC — and then go jaunting off into IotSV or some other chicanery.

(Heck, if it’s about caster level boosting, a bard who takes enough actual bard levels for Inspire Greatness - especially with Song of the Heart - can boost CL using Practiced Spellcaster to get extra juice out of those bonus HD, presumably, if that’s important.)

I know that part of my perception of SC is colored by my personal gaming experience of 12th+ character level being rare (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25540554&postcount=15), but it really does seem like to me that if spellcasting matters, it can be prioritized way more and faster than a bard/SC build, arcane skillmonkey archetypes exist that are more accessible (and even have comparable/more spells), and raw buffing can be handled by, if not pure spellcasting, War Wizard shenanigans et al.

I’m not saying this to trash bard, or to trash SC, but to say that to me, SC is a “I really want a bard/sor multiclass and don’t mind it really only coming online at mid-high levels” class, not a “all bards should consider” class.

[Anthrowhale]

33 skill points is non-negligible investment, IMO.

I buy that the skill investment is high.


But you don’t get any of that until 11th level, and it doesn’t get more significant until ~13th level.

I am not following here---SC gives an extra level of spell access over a pure Bard from a much wider list at ECL 11. That seems significant?


... what about bog-standard sorcerers getting 7th level spells even earlier, getting three per day at 14th level when SCs get one per day at 15th level and will only ever get three per day while sorcerers get six?

At a structural level, spells become much more capable at high levels so SCs ability to provide some access to high level spells without forcing a character to play a pure spellcaster is handy in character design as it opens up many not-a-pure-spellcaster-but-still-capable character concepts.

[Rleonardh]

Another thing to consider, game is not all combat.
A bard can do so many things plus built anyway listed above by posters you will be able to cover alot of area.

Many know the saying
Jack of all but master of none.
But they leave out the rest, which is:
Still better than a master of one.

Bard will have so many things to add in and out of combat.
Is it not funny how, cleric druid, wizard, sorcerer, bard, and ranger are the best in core?

Everything a rogue can do, magic can do better most of the time.

This is the reason why full and half casters are so high on tier list, ability to handle situations that come up.

[Quenia]

Er… it really isn’t just 6 skill points for many bard builds, ones that aren’t already aiming for being a caster-focused bard. As I pointed out above, it’s also 19 skill points of Spellcraft and K-Arcana that many bards might not otherwise take if they aren’t specifically aiming to be a bard-eventually-becoming-more-caster, never mind the 8 skill points to gain 4 cross-class ranks in Intimidate (or the feat or class dip to make Intimidate a class skill) for Virtuoso entry as well.

33 skill points is non-negligible investment, IMO.


Tbh both Spellcraft and knowledge arcana are quite useful imho.
The former (Spellcraft) cause using scrolls at early lvls is handy. Wands are good also but you can have a much bigger variety of scrolls in your arsenal.
Knowledge arcana is also good (as well as bardic knowledge) if you play in a custom campaign where locations / monsters / objectives are unknown...all extra info can be valuable. Also it fits to bard role/lore; knowledge is usually an objective for a story teller 😉.

Intimidate seems a bit pointless imho.
But it's true that if you invest so many skill points you hardly can max other things that make you useful below 10 (Diplomacy, Bluff, UMD, Gather Information). From lv6 you must organize your skills carefully in order to proceed to V/SC strategy.

[lylsyly]

At our table we use the 3.0 version requirements. Intimidate OR Diplomacy 4 ranks. This is because we too never understood what Intimidate had to do with it. At least with Sublime Chord the profession: astrologer fits the fluff ;-).

Comparing Bards to Sorcerers is like comparing apples to oranges, they are not the sasme thing. Nor are they desinged to fill the same roll. Bards are support characters, their job is to make the PARTY shine. Inspire Courage is easy enough to optimize and diplomacy (especiall RAW) can be an encounter ender. Getting ninth level spells is just icing on the cake and serious consideration SHOULD be given to using those few spells known for things that can get a party out of hot water or really help make one or more members of the party more effective.

At least that is the way I've always played them.