Volley and number of damage rolls

[Silpharon]

Hunter's Volley is one of the special "Multi-Attack" actions. It is specifically deemed "one attack" (see sage advice), though an independent attack roll is made on each creature in the AoE. This terminology seems unique in 5e.

My question: is damage rolled once, or multiple times for each hit?

PHB:


"If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them."
... Further down...
"You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage."


Which is more specific? I'm thinking the latter, but wanted to get your take.

I could see rolling damage dice once, then rolling a bunch of attack rolls to see who's AC breaks. This would be faster. A nat 20 makes it complicated, but I could pre-roll double dice for all crits in the group...

[Leon]

Its not a spell, its a specific variance of the attack option.
Damage for each attack roll you make ~ Ex: 5 targets in the designated area, 5 attacks made, 5 damages rolled, 5 ammo spent.

[Silpharon]

Its not a spell, its a specific variance of the attack option.
Damage for each attack roll you make ~ Ex: 5 targets in the designated area, 5 attacks made, 5 damages rolled, 5 ammo spent.

The rules say "spell or other effect", this could be deemed an "other effect" since it's a unique action, but I get where you're coming from.

And it's one attack made, not 5. Zephyr Strike extra damage would affect all targets. It's only 5 attack rolls made...

[RSP]

“You can use your action to make a ranged attack against any number of creatures within 10 feet of a point you can see within your weapon’s range. You must have ammunition for each target, as normal, and you make a separate attack roll for each target.”

This seems to me to be a special Action that allows one attack to affect multiple enemies. The rule about making one damage roll for an “other effect” mentioned in the OP would hold true.

The second rule mention in the OP (“On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise.”) doesn’t pertain to this ability as the ability doesn’t specify otherwise for damage, just attack rolls.

[Silpharon]

“You can use your action to make a ranged attack against any number of creatures within 10 feet of a point you can see within your weapon’s range. You must have ammunition for each target, as normal, and you make a separate attack roll for each target.”

This seems to me to be a special Action that allows one attack to affect multiple enemies. The rule about making one damage roll for an “other effect” mentioned in the OP would hold true.

The second rule mention in the OP (“On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise.”) doesn’t pertain to this ability as the ability doesn’t specify otherwise for damage, just attack rolls.

That makes sense, but how would you handle critical hits?

[RSP]

That makes sense, but how would you handle critical hits?

If it occurs, I’d roll the extra crit dice and add it to the damage on the creatures that got the 20(s).

[Silpharon]

If it occurs, I’d roll the extra crit dice and add it to the damage on the creatures that got the 20(s).
Yeah, that matches my instinct too. Any other take on this folks? Rules wise it seems nebulous which way is most appropriate.

[Leon]

The rules say "spell or other effect", this could be deemed an "other effect" since it's a unique action, but I get where you're coming from.

And it's one attack made, not 5. Zephyr Strike extra damage would affect all targets. It's only 5 attack rolls made...

Its a Weapon attack not a spell or other effect.
Its still separate damage rolls, you Take the attack action to make a Volley Attack, you target however many things are in that 10ft area and make attacks rolls against them then damage for any that are hit. If if were "one large projectile" being shot then everything would be under one damage roll and then the ability wouldn't be called Volley

[RSP]

Its a Weapon attack not a spell or other effect.
Its still separate damage rolls, you Take the attack action to make a Volley Attack, you target however many things are in that 10ft area and make attacks rolls against them then damage for any that are hit. If if were "one large projectile" being shot then everything would be under one damage roll and then the ability wouldn't be called Volley

Is it not an ability that produces an effect, while not being a spell? Wouldn’t that be the condition needed for “spell or other effect”?

[Gurgeh]

It's not dealing damage to more than one target at the same time, it's making separate attacks against each of them.

Fireball produces a single effect that can hit more than one target, and rolls its damage once; Scorching Ray produces multiple independent effects and requires you to make separate attack and damage rolls for each target.

[Silpharon]

It's not dealing damage to more than one target at the same time, it's making separate attacks against each of them.

Fireball produces a single effect that can hit more than one target, and rolls its damage once; Scorching Ray produces multiple independent effects and requires you to make separate attack and damage rolls for each target.

Officially, it's a "single attack" with "multiple attack rolls". Same as Whirlwind Attack. Sage Advice Compendium reinforces that position.

I think it is dealing the damage at the same time actually. In fact, Sage Advice Compendium goes on to state you cannot move between the attack rolls (unlike normal attacks), further signifying no time between rolls.

You cannot compare it to Scorching Ray, which uses legitimately separate and sequential spell attacks. I think Volley is best pictured as an archer nocking multiple arrows in the bow and firing them all at the same time.

I used to think, "well each arrow would do a different amount of damage depending on where it hit", but there are plenty of spells that would seem to potentially do different amounts of damage to each target, but they don't. Case in point, Conjure Barrage, which is effectively identical in theme to Volley.

[Gurgeh]

Scorching Ray doesn't let you move between attack rolls either - casting the spell is an atomic action, and all of its components need to be resolved at once. The rules governing it aren't the same, since Scorching Ray isn't a weapon attack, but they lead to the same answer.

It's also not a particularly relevant issue, since it'll all come out in the wash if you stretch it out to infinity. It's the same as the old "do you roll twice as many dice on a crit or just roll the usual amount and multiply by two?" question that applied in older editions of D&D. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[Silpharon]

Scorching Ray doesn't let you move between attack rolls either - casting the spell is an atomic action, and all of its components need to be resolved at once. The rules governing it aren't the same, since Scorching Ray isn't a weapon attack, but they lead to the same answer.

It's also not a particularly relevant issue, since it'll all come out in the wash if you stretch it out to infinity. It's the same as the old "do you roll twice as many dice on a crit or just roll the usual amount and multiply by two?" question that applied in older editions of D&D. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

It's relevant in the mechanics. For instance, Zephyr Strike adds its 1d8 to all affected enemies of volley, since it affects a weapon attack and Volley is a (singular) weapon attack. See here:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?577846-Optimising-Volley

The reason the damage roll is important is that some effects apply strictly to the damage roll itself. For instance: Tempest Cleric's Destructive Wrath (if using a lightning/thunder weapon like Armorer's Lightning Launcher) or the Piercer feat's second point (the third doesn't apply).

When I began investigating Volley, I thought: "holy cow this could get out of hand, think of all the +dmg on next attack effects there are!" But in reality there aren't many. Most are worded, "when you do damage to a creature... The target takes an additional XYZ damage". This throws out a lot of the big bonuses, including Sneak Attack.

Volley has been in the rules since day 1 of 5e. It's clear the designers worded most effects to not stack with it, but some do: stuff like Valor Bard Combat Inspiration, Battle Maneuvers, and Kensei Shot.

[JonBeowulf]

Seems to me you knew how you wanted it to work before you even posted. I see both interpretations as valid and hope it never comes up at my table 'cause then I'd need to choose one. I'm leaning towards "roll damage for each one" because it protects the player from a real crap damage roll that ruins what could have been an epic turn.