Genie Warlock's Limited Wish: Upcasting?

[diplomancer]

What it says on the tin: we know we can use wish to upcast a spell to 8th level. Can you do the same with Genie Warlock's limited wish, asking your Patron to upcast a spell to 6th level? The Tasha's summons line of spells get a big benefit from upcasting, just as an example.

[Amnestic]

Wish upcasting isn't RAW, it's suggested as RAI by Crawford on twitter, so you can't take it as guaranteed; worth checking with your DM first. Same applies to Limited Wish - it's not specified, so you should check. Personally I think it does upcast (in both cases) but DM opinion may vary.

While you're chatting to them you should clarify how Limited Wish works with Concentration, since the text is a bit ambiguous on it and, again, opinions differ (my view: it does require the warlock's concentration, instead of the Patron's).

[Chronos]

The same arguments should apply to both. Personally, I think that it works for both: Summon Animals upcast to 6th level is a 6th level spell, so it's something that Limited Wish can replicate.

[Psyren]

It specifically says "requesting the effect of one spell that is 6th-level or lower" - I would say a lower level spell upcast to 6th has the effect of a 6th level spell by definition, and thus allow this.

[Unoriginal]

What it says on the tin: we know we can use wish to upcast a spell to 8th level. Can you do the same with Genie Warlock's limited wish, asking your Patron to upcast a spell to 6th level? The Tasha's summons line of spells get a big benefit from upcasting, just as an example.

You can't use Wish to upcast any spell, though. Wish duplicates the base effects of the spell, nothing more.

[Psyren]

You can't use Wish to upcast any spell, though. Wish duplicates the base effects of the spell, nothing more.

Putting aside that this is one possible interpretation of the text, the Wish spell and the Limited Wish feature's "duplicate" clauses do not have identical wording.

[Unoriginal]

Putting aside that this is one possible interpretation of the text, the Wish spell and the Limited Wish feature's "duplicate" clauses do not have identical wording.

Fair points.

In any case, personally I certainly wouldn't give Limited Wish more versatility in what it can do with spells than Wish can.

[Keravath]

Wish: "The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower."
Limited Wish: "requesting the effect of one spell that is 6th level or lower and has a casting time of 1 action"

Upcasting a spell makes it a spell of a particular level.

Casting conjure animals at 8th level makes it an 8th level spell. Casting it at 6th level makes it a 6th level spell.

When I first read these limits, I immediately thought of spells cast at their base level but neither of these includes any explicit limitation like that - they just say "any other spell of 8th level or lower" or "effect of one spell that is 6th level or lower" and in both cases, after thinking about it, I think that should include upcast spells to 8th and 6th level respectively.

[Psyren]

Wish: "The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower."
Limited Wish: "requesting the effect of one spell that is 6th level or lower and has a casting time of 1 action"

Upcasting a spell makes it a spell of a particular level.

Casting conjure animals at 8th level makes it an 8th level spell. Casting it at 6th level makes it a 6th level spell.

When I first read these limits, I immediately thought of spells cast at their base level but neither of these includes any explicit limitation like that - they just say "any other spell of 8th level or lower" or "effect of one spell that is 6th level or lower" and in both cases, after thinking about it, I think that should include upcast spells to 8th and 6th level respectively.

Right - and even if you conclude that an upcast X+Y=Z spell is not truly a Z level spell, it certainly has the effect of one. So even if you don't let Wish do this, Limited Wish should still work.

And as a corollary:



In any case, personally I certainly wouldn't give Limited Wish more versatility in what it can do with spells than Wish can.

This too. Wish should be stronger than the Genielock's knock-off.

[Rukelnikov]

Wish: "The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower."
Limited Wish: "requesting the effect of one spell that is 6th level or lower and has a casting time of 1 action"

Upcasting a spell makes it a spell of a particular level.

Casting conjure animals at 8th level makes it an 8th level spell. Casting it at 6th level makes it a 6th level spell.

When I first read these limits, I immediately thought of spells cast at their base level but neither of these includes any explicit limitation like that - they just say "any other spell of 8th level or lower" or "effect of one spell that is 6th level or lower" and in both cases, after thinking about it, I think that should include upcast spells to 8th and 6th level respectively.

Indeed, a Magic Missile cast with an 8th level slot is an 8th lvl spell, and thus replicable by Wish.


This too. Wish should be stronger than the Genielock's knock-off.

It'd still be copying spells of 7th and 8th level, and being usable every day instead every couple days makes Wish more powerful. Limited Wish is an extra flexible 6th level slot though, which makes a very powerful ability but its every 1d4 days holds it back.

[KorvinStarmast]

It specifically says "requesting the effect of one spell that is 6th-level or lower" - I would say a lower level spell upcast to 6th has the effect of a 6th level spell by definition, and thus allow this. While I find that interpretation reasonable, I can understand using it a bit like casting from an item and limiting it to the lowest level the spell can be cast at ... but honestly, if someone upcasts cure wounds at level 6 using limited wish, am I going to bicker about it? No.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

It'd still be copying spells of 7th and 8th level, and being usable every day instead every couple days makes Wish more powerful. Limited Wish is an extra flexible 6th level slot though, which makes a very powerful ability but its every 1d4 days holds it back.

Even if you houserule it to 1/LR (Something my table does) It's still weaker than Wish in multiple ways.

Aside from the simple Spell Slot being 6th instead of 8th, there's also the fact that Limited Wish can ONLY mimic a spell of 6th level Down. Where as Wish can still make wealth, provide buffs, etc, etc, etc plus go even beyond that with DM interference and risk.

A limited wish will never be anything but a 6th level spellslot. A Wish might alter the game forever.

[Amnestic]

The list of spells Limited Wish can replicate that you would want to use with upcasting is pretty limited - generally just Magic Missile and the Summon X spells from Tasha's. Maybe one or two others. I am purposely excluding Conjure Animals because I hate it :)

The other spells you might copy will benefit from being upcast, but they don't gain much from it to really make it feel worth it over others.

It does mean that your Continual Flames deletes Darkness spells though. Could be a double edged sword if you rely on devil's sight tactics.

[diplomancer]

The list of spells Limited Wish can replicate that you would want to use with upcasting is pretty limited - generally just Magic Missile and the Summon X spells from Tasha's. Maybe one or two others. I am purposely excluding Conjure Animals because I hate it :)

The other spells you might copy will benefit from being upcast, but they don't gain much from it to really make it feel worth it over others.

It does mean that your Continual Flames deletes Darkness spells though. Could be a double edged sword if you rely on devil's sight tactics.

Yeah, but the Tasha's summons upcast to 6th level are pretty good. Even better if you can cast any of them and choose the one most appropriate to the challenges you're facing.

[Gignere]

Yeah, but the Tasha's summons upcast to 6th level are pretty good. Even better if you can cast any of them and choose the one most appropriate to the challenges you're facing.

Yes and particularly for a warlock there is no other way to upcast those spells to 6th level besides using limited wish.

[animorte]

Limited Wish is so outrageously weak compared to Wish it shouldn’t be debatable. I’m not sure why this concern has presented itself, but here are some notes as a reminder:
- 8th level vs 6th
- 1/LR vs 1d4 days
- Any spell vs spell with the casting time of 1 action.
- Creating alternative specific powerful effect vs not having that option.

Also, I will go ahead and point out the following quote listed under both spells: ”you don't need to meet the requirements in that spell, including costly components: the spell simply takes effect as part of this action.”

One of the requirements of casting a spell is using the spell slot. One of the requirements of up casting is just using a different spell slot. Please don’t make me break this quote down further, but I can…



I don’t think up casting is even remotely close to being too strong considering all of the other limitations and that it’s essentially equivalent to changing 1 prepared spell/spell known every 1d4 days. Meanwhile some classes have the ability to change out their entire list of prepared spells every day.

[diplomancer]

Limited Wish is so outrageously weak compared to Wish it shouldn’t be debatable. I’m not sure why this concern has presented itself, but here are some notes as a reminder:
- 8th level vs 6th
- 1/LR vs 1d4 days
- Any spell vs spell with the casting time of 1 action.
- Creating alternative specific powerful effect vs not having that option.

Also, I will go ahead and point out the following quote listed under both spells: ”you don't need to meet the requirements in that spell, including costly components: the spell simply takes effect as part of this action.”

One of the requirements of casting a spell is using the spell slot. One of the requirements of up casting is just using a different spell slot. Please don’t make me break this quote down further, but I can…



I don’t think up casting is even remotely close to being too strong considering all of the other limitations and that it’s essentially equivalent to changing 1 prepared spell/spell known every 1d4 days. Meanwhile some classes have the ability to change out their entire list of prepared spells every day.

Limited Wish IS very powerful at the level you get it; arguably, relatively more powerful to other level 14 features than Wish is to other 9th spells; no other class gets 2 6th level spell slots, one of them very flexible (much more flexible than you give it credit for, it's much better than preparing your spells at the start of the day) at level 14; you have to be a 19th level full caster for that. I dislike the 1d4 days recharge rate, but more because it's unbalanced depending on campaign style than because it makes the ability underpowered.

But that's not why I started the thread. I started the thread because I don't know the answer to the question, and wanted to know other people's opinions about it. Notably, no one so far has said that it should not be upcastable because that would make it too strong, so I'm not even sure where you're coming from.

[animorte]

-snip-

I agree with this. I know that it is strong, I absolutely love it. I was just making a point for anybody with the misconception that it is somehow better than Wish. The only real thing that is genuinely better is having access to it at level 14, but it’s the capstone. It should be valuable.

Edit: I didn’t realize quite how aggressive that initial post seems (it’s early). My apologies…

And to answer your thread, up casting whatever you choose as 6th level should be perfectly fine. That’s the whole theme of the Warlock class anyway, everything is always up cast.