Making STR more relevant (again)

[KillingTime]

Here's a different idea to bolster STR that I haven't seen in any of the ongoing discussions on the forum.

Why not allow STR to contribute a bonus to HP alongside CON?
Maybe 1/2 STR bonus instead of the full bonus so CON is still primary in this regard. But would give an appreciable bump to martial classes who prioritise STR, making the bigger, beefier builds be able to take more hits than the nimble DEX builds who otherwise have comparable CON scores.
And caster classes who will typically dump STR entirely might even end up with negative modifiers to HP if they go below 8.

CON is still important (HP and loads of saves)
DEX builds lose nothing at all (assuming they don't dump STR below 8).
STR builds gain an appreciable survivability boost on top of their heavy armour and typically high CON.
Caster classes again lose nothing unless they significantly dump STR.

[Willie the Duck]

Here's a different idea to bolster STR that I haven't seen in any of the ongoing discussions on the forum.

Why not allow STR to contribute a bonus to HP alongside CON?
Maybe 1/2 STR bonus instead of the full bonus so CON is still primary in this regard. But would give an appreciable bump to martial classes who prioritise STR, making the bigger, beefier builds be able to take more hits than the nimble DEX builds who otherwise have comparable CON scores.
And caster classes who will typically dump STR entirely might even end up with negative modifiers to HP if they go below 8.

CON is still important (HP and loads of saves)
DEX builds lose nothing at all (assuming they don't dump STR below 8).
STR builds gain an appreciable survivability boost on top of their heavy armour and typically high CON.
Caster classes again lose nothing unless they significantly dump STR.

As a houserule, it seems fine (having 1/2 of a bonus that is already derived by halving another number is rather clunky, but it gets the job done). If discussing what we think a future or theoretical edition ought use, I would say no. Too much convolution (no, not that it is hard complexity, only that it is unnecessary complexity). Honestly, the way to make Strength more relevant is to actually make strength more relevant -- make STR-melee classes (and/or heavy armor) a regularly optimal choice; make Str-saves a more prominent defense that comes up in-game; make encumbrance a system with which people want to engage --somehow*; make athletics and pushing and shoving and jumping and whatever else you can leverage (heh) a strength score into doing more of the game system; etc.
*other than gp=xp, I don't think D&D ever had a good way of doing this.

[Skrum]

Str is a great stat. I think people are getting twisted around by theoretical builds. Sure SS/CBE builds are numerically the strongest pure martial build, but lots and lots and lots of players want to play str-based melee characters, and the system supports it.

The "weakness" of strength builds isn't a lack of numbers to do what they're supposed to. It's that a lot of strength builds are fighters and barbarians, which are on the weaker side among all the classes. Conversely, if paladin was the go-to image of a strength character, I think a lot of these complaints go away.

[Psyren]

Str is a great stat. I think people are getting twisted around by theoretical builds. Sure SS/CBE builds are numerically the strongest pure martial build, but lots and lots and lots of players want to play str-based melee characters, and the system supports it.

The "weakness" of strength builds isn't a lack of numbers to do what they're supposed to. It's that a lot of strength builds are fighters and barbarians, which are on the weaker side among all the classes. Conversely, if paladin was the go-to image of a strength character, I think a lot of these complaints go away.

Seriously, this. I get that the release schedule is slow right now but all these threads feel like they're just desperately hunting for something, anything to talk about.

[Willie the Duck]

Str is a great stat. I think people are getting twisted around by theoretical builds. Sure SS/CBE builds are numerically the strongest pure martial build
I think there are two places where people make the comparisons -- the SS/CBE build which gets most everything the PAM/GWM build gets, plus a more synergizing fighting style and getting to attack from potential safe distances; and then the featless fighter with dueling style who could be a Dex-build with a rapier and get better initiative and a more-used save (and Dex-based skills), or a Str-build with a longsword, axe, or warhammer and get Athletics (instead of acrobatics and stealth) and one more point of AC eventually. In both cases, Dex does seem better on paper

but lots and lots and lots of players want to play str-based melee characters, and the system supports it.

The "weakness" of strength builds isn't a lack of numbers to do what they're supposed to. It's that a lot of strength builds are fighters and barbarians, which are on the weaker side among all the classes. Conversely, if paladin was the go-to image of a strength character, I think a lot of these complaints go away.
I think if fighters and barbarians were considered stronger overall, and the discussion around paladins (when discussing mechanical strength) wasn't how much hexblade to dip*, there would definitely be less discussion about this. Much of the overall difference does get washed out in the actual play variability.
*and maybe a third caveat of str-based ranged attacks not being quite such a downstep from dex-based. Not that dex-based fighters really do a lot of switch-hitting (with shield-changing taking an action, and CBE already being an optimal choice), but the notion that the ranged Dex-guy can swap bow for rapier while the melee Str-guy swaps halberd for javelin just grates some people the wrong way.

Regardless, given the trouble many have with balancing martials vs. casters in general, pitting Dex- vs. Str- martials against each other makes little sense, so I'm glad the suggestion is making Str more valuable, rather than making Dex-based martials suffer or the like.


Seriously, this. I get that the release schedule is slow right now but all these threads feel like they're just desperately hunting for something, anything to talk about.
I'm not sure that's the reason. Even back in 2e (earliest I was online) there was a constant churn of relitigating these little niggling issues people had with the game system, and I certainly recall a bunch of similar-ish threads in the 3e era when there were new books it seemed like all the time (oftentimes those books didn't really have all that much new interesting material -- part of the problem 5e is trying to resolve-- and thus didn't necessarily have that much to discuss either).

[Skrum]

*If* I was going to try to tip the balance towards strength, I'd do something about opportunity attacks. RAW, melee is dangerous, and it's generally easy to escape melee (many classes make it trivial). If ranged characters were under a lot more threat when someone closed the distance, there would be a more penalizing drawback to giving up AC and effective melee options for range.

Idk what it would look like, but yah, more reward for melees to close the distance/greater penalty for ranged characters that can't stay at range.

Edit: giving adv on opportunity attacks. I kinda like that. Spending your only reaction to whiff (on an attack that probably wasn't going to hit very hard anyway) is a real feel bad moment for the melee that just spent a turn closing the distance.

[windgate]

I wonder if many of these issues would go away if WOTC better distributed significance to each ability score that was independent of class. Make it important enough that people are motivated to avoid having any dump stats at all. Make every class somewhat M.A.D.

just spit balling:

Strength modifies speed
Dex: Initiative as it currently does
Con: hit point like it currently does
Wisdom; vision/hearing range?
Intelligence: Introduce a combat benefit to knowledge checks?
Charisma: Some form of official mechanics and reward for resolving hostile situations with social skills? ex: DC to cuase opponent to flee/surrender when using intimidation based on targets hit-points.

[Skrum]

I wonder if many of these issues would go away if WOTC better distributed significance to each ability score that was independent of class. Make it important enough that people are motivated to avoid having any dump stats at all. Make every class somewhat M.A.D.

just spit balling:

Strength modifies speed
Dex: Initiative as it currently does
Con: hit point like it currently does
Wisdom; vision/hearing range?
Intelligence: Introduce a combat benefit to knowledge checks?
Charisma: Some form of official mechanics and reward for resolving hostile situations with social skills? ex: DC to cuase opponent to flee/surrender when using intimidation based on targets hit-points.

The math of the game doesn't really support that. A character's stat modifier is really important to their success on a given roll on most situations. Being "bad" at something is often a -1 modifier, while being really good at it is +8ish. Boosting that -1 to a +1 takes quite a bit of stat point allocation, but you're still far closer to being really bad at it than good at it.

The system just isn't built to make generalist characters, not if they're mostly rolling dice. This is part of the reason spells are so dominant; they consolidate a ton of stuff into one "check" (your casting stat), or bypass it entirely (spider climb vs climb checks).

[windgate]

The math of the game doesn't really support that. A character's stat modifier is really important to their success on a given roll on most situations. Being "bad" at something is often a -1 modifier, while being really good at it is +8ish. Boosting that -1 to a +1 takes quite a bit of stat point allocation, but you're still far closer to being really bad at it than good at it.

The system just isn't built to make generalist characters, not if they're mostly rolling dice. This is part of the reason spells are so dominant; they consolidate a ton of stuff into one "check" (your casting stat), or bypass it entirely (spider climb vs climb checks).

Yeah, I get that. I've got personal issues with the arguably excessive variance of the d20 on skill checks in general. Id explore other game systems but I haven't gotten around to it. Ideally id like a system where the dice roll variance was smaller and the static roll modifier variance was larger (and less concentrated). That's never going to be D&D though, I just have to accept that.