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nerulean
2007-11-28, 10:05 PM
Good evening, playground. I write seeking help!

We’ve been playing a good vs. evil campaign for about three months now that is just about to reach its head. The idea was that the bad guys would kill each other off and the winner would become the BBEG for the good group who would function like a normal group of PCs, but the vast majority of the evil lot have spectacularly failed to be satisfactorily evil and have instead banded together like a good little group of PCs.

The long and short of it is, in a week’s time we’ll be having a party-on-party battle at 14th ECL, and I could do with your help powering up for it. Pretty much any level of sub-Pun-Pun optimisation is acceptable in this situation, since the other guys are doing it too, but the theme of the characters has to stay the same, and we’re obliged to keep the base class the same. Dragon mag stuff is a-okay. Our group as it stands is:

A half-nymph (DM homebrew template, +2 LA) bard who likes pretty shiny things and is extraordinarily squishy, and has a pet bogun (small construct from MMII) with two levels of rogue.

A half-elf enchanter who is evil but has been geased to be good by the goddess of magic, with necromancy and transmutation barred.

A half-orc fighter who dreams of one day being a paladin but has a distinct lack of charisma.

A killoren swordsage (diamond mind with some setting sun and desert wind) who wants to stop the evil overwhelming his forest.

We know we’re up against a dread necromancer with a small horde of undead minions, a sorcerer who favours invisibility tactics, a warmage with little tactical ability but vast damage output, and a somewhat underpowered blackguard. They’re all packing tomb-tainted soul so they’re healed by negative energy, and they’re throwing around revenances.

There will also be a neutral third party of four fourteenth ECL characters there who’re trying to take the same item from the evil group that we’re aiming for. All we know about them is that their front man is a cleric, which doesn’t bode too well for us.

So, any tips and tactics you can give us would be very welcome indeed. It’s going to be a tough fight, but one I’d love to win.

Balkash
2007-11-28, 10:27 PM
Inviso? True Seeing
Undead? Get the Half-Orc into a Paladin, and turn turn turn
High Damage? Bestow curse, Bestow contaigon. anything that lowers his attack roll or damage roll. In either case, just try to Otiluke's Resiliant Sphere the blackguard and the warmage, so you can deal with them later.

[edit] Hope the 3rd party cleric will turn the undead for you, then you wait for the 3rd party to try to off the evil guys for their item, then kill the hell out of the winner of those two.

bugsysservant
2007-11-28, 11:01 PM
I'm too tired to really put much thought into this, but for all around ECL 14 goodness:

Ur-Priest (CDiv) While there magical support comes from a dread necromancer, a sorceror and a (snort) warmage, you can be throwing around NINTH LEVEL SPELLS. Not many, only those from high attributes, but the cheese potential of ninth level spells, even divine spells, is awesome. If you can manage a Wis. of what, 28, you can initiate an infinite gate loop. Or whatever. Use your imagination. As for the build itself, there are some really good ones out there, but its not hard to achieve Ur-Preist by fifth. If nothing else, take factotum with that feat (jack of all trades?) that lets you use the skills as class skills despite multiclassing, than go something that lets you have good fort and will saves. I think binder fits the flavor best, but they lack skill points. Anyway, thats one way. Damn. Just read the one class restriction. If you can get your DM to allow multiclassing, go for it since the flavor is perfect, if not, c'est la vie

Or go DMM CoDZilla. With nightsticks your opponents will be hard pressed to stop a spellcaster where every spell he casts is maximized, persisted, quickened, whatever. Don't forget to persist righteous might, divine power, divine favor, whatever so you will be a bit more resilient. And if you end with turn undead uses (you should) you can work on taking down the dread necro army.

Well, I think I'm incoherent enough to go to bed now. Good luck.

nerulean
2007-11-29, 05:55 AM
We're pretty sure the undead are staying where they are, since our turning capabilities are pretty much null and would be even if the fighter was a full paladin. Probably our best way of dealing with them is taking out the necromancer, which right now we're thinking is the swordsage's job: tumble through the minions, stab caster in face. The problem with that is getting the swordsage to survive the two rounds it will probably take to off the necromancer.

We're allowed to enter the fight with hour per level buffs cast, so we'll all have a nice permanencied True seeing and Disobedience. The real problem is that, while we have a lot of good tactics to counter them, we're not going to survive the rounds until we get all our buffs on. What we could do with is either a quick kill of our own to dish out, or some severely increased survivability coupled with significantly reduced buffing time.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-11-29, 06:57 AM
Scrolls. Scrolls and wands.

The warmage needs to die fast, followed by the necromancer and the sorcerer. Find long-term buffs that you can cast prior to combat, then try to avoid spending any time on buffing. You have 3 casters you need to take out. Spells that rely on fort saves are going to be a big deal. Also, check the cheese lists. There's got to be some stuff on there that you can do.

Roderick_BR
2007-11-29, 07:29 AM
Some quick ideas: For you, check this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040131a and use Sirine's Grace to turn your charisma bonus into deflection bonus. If you feel like risking yourself, you can run over to the warmage and reduce his spellcasting abilities (touch attack deals int damage, fort save to resist). Use See Invisibility if he's invisible, and get yourself invisible with Improved Invisibility and add some Blur effect. See if the enchantress can charge you with some energy resistance spells.
Get a lantern of revealing to reveal invisible enemies if True Seeing is too costly, or simple Invisibility Purge.
Use improved invisibility and fly(or overland flight) onto the swordsage, and he'll become a stealth killing jet. Invisibility against undead works great here. He can fly over the undead, and hit the necro's head in, and stay out of the zombie's reach. Even better, use a reach weapon to stay well over their heads.
For the sorcerer, it may be tricky. The best bet is to let the half-orc loose on it, using some boosts (strength boosts, protections, mind-blank) and let him squish the sorcerer.
The black guard may be easier to fight after you take everyone else down. Use Grease or Solid Fog to keep him busy. After that, keep the half-orc and the swordsage attacking him with reach weapons, invisible, and probably flying.

And don't forget Protection from Evil for everyone.

Keld Denar
2007-11-29, 07:37 AM
If your Bard can take a single level of Sublime Chord, he'll get access to some wiz/sorc spells. The key spell he's looking for is Solid Fog. Both your enchanter and bard then need to spam the hell out of solid fog, catching as many of your foes in clouds. The fog blocks line of sight AND line of effect. Depending on placement, that gives you a couple rounds that the sorc and warmage won't be raining fiery destruction upon your heads. If the Sorc and Warmage start close together, hit them both with an Evards from the enchanter, and then a Solid Fog from the bard/SC. This will completely negate all movement by them, since they will probably fail vs the grapple, and even if they succeed, they can only move 5' every other round, if they aren't regrappled. Also, at ECL 14, your enchanter will even have Freezing Fog, from SC, which is a high level Grease combined with a Solid Fog. The trapped foe has to make a reflex save or fall down, and if they succeed, can only move 5'. If they fail, they can't move (due to being prone in a solid fog).

Its doubtful that the DN will have incorporial undead with, but it would be worth it for your enchanter to take the Transdimensional Spell feat, or buy Gauntlets of Ghostfighting from MIC. That way, he could drop a Transdimensional Web on any incorporial undead, since by ECL 14, the DN could potentially be packing a ghost, or a couple spectres. Consider equipping everyone who fights with Least Truedeath Crystals, its extra damagae vs undead for less than 1k gold each. Its not much, but it might make the difference. Your 1/2 orc fighter might consider a Lesser or Greater Truedeath if you suspect incorporial undead.

If you can drop anyone in a Telekenetic Sphere, a good target would be the warmage or the sorc. Hit him with it after he gets out of the fog, and then push him back into the Solid Fog. He'll probably have among the lowest Reflex Save of anyone there, since the Blackguard will have Divine Grace and the DN won't really need LoS for his undead to do a lot of damage.

EDIT: I don't know what the class makeup of your 1/2 orc fighter is, but if you can have him pick up all 5 levels of Occult Slayer, that would make life very uncomfortable for the sorc and warmage. Immunity to mind affecting spells is awesome. Non-detection means that if invisible, the OS can not be found, even by See Invisibility and Trueseeing, since they are divinations that attempt to locate him. The bonus damage vs 3/4 of the party will help, and if you can get him into position via Invisibility, a well placed Vicious Strike could probably 1shot either of the 2 casters.

I forget which school Benign Transposition is, but if it isn't Transmutation, have the enchanter take Quicken Spell Metamagic. Quickened Benign Transposition is a 5th level spell, and can be abused with a familiar. Have your familiar move (fly preferably, via raven, owl, or hawk) up to a foe, and then Quicken BT the 1/2 orc with the familar. Then the 1/2 orc can full attack a foe without wasting an action to charge. Unless he has pounce. Which he probably should have or get. Then just swap the Swordsage, and watch him slicendice which ever target doesn't get Solid Fogged.

Also, your enchanter should have Anticipate Teleport up. Its a 3rd level spell from SC, and it stops people from porting in around you, or at least buys you a round to move and Solid Fog the landing point, since AT tells you where the foe will be porting to.

I could give a lot more info if I knew more info. Things like exact class makeup, where flexability for customization lies, and how much liquid cash the party has to burn. I <3 mental exercises in D&D combat.

Triaxx
2007-11-29, 10:45 AM
Tomb-tainted... Negative energy heals, does postive energy damage? If so then the Bard could spam healing spells, while the Swordsage and Fighter concentrate on the Dread Necromancer. The Enchanter's job is to pin down the Sorceror, resilient sphere the Warmage, then start spamming magic missiles down the Sorceror's throat. Use Dispel magic when he uses the shield spell he's supposed to have. If he doesn't wait until after the fight to point that out to the DM. :smallbiggrin:

If the bard isn't able to spam healing, try to Fascinate the Blackguard, and turn him on his friends. If you'd like you could try to Fascinate the Warmage, and turn him on his pals, or the Necromancer's skeletons.

Keld Denar
2007-11-29, 11:28 AM
Tomb-tainted... Negative energy heals, does postive energy damage?
Yes, Tomb-tainted reverses your polarity to positive and negative energy. Therefore, while negative energy heals, positive energy does damage.



If so then the Bard could spam healing spells.

This is not a very valid tactic, since the bards only really get cure light. 1d8+5 isn't really that valid of an approach.

Now, if the party had a 14th level Radiant Servant, who could drop Empowered Cure Light Wounds Mass with the Augmented Healing feat, you'd be averaging around 50 damage to all targets per round, on top of healing your party for a like amount. Sadly, the party nerulean mentioned does not include a cleric at all, much less a Radiant Servant. That would toast them very quickly.

Ganurath
2007-11-29, 11:42 AM
Bands of Steel is a 3rd level Conjuration spell from Complete Arcane that would do wonders to disrupt their casters, so the evil enchanter may want to invest in that. I would also advise summoning minions and using cur- oh, barred schools. Any way to weaken an opponent's Will saves other than Necrotrans?

Keld Denar
2007-11-29, 12:03 PM
Bands of Steel is a 3rd level Conjuration spell from Complete Arcane that would do wonders to disrupt their casters, so the evil enchanter may want to invest in that. I would also advise summoning minions and using cur- oh, barred schools. Any way to weaken an opponent's Will saves other than Necrotrans?

Crushing Dispair is a bard spell. It negatively impacts a lot of things, most of which are d20 based, so it might affect saves. Unfortunately, it is also a will save, and only a 2nd level spell.

Mind Fog also affects will saves. Its 5th level I think? That might be an interesting course of action if your opponents start grouped. Whoever fails their save VS Mind Fog gets hit with a Dominate Person with a hefty save penalty. Suddenly a 4v4 fight becomes a 5v3 gang beating. This would only really work if the enemies start grouped together and you can hit most of them with the fog. Otherwise you would be better off just casting Dominate Person twice, since if a single target saves well vs Mind Fog, they'll save just as well vs the Dominate Person. Mind Fog would also be great if you can catch multiple targets in a Solid Fog with overlapping areas. The Solid Fog will keep them in the Mind Fog for a bit longer than standard. The second they make it out of the Mind Fog, blast em with Dominate.

Deepblue706
2007-11-29, 01:48 PM
Summon a Hut. Or get someone to do it for you. Or, actually make a hut.

Put a lot of traps inside.

Lure your enemies in.

GG.

Triaxx
2007-11-29, 02:39 PM
True, but 6-13 damage is significant on the already low HP of a caster, such as the sorceror, or Necromancer. It's also enough to disrupt casting if you prepare it.

In any case, Fascinate is a better strategy anyway. On the other hand, if she goes invisible, and can get in position, she can backstab the sorceror.

Also consider trying to ally with the neutral party, even temporarily. Eight on four is much better odds.

nerulean
2007-11-30, 07:49 AM
These are some awesome tactics coming out here. Having just seen our batman in another campaign spam the fury out of solid fog to great effect, I'm liking the idea of picking up the spell. Mind Fog is on our list too, as is dropping a fascinate on as many people as possible before initiative is rolled, since everyone on the field will be failing that throw except on a 20. We know we've got a talking section before the actual combat (and if we're really lucky, the warmage will be killed by the cleric-who-I-discovered-is-actually-a-favoured-soul during it) so with any luck the blackguard will be on our side, since of our opponents I think he's the most likely to actually properly roleplay the consequences of a Suggestion. I think it's more likely we'll be able to pick off people from our opposing party to join us than get one of the other parties to join us en masse. The evil guys are a very disparate group, whereas the neutral party is cohesive and has already fought against us in the past, and the favoured soul can make the sense motive on my bluff check.

I can tell you a bit more about some of our opponents now. Warmage is a half chaos dragon with a +3 LA, so she's down on casting power. Her melée is apparently atrocious and she's somehow contrived to have her will save be her lowest, estimate +7/+8ish, which means she's failing saves against our cantrips more than half the time. That's got to mean her con and thus her hitpoints are pretty hefty as a result, though.

Necro is fairly underpowered as far as undead go, since she's been having to pick them up in game and hasn't just been able to cherry-pick the ones she wants. We're pretty sure they're all corporeal, though there may be a hydra in there.

Blackguard is by all accounts very underpowered, but all we know specifically is that he's got an arsenal of mundane weapons and the quick draw feat, for some reason. He's hefty on the old hitpoints front, but that's not too huge an obstacle.

We know next to nothing about the sorcerer, since she hasn't been bragging about her overpowered abilities to us. She has a ridiculously low AC (15, I think) so by derivation her reflex save is bound to be awful, and I don't think her con's too hot either, since she has the lowest HP of the group.

I think we can get everyone there but the warmage with 'person' spells, whereas we have two fey and the neutral party is full of dragons.

The neutral party is packing a favoured soul half green dragon, so level 11, a hexblade of unknown level, and some form of big melée smasher, as well as one other complete unknown.

As for our customisation level, the enchanter is going straight through master specialist and is fairly attached to all his feats, so he has mainly spell list to play with. The fighter is built from the ground up but might be open to one or two feat suggestions. Swordsage has room about one more feat and hasn't yet chosen his manoeuvres above ninth character level, but is so far focussing on the insightful strikes, the nightmare blades, and never getting hit by a combination of pearl of black doubt and other AC boosts. He's wis/dex and has concentration and tumble coming out his pointy killoren ears.

The bard is my character, so she's the one I can accept the most help for: as far as she goes, she's pretty much able to change any of her feats and spell list and PRC as she needs, so long as she still has Miser's Envy on her spells, which is her major and my favourite tactic. She's STR 9, DEX 16, CON 10, INT 16, WIS 10, CHA 26 and gets half CHA mod to saves and as deflection to AC, which makes her beautifully single stat dependent.

I'm looking at bard 6/???/Sublime Chord 2. I'm thinking about sticking some War Weaver in there so we can get a quick Protection from Evil down on the whole party as well as another buff, maybe good old Fly. I've also tossed around the idea of a couple of levels of warblade to decrease my squishiness, but I think it's too far out of character concept for me to bear.

Spells-wise, any suggestions anyone has for hour-per-level buffs would be more than welcome, as well as what to pick up with the Sublime Chord levels. I'll be at four 4th and two 5th level spells known from there.

I have about 45,000 GP to splurge in total, and can use creation rather than purchase cost for the biggest hit on the wallet. I naturally want my CHA as high as possible, and our melée combatants would appreciate me getting the old inspire courage up, which may mean the vest of legends from the DMGII, as well as badge of valour, as well as the feat Song of the Heart. Since I may spend a fair amount of time invisible, I may take Lingering Song or buy a harmonising blade so people can't pinpoint me by listening, although if anyone can think of a better buff than hiding then I'd love to hear it. I guess I do have access to Polymorph... I should be able to spam UMD as well, but probably can't get druid spells off reliably since I'll be rolling to emulate the ability score.

Crow
2007-11-30, 08:34 AM
What are those gloves that act like a Glove of Storing but allow you to use the item while it's in shrunk down? (book/page reference would be nice too)

Load some of those puppies with Runestaffs to enlarge your arsenal against these guys.

Keld Denar
2007-11-30, 09:37 AM
Nerulean, sounds like you guys are in a pretty strong position. As for your character, something interesting to try would be to go into SC asap, and then take a few levels of IotSV. I don't know if that's too low of a blow to stoop to, but it would go VERY far to lower your squishy factor. That and GET AN AMULET OF HEALTH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! I don't know about you, but I simply can't play a character with lower than a 14 CON. There is just too much risk to get attached to a character, only to lose him/her to a botched save/die or a stray full attack. Between those 2 things, you'll be almost as caster as the enchanter, while maintaining the bardyness of your roots. For 4th level spells, I would highly suggest Dim Door, Evards, Eneveration, and Fear. For 5th, your best bets would be Solid Fog and Feeblemind. Between your 26 CHA and the save penalty for Feeblemind, it will be impossible for the warmage to save since he has a low will save. Even the sorc could have a tough time, if shes straight sorc and hasn't PRCed, her will save will only be about +8-10 at 14th level. That'll turn them right off like a lamp.

I picked Eneveration as that'll be the best spell to use vs the Favored Soul, if you have to fight him/her. It'll drop its spells/saves/hp quickly after a casting or 2, and make him more managable.

Don't forget to dim door as a group. I'd suggest staying close to each other, because when you dim door, you can take 1 additional target per 4 levels. You'll be CL 14 (I think), so you can take your whole party with you. That way, you can have your party melee delay his action until you dim door, and then take a full attack as you dim door behind your opponents. Dim door ends your turn, but not that of people who come with you. Staying close together leaves you kind of vulnerable to AoE spells, but hopefully you'll be protected from most. If you get Solid Fogged first, you can just dim door out as a party, since you only need to know a direction and a distance, you don't need line of effect.

I'm away from books atm, but when I get home from work, I'll look into crafting you a really nice Bard/SC/IotSV build. I think you'll be able to get up to immediate warding by ECL 14, which would be killer.

Roderick_BR
2007-11-30, 09:53 AM
What are those gloves that act like a Glove of Storing but allow you to use the item while it's in shrunk down? (book/page reference would be nice too)

Load some of those puppies with Runestaffs to enlarge your arsenal against these guys.
Casting Glove, Dungeon Master Guide II, Pg 266. 25,000 GPs. You can, as an standard action, activate a magic in a stored item as if you had used it, including scrolls and potions (when they are retrieved, they show up as normally used).

Edit: Also Magic Item Compendium pg 84.

Doresain
2007-11-30, 01:31 PM
well about the DN...nobody seems to realize that it can summon incorporeal undead...not to mention by that time he/she will have a fear aura, DR, and some other nifty abilities...dont underestimate that one

Keld Denar
2007-11-30, 01:57 PM
well about the DN...nobody seems to realize that it can summon incorporeal undead...not to mention by that time he/she will have a fear aura, DR, and some other nifty abilities...dont underestimate that one

Actually, I mentioned that in my first post and suggested Gauntlets of Ghostfighting from MIC to counter, but nerulean declined that by mentioning the DN has all corporial undead. While true that he could summon some using one of the various summon undead spells, thats actions hes spending instead of other nasty effects.

Plus, a simple deathward effect (armor enhancement from MIC, +1 equiv) will protect against the 1st round of incorporial undead attacks, and you shouldn't need much more than that to either dispatch the DN, or eliminate the threat.

Doresain
2007-11-30, 02:08 PM
i just think the DN has a little bit more potential than "ZOMG UNDEDZ!11!!!!"

Keld Denar
2007-11-30, 02:18 PM
i just think the DN has a little bit more potential than "ZOMG UNDEDZ!11!!!!"

The fear effect is mindaffecting, which is completely suppressed by the new and improved FAQ reading of protection from evil, which nerulean specifically stated that they would all be aquiring.

The negative energy burst is not much more than a tickle, so if he's doing that, GREAT, cause hes not doing other stuff.

Most of the DNs spells that arn't summon undead require targeting, which he won't be able to do if he gets Solid Fogged like I suggested. By the time he gets out of the Solid Fog, his friends will probably either be dead, feebleminded, and/or dominated following my strats. Then he'll get gang beat by the swordsage and the 1/2 orc. And DN's DR is pretty pitiful really. Almost not noticable next to the massive amount of damage that the 1/2 orc and swordsage will be able to pump out.

nerulean
2007-11-30, 02:35 PM
I was trying to get to IotSV but you can't do it efficiently at 12th level, and irritatingly because of how this is working I can't buy the LA out. Grr.

I'm thinking a potion of endurance to up the con, since someone's found a daft item in Dragon that lets you drink a potion as a move item. That lets me take a cloak +6 at creation price to get the charisma up to 32 with 27,000 GP left to spend.

Solid fog >> Mind fog >> Dominate person/Feeblemind is probably going to be our strongest combo against the evil party. I'll pick up the first and I know our enchanter's got the rest covered. A Miser's Envy on the warmage who won't get hit by dominate can send her running after whoever else is causing trouble on the battlefield and hopefully make her waste a few spells along the way, not to mention knocking a few hitpoints off someone else.

Of course, all this really relies on me winning initiative, since the old Celerity >> Timestop trick doesn't work until you actually have ninth level spells, and having a person dazed in the middle of combat is probably not our best plan ever.

I agree that the DN is nasty, possibly the biggest threat on their side because she's well aware of the use of her abilities. I'm a bit concerned by her Greater Harm. We want to take her down rather than the undead, since killing any of them sets off a burst of negative energy that heals her too. The swordsage can do it in a round if he gets lucky, but that's a fairly big if considering the aforementioned common sense. He's probably our first target for the fog, ideally while he's standing near enough that we can get the sorc too.

Doresain
2007-11-30, 02:49 PM
I agree that the DN is nasty, possibly the biggest threat on their side because she's well aware of the use of her abilities. I'm a bit concerned by her Greater Harm. We want to take her down rather than the undead, since killing any of them sets off a burst of negative energy that heals her too. The swordsage can do it in a round if he gets lucky, but that's a fairly big if considering the aforementioned common sense. He's probably our first target for the fog, ideally while he's standing near enough that we can get the sorc too.

well youre gunna have to deal with the undead at some point...killing the controller only makes the free-roamers...

Keld Denar
2007-11-30, 02:59 PM
I was trying to get to IotSV but you can't do it efficiently at 12th level, and irritatingly because of how this is working I can't buy the LA out. Grr.

Yeah, you wouldn't have made it to IotSV4 when you get immediate warding, which is what you really need.



I'm thinking a potion of endurance to up the con, since someone's found a daft item in Dragon that lets you drink a potion as a move item. That lets me take a cloak +6 at creation price to get the charisma up to 32 with 27,000 GP left to spend.


Just hope the sorc doesn't get dispel happy. It wouldn't be unreasonable for him to have Dispel Magic and a lesser rod of chaining. Is he the blasty sort? Or more the batman sort?



Solid fog >> Mind fog >> Dominate person/Feeblemind is probably going to be our strongest combo against the evil party. I'll pick up the first and I know our enchanter's got the rest covered. A Miser's Envy on the warmage who won't get hit by dominate can send her running after whoever else is causing trouble on the battlefield and hopefully make her waste a few spells along the way, not to mention knocking a few hitpoints off someone else.

Of course, all this really relies on me winning initiative, since the old Celerity >> Timestop trick doesn't work until you actually have ninth level spells, and having a person dazed in the middle of combat is probably not our best plan ever.


I'd suggest you get a few Pearl of Power 2s and a Lesser Rod of Extend and have the enchanter cast Heroics on everyone. The spell gives the target a fighter bonus feat for 10min/level. Extended should be long enough. The feat you should all pick up is Improved Initiative. That and your chanter should cast Nerveskitter (1st level, SC) on either himself or you, depending on who's base initiative is higher. The first one of you to act between the 2 of you should Solid Fog. If you can afford a Belt of Battle (12,000g, MIC) you could even get off 2 Solid Fogs in one round, and 4 if you both had Belts and won initiative (or start progressing the Mind Fog >> Dominitate combo).

EDIT: If it doesn't cost you a spell level (you need 5th level spells for Solid Fog!) get a single level in Marshal. Get the motivate Dex aura, and abuse the hell out of that 32 int. You are granting a +11 initiative bonus to your whole party, and the Heroicsed Imp Init makes it +15, Nerveskitter means one person has +20, and that's before actual dextarity bonus and the d20 roll are added in. Get this ability ONLY if it doesn't cost you your access to 5th level spells.



I agree that the DN is nasty, possibly the biggest threat on their side because she's well aware of the use of her abilities. I'm a bit concerned by her Greater Harm. We want to take her down rather than the undead, since killing any of them sets off a burst of negative energy that heals her too. The swordsage can do it in a round if he gets lucky, but that's a fairly big if considering the aforementioned common sense. He's probably our first target for the fog, ideally while he's standing near enough that we can get the sorc too.

If you go for the deathward armor enchantment that I mentioned (MIC +1 equiv) for your armor and/or shield, you'll be protected from the first 1-2 negative energy effects per day. That includes incorp undead touches AND spells like Greater Harm and/or Finger of Death. This will buy you an extra round if you don't win initiative.

Also of note would be the Energy Immunity armor/shield upgrade (MIC +1 equiv). Once a day it gives you immunity to the flavor of energy damage of your choice for a full minute. This'll eat the warmages first round of blasting as well, unless he's packing energy admixture (unlikely) or force effects (low damage). +1 deathward, energy immunity armor is just over 9k gold, on a mithril buckler for just under 10k.

meet shield
2007-11-30, 03:09 PM
Like the name says, I'm only a little meat shield, or maybe tankof don't know very more of english, so I'll try to propose my idea only for the party's fighter, the half-Orc.
For me, He have to do one thing: smash the undeads And the blackguards in one round, and then go to kill the warmage (cause I think the warmage is far from him, at the end intelligence is his second point to power up...).

I think a funny and cheesy combo for do it is ( i use the fractionary base attack variant, ask for this to your DM):

first level: barbarian (UA/totemist variant: at first level you gain pounce and rage. Rage give you a +2AC to dodge, +4str, a penality of -2 to all your melee attack and an extra attack whit your higher melee attack bonus)
two feats (for two flaws): i don't know the english name of this feats, but one give you a +2str +2Cos in rage (EVERY KIND OF RAGE) and one give you the possibility, one time for rage, to receive one negative effect one turn later (like charme or similar, and death magic effect too).

second & third levels: fighter, standard version.
three feats: power attack, cleave, extense rage

fourth and fifth level: rogue, (no strike attack but fighter's extra feats version)
two feats: proficiency (minotaur's hammer, 2d6 medium size, 19-20/x4, two hands weapon, 1,5m) and proficiency( longe weapon's, you can use your weapon at +1,5m if you decide it at the beginning of your turn)

6th level: psionic warrior, standard version
two feats: improved cleave, destructive rage

7th level, paladin of the freedom (CB) (no caster-extra feats variant)
one feat: proficiency(gold weapon, 3k mo, damage like one superior size then effective)

8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th levels: frenzied berserker
feats: improved critical, improved push

13th level: psionic warrior.
feats: shock trooper

14th level ranger ( enemy:caster)
Oh, my little little invisible warmage, here you are. bash. end of the warmage.

so, round for round:

1st: charge, away from the other start rage and fury (for a total of +14str +4co +extra attack -2ca) complete attack(pounce), with shock trooper and power attack -13 (max) for a +39 damage only this and a weapon of do base damage 3d6 17-20/x4...enlarge person is not a bad idea, and with extreme cleave (frenzied berserker 2nd, is the name it's wrong) and improved cleave and 3m area kill every undeads and blackguards do you need, firstly the powerless.

2nd charge and kill the caster invisible, same modus operandi (if you can't, cast a 1st level power psichic warrior for gain a +3m to velocity in a quick action and then run at base velocity 15m (don't take complete armor, you don't need AC and don't take the flaw slow)!

3rd round: charge and kill the caster invisible, if you don't do this at the 2nd round, or turn around and find the necromancer, then charge him. if you can't, cast and run.

later, go to kill the warmage if he is alive.

possible problem: in rage and fury you are simply immortal. But exist one simple enchantment of delate they: you need a caster of prepare the action (counter spell).
Otherwise, whit the 1st level feat, you can ignore it for one round. If your party attack with the surprise round for you, this meat shield will kill the invisible caster. then, he lose the rage and the fury, but he continue to use a super weapon, a super bonus to damage to power attack and nemesis (caster)... he'll don't have problem.

nerulean
2007-12-01, 03:49 PM
Thanks for the suggestions, guys!

I'm going Bard 7/War Weaver 3/Sublime Chord 2 for 9th level bard casting, 2nd level SC and CL16. Beginning of the battle I'll be dropping a proc evil and fly as a move action through quiescent weaving, then solid fogging whatever looks nastiest. If necessary, I'll spam the belt of battle to get another one off. That leaves me with two spare fogs, immunity to attempts at external control, and airborne, while hopefully 80% of my opponents will be stuck in a cloud.

I expect the favoured soul will be dispelling a lot of this, but as long as he's doing that he's not doing anything else and we can pick off whoever's left out in the open uninterrupted. I've new reason to suspect he'll have true seeing up, which is a shame because it gets rid of all the obvious buffs to stop me getting smooshed.

Triaxx
2007-12-01, 10:25 PM
Another little trick I remember is using Mass Cure Light Wounds... on the enemy. Pure evil. :smallbiggrin:

If the Favored Soul is going to start dispelling things, and you're going to have to fight them anyway, use the belt of battle to prepare your character to interrupt anytime the FS tries to cast, probably using a bow. Won't always work, but it'll keep the FS busy.

Here's a little homebrew to offer up to the DM, and see if he'll let you have one, or add the enchantment.

Singing Blade
Cost: 5,000gp, +1 blade or better, Bard Song.
Effect: A Singing Blade may be crafted in one of three ways. It may be crafted with beneficial bard song, defensive bard song, or offensive bard song. +1 enchantment.

Beneficial Bard song causes the blade to perform as it is swung, increasing the luck and attack rolls of it's wielder by +1, and increasing their will save vs. charm type spells by two.

Defensive Bard song causes the blade to perform as long as it is drawn, usually softly and in the background, but increasing in volume and tempo as enemies approach. However, the wielder must succeed on a listen check to detect the change in the song.

Offensive Bard song is often described as nails on a chalk board. It serves to distract opponents, and anyone with in 10' of the wielder must make a concentration check when attempting to attack or cast spells. Movement actions are unaffected. The wielder is also immune to the swords effects.

Singing blades can be dual wielded, but only the Main hand weapon gives it's bonuses. Offensive Blades may force an additional concentration check to counteract countersong, at the DM's discretion. Otherwise countersong applies as normal.

Keld Denar
2007-12-04, 02:16 PM
Thanks for the suggestions, guys!

I'm going Bard 7/War Weaver 3/Sublime Chord 2 for 9th level bard casting, 2nd level SC and CL16. Beginning of the battle I'll be dropping a proc evil and fly as a move action through quiescent weaving, then solid fogging whatever looks nastiest. If necessary, I'll spam the belt of battle to get another one off. That leaves me with two spare fogs, immunity to attempts at external control, and airborne, while hopefully 80% of my opponents will be stuck in a cloud.

I expect the favoured soul will be dispelling a lot of this, but as long as he's doing that he's not doing anything else and we can pick off whoever's left out in the open uninterrupted. I've new reason to suspect he'll have true seeing up, which is a shame because it gets rid of all the obvious buffs to stop me getting smooshed.

nerulean, any updates on this? If it hasn't already taken part, something you can do to counter the dispels is a Ring of Enduring Arcana (CMage). It's pretty cheap, round 6000g if I remember right, takes a finger slot, and increase your caster level by 4 with respect to opposed attemts to dispel your spells. This means you'll be CL 20, requireing a DC 31 dispel check to knock out your buffs. That means a roll of 16 or higher on a Greater Dispel (+15), or undispellable spells for regular Dispel (+10). Throw in an Orange IWIN Stone and maybe a Ring of Arcane Mastery (both give +1 CL each) and you can reduce your chance of being dispelled to almost nothing. Regardless, every round the FS spends trying to dispel you is golden, because that means hes not doing other things (Dictum/Word of Chaos spamming).

nerulean
2007-12-04, 08:35 PM
Hehe, the homebrew's nice, but we're not going to get away with anything that isn't by the book in this battle, since it's PVP.

The buffs are probably going down, since they're being cast from wands, but I shall at this point put on my "I don't mind too much" face. As long as I'm always within 60ft of the ground, a vanishing fly won't hinder me, and I'll know by then if I need the proc evil up. If necessary, I've got a ruin delver's fortune to help me survive save-or-lose until I can get buffs back up, on top of 11/17/18 saves already. I should be okay ;)

Did hear from the player of the DN today that he's just picked up a particularly nasty undead of some description. I'm almost certain it's still corporeal, and my best guess to what it could be is a metallic dragon of some kind, or something similar; the description I got was "lawful anal and more powerful than a lvl 13 character should be able to take on". This hopefully won't matter too terribly much, though, since he also expressed an interest in sneakily switching to our side, along with the sorc. If that happens, we've got every efficient arcane caster on our side of the field and it's really only a question of how many rounds it takes us to win.

The remaining opposition in the neutral party, if you're still interested in what may now be a purely academic challenge, consists of a hexblade, a monk with sneak attack of a 13th level rogue, and a CR9ish chromatic dragon, possibly black.

Battle is tomorrow, wish me luck!

Keld Denar
2007-12-05, 07:40 AM
The buffs are probably going down, since they're being cast from wands, but I shall at this point put on my "I don't mind too much" face. As long as I'm always within 60ft of the ground, a vanishing fly won't hinder me, and I'll know by then if I need the proc evil up. If necessary, I've got a ruin delver's fortune to help me survive save-or-lose until I can get buffs back up, on top of 11/17/18 saves already. I should be okay ;)

I thought you were gonna be pumping fly and prot evil through the weave(war weaver)? I don't think you can do that with spell trigger items such as wands. If you get th ring of Enduring Arcana, you're personally cast spells will be pretty tough to crack. You can also pass the ring around to the Enchanter when he does his daily morning buffs. That way, you'll be pretty dispel proof.


The remaining opposition in the neutral party, if you're still interested in what may now be a purely academic challenge, consists of a hexblade, a monk with sneak attack of a 13th level rogue, and a CR9ish chromatic dragon, possibly black.

Battle is tomorrow, wish me luck!

Eh, I don't think the dragon can present too much challenge. At CR9, it can't be older than juvinile or young adult. Its SR hasn't fully developed, at least not to the level that would challenge a CL16 char, and it probably doesn't have much spellcasting ability. All you have to worry about is its claw/claw/bite/tail/wing/wing combo, which you should be able to suppress with a well aimed slow, heightened if possible. Then just have your melee hit it till it stops moving. The hexblade might be a bit of a problem, if he goes 2hand power attack (full BAB class), but if hes close enough to the dragon at the start, hit him with the slow as well (multitarget spells 4tw!). If he poses a big threat after the first couple rounds, Eneverate and Dominate (hey, that rhymes!). The monk could be annoying, especially if he can get a flank, since flurry and sneak attack can add up quick (7d6 each!). He's also tough to pin down, because he can dim door once at that level. I'd say, hit him with a Solid Fog straight up (if possible) to force his hand. Once he dim doors out of it, hit him again. Once you deal with his allies, come back and beat the pulp out of him. Your 1/2 orc and swordsage shouldn't have much trouble polishing him off solo.

I'd watch your back from the "evil" party though. They might be feigning friendship to get you to lower your guard. Be wary of anyone claiming to be casting a "beneficial" spell on your party. It'll probably be a Finger of Death, and that's not very beneficial! ;)

Anyway, good luck!! Keep us posted on the results!

nerulean
2007-12-05, 08:29 AM
I thought you were gonna be pumping fly and prot evil through the weave(war weaver)? I don't think you can do that with spell trigger items such as wands. If you get th ring of Enduring Arcana, you're personally cast spells will be pretty tough to crack. You can also pass the ring around to the Enchanter when he does his daily morning buffs. That way, you'll be pretty dispel proof.

Unfortunately, being a bard, I can't actually get these spells on my spell list without several levels of Lyric Thaumaturge, which I just don't have space for. The fly is just candy, but the proc evil is something I definitely want up at the beginning of the fight. As far as I can see, though, it should still work with war weaver, since all you have to do for quiescent weaving is designate the tapestry as the target of the spell, and you designate the target when you cast from a wand. Uh, eternal wand, if that makes any difference.

The dragon will be going down to a ray of dizziness if he makes a nuisance of himself, since it shouldn't be high enough level to buff its touch AC to a point where it's even vaguely difficult to hit, then it's just a matter of staying out of its way while the swordsage eats it for dinner. That'll get the hexblade too, neatly avoiding its save bonuses against spells, though he'll be a pain to finish off.

As for the evil party, I'm certainly planning on being wary. My character may have a low wisdom score, but her pet bogun is fairly sensible. ;) The DN told me that he'll be suggesting we just stay out of the way so we don't get hurt, which means his character'll be wasting her spells and risking her undead minions while I stay a long way away and play with some low level save or lose. If they turn on us, we've got all our best tricks left up our sleeves.

... you know, it's frequently been remarked that we're more evil than the evil party...

Keld Denar
2007-12-05, 08:45 AM
Unfortunately, being a bard, I can't actually get these spells on my spell list without several levels of Lyric Thaumaturge, which I just don't have space for. The fly is just candy, but the proc evil is something I definitely want up at the beginning of the fight. As far as I can see, though, it should still work with war weaver, since all you have to do for quiescent weaving is designate the tapestry as the target of the spell, and you designate the target when you cast from a wand. Uh, eternal wand, if that makes any difference.


You could always pick up a ring or ioun stone of spell storing. That way, the enchanter can cast them into the item, and then you could cast them from the item into the weave. That would get you around that issue. Plus, it would give you an extra spell that day to toss out, since you can store it the day before. That would keep your CL up as high as possible, so your buffs aren't dispel fodder.



... you know, it's frequently been remarked that we're more evil than the evil party...

Nobody ever asked about your player alignment. <weg>

nerulean
2007-12-05, 09:39 AM
We are good. As in, good enough to be exalted good. As in, dealing non-lethal damage and stabilising dying enemies good. As in, crying over fallen opponents good. And yet somehow, while the characters are an innocent bard who loves everyone and everything (especially small, fluffy, pretty things), a fighter who wants more than anything in the world to be a rod-up-the-backside paladin, and a wizard who's been uber-geased by the effective goddess of magic to take the most good-aligned course of action in every situation, we the players manage to perpetrate more evil than the supposed bad guys, who are running around and hacking their way through the largely evil-aligned monster manual. :smallamused:

nerulean
2007-12-07, 07:11 AM
The battle has been fought and won, without really breaking a sweat. The DN and sorc joined our side as predicted, and so, with a now daft amount of meatshields, we were never really in trouble.

My solid fog in the first round was counterspelled, so I took advantage of the fact that the dragon used its darkness special ability so I could cast it again in the second round where the pesky counterspeller couldn't see me. That got the entire neutral party, barring the monk, so the favoured soul got some buffs in, but otherwise they were pretty well incapacitated, while the half-orc and the swordsage ate the hexblade.

The monk caused a lot of problems, keeping the sorc, the DN, and all her undead meatshields busy for several rounds of combat until they finally managed to explode it. This wasn't before, however, the DN got a song of discord on the warmage and the blackguard, making them hack lumps out of one another and saving the rest of us from having to pay any attention to them. The warmage abandoned ship long before the end of the battle rather than have her character die, so we were left with the blackguard in a slightly dire hitpoint situation, the favoured soul, and the black dragon.

The favoured soul charged me, doing a whopping 14 points of damage, and then ended up with a half orc in his face thanks to a cunningly-placed benign transposition. While this was going on, the dragon got mobbed by two undead stone giants and an undead hydra, who dealt with it quite efficiently and headed over to join the party chewing on the favoured soul. Then I finally activated the bard song, and the swordsage ran in to lay on the smackdown with 147 points of damage from a greater insightful strike. Needless to say, the dragon went down.

The blackguard was apprehended by the previously mentioned near-goddess of magic in a scene of such awesome roleplaying that I'm really hoping we can convince him to join the good party for next term's fun and games.

Keld Denar
2007-12-07, 07:24 AM
Wow! That sounds pretty awesome! To bad the opposition couldn't have put up a little siffer resistance, though. It always feels great when a hard faught battle is just barly survived. Sounds like some awesome roleplaying though! One thing....



The blackguard was apprehended by the previously mentioned near-goddess of magic in a scene of such awesome roleplaying that I'm really hoping we can convince him to join the good party for next term's fun and games.

Can a Blackguard "fall"? If he does, can he trade Blackguard levels for paladin levels? Do his ex-Blackguard levels give him special bonuses to his Blackguard abilities? LOL!

nerulean
2007-12-07, 08:13 AM
I've got my fingers crossed for a fallen blackguard ;) I know the DM will allow it if the player's interested. It was fun, but I agree it would have been better with a little bit more threat. Ah well, no accounting for poor opposition ;)

Epic_Wizard
2007-12-11, 09:29 AM
That was like when my 18th or so level Wizard cast Transmute Rock to Lava on the ceiling above a black dragon and the thing managed to fail ALL of its saves. Died in like one round. Granted this was a one off dungeon crawl starting at 18th level or so but still...

also Nerulean I LOVE your sig :smallbiggrin: