Automatic damage during grapples and precision damage

[ciopo]

Relevant quotes from the simple RAW thread

Q281

assuming the target is eligible for receiving precision damage, does the automatic damage dealt during successful grapples (such as from snatch feat, or constrict, or other similar abilities) trigger precision damage?


A 281 Yes, it does.


a281 no, it doesn't. There is specific feat that let you add sneak attack to grapple damage (some Wild shape feat, don't remember name).


281 clarification If you are referring to savage grapple, which means that you can add precision damage to damage dealt in a grapple while you are wild shaped, you are correct. It makes dealing damage in a grapple on its own (without fulfilling normal conditions of precision damage otherwise) an eligible vector for precision damage. Normally, someone who is grappled is denied their dex to AC against other enemies but not the person who is grappling them so doesn't apply precision damage.

I had read "assuming the target is eligible for receiving precision damage" to mean that the conditions for precision damage is otherwise met (the grappler has moved 10 feet for skirmish, has a flanking buddy for sneak attack, etc), not asking whether precision damage is added when the conditions aren't met.

ciopo, did you just mean someone who isn't immune to precision damage, or someone who's also flanked or something?

281 clarification
Automatic damage isn't attack, so precision damage shouldn't work, because it adds to attack's damage. Condition doesn't matter.
The specific circumstances is a grappler that is invisible/has total concealment, so supposedly the target is denied DEX-to-AC ( and otherwise not immune / doens't have uncanny dodge / doesn't have true sight etcetera)

If it helps any, the automatic damage feature is listed under "full attack" and not "special attacks/special qualities" of the stat block, but I don't want to say the creature because it's for monster mash :)

the "it isn't an attack?" was the main reason I am asking, I'm going to use my tuesday arcane hierophant dire bear familiar companion as an example : he has snatch/improved snatch/multisnatch and I do cast either displacement or greater invisibility on us both from my arcane side now and then.
Pretend he has assassin stance or -something- that gives him sneak attack.
Snatch on (2 size smaller) grappled targets deals automatic claw/bite damage, personally I identify this as "an attack that automatically hits", rather than "not an attack", but I am in doubt of that, because I can see the argument goign both ways

thanks for the feedback ^^

[Khedrac]

I believe the general rule is that for most forms of precision damge to occur an attack roll is neessary, thus an attach that automatically hits is not subject to precision damage.

That said there are so many forms of precision damage and different rules apply to bonus dice (sneak attack) and flat bonuses (favored enemy) that one has to take it on a case-by-case basis.

Oh look - you have provided specifics - that means we can go into details - thank-you for being so precise - it really healps even if we don't end up agreeing!

So a greater invisible dire bear with improved grab and sneak attack:
Step 1 - make and attack roll, hit and do damage (add sneak attack) then make grapple check (succeed) and start grapple.
Step 2 - grapple to do damage - win check, do you add sneak attack?

Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike
Forget the non-lethal part - you are a bear and other rules apply; the key part is the passage I have underlined.

I think that RAW is that because this is explicitly not an attack roll ("in place of") you don't get sneak attack, however sicne there is an opposed roll it's not an unreasonable house rule to allow it.