OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Dragonus45]

Heck yea Modrons! This is gonna be fun.

[Blue Griffin]

What is the other side of his family? I don’t remember what’s his full lineage is.

[Fyraltari]

Oh this is great! nobody reads the user license agreement. Poor Redcloak.

So what is that thing? The Lawful equivalent of a Deva/Fiend? And it takes a part of your soul to summon that? That sounds more like a Fiendish thing. Then again, I suppose bureaucracy is soul-crushing.

Can someone explain to me the joke the roach makes in the third panel? I'm guessing it's base-ball related?


What is the other side of his family? I don’t remember what’s his full lineage is.

He's a Lawful Evil Cleric. He's been leaning hard on his Evil spells, but he also has Lawful tricks up his sleeve.

[Kark]

I'm glad that Mike Wazowski still continues to get work, even if this kind of work is the exact opposite of his previous line.

[hamishspence]

I love the joke on legalese.




So what is that thing? The Lawful equivalent of a Deva/Fiend? And it takes a part of your soul to summon that? That sounds more like a Fiendish thing. Then again, I suppose bureaucracy is soul-crushing.

I figure it's just "XPs are part of the soul"

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

XP Cost
1,000 XP (only for the calling creatures function).

EDIT: Ninjaed.

[Nibelung]

So what is that thing? The Lawful equivalent of a Deva/Fiend? And it takes a part of your soul to summon that? That sounds more like a Fiendish thing.

Gate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) consumes XP to be cast.

[Ionathus]

Oh my gosh. I never would have expected modrons to make another appearance! This is awesome!

[ellindsey]

What is the other side of his family? I don’t remember what’s his full lineage is.

Not his literal family, but his alignment. He's Lawful Evil, and rather than summoning Evil creatures, he's summoning Lawful ones.

[dancrilis]

I wonder if Redcloak will pay attention to the agreement or if this will come back to mess with him.

[JustAnotherSoul]

I wonder if they're going to point out Redcloaks fallacies here too xD

[Peelee]

I wonder if they're going to point out Redcloaks fallacies here too xD

Why? I woudlnt expect them to have an encyclopedic knowledge on Redcloak's behaviors and statements.

[glowface]

What is the other side of his family? I don’t remember what’s his full lineage is.
Not literal family. These are kins of Redcloak spiritually. Well, alignment-wise.
These are not sharing his evilness (as fiends do). They share his lawfulness.

These are modrons, the otherworldly embodiments of law and order. The same way fiends are epitomes of evil, angels (such as devas) embody goodness, or slaads are incarnates of chaos. They are quasi-mechanical creatures, living in Mechanus (Nirvana), a clockwork plane of existence. They are very hierarchical, with somewhat geometric-shaped creatures representing various levels in the hierarchy. Monodrons are the most simple (such as the Terms of Service chanter here), duodrons above them, tridrons above, then quadrons, pentadrons if I remember correctly.

The main guy is way up in the hierarchy. It's one of their leading entities, who aexist in finite numbers. I may be wrong, the big guy may be a Secundus, one of the four seconds-in-command of the whole modron society, effectively rulers of huge sections of Mechanus, subordinate only to Primus himself.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Why? I woudlnt expect them to have an encyclopedic knowledge on Redcloak's behaviors and statements.

They're entities of pure Law, not pure Logic. So long as he abides by the terms being chanted there's no reason to point out further inconsistencies.

Although that feels like a fun punchline in and of itself.

"Aren't you going to argue my actions are illogical?"
"Hey, buddy, they're your gated planar allies."

[mucat]

I wonder if they're going to point out Redcloaks fallacies here too xD
That was my thought too. Nothing like a modron to shine the searing light of logic on Redcloak's tangled self-narrative.

[Duncun]

Can someone explain to me the joke the roach makes in the third panel? I'm guessing it's base-ball related?
It is baseball related. Usually, if you have the lead, you bring in your best relief pitcher in the 9th(last) inning in order close out the game. But sometimes you will bring them in earlier in the game in order to protect the lead if you feel you are going to lose the lead thereby giving you a better chance at winning even if you don't have your closer in at the end.

[hamishspence]

The main guy is way up in the hierarchy. It's one of their leading entities, who aexist in finite numbers. I may be wrong, the big guy may be a Secundus, one of the four seconds-in-command of the whole modron society, effectively rulers of huge sections of Mechanus, subordinate only to Primus himself.

4 arms and winglike things suggests a Quarton, two ranks down from a Secundus. Maybe a Quinton.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Quarton
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Quinton

EDIT: On closer inspection, that guy has at least 5 arms - not sure what has that.

[Sniper Jo]

I actually fully laughed out loud at "what gate?". Very unexpected callback.

[ellindsey]

4 arms and winglike things suggests a Quarton, two ranks down from a Secundus. Maybe a Quinton.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Quarton
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Quinton

It looks like it has five arms to me. Which as far as I can tell doesn't match the description of any modron, unless it's a Quinton and the fifth arm is actually its tail.

[hamishspence]

It looks like it has five arms to me. Which as far as I can tell doesn't match the description of any modron, unless it's a Quinton and the fifth arm is actually its tail.

After re-checking - that seems like the most plausible explanation so far.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I have to admit, I am not familiar enough with what Redcloak might be summoning to even guess what it is supposed to do to help.

Could someone with more knowledge of the source material help a guy out, and give me your best theory as to what it's probably going to do?

I thought it would help Redcloak find the path forward, but that's only based on context, not knowledge of what the lawful creature Red might have summoned can do.

[JustAnotherSoul]

They're entities of pure Law, not pure Logic. So long as he abides by the terms being chanted there's no reason to point out further inconsistencies.

Although that feels like a fun punchline in and of itself.

"Aren't you going to argue my actions are illogical?"
"Hey, buddy, they're your gated planar allies."


Modrons are beings of unwavering logic and order. Each modron holds a rigidly fixed position in modron society and obeys the orders of its superiors without question. They lack a sense of individuality, referring to themselves as "we".

From this wiki referencing the setting book https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Modron#cite_note-pcs-1994-monstroussupplement-17-23-8

My recollection is that they are beings of law, but embody law as logic.

[DaOldeWolf]

No one ever wants to read terms and conditions. Singing them still sounds annoying.

[dancrilis]

4 arms and winglike things suggests a Quarton, two ranks down from a Secundus. Maybe a Quinton.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Quarton
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Quinton

EDIT: On closer inspection, that guy has at least 5 arms - not sure what has that.

I am not sure if Modron's are in the public domain - so like Sunny being a creature that looks like a beholder but is different these might not actually be modrons and as such might not match up with modron physical descriptions.

[hamishspence]

As I recall, Manual of the Planes had a free web enhancement with stats for low-ranking modrons.

[St Fan]

Am I the only one getting Minions vibes from the one-eyed Modrons?

[GooeyChewie]

Can someone explain to me the joke the roach makes in the third panel? I'm guessing it's base-ball related?


Yes, it is baseball related. A “reliever” is a pitcher who is brought in late on the game to replace the starting pitcher. Ideally your starting pitcher gets the opposing batters out quickly and does not need to be relieved until very late in the game, if at all. Relieving your pitcher in inning 7 is considered early and probably means the opposing team is doing well, forcing your pitcher to throw more pitches.

[faustin]

That was my thought too. Nothing like a modron to shine the searing light of logic on Redcloak's tangled self-narrative.

Maybe that's included in the "cost" mentioned, and the other main reason Redcloak doesn't like to summon them.

[Coppercloud]

Thank you, Giant!

I, for one, definitely didn't expect this, and I can't wait to find out what the consequences will be.
Also, in a single comic we have white, pink, red, black and grey speech balloons. Just add an archon and a few gods and we'll be set.
Besides, unless Redcloak reached level 18 since this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html), he just cast both his 9th level spells. I wonder if this spell scroll (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1204.html) (?) will play a role if he ends up in need of more spells.

[mjasghar]

Thanks Rich
Oots Modron March ftw

[ThisIsNotDan]

Gonna throw out here the description of a Septon (7th rank; 49 in existence):


Septons looked humanoid, with a large head. On one side of its head was a face, with two eyes, nose and mouth. The head was hairless and was supported by a collar of sorts that encircled it's shoulder area. Around this collar were seven evenly spaced small arms.

-From https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Septon

This seems to fit the way Rich drew it, specifically with the collar and the multiple arms. There are 5 visible in the panel, but since 7 arms at rest would get a bit crowded, I'm guessing that the remaining two are simply behind its body. n00bs like me can check out https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Modron to learn all about Modrons.

[Magesmiley]

Definitely resembles a Quinton, who are the major bureau chiefs and record keepers of the Modrons. Entering into a contract seems like it would fit into the role of a Quinton.
Their (3E) abilities (from the Manual of the Planes WE) include Legend Lore at will, which is what I suspect Redcloak is after.

It's worth pointing out that one of the 'arms' appears to be coming from behind the creature and is probably a prehensile tail. Which also fits with the Quinton.

[Fyraltari]

Gate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) consumes XP to be cast.

I figure it's just "XPs are part of the soul"

Huh. That has... implications.


Why? I woudlnt expect them to have an encyclopedic knowledge on Redcloak's behaviors and statements.
Sure, but he may commit some new one while they're around.

Mechanus (Nirvana)
Does D&D really call it that?

It is baseball related. Usually, if you have the lead, you bring in your best relief pitcher in the 9th(last) inning in order close out the game. But sometimes you will bring them in earlier in the game in order to protect the lead if you feel you are going to lose the lead thereby giving you a better chance at winning even if you don't have your closer in at the end.

Yes, it is baseball related. A “reliever” is a pitcher who is brought in late on the game to replace the starting pitcher. Ideally your starting pitcher gets the opposing batters out quickly and does not need to be relieved until very late in the game, if at all. Relieving your pitcher in inning 7 is considered early and probably means the opposing team is doing well, forcing your pitcher to throw more pitches.
Thank you!

[Draconi Redfir]

I actually fully laughed out loud at "what gate?". Very unexpected callback.

lowkey thinking the word "Gate" might be some kind of mental conditioning / trigger word to make Mitd's mind retroactively erase recent memories and not form new memories for a time.

maybe relevant to THE gates, maybe not. but it's a thought if nothing else. most likely just overthinking a running gag though.

[dancrilis]

As I recall, Manual of the Planes had a free web enhancement with stats for low-ranking modrons.

Just looked it up and that seems to be the case it was called The Modrons (also had stats for everything up to a Secondus)- the enhancement is available on the wayback machine and it includes this line: 'This Wizards of the Coast game product contains no Open Game Content. No portion of this work may be reproduced in any form without written permission'.

Also based on that supplement this creature if we were using it would seem to match a quinton very well - perhaps The Giant did get permission, or maybe maybe enough time has past since 2001 for it not to matter, or parody being protected etc, or maybe it just isn't isn't a quinton.

[Precure]

I'm glad that Mike Wazowski still continues to get work, even if this kind of work is the exact opposite of his previous line.


Am I the only one getting Minions vibes from the one-eyed Modrons?

They are children borne out of Mike's one night stands at Gru's whorehouse.

[KorvinStarmast]

No one ever wants to read terms and conditions. Singing them still sounds annoying. Rich knows how to land a cultural reference pretty well. :smallsmile:

most likely just overthinking a running gag though. Probably.

I do like the in-world example of how the XP cost of a spell manifests itself.

I like the "what gate" gag resurfacing. :smallsmile:

Xykon's impatience is very much in character.

Modron EULA ESLA: of course they have one! :smallbiggrin:

[Frozenstep]

Cheer up, ESLA-chanter, Redcloak might actually listen.

[mjasghar]

Btw modrons are more about law and order to absurdity not logic. They are not embodiments so much as natives of the plane. They are so weird that the extremes of the castes can’t even see each other - possibly an in joke about TSR office politics at the time

[Toper]

Definitely resembles a Quinton, who are the major bureau chiefs and record keepers of the Modrons. Entering into a contract seems like it would fit into the role of a Quinton.
Their (3E) abilities (from the Manual of the Planes WE) include Legend Lore at will, which is what I suspect Redcloak is after.

It's worth pointing out that one of the 'arms' appears to be coming from behind the creature and is probably a prehensile tail. Which also fits with the Quinton.
Looks like! From https://www.tsrarchive.com/3e/Modrons.pdf:

A quinton is a tall, stocky humanoid with four flexible arms jutting out from its shoulders and a prehensile tail that serves as a fifth arm. Each of its five arms ends in a five-fingered hand. From its back sprouts a pair of fanlike wings, similar to those of a hexton. A diamond inscribed in the quinton’s forehead serves as a symbol of rank.

Quintons speak the modron tongue, plus Abyssal, Auran, Celestial, Infernal, and the trade tongue of the planes. They receive orders from quartons and pass them along to hextons.

The quintons are the bureau chiefs and recordkeepers of Mechanus. Each quinton heads a separate bureau — there is one bureau in each of the regional and quarter towers, plus five in Primus’s tower. Each quinton has one hexton assistant, who in turn can put additional lower-ranked modrons at its supervisor’s disposal.

Obviously some comic liberties are taken with finger count.

[Resileaf]

Just looked it up and that seems to be the case it was called The Modrons (also had stats for everything up to a Secondus)- the enhancement is available on the wayback machine and it includes this line: 'This Wizards of the Coast game product contains no Open Game Content. No portion of this work may be reproduced in any form without written permission'.

Also based on that supplement this creature if we were using it would seem to match a quinton very well - perhaps The Giant did get permission, or maybe maybe enough time has past since 2001 for it not to matter, or parody being protected etc, or maybe it just isn't isn't a quinton.

Considering Sunny, I am fairly sure that the Giant has at least some agreement in place with WotC to use some of their content.

[The MunchKING]

So what is that thing? The Lawful equivalent of a Deva/Fiend?

Modrons are pure Lawful, but yes.

As opposed to Devas being Lawful Good, or Fiends being Chaotic Evil.


And it takes a part of your soul to summon that? That sounds more like a Fiendish thing. Then again, I suppose bureaucracy is soul-crushing.

GATE has an XP cost is the point.


Can someone explain to me the joke the roach makes in the third panel? I'm guessing it's base-ball related?

A baseball game has 9 innings, so putting your best guy in during the 7th means they will have go longer than if you put them in right at the end. Which is OK if they've got the stamina for it.


I wonder if Redcloak will pay attention to the agreement or if this will come back to mess with him.

Unlike Xykon, he seems to care about it.

[Shining Wrath]

Redcloak is summoning an Modron of law to a place within a hundred miles of Xykon? THIS WILL NOT END WELL.

I am unsure how the summoned Modron will speed things up, but that's for Redcloak to know and me to find out.

For the curious, a link to the SRD for Gate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm). Redcloak can get a single being with CR up to twice his caster level, or multiple beings with total CR equal to his caster level. So, one super-powerful being, or a slew of mini searchers.

It also costs him 1000 XP per cast, out of a probable total of about 140,000. If he casts enough, it drops him a level. He can't do this casually.

[The MunchKING]

I thought you COULDN'T go down a level. If it would drop you a level to pay an XP cost you just couldn't cast it. IIRC you were allowed to delay leveling up if thought you were going to cast a big XP spell for exactly that reason.

[SlashDash]

I am not sure if Modron's are in the public domain - so like Sunny being a creature that looks like a beholder but is different these might not actually be modrons and as such might not match up with modron physical descriptions.

I assumed after Zzdrit's "Parody is Free Speech" then everything is back on the table.

[Corian]

I am unsure how the summoned Modron will speed things up, but that's for Redcloak to know and me to find out.

Clairvoyance, Clairaudience, Teleport without errors... They can know a lot about what's behind the doors at low cost.
Plus they'll be systematic about it!

[Doug Lampert]

Redcloak is summoning an Modron of law to a place within a hundred miles of Xykon? THIS WILL NOT END WELL.

I am unsure how the summoned Modron will speed things up, but that's for Redcloak to know and me to find out.

For the curious, a link to the SRD for Gate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm). Redcloak can get a single being with CR up to twice his caster level, or multiple beings with total CR equal to his caster level. So, one super-powerful being, or a slew of mini searchers.

It also costs him 1000 XP per cast, out of a probable total of about 140,000. If he casts enough, it drops him a level. He can't do this casually.

It cannot cost him a level.


XP Cost (XP)
Some powerful spells entail an experience point cost to you. No spell can restore the XP lost in this manner. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level. The XP are treated just like a material component—expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds.

[One Skunk Todd]

So is RC going to ask it the logically optimal way to locate the gate?

[Trixie_One]

I actually fully laughed out loud at "what gate?". Very unexpected callback.

Same, that was fantastic.

[Shining Wrath]

Unsure as to rules about XP loss, I never had to DM that situation.

A little more about baseball pitchers:

Normally you have a starting pitcher, who you want to go as long as possible. A "complete game" is when no relief pitchers are used. These are now somewhat rare. Because pitching at the major league level is so fatiguing, a team will have 4 or 5 starters, and a starting pitcher only starts every few games. If the starter doesn't go at least 5 innings before being replaced (pulled), they cannot receive credit as the winning pitcher, even if their team wins.

Then you have middle relievers. These are the guys you bring in if you have to replace your starter in the middle innings. They can go 2 or 3 innings, usually, and can pitch every few days.

And then there's the closer. This is the best reliever on the team, and sometimes the best pitcher. This is the guy you bring in for one inning if your team has a small lead, and he usually has the ability to shut down the other team with a near-unhittable pitch or two (e.g., a 100 MPH fastball, or a wicked curve).

If you bring in the closer to do anything other than protect a small lead in the last inning, it's a sign that the situation is desperate.

[ellindsey]

I am unsure how the summoned Modron will speed things up, but that's for Redcloak to know and me to find out.

According to some of the rules I've seen, Quintons can cast Legend Lore at will. If so, this could be very useful in tracking down the Gate.

[Joe the Rat]

That title... ouch.
They are both of "singular vision"

[Shining Wrath]

Ooo, I just remembered something about Gate. If you want the summoned creature(s) to do anything that takes significant time (more rounds than you have caster levels, so 2 minutes or so), you have to pay them, in a "coin" that they value.

What will a Modron want in payment? Service? Gold? Metals?

Here's a thought: Redcloak sets very low value on MitD. Will he attempt to trade MitD for Modron support?

[Crusher]

Quintons are CR14 so they're decently formidable in a fight, but one wouldn't be more than a speed bump on its own against the Order at this point. However, their real strength is in information gathering and recording and they have a bunch of abilities and spells along those lines. Plus, each one has a literal army of lesser Modrons (at least hundreds and possibly thousands) under their command and every single one, even the very weakest, has innate True Seeing.

These guys are here to cut through the illusions and other misdirections to figure out exactly where Kraagor's Gate actually is.

Edit - I wonder if this is Serini's worst nightmare in terms of protecting Kraagor's Gate or if she's got something up her sleeve even for this. Because this is varsity-level Divination and shenanigans-unraveling.

[Psyren]

I wonder if Redcloak will pay attention to the agreement or if this will come back to mess with him.

Why wouldn't he? He's Lawful, that's the entire point of this. We can assume he'll stick with the agreement until noted otherwise.


That was my thought too. Nothing like a modron to shine the searing light of logic on Redcloak's tangled self-narrative.

I confess this would be pretty amusing.

A modron would certainly have had a field day with his logic here. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)


I am not sure if Modron's are in the public domain - so like Sunny being a creature that looks like a beholder but is different these might not actually be modrons and as such might not match up with modron physical descriptions.

IIRC the Giant gave an explanation on Product Identity monsters before, it's linked in the MitD thread as rationale for why PI doesn't rule out a monster from appearing in the comic.


According to some of the rules I've seen, Quintons can cast Legend Lore at will. If so, this could be very useful in tracking down the Gate.

I dunno... That spell can take days if not weeks to cast. And the results might not be much better than the info they have now.

[Peelee]

Gonna throw out here the description of a Septon (7th rank; 49 in existence):



-From https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Septon

This seems to fit the way Rich drew it, specifically with the collar and the multiple arms. There are 5 visible in the panel, but since 7 arms at rest would get a bit crowded, I'm guessing that the remaining two are simply behind its body. n00bs like me can check out https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Modron to learn all about Modrons.
Quinton seems to fit perfectly well without making any assptions, though. Plus the delightful phrase "Quinton for the win-ton" that u am shamelessly stealing from the MitD thread.

Huh. That has... implications
Does it? We already know the gods basically feed on soul power, and the reason for existence is for people to grow so they have more soul power. Seems to fit perfectly well with what we already know and doesn't really have any implications that didn't exist before.

Does D&D really call it that?
Yep.

Also, thanks, Better Call Saul, I can never see or hear that word without thinking of that scene now.

[Jaziggy]

Awww, I love the Modrons! They warm the cold cockles of my lawyer's heart.

[Peelee]

Quintons are CR14 so they're decently formidable in a fight, but one wouldn't be more than a speed bump on its own against the Order at this point. However, their real strength is in information gathering and recording and they have a bunch of abilities and spells along those lines. Plus, each one has a literal army of lesser Modrons (at least hundreds and possibly thousands) under their command and every single one, even the very weakest, has innate True Seeing.

These guys are here to cut through the illusions and other misdirections to figure out exactly where Kraagor's Gate actually is.

Edit - I wonder if this is Serini's worst nightmare in terms of protecting Kraagor's Gate or if she's got something up her sleeve even for this. Because this is varsity-level Divination and misdirection-penetrating.

What illusions?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

:mitd: Wait, this whole time we’ve been talking about a spell?

That made me actually laugh out loud and the terms and conditions were pretty funny too. Props to the playgrounders here who answered my question of “What did he summon?” before I could ask it.

[Crusher]

What illusions?

Doesn't the teleport line have some kind of illusion/invisibility component?

Now that I think about it, I suppose it couldn't, could it? Aren't liches immune to illusions?

Edit - Here's a link to the stats and some pics of the high ranking Modrons. The art of the Quinton looks a *lot* like this guy. He's even got the steampunk-y monocle thing and elbow pads.
https://dmdave.com/modrons-2/

[Fyraltari]

Gonna throw out here the description of a Septon (7th rank; 49 in existence)
Hey I know these guys! They prey to the New Gods. I hear they've had issues with sparrows, as of late.

Legend Lore at will, which is what I suspect Redcloak is after.

According to some of the rules I've seen, Quintons can cast Legend Lore at will. If so, this could be very useful in tracking down the Gate.
What does that do?

Does it? We already know the gods basically feed on soul power, and the reason for existence is for people to grow so they have more soul power. Seems to fit perfectly well with what we already know and doesn't really have any implications that didn't exist before.
I feel there's a difference between someone having a more powerful soul than someone else and someone having more soul than someone else, if that makes sense. Also, Roy and Durkon lost a level when they died and where resurrected. does that mean there are bits of their soul still hanging out in the afterlife separated from the rest? wait? Is that where Roy's archon comes from!?


Yep.
What the ****, WotC?

[Ivrytwr]

Read the fine print Redcloak. The fine print!!
Thanks for the okie dokie strip Giant.

[dancrilis]

I feel there's a difference between someone having a more powerful soul than someone else and someone having more soul than someone else, if that makes sense.
You could look at it like having a more concentrated soul power then someone else - Redcloak can give up a bit of that power and grow it back, it isn't flouting off somewhere plotting its revenge.



What the ****, WotC?
I am not sure if it is just me but I am completely missing what your issue is with this, the full name would be 'The Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus' if that helps.

[Crusher]

Ah, I was wrong about Modron vision. In 5e all Modrons have True Seeing but in 3.5e they just have darkvision. My bad.

Edit - Oh, wait. Modrons are immune to mind-influencing spells and effects just like undead which I believe includes things like Illusions but probably not magical darkness. So I might be wrong again.

[Faldrath]

Given how long the singing will take, I suppose we'll go back to the OotS next strip.

How much trouble is the MitD going to be, I wonder...

[Fyraltari]

You could look at it like having a more concentrated soul power then someone else - Redcloak can give up a bit of that power and grow it back, it isn't flouting off somewhere plotting its revenge.
I suppose that makes sense, even if it's not as interesting.



I am not sure if it is just me but I am completely missing what your issue is with this, the full name would be 'The Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus' if that helps.
We're not allowed to discuss religion here, but from my (admittedly limited) understanding of Mechanus, that names fits about as well as a round peg in a square hole.

[RMS Oceanic]

The callback to MitD's confusion about gates was comfy. :smallsmile:

[Edward15]

Uh, oh. There's a chance that Lawful entity might reveal Serini's entire shell game to Redcloak and Xykon.

[Crusher]

You could look at it like having a more concentrated soul power then someone else - Redcloak can give up a bit of that power and grow it back, it isn't flouting off somewhere plotting its revenge.

The world would be a richer place with 1% of Redcloak's soul scheming in a corner somewhere.

[Peelee]

What does that do?
One of my favorite spells, actually.

Legend lore brings to your mind legends about an important person, place, or thing. If the person or thing is at hand, or if you are in the place in question, the casting time is only 1d4×10 minutes. If you have only detailed information on the person, place, or thing, the casting time is 1d10 days, and the resulting lore is less complete and specific (though it often provides enough information to help you find the person, place, or thing, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time). If you know only rumors, the casting time is 2d6 weeks, and the resulting lore is vague and incomplete (though it often directs you to more detailed information, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time).

During the casting, you cannot engage in other than routine activities: eating, sleeping, and so forth. When completed, the divination brings legends (if any) about the person, place, or things to your mind. These may be legends that are still current, legends that have been forgotten, or even information that has never been generally known. If the person, place, or thing is not of legendary importance, you gain no information. As a rule of thumb, characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds.

What the ****, WotC?
And I think we should leave it at that.

[LadyEowyn]

Oh, neat! I like lawful/chaotic summoning as a change from the more iconic angels and fiends. Hilgya’s anarchic giraffes were great, it’ll be cool to see what these guys do. And I always enjoy Redcloak being Lawful.

[Corian]

Erased because saw the mod.

[Fyraltari]

The world would be a richer place with 1% of Redcloak's soul scheming in a corner somewhere.

Unfortunately for everyone, it turns out to be the part of Redcloak that recognizes he was wrong.

[Particle_Man]

I think back in 1st ed it was just Nirvana. When Modrons were introduced back then they were not yet clockworky (more like . . . dice?). Anyhow, later they got clockworky, and *then* the plane got the mechanus name added to it.

I am wondering if part of the use of this gate spell will just be absolutely flooding all the caves simultaneously with a near endless supply of monodrones. But the "Teleport at will" and "Clairaudience" and "Clairvoyance" of the big guy might tip the Modron (and thus Redcloak) to the teleport traps involved (maybe even harking back to Xykon's "which one of these undead are the real Xykon? Oh yeah, none of them" trick from the Sapphire Guard's city war).

I wonder if the two lawyers will make an appearance?

[drazen]

Doesn't the teleport line have some kind of illusion/invisibility component?

Now that I think about it, I suppose it couldn't, could it? Aren't liches immune to illusions?


It is scrying on the destination. It's probably not an 'illusion;' it might be more like Xykon's TeeVo crystal ball. He sees the picture displayed right at the walkover line.

I am not a D&D expert but V said it had a scrying/divination component, not an illusion component. Also if Xykon can see through illusions what was the need for Redcloak to cast True Seeing, exactly? I thought it was "mind affecting" spells that don't work on X.

[Fyraltari]

It is scrying on the destination. It's probably not an 'illusion;' it might be more like Xykon's TeeVo crystal ball. He sees the picture displayed right at the walkover line.

I am not a D&D expert but V said it had a scrying/divination component, not an illusion component. Also if Xykon can see through illusions what was the need for Redcloak to cast True Seeing, exactly? I thought it was "mind affecting" spells that don't work on X.

Well, at the very least we know True seeing can see the Invisble (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html) and Xykon cannot (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html).

[Psyren]

Does D&D really call it that?


Pathfinder too, but not the LN plane (which was renamed to Axis.)



I am wondering if part of the use of this gate spell will just be absolutely flooding all the caves simultaneously with a near endless supply of monodrones. But the "Teleport at will" and "Clairaudience" and "Clairvoyance" of the big guy might tip the Modron (and thus Redcloak) to the teleport traps involved (maybe even harking back to Xykon's "which one of these undead are the real Xykon? Oh yeah, none of them" trick from the Sapphire Guard's city war).

I'm not sure what good they'll do. I'd have thought he'd gate in a swarm of things that can detect evil, as that would be the fastest way to "re-rule out" doors Xykon has been down..

[bunsen_h]

It looks like it has five arms to me. Which as far as I can tell doesn't match the description of any modron, unless it's a Quinton and the fifth arm is actually its tail.

There's an old riddle, often attributed to Abraham Lincoln though actually in circulation decades before he used it. "How many legs does a [donkey/bull/dog/sheep/etc.] have if you call its tail a leg?" Answer: four, since calling its tail a leg doesn't make it so.


Am I the only one getting Minions vibes from the one-eyed Modrons?

I did too.


lowkey thinking the word "Gate" might be some kind of mental conditioning / trigger word to make Mitd's mind retroactively erase recent memories and not form new memories for a time.

You're reminding me of some of the "safeguards" built into Florence, in the webcomic Freefall (http://freefall.purrsia.com/).

[Fyraltari]

There's an old riddle, often attributed to Abraham Lincoln though actually in circulation decades before he used it. "How many legs does a [donkey/bull/dog/sheep/etc.] have if you call its tail a leg?" Answer: four, since calling its tail a leg doesn't make it so.

You don't. You go get him.

[Wintermoot]

Supposition:

The Gated in Quinton has the ability to bring in their entire coterie of lesser modrons, so I expect Redcloak's intention is to have them map out the entire complex using logical cartography skills.

However, I expect the Modrons will reveal the dimensional trap that no one on Team Evil has the ability to perceive instead, or as part and parcel of the mapping.

[Ruck]

Considering Sunny, I am fairly sure that the Giant has at least some agreement in place with WotC to use some of their content.

Why? The strip pointedly goes out of its way not to use the term "beholder."


A baseball game has 9 innings, so putting your best guy in during the 7th means they will have go longer than if you put them in right at the end. Which is OK if they've got the stamina for it.

And they usually don't - most top relievers rarely pitch more than one inning.

The real point here is that the situation is dire enough now to bring in the big guns, rather than waiting until they can be used to secure victory.


Also, thanks, Better Call Saul, I can never see or hear that word without thinking of that scene now.

What word?

Also, there are too many football players named Quinton for me to not think about how funny it would be if Redcloak summoned one of them to help with the search. "Tackling is really more my skill..."

[Peelee]

What word?

I see you haven't seen the penultimate episode yet. :smallamused:

[Resileaf]

Why? The strip pointedly goes out of its way not to use the term "beholder."


It's still visibly one though.

[Jasdoif]

I am not sure if it is just me but I am completely missing what your issue is with this, the full name would be 'The Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus' if that helps....but from my (admittedly limited) understanding of Mechanus, that names fits about as well as a round peg in a square hole.The entire plane is an infinite realm of tremendously overscaled clockwork gears, like some sort of giant mechanism; so I could see where "Mechancus" might have come from....And I suppose it's possible it smells like teen spirit in some places?

[Ruck]

I see you haven't seen the penultimate episode yet. :smallamused:
I have, but I still don't know what word you're referencing.

It's still visibly one though.
And so was the mind flayer, and yet.

[Fyraltari]

It's still visibly one though.

Isn't Sunny missing an eye for a beholder?

[Coppercloud]

Isn't Sunny missing an eye for a beholder?

I think he is missing two. Beholders have ten eyestalks, Sunny has eight.

[Resileaf]

And so was the mind flayer, and yet.

Yeah, for a throwaway gag back when the comic was just random stuff the Giant posted as a parody of D&D campaigns. Sunny's a major character in the story though.

[Duncun]

I love Red Cloak's subtle jab at Xykon in the last panel.

[bunsen_h]

You don't. You go get him.

"I can call puppies from the vasty deep." "Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them?"


Yeah, for a throwaway gag back when the comic was just random stuff the Giant posted as a parody of D&D campaigns. Sunny's a major character in the story though.

There's a "fair use" element in play. Marvel didn't kick up a fuss over Dave Sim's introduction of the "Wolverroach" parody character in Cerebus until the character's third appearance. They were willing to pass off the first two as satire, but after that, they felt that the character was infringing on their trademarks.

[Resileaf]

There's a "fair use" element in play. Marvel didn't kick up a fuss over Dave Sim's introduction of the "Wolverroach" parody character in Cerebus until the character's third appearance. They were willing to pass off the first two as satire, but after that, they felt that the character was infringing on their trademarks.

That's exactly what I mean. The Mind Flayer was there for three strips for a gag of the comic being taken down for copyright infringement, while Sunny is a major character who is intended to play a major part in the final book. That's why I believe the Giant was given an agreement by WotC to add a beholder as a major character, with maybe some restrictions to avoid making it seem like beholders are free use (not directly stating Sunny is one, the number of eyes difference, stuff like that).

[Souhiro]

Whoa.

Didn't know that Redcroach... I mean Redcloak, and The Dark One were Lawful!


For the 1000 XP, do you think that he De-Dinged back to Lvl-8 spells?

[Fyraltari]

Whoa.

Didn't know that Redcroach... I mean Redcloak, and The Dark One were Lawful!

You didn't think that Redcloak was Lawful? Really?

[Jasdoif]

For the 1000 XP, do you think that he De-Dinged back to Lvl-8 spells?You can't spend enough XP on a spell to lose a level (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#xPCostXP), so no.

[dancrilis]

Didn't know that Redcroach... I mean Redcloak, and The Dark One were Lawful!


We don't know if The Dark One is - there is an element in SOD which may point to it but there is nothing in the online comic to suggest he is (and that bit in SOD is perhaps contradicted by online sources).

Gate is a lawful spell in this case and 'A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s' but I don't think there is anything that indicates that Law is opposed to anything other then Chaos - so the Dark One cannot be chaotic I think is all we know from the online comic.

[Psyche]

We don't know if The Dark One is - there is an element in SOD which may point to it but there is nothing in the online comic to suggest he is (and that bit in SOD is perhaps contradicted by online sources).

Gate is a lawful spell in this case and 'A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s' but I don't think there is anything that indicates that Law is opposed to anything other then Chaos - so the Dark One cannot be chaotic I think is all we know from the online comic.
Dark one Is totally lawful Evil. Redcloak says "the other side of the family" and I doubt if he counts himself apart from his god.
Regardless of whether or not this is true, this shuts down the theory that cloak is NE, unless the above is true about dark one being lawful.

[gatemansgc]

I wonder if Redcloak will pay attention to the agreement or if this will come back to mess with him.

i mean he IS lawful so he probably will pay attention.

[bunsen_h]

I wonder if Redcloak and Xykon have an accurate enough description of the Gate for Greater Teleport (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) to get them to it. The Quintons are supposed to be able to duplicate its effects at will -- or at least "Teleport without error", which appears to be the same thing.

[Eric the White]

Cheer up, ESLA-chanter, Redcloak might actually listen.

Makes me think of Lincoln, from a Girl and her Fed. This group would have loved him.

[gatemansgc]

It looks like it has five arms to me. Which as far as I can tell doesn't match the description of any modron, unless it's a Quinton and the fifth arm is actually its tail.

the 5th one is definitely coming from a different spot than the 4 arms so it does seem like a tail.

[Psyche]

A side thing: how would the modron (the big one)'s wings function? Aren't modrons built to be as practical? Also, how powerful is the primus. Isn't he like a god or more of a ruler of a plane, like asmodeus(non-forgotten realms) or the four demigods of arcadia

[gatemansgc]

I am not sure if Modron's are in the public domain - so like Sunny being a creature that looks like a beholder but is different these might not actually be modrons and as such might not match up with modron physical descriptions.

might be why the forehead lacks a diamond symbol, and why the wings are so small compared to the quinton image linked earlier.

[Fyraltari]

A side thing: how would the modron (the big one)'s wings function? Aren't modrons built to be as practical?

Magic. Or maybe they unfold.

[gatemansgc]

I have to admit, I am not familiar enough with what Redcloak might be summoning to even guess what it is supposed to do to help.

Could someone with more knowledge of the source material help a guy out, and give me your best theory as to what it's probably going to do?

I thought it would help Redcloak find the path forward, but that's only based on context, not knowledge of what the lawful creature Red might have summoned can do.

i guess their sheer numbers will let them check more of the doors?

[Xihirli]

Notably, Redcloak picking Lawful creatures to summon instead of Fiendish ones means that if things go south, his Gated allies are more likely to aid him than Xykon.

[Coppercloud]

Strangely enough, the Creature in the Darkness has already witnessed Redcloak casting this spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), without wondering what "Gate" he was talking about.

[gatemansgc]

Strangely enough, the Creature in the Darkness has already witnessed Redcloak casting this spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), without wondering what "Gate" he was talking about.

probably was distracted by mistaking desert for dessert!

[bunsen_h]

A side thing: how would the modron (the big one)'s wings function? Aren't modrons built to be as practical?

:elan: She can FLY??? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html)

:vaarsuvius: I should avoid casting any spells tonight, if only to give the laws of physics time to cry alone in the corner.

Apparently the modrons respect the laws of magic, if not those of physics.

[InvisibleBison]

I wonder if Redcloak and Xykon have an accurate enough description of the Gate for Greater Teleport (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) to get them to it. The Quintons are supposed to be able to duplicate its effects at will -- or at least "Teleport without error", which appears to be the same thing.

Xykon and Redcloak can both cast greater teleport themselves (in Redcloak's case, by using miracle to duplicate it), so I doubt this is what Redcloak has in mind.

[Psyche]

:elan: She can FLY??? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html)

:vaarsuvius: I should avoid casting any spells tonight, if only to give the laws of physics time to cry alone in the corner.

Apparently the modrons respect the laws of magic, if not those of physics.

I suppose so, though I would place my bets on them folding out.

[glassCannon]

Given the fairly strong foreshadowing and flashbacks of the past couple of strips, do you think Redcloak is hedging his bets about Xykon & ensuring his summons will be loyal to him, the most Lawful person on Team Evil? As opposed to equally meticulous and lawful devils, who might also advance Evil at the expense of goblinkind.

Also, with Durkon's instructions from Thor and associated Good gods, and V.'s ...involvement... with the fiends, I wonder if any beings of pure chaos will turn up again?

[Jervis]

You can't spend enough XP on a spell to lose a level (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#xPCostXP), so no.

Plus 1k xp is mostly trivial at that level

[Coppercloud]

Also, with Durkon's instructions from Thor and associated Good gods, and V.'s ...involvement... with the fiends, I wonder if any beings of pure chaos will turn up again?

Well, we did have Chaos giraffes from Limbo (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1117.html) and a slaad (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html) before.

[ManuelSacha]

Yes, yes, yes!
Modrons!
They fit so perfectly with this art style, tbh! They almost feel like originals.

"I think, therefore I am... I think."

[Pixel_Kitsune]

A side thing: how would the modron (the big one)'s wings function? Aren't modrons built to be as practical? Also, how powerful is the primus. Isn't he like a god or more of a ruler of a plane, like asmodeus(non-forgotten realms) or the four demigods of arcadia

A lot of things fly via magic but the wings might be where the magic is. Like Dragons do NOT have the wingspan to hold themselves and it's addressed in 2nd Ed and I believe in the Draconomicon in 3.X. The wings are where the magic around their flight is, so you can damage wings and ground them, but they're not just using aerodynamics and physics.

As for Primus. Primus is on par with a greater deity with some variances. We're talking at least on the level with Thor and Redcloak's god to grab from the source in question.

A Greater deity relies on mortal faith and is tied to it. Their own domain and the material world where their followers are. Primus, or the other head exemplars (examples: Asmodeus, Zaphkiel, Talisid, The Oinoloth, Morwel, etc) Are the pinnacle of what they are. They have the power of deities, People pray to them and get spells, though it's the concept they embody that grants the power. The Primus IS mortal, it dies periodically, a Secundus replaces it and so on down the line.

It was actually a major plot point in 2nd Edition, Orcus was killed, became a deity, killed a Primus and became Primus for a time in order to regain its life. BUT, Orcus is also a Demon Prince on par with Primus, Asmodeus, etc from the get go, so...

[Jervis]

Strangely enough, the Creature in the Darkness has already witnessed Redcloak casting this spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), without wondering what "Gate" he was talking about.

Maybe he just assumed it was something he could just do SU style? Could imply that MitD and his species can do that in addition to the greater teleportesque ability

[LuPuWei]

Okay, this is gonna be cool! :smallamused:

[Fyraltari]

So... What other costs are Redcloak talking about regarding this spell?

[ellindsey]

So... What other costs are Redcloak talking about regarding this spell?

With the Gate spell, if the task that you are asking the gated-in entity will take more than a few rounds to complete, you must offer the called being some form of fair trade in return. What form that fair trade will consist of will depend on the task and the entity you've called. So he's going to have to offer the Mordon something to make this worth its time.

[Reboot]

So... What other costs are Redcloak talking about regarding this spell?
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm:

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards*. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.

Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.

*https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm:

...payment can take a variety of forms, from donating gold or magic items to an allied temple, to a gift given directly to the creature, to some other action on your part that matches the creature’s alignment and goals. Regardless, this payment must be made before the creature agrees to perform any services. The bargaining takes at least 1 round, so any actions by the creature begin in the round after it arrives.

A task taking up to 1 minute per caster level requires a payment of 100 gp per HD of the creature called. For a task taking up to 1 hour per caster level, the creature requires a payment of 500 gp per HD. A long-term task, one requiring up to one day per caster level, requires a payment of 1,000 gp per HD.

A nonhazardous task requires only half the indicated payment, while an especially hazardous task might require a greater gift. Few if any creatures will accept a task that seems suicidal (remember, a called creature actually dies when it is killed, unlike a summoned creature). However, if the task is strongly aligned with the creature’s ethos, it may halve or even waive the payment.

[Shining Wrath]

Strangely enough, the Creature in the Darkness has already witnessed Redcloak casting this spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), without wondering what "Gate" he was talking about.


probably was distracted by mistaking desert for dessert!

Yes, MitD is facing Xykon and focused on the possibility of delicious food, ignoring the cleric casting the 9th level spell.


So... What other costs are Redcloak talking about regarding this spell?

If the summoned creature can't take care of the request quickly, they must be paid. Sometimes in coin, sometimes in other things. I wonder if Redcloak is about to offer MitD in exchange for a horde of Modrons. I linked to the SRD for the Gate spell above.

[Reboot]

Wait, if the EULA (sorry, ESLA) is chanted in full, doesn't that mean the Order have weeks to plan before TE can do anything?


If the summoned creature can't take care of the request quickly, they must be paid. Sometimes in coin, sometimes in other things. I wonder if Redcloak is about to offer MitD in exchange for a horde of Modrons. I linked to the SRD for the Gate spell above.
I doubt it. If we assume it'll take less than an hour, it's 500gp per HD of the modron he called (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25546993&postcount=120) (any secondary ones who come along for the ride are gravy), half that if we consider mapping to be "non-hazardous". (I doubt it'll take longer than an hour). If CR matches the number of Hit Dice, that would be 7000gp for a Quinton (3.5k if "nonhazardous).

I think Redcloak can afford that.

[TuringTest]

I actually fully laughed out loud at "what gate?". Very unexpected callback.



I like the "what gate" gag resurfacing. :smallsmile:

When I've told my husband that I was laughing at a joke made today that was prepared almost 20 years ago, he's called me "neuroatypical" :smalltongue::smallwink:

He was teasing me because I've taught him that word today; but I wonder if it takes some degree on the spectrum to remember a callback to a non-plot-relevant detail from that long ago, or if it's just a sign of love for an amazing work if fiction.

[NobleCuriosity]

Wait, if the EULA (sorry, ESLA) is chanted in full, doesn't that mean the Order have weeks to plan before TE can do anything?

Nah, no way the Order’s getting THAT lucky. This should give them at least an hour or two though.


I doubt it. If we assume it'll take less than an hour, it's 500gp per HD of the modron he called (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25546993&postcount=120) (any secondary ones who come along for the ride are gravy), half that if we consider mapping to be "non-hazardous". (I doubt it'll take longer than an hour). If CR matches the number of Hit Dice, that would be 7000gp for a Quinton (3.5k if "nonhazardous).

I think Redcloak can afford that.

Given the location they’re mapping has monsters Xykon can gain XP from, it will certainly be hazardous. But yes, Redcloak can certainly afford that in gp; the only question is if the Modrob requests payment in any unusual form of currency or not.

[Elan's Modron]

I, Elan's Modron, have come out of Forum-retirement to express my hearty approval of this comic. [Cube modrons like me appeared in the comic - a long time ago. And my name's also a reference to Belkar's straitjacketed angel/good conscience from another strip a million years back]
I loooooove it whenever TOotS gets Planescapey....
Love the rendering of the big modron dude - he looks great in your art-style, Rich!

[Fyraltari]

I wonder if it takes some degree on the spectrum to remember a callback to a non-plot-relevant detail from that long ago

If that's the case I ought to get tested.

[Psyren]

Plus 1k xp is mostly trivial at that level

You do still have to have it available to spend however. He might have been burning a bunch of Greater Restorations in there too on himself and Oona for all we know.



For the 1000 XP, do you think that he De-Dinged back to Lvl-8 spells?


You can't spend enough XP on a spell to lose a level (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#xPCostXP), so no.

This.

The comic calling out the XP cost (and the pain it causes) is likely intended to explain why RC doesn't just Gate as soon as initiative is rolled in every fight, as well as why he hasn't used this tactic for exploring the dungeons until now.


Wait, if the EULA (sorry, ESLA) is chanted in full, doesn't that mean the Order have weeks to plan before TE can do anything?

Talking chanting is a free action :smallbiggrin:


I think Redcloak can afford that.

Looting an entire city certainly pays your casting bills for a bit :smallcool:

[danielxcutter]

Hmm, Modrons? That was unexpected. So this is less for combat and more for divinations I assume.

Also technically Redcloak has cast this spell once, just not for the summoning usage.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Hmm, Modrons? That was unexpected. So this is less for combat and more for divinations I assume.

Also technically Redcloak has cast this spell once, just not for the summoning usage.

Quintons have really great divinations (including Legend Lore which would only demand a few hours to cast), but I suspect what Redcloak is after is the army of modrons following it.

Also, depending on the Giant's reading (and the quinton's feat selection), the quinton's 200-miles telepathy may let it detect that there are not enough creatures behind the doors and that the gate must be somewhere else.

[RblDiver]

I get the feeling this is going to go to a showdown where Durkon can understand the ESLA better than Redcloak, and thus gains some advantage (like, "Agree to Thor's terms or I will invoke subsection 5, paragraph 3, clause ii, which states that failure to provide angel food cake acts as your declaration of war against Mechanus").

[Ruck]

this shuts down the theory that cloak is NE

That was a theory?


Quintons have really great divinations (including Legend Lore which would only demand a few hours to cast), but I suspect what Redcloak is after is the army of modrons following it.

Why do you suspect that? I think between Redcloak's comment on specifically needing some Lawful summons, and that his goal is to find the Gate, it's likely those divinations are what he's hoping to use.

[JonahFalcon]

Well, the Order has three Lawful characters at least.


failure to provide angel food cake

A heinous crime, indeed.


I think between Redcloak's comment on specifically needing some Lawful summons, and that his goal is to find the Gate, it's likely those divinations are what he's hoping to use.

Wonder how he'll feel when it tells him, "Your princess is in another castle."


I assumed after Zzdrit's "Parody is Free Speech" then everything is back on the table.

Zzdrit is a parody of Drizzt. Sunny being called a beholder is not parody. It's a trademark violation. Ditto mind flayers.

[Reboot]

Talking chanting is a free action :smallbiggrin:

Not if you're particularly verbose (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html). I think a EU/SLA qualifies :p


Why do you suspect that? I think between Redcloak's comment on specifically needing some Lawful summons, and that his goal is to find the Gate, it's likely those divinations are what he's hoping to use.
A big army can split up and look for clues.

[Jay R]

... but I wonder if it takes some degree on the spectrum to remember a callback to a non-plot-relevant detail from that long ago, or if it's just a sign of love for an amazing work if fiction.

I'm not convinced it's non-plot-relevant. I suspect that once we know what the MitD is, all of the gate-related comments will make perfect sense, and we'll wonder why we didn't figure it out based on that.


I get the feeling this is going to go to a showdown where Durkon can understand the ESLA better than Redcloak, and thus gains some advantage (like, "Agree to Thor's terms or I will invoke subsection 5, paragraph 3, clause ii, which states that failure to provide angel food cake acts as your declaration of war against Mechanus").

The crucial issue is that angel food cake is served on a doily, which is indeed the gateway ("Gate? What gate?") to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html).

[Ruck]

A big army can split up and look for clues.

If you're just looking for a big army, there's no specific reason to use a Lawful summoning instead of an Evil one.

[Wildstag]

Round, green-skinned, one-eyed, yellow-eyed, overly wordy, and three digits on each hand? There really IS an uncanny resemblance!

Also, I'd kinda forgotten he had the Law domain, given his surprise at the High Priest of the Twelve Gods having that spell prepared and available (which is weird given that the HP resided in a town so Paladin-dominant).

[Edward15]

Strangely enough, the Creature in the Darkness has already witnessed Redcloak casting this spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), without wondering what "Gate" he was talking about.
But Redcloak said he never cast that spell before. Has the Giant made an error?

[CountDVB]

Did not expect this, but nice! And there goes another of Redcloak’s 9th level spell slots.

But this is nuts.

[Psyche]

A lot of things fly via magic but the wings might be where the magic is. Like Dragons do NOT have the wingspan to hold themselves and it's addressed in 2nd Ed and I believe in the Draconomicon in 3.X. The wings are where the magic around their flight is, so you can damage wings and ground them, but they're not just using aerodynamics and physics.

As for Primus. Primus is on par with a greater deity with some variances. We're talking at least on the level with Thor and Redcloak's god to grab from the source in question.

A Greater deity relies on mortal faith and is tied to it. Their own domain and the material world where their followers are. Primus, or the other head exemplars (examples: Asmodeus, Zaphkiel, Talisid, The Oinoloth, Morwel, etc) Are the pinnacle of what they are. They have the power of deities, People pray to them and get spells, though it's the concept they embody that grants the power. The Primus IS mortal, it dies periodically, a Secundus replaces it and so on down the line.

It was actually a major plot point in 2nd Edition, Orcus was killed, became a deity, killed a Primus and became Primus for a time in order to regain its life. BUT, Orcus is also a Demon Prince on par with Primus, Asmodeus, etc from the get go, so...
Isn't demogorgon the most powerful demon lord? Plus what do you mean by on par? What planes do the other people you mentioned rule? Would lords of the feywild, shadowfell, and elemental planes be that powerful(such as tasha, ogremech, or strahd.) On a side note there, wouldn't that make mordenkainen as powerful as a god(on par with tasha, an archfey). And finally, are the other demon lords (for example, my favorite, fra'zz urbluu) as powerful as asmodeus? If you can't answer all of these that's fine, but if you can that would be awesome thank you. I can't find anything(no matter how hard I look) in the 5e main source books on the rulers of the other planes(does limbo even have one?) And yet I can't find anything about the astral, ethereal(though those probably don't count) feywild(besides archfey), shadowfell(aside from strahd, the raven queen(she's the shadowfell ruler now that I think about it) and the bone lords), plane of air(Ruler of aaracockra? Yan-C-Bin?), water(olhydra?), Fire(Immix is that elemental evil guy right?) or earth(ogremech?) besides maybe the respective genie kings; Celestia is the solars. Bytopia no Idea. Elysium no idea. Beastlands no idea. Ysgard no idea. Nine hells has asmodeus. Carceri has merlow(Just guessing from the names mood) The abyss is all of the demon lords??? Pandemonium and carceri I don't even know the fiend type that dwell there, Hades nothing outside of the obvious, and ghenna I don't know besides maybe that yugoloth guy from the monster manual. Now I haven't read every source book so I could be missing somthing. Sorry about all the questions.

[Edward15]

Nevermind. I looked up the rules, and the XP cost isn't required for dimensional travel. So when Redcloak said he never used that 'exact' spell before, he meant he's never used it to summon creatures until now.

[Particle_Man]

Wait, if the EULA (sorry, ESLA) is chanted in full, doesn't that mean the Order have weeks to plan before TE can do anything?.

Maybe this is the Daveed Diggs of Modrons. :smallbiggrin:

Oh and I thought Redcloak was lawful but did not have the Law domain.

[t209]

Hooray, first time seeing Modron in Order of the Stick.

[Psyren]

Not if you're particularly verbose (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html). I think a EU/SLA qualifies :p

Right, but even "particularly verbose" uses up a few rounds per your own link. Not "weeks." :p


But Redcloak said he never cast that spell before. Has the Giant made an error?

He never used this function of it before (Calling outsiders.) The transport function drains no XP.

(Presumably he used a few castings of {Greater} Planar Ally to crush the resistance. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0825.html))

[dancrilis]

So... What other costs are Redcloak talking about regarding this spell?

My suspicion is that this has little to do with DnD and more that The Giant doesn't want to leave an open question as to 'why didn't Redcloak summon another army' later in the comic, the DnD explanation works very well but only for people who can be bothered with worrying about DnD 3.5, the it eats his soul explanation works for everyone else.

[Dame_Mechanus]

If you're just looking for a big army, there's no specific reason to use a Lawful summoning instead of an Evil one.

Yeah, I admit to not being certain of the mechanics behind it, but Redcloak isn't exactly vague that he is very specifically getting Lawful summons here and doesn't think summoning some devils is a good enough substitute. "Muscle" is probably not his goal here.

[Yanagi]

Ha, modrons are great. This made my night.

[Ruck]

Yeah, I admit to not being certain of the mechanics behind it, but Redcloak isn't exactly vague that he is very specifically getting Lawful summons here and doesn't think summoning some devils is a good enough substitute. "Muscle" is probably not his goal here.

I definitely am not deeply familiar with D&D mechanics at all-- the large majority of what I've learned is through the course of trying to better understand this comic-- but with what everyone's said about Legend Lore and similar powers, that makes total sense to me as why Redcloak would specifically be summoning Lawful creatures.

[bunsen_h]

I definitely am not deeply familiar with D&D mechanics at all-- the large majority of what I've learned is through the course of trying to better understand this comic-- but with what everyone's said about Legend Lore and similar powers, that makes total sense to me as why Redcloak would specifically be summoning Lawful creatures.

I was thinking that Legend Lore might not be effective as a means of gathering information that was held as a close secret by the Scribblies. But then I remembered that the dungeons were constructed by crews... or at least Dorukan's was, and we saw Serini supervising the delivery (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) of a cage of monsters. (The literal accuracy of that page is uncertain.) It would depend on whether Kraagor's Gate was hidden before the dungeon work began.

[Crusher]

Yeah, I admit to not being certain of the mechanics behind it, but Redcloak isn't exactly vague that he is very specifically getting Lawful summons here and doesn't think summoning some devils is a good enough substitute. "Muscle" is probably not his goal here.

Partially agree. If he just wanted muscle, he'd probably get devils like vs the Resistance. Here, he wants the info-gathering and collation the Quinton can give him PLUS he gets an army of Modrons that's going to be individually underwhelming but phenomenally well organized and virtually endless. He could probably send a squad of low level Modrons through every single door simultaneously, know exactly which doors are clear and have a detailed map of the initial part of the entire complex in like 5 minutes. I mean, 5 minutes after the chanting is done, however long that takes.

The point being, the Modrons give him flexible, coordinated muscle plus info gathering.

[bunsen_h]

When I've told my husband that I was laughing at a joke made today that was prepared almost 20 years ago, he's called me "neuroatypical" :smalltongue::smallwink:

He was teasing me because I've taught him that word today; but I wonder if it takes some degree on the spectrum to remember a callback to a non-plot-relevant detail from that long ago, or if it's just a sign of love for an amazing work if fiction.

It is a running gag (https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Running_Gags), a line which has been used 5 times previously by the MitD, and twice by others.

[sotanaht]

Thank you, Giant!

I, for one, definitely didn't expect this, and I can't wait to find out what the consequences will be.
Also, in a single comic we have white, pink, red, black and grey speech balloons. Just add an archon and a few gods and we'll be set.
Besides, unless Redcloak reached level 18 since this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html), he just cast both his 9th level spells. I wonder if this spell scroll (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1204.html) (?) will play a role if he ends up in need of more spells.
Leveling up since then seems fairly likely, given that they've been clearing out dungeon after dungeon where even Xycon is getting experience points.

[arimareiji]

Not sure, is it just me who thinks "drains a little bit of my soul" is more of a subtle burn on EULAs ESLAs than it is a reference to XP cost?

[The MunchKING]

Now that I think about it, I suppose it couldn't, could it? Aren't liches immune to illusions?

Technically, Liches and other undead without brains are immune to mind-altering spells; which include most, but not all, Illusions. SOme Illusions are based on actually bending light around to make an objective image appear rather than just messing with everyone's head so they THINK they see something.


Wait, if the EULA (sorry, ESLA) is chanted in full, doesn't that mean the Order have weeks to plan before TE can do anything?


Nah, no way the Order’s getting THAT lucky. This should give them at least an hour or two though.


I was thinking it'd be longer than a human life time (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2900/fc02870.htm), at least.



But Redcloak said he never cast that spell before. Has the Giant made an error?

I think it's the difference between the "Costs XP" version that summons creatures, and the "Free" version that's just "Better Plane Shift".

[Pixel_Kitsune]

0Isn't demogorgon the most powerful demon lord? Plus what do you mean by on par? What planes do the other people you mentioned rule?

Always happy to lore dump.

Demogorgon is arguably one of the most powerful non deity demon princes. It's a balancing act with him, Graz'zt and Orcus usually. Though arguments can be made for Pale Night or some other things to be stronger.

As for where the others I mentioned ruled. Keep in mind I'm speaking 3.X. Many of these beings have not shown in 5e because new things have been added (Like the feywild and shadowfell).

Asmodeus is lord of Baator or The Nine Hells

Zaphkiel is the highest of the Celestial Hemodab which is the Archon rulers of Celestia

Talisid is the leader of the Companions. The Guardinal lords of Elysium. He's basically Aslan from Narnia.

Morwel is the Queen of Stars from when the Eladrin were Chaotic Good Exemplars (Think CG angels vs the ARchons being LG angels or the Devils and Demons being Lawful and Chaotic Evil).

To my knowledge none of these are officially in 5e. But OotS runs on 3.X so...

And when I say on Par I mean, it depends. Orcus managed to kill a Primus, but I'm pretty sure any god that tried to tangle with Asmodeus would die. And what Asmodeus is as LE, the Primus is as LN I'd say Primus are by default a LITTLE bit weaker because they're meant to die and be replaced. But how much a "Little bit" is is who knows when we're talking gods.

Suffice to say Thor or Zeus would be very polite to Primus on Mechanus, probably treat them as an Equal most anywhere else, and MAYBE be superior in their home domain. Back to the comic, the summoned creature is I believe 5 or 6 levels below Primus.


Would lords of the feywild, shadowfell, and elemental planes be that powerful(such as tasha, ogremech, or strahd.)

For me? Yes. For official games, I'm not sure since that stuff was added later. I don't see why they wouldn't be (The elemental lords) Strahd is absolutely weaker, not familiar with Ogremech. Tasha the mortal mage is weaker, Zybilna the Archfey? Not sure.


On a side note there, wouldn't that make mordenkainen as powerful as a god(on par with tasha, an archfey). And finally, are the other demon lords (for example, my favorite, fra'zz urbluu) as powerful as asmodeus? If you can't answer all of these that's fine, but if you can that would be awesome thank you. I can't find anything(no matter how hard I look) in the 5e main source books on the rulers of the other planes(does limbo even have one?) And yet I can't find anything about the astral, ethereal(though those probably don't count) feywild(besides archfey), shadowfell(aside from strahd, the raven queen(she's the shadowfell ruler now that I think about it) and the bone lords), plane of air(Ruler of aaracockra? Yan-C-Bin?), water(olhydra?), Fire(Immix is that elemental evil guy right?) or earth(ogremech?) besides maybe the respective genie kings; Celestia is the solars. Bytopia no Idea. Elysium no idea. Beastlands no idea. Ysgard no idea. Nine hells has asmodeus. Carceri has merlow(Just guessing from the names mood) The abyss is all of the demon lords??? Pandemonium and carceri I don't even know the fiend type that dwell there, Hades nothing outside of the obvious, and ghenna I don't know besides maybe that yugoloth guy from the monster manual. Now I haven't read every source book so I could be missing somthing. Sorry about all the questions.

Running down the list, Mordenkainen is weaker in 3.x, not sure in 5e. None of the Demon Princes would stand up well to Asmodeus, but that's a matter of nature. Some of them might have more raw power, but Asmodeus has the experience, cunning, intelligence and, quite frankly, Batman esq nature that puts him ahead of other evil things. As for the Feywild and Shadowfel and such. The Darklords of Ravenloft are not on par with gods, they're just essentially unkillable. Suffice to say in canon whatever it is that rules Ravenloft was able to capture and hold Vecna up until the point Vecna was a Greater God.

For the domains of the Outer Planes. Celestia is the Archons, Solars are angels made to serve gods specifically in 3.X lore. Bytopia has none, Elysium is Talisid and the Guardinals, Beastlands has none, Aborea is where the Eladrin are, Ysgard has none. Limbo has Slaad. etc, etc.

[BriarHobbit]

Wow. Team Evil just got a major boost. With the combination of Detect Evil, Xykon's trail of evil and the Gate Spell, I expect that Team Evil is going to make some serious progress.

[Edric O]

MINIONS!

I... I mean... MODRONS!

[Ashe]

Implying I should care about the contents of a EULA.

[gatemansgc]

That's exactly what I mean. The Mind Flayer was there for three strips for a gag of the comic being taken down for copyright infringement, while Sunny is a major character who is intended to play a major part in the final book. That's why I believe the Giant was given an agreement by WotC to add a beholder as a major character, with maybe some restrictions to avoid making it seem like beholders are free use (not directly stating Sunny is one, the number of eyes difference, stuff like that).

only the giant himself can answer this!

[Frostwander]

There goes one of Redcloak's 9th-level spells. Not sure how many a day he has, but that could make it harder for Durkon's plan, too.

[danielxcutter]

I definitely am not deeply familiar with D&D mechanics at all-- the large majority of what I've learned is through the course of trying to better understand this comic-- but with what everyone's said about Legend Lore and similar powers, that makes total sense to me as why Redcloak would specifically be summoning Lawful creatures.

Specifically these Lawful creatures; Inevitables are mostly just for smashing things. And they kinda suck at it, actually.


There goes one of Redcloak's 9th-level spells. Not sure how many a day he has, but that could make it harder for Durkon's plan, too.

It’s not like Redcloak couldn’t just pray for more spells the next day or something.

[mjasghar]

I suppose that makes sense, even if it's not as interesting.



We're not allowed to discuss religion here, but from my (admittedly limited) understanding of Mechanus, that names fits about as well as a round peg in a square hole.

Mods please don’t punish me for this 😉
D&d did a supplement with real world regions mostly ones that aren’t widely practised anymore (Norse, Greek etc) and I just edited this in case - let’s leave it there

[Souhiro]

Notably, Redcloak picking Lawful creatures to summon instead of Fiendish ones means that if things go south, his Gated allies are more likely to aid him than Xykon.
I think he picked Lawful creatures, hoping that Durkon took some anti-chaos spells. He knows the good dwarf now, after all.

About being RedC. being chaotic, I think that nothing sounds more chaotic to me that bargaining the complete annihilation of the world in order to get profit.

[Edward15]

Wow. Team Evil just got a major boost. With the combination of Detect Evil, Xykon's trail of evil and the Gate Spell, I expect that Team Evil is going to make some serious progress.
There goes the Order's advantage! By the time they're done strategizing, Team Evil may be in front of the Gate!

[KorvinStarmast]

There goes the Order's advantage! By the time they're done strategizing, Team Evil may be in front of the Gate!
Elan is Chaotic; I suspect he'll have a part to play in neutralizing the lawful, summoned allies of Team Evil.

[137beth]

Not even Redcloak reads the ToS agreement!

[JoeNapalm]

EULA Modron is best Modron.

Thanks, Rich! I needed that.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[alceryes]

I definitely think there's going to be some delicious friction between these lawful modrons and the chaotic Xykon.
Cain't wait! :amused:

[Crusher]

I read the strip again and realized that when reading the EULA-chant, I hear it to the tune of O Fortuna.

I'm listening to it now, specifically the version from the movie Exalibur and the video has clips of the movie. Amusingly, the video opens with a "Spoilers" warning. I mean, it came out in 1981. Surely at some point this stops being an issue.

[CountDVB]

There goes one of Redcloak's 9th-level spells. Not sure how many a day he has, but that could make it harder for Durkon's plan, too.

He should still be 17th Level, so I think he has 1 + 1 9th level spell slots. With him casting implosion already and now gate, he's tapped out there.

[Riftwolf]

My first thought was "Well, I guess this was *puts on glasses* Inevitable..."
But any high ranking Inevitable is unlikely to sign up with Xykon on the team.

[arimareiji]

I read the strip again and realized that when reading the EULA-chant, I hear it to the tune of O Fortuna.

I'm listening to it now, specifically the version from the movie Exalibur and the video has clips of the movie. Amusingly, the video opens with a "Spoilers" warning. I mean, it came out in 1981. Surely at some point this stops being an issue.

You never know. I wasn't there, but heard about this legendary exchange from those who went to see the movie Titanic back when it came out: The Captain Obvious in our group of friends snarked "We all know how it ends - the boat sinks." Our beloved-but-sometimes-a-bit-dotty friend responded in apparently-feigned anger: "[Captain]! Why'd you have to give away the ending?"

Everyone laughed at the joke... until they realized it wasn't a joke, whereupon they laughed harder. (^_^)°

[Niveus Candidus]

Oh, Modrons are fun. Could they represent one of the remaining factions that had yet to be revealed?

[Peelee]

You never know. I wasn't there, but heard about this legendary exchange from those who went to see the movie Titanic back when it came out: The Captain Obvious in our group of friends snarked "We all know how it ends - the boat sinks." Our beloved-but-sometimes-a-bit-dotty friend responded in apparently-feigned anger: "[Captain]! Why'd you have to give away the ending?"

Everyone laughed at the joke... until they realized it wasn't a joke, whereupon they laughed harder. (^_^)°

Some things are more about the journey than the destination. Especially Titanic, since it never reached its destination.

[arimareiji]

Some things are more about the journey than the destination. Especially Titanic, since it never reached its destination.

Technically, I guess you could say it reached its destination... just not the one that was originally intended.

But indeed, that was the point our also-beloved Captain Obvious was missing. And yet for some reason, he was still going - so maybe he didn't miss it after all. (^_~)

[Peelee]

Technically, I guess you could say it reached its destination... just not the one that was originally intended.

But indeed, that was the point our also-beloved Captain Obvious was missing. And yet for some reason, he was still going - so maybe he didn't miss it after all. (^_~)

It wasn't pure sarcasm but an actual complaint? Impressive!

Also, that story reminds me of high school. Freshman year, there was this girl, Crystal. Born on Halloween. The teacher was ragging on her about it a little (super small class sizes, teachers and students had a lot closer relationship than big schools). Talk later shifted to other notable "monster" days, and Crystal exclaims "I hope my birthday never falls on Friday the 13th!"

She was unaware why everyone laughed.

[danielxcutter]

I vaguely remember a Twitter post about someone's friend not knowing that Undertale had a Genocide route for like four years or something.

[Fyraltari]

Oh, Modrons are fun. Could they represent one of the remaining factions that had yet to be revealed?

Since there are more than one and they (presumbaly) don't share the goals of anyone else, I suppose you could call them a faction. Since we had no idea they would come into play, I suppose you could consider them as being revealed here.

I doubt that they'll do anymore than serve as henchpeople for Redcloak, though.

[Crusher]

I doubt that they'll do anymore than serve as henchpeople for Redcloak, though.

Yeah, I think they'll be a tool to for RC to bust open Serini's defenses and have some interesting/illuminating interactions with Team Evil (maybe accidentally making RC rethink his stance on Durkon's offer and a punchy interaction with MitD), but no more.

[arimareiji]

It wasn't pure sarcasm but an actual complaint? Impressive!

Also, that story reminds me of high school. Freshman year, there was this girl, Crystal. Born on Halloween. The teacher was ragging on her about it a little (super small class sizes, teachers and students had a lot closer relationship than big schools). Talk later shifted to other notable "monster" days, and Crystal exclaims "I hope my birthday never falls on Friday the 13th!"

She was unaware why everyone laughed.

I can only make wild guesses about anyone's mental state, but in this case I'd venture it was 10d4% complaint/derogatory wrt "Why is everyone making such a big deal about this movie" (with the rest being for humorous effect). And as noted he was going (which was more than I did), he just wanted to state his objection on principle. Because, you know, Captain Obvious. (^_~)

Maybe it's just something about girls named Crystal (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html)?

[mjasghar]

Since there are more than one and they (presumbaly) don't share the goals of anyone else, I suppose you could call them a faction. Since we had no idea they would come into play, I suppose you could consider them as being revealed here.

I doubt that they'll do anymore than serve as henchpeople for Redcloak, though.

Not really a faction then - that implies an agenda wrt the main plot or to members of the party or to the antagonists.

[Psyche]

Always happy to lore dump.

Demogorgon is arguably one of the most powerful non deity demon princes. It's a balancing act with him, Graz'zt and Orcus usually. Though arguments can be made for Pale Night or some other things to be stronger.

As for where the others I mentioned ruled. Keep in mind I'm speaking 3.X. Many of these beings have not shown in 5e because new things have been added (Like the feywild and shadowfell).

Asmodeus is lord of Baator or The Nine Hells

Zaphkiel is the highest of the Celestial Hemodab which is the Archon rulers of Celestia

Talisid is the leader of the Companions. The Guardinal lords of Elysium. He's basically Aslan from Narnia.

Morwel is the Queen of Stars from when the Eladrin were Chaotic Good Exemplars (Think CG angels vs the ARchons being LG angels or the Devils and Demons being Lawful and Chaotic Evil).

To my knowledge none of these are officially in 5e. But OotS runs on 3.X so...

And when I say on Par I mean, it depends. Orcus managed to kill a Primus, but I'm pretty sure any god that tried to tangle with Asmodeus would die. And what Asmodeus is as LE, the Primus is as LN I'd say Primus are by default a LITTLE bit weaker because they're meant to die and be replaced. But how much a "Little bit" is is who knows when we're talking gods.

Suffice to say Thor or Zeus would be very polite to Primus on Mechanus, probably treat them as an Equal most anywhere else, and MAYBE be superior in their home domain. Back to the comic, the summoned creature is I believe 5 or 6 levels below Primus.



For me? Yes. For official games, I'm not sure since that stuff was added later. I don't see why they wouldn't be (The elemental lords) Strahd is absolutely weaker, not familiar with Ogremech. Tasha the mortal mage is weaker, Zybilna the Archfey? Not sure.



Running down the list, Mordenkainen is weaker in 3.x, not sure in 5e. None of the Demon Princes would stand up well to Asmodeus, but that's a matter of nature. Some of them might have more raw power, but Asmodeus has the experience, cunning, intelligence and, quite frankly, Batman esq nature that puts him ahead of other evil things. As for the Feywild and Shadowfel and such. The Darklords of Ravenloft are not on par with gods, they're just essentially unkillable. Suffice to say in canon whatever it is that rules Ravenloft was able to capture and hold Vecna up until the point Vecna was a Greater God.

For the domains of the Outer Planes. Celestia is the Archons, Solars are angels made to serve gods specifically in 3.X lore. Bytopia has none, Elysium is Talisid and the Guardinals, Beastlands has none, Aborea is where the Eladrin are, Ysgard has none. Limbo has Slaad. etc, etc.
So yeah, um one question: What about carceri? Ogremech is elemental evil's earth guy. And finally, raven queen is shadowfell god, right?
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?648709-Extraplanar-lore&p=25547852#post25547852

[hamishspence]

Carceri's primary fiendish residents are called Demodands (and are statted in 3.0-3.5 in Fiend Folio).

The Shadowfell is a 4e-ism - in 3e, the nearest equivalent is the Plane of Shadow. The Raven Queen was also invented for 4e.

[Laurentio III]

My first thought was "Well, I guess this was *puts on glasses* Inevitable..."
But any high ranking Inevitable is unlikely to sign up with Xykon on the team.
An Inevitable could find that Xykon is violating a law of nature and act against him.
Unlikely, for many reasons, but possible.

"Maruts confront those who would try to deny the grave itself.

Any who use unnatural means to extend their life span could be targeted by a marut. Those who take extraordinary measures to cheat death in some other way might be labeled transgressors as well. Those who use magic to reverse death aren’t worthy of a marut’s attention unless they do so repeatedly or on a massive scale."


Plus, the whole "messing with reality" thing.

[Eric the White]

Nothing to see here. I didnt get completely ninja'd, nope!

[Laurentio III]

Nothing to see here. I didnt get completely ninja'd, nope!
A ninjaed pirate. How fitting.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

So yeah, um one question: What about carceri? Ogremech is elemental evil's earth guy. And finally, raven queen is shadowfell god, right?
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?648709-Extraplanar-lore&p=25547852#post25547852

Hamisphere answered well.

To put a step further, there's not clear leadership for Yugoloths or Demodands. In general there's back and forth lore about the General of Gehenna or the Oinoloth, but it's not as well documents as the Lords of the 9 or the Demon Princes are.

Similar to how I don't believe there's a known leader of the Slaadi.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm going to bet that the new guys is a Pendeon, which is a class E Mordon. Which have a pair of fans on their backs that resemble wings and a monocle to denote rank.

In a case of wanting too much, I think it would've been really cool if the E.S.L.A. fit into some kind of lyrical meter.

[hamishspence]

Similar to how I don't believe there's a known leader of the Slaadi.
There's a few very powerful slaadi who are namedropped, and occasionally statted - Ygorl, Ssendam.

[Reboot]

Right, but even "particularly verbose" uses up a few rounds per your own link. Not "weeks." :p

Even V couldn't outverbose an EULA at their most verbose!


If you're just looking for a big army, there's no specific reason to use a Lawful summoning instead of an Evil one.

I was going to reply, but Crusher beat me to it (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25547320&postcount=149):

Partially agree. If he just wanted muscle, he'd probably get devils like vs the Resistance. Here, he wants the info-gathering and collation the Quinton can give him PLUS he gets an army of Modrons that's going to be individually underwhelming but phenomenally well organized and virtually endless. He could probably send a squad of low level Modrons through every single door simultaneously, know exactly which doors are clear and have a detailed map of the initial part of the entire complex in like 5 minutes. I mean, 5 minutes after the chanting is done, however long that takes.

The point being, the Modrons give him flexible, coordinated muscle plus info gathering.

[brionl]

Sneak preview of Modrons in the next A Monster for Every Season?

If it's a Quinton (or a legally distinct non-copyrighted facsimile thereof) the Dimension Door and Teleport w/o Error at will might come in handy.

[Giggling Ghast]

I think it's actually a quarton.

Quartons have four arms and two large fan-like wings on their back. Plus, they wear something akin to a helmet.

[multilis]

"I was hoping for a bigger reaction to drawing" - 1263, and then a "close call" on "track me with a low level spell"... Redcloak is worrying that Xykon is deeply suspicious of him and ready to turn.

Then Redcloak gets some help from "order" rather than "evil".

To me seems like Redcloak is doing the "bigger reaction to drawing". Based on talk of 2 villages, he is thinking about shifting allegiances if required to be easier allied with a lawful dwarf if that is better for goblins than "right all along" village.

We could end up with Redcloak allied with OOTS (not destroy the gates), while Xykon allies with IFCC (destroy the gates), whatever IFCC has got planned could be based on getting Xykon to help with THEIR plan once he discovers Redcloaks betrayal.

[Mad Humanist]

It is baseball related. Usually, if you have the lead, you bring in your best relief pitcher in the 9th(last) inning in order close out the game. But sometimes you will bring them in earlier in the game in order to protect the lead if you feel you are going to lose the lead thereby giving you a better chance at winning even if you don't have your closer in at the end.

My thanks for the explanation. I don't think I would have got the reference without someone explaining it.

As it happens I track (https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/242487/games-order-stick?itemid=9127508#item9127508) references to games in the comic and it has been a while since we had one.

[mjasghar]

Hamisphere answered well.

To put a step further, there's not clear leadership for Yugoloths or Demodands. In general there's back and forth lore about the General of Gehenna or the Oinoloth, but it's not as well documents as the Lords of the 9 or the Demon Princes are.

Similar to how I don't believe there's a known leader of the Slaadi.

The Slaadi background is 4-5 top Slaadi who are god level and created the Spawning stone as a way to make sure no one gets as powerful as them. The Stone is actually a dimensional prison inside iirc full of extreme mutations

[InvisibleBison]

Amusingly, the video opens with a "Spoilers" warning. I mean, it came out in 1981. Surely at some point this stops being an issue.

I don't see why spoilers would stop being an issue over time. New people are born every day, and none of them have seen any media.


He should still be 17th Level, so I think he has 1 + 1 9th level spell slots. With him casting implosion already and now gate, he's tapped out there.

Why do you think Redcloak should still be 17th level? Team Evil has been fighting monsters powerful enough to give Xykon XP, so Redcloak is definitely also earning some. It seems perfectly plausible to me that he'd have leveled up during his sojourn at Monster Hollow.

[brian 333]

"I was hoping for a bigger reaction to drawing" - 1263, and then a "close call" on "track me with a low level spell"... Redcloak is worrying that Xykon is deeply suspicious of him and ready to turn.

Then Redcloak gets some help from "order" rather than "evil".

To me seems like Redcloak is doing the "bigger reaction to drawing". Based on talk of 2 villages, he is thinking about shifting allegiances if required to be easier allied with a lawful dwarf if that is better for goblins than "right all along" village.

We could end up with Redcloak allied with OOTS (not destroy the gates), while Xykon allies with IFCC (destroy the gates), whatever IFCC has got planned could be based on getting Xykon to help with THEIR plan once he discovers Redcloaks betrayal.

Xykon has known Redcloak intends to betray him all along. He has never trusted Redcloak, and has plans in place to deal with the inevitable betrayal. Why should Xykon get excited about 1263 when there have been other obvious clues he failed to get excited about?

What new information is in 1263 that Xykon would not have had reason to suspect before?

[TheNecrocomicon]

He is the Modron Man (secret secret, he's got a secret)
Who hides behind a Plan (secret secret, he's got a secret)
So no one else can see (secret secret, he's got a secret)
His true duplicity

Domo arigato, Mr. Redcloako, domo (domo), domo (domo)
Domo arigato, Mr. Redcloako, domo (domo), domo (domo)

Thank you very much, oh Mr. Redcloako
For casting all the spells nobody wants to
And thank you very much, oh Mr. Redcloako
For helping the plot along to where it needed to
Thank you, thank you, thank you
I want to thank you, please, thank you, ohhhhh yeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!

The problem's plain to see
Call more technology
Gate spells to save our lives
Machines to liches' eyes

The time has come at last (secret secret, he's got a secret)
To throw away this mask (secret secret, he's got a secret)
Now everyone can see (secret secret, he's got a secret)
His true identity
He's--
"Kill Roy, kill Roy,
kill Roy, kill Roy" ...

[Peelee]

He is the Modron Man (secret secret, he's got a secret)


Oh, hello there, one-of-the-greatest-bands-that-ever-existed.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Oh, hello there, one-of-the-greatest-bands-that-ever-existed.

And I have to say, them getting Lawrence Gowan as their frontman was a genius move of the highest order.

[Peelee]

And I have to say, them getting Lawrence Gowan as their frontman was a genius move of the highest order.

I don't think I've heard anything of theirs from the new millennium. That needs to change.

[Ruck]

He is the Modron Man (secret secret, he's got a secret)
Who hides behind a Plan (secret secret, he's got a secret)
So no one else can see (secret secret, he's got a secret)
His true duplicity

Domo arigato, Mr. Redcloako, domo (domo), domo (domo)
Domo arigato, Mr. Redcloako, domo (domo), domo (domo)

Thank you very much, oh Mr. Redcloako
For casting all the spells nobody wants to
And thank you very much, oh Mr. Redcloako
For helping the plot along to where it needed to
Thank you, thank you, thank you
I want to thank you, please, thank you, ohhhhh yeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!

The problem's plain to see
Call more technology
Gate spells to save our lives
Machines to liches' eyes

The time has come at last (secret secret, he's got a secret)
To throw away this mask (secret secret, he's got a secret)
Now everyone can see (secret secret, he's got a secret)
His true identity
He's--
"Kill Roy, kill Roy,
kill Roy, kill Roy" ...

Modron love (flies beside me)
Modron love (flies on by)
Modron love (gets me to the Gate on time...)

[bunsen_h]

Also, that story reminds me of high school. Freshman year, there was this girl, Crystal. Born on Halloween. The teacher was ragging on her about it a little (super small class sizes, teachers and students had a lot closer relationship than big schools). Talk later shifted to other notable "monster" days, and Crystal exclaims "I hope my birthday never falls on Friday the 13th!"

She was unaware why everyone laughed.

No chance she was accustomed to working in multiple number bases? Cue the old joke about Because OCT 31 = DEC 25 (as 'OCT' is sometimes used to indicate octal, i.e. base-8 math, and 'DEC' decimal, base-10 math; 318 = 2510).
A few years ago I was at a gathering in which a guy was celebrating his 63rd birthday, but the cake decorator messed up the order and wrote a 36 instead. I pointed out that it worked in base 19.


In a case of wanting too much, I think it would've been really cool if the E.S.L.A. fit into some kind of lyrical meter.

I thought at first that it could be hammered into "A Policeman's Lot Is Not a Happy One", but it doesn't really.

[Krakius]

Show: Has a character sign a contract without reading it. This inevitably backfires.

Me, as a kid: Pfft. I would never be stupid enough to do that.

Me, now: Scroll, scroll, scroll . . .

[Earwig]

Longish-time reader of both comic and these discussion threads, finally registered to say - if the "draining a bit of his soul" RC states as a cost (just) refers to the XP cost of casting Gate, why wouldn't he state outright that this is what's happening? We've had plenty of mentions of XP in-comic before... :smallconfused:


Edited for typo

[Coppercloud]

Longish-time reader of both comic and these discussion threads, finally registered to say - if the "draining a bit of his soul" RC states as as a cost (just) refers to the XP cost of casting Gate, why wouldn't he state outright that that's what is happening? We've had plenty of mentions of XP in-comic before... :smallconfused:
There are usually several ways to state a given fact. He could probably just have talked about an XP cost, but chose not to (this applies to both the Giant and Redcloak). It doesn't strike me at particularly odd, and even then, people use odd turns of phrase basically all the time. And maybe it is a sensitive topic for Redcloak, who believes his people were created as mere XP sources for the PC races.

[Reboot]

We could end up with Redcloak allied with OOTS (not destroy the gates), while Xykon allies with IFCC (destroy the gates), whatever IFCC has got planned could be based on getting Xykon to help with THEIR plan once he discovers Redcloaks betrayal.
Why would Xykon want to destroy the world? Some of his best evilness took place there! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) Even ROY doesn't think Xykon wants to destroy the world (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1005.html). His biggest motivation is to avoid the Great Fire below (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html). Y'know, where the IFCC is from.


Longish-time reader of both comic and these discussion threads, finally registered to say - if the "draining a bit of his soul" RC states as a cost (just) refers to the XP cost of casting Gate, why wouldn't he state outright that this is what's happening? We've had plenty of mentions of XP in-comic before... :smallconfused:

Direct references like that have waned over time. When V got level-drained by the vampires, they described it as "reduced life energy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1102.html)" rather than "two negative levels", for instance. (And, yes, Roy refers to level drain in the same strip, but "waned", not "gone")

[pearl jam]

Enough people seem to be bothered by this wording that I wonder if it won't come up in the next batch of Patreon questions or be addressed in the book commentary.

[Coppercloud]

Enough people seem to be bothered by this wording that I wonder if it won't come up in the next batch of Patreon questions or be addressed in the book commentary.
Either that, or Xykon will tell him "Suck it up, this was just a bit of experience. Less drama, more killing good guys."

[dancrilis]

Longish-time reader of both comic and these discussion threads, finally registered to say - if the "draining a bit of his soul" RC states as a cost (just) refers to the XP cost of casting Gate, why wouldn't he state outright that this is what's happening? We've had plenty of mentions of XP in-comic before... :smallconfused:


Because saying it would cost him a wee bit o' xp (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html) would perhaps minimise his sacrifice where saying it cost a bit of his soul highlights how much he is suffering for the cause.

[masamune1]

I remember a thread asking if Redcloak was a cleric of War but does this mean he's a cleric of Law, and not just a Lawful Cleric?

Also, seems like Redcloak could probably ask these guys if anything Durkon said about the gods destroying and remaking the world is true or not- not sure if they would actually KNOW, but it's worth a shot.

[Larsaan]

I remember a thread asking if Redcloak was a cleric of War but does this mean he's a cleric of Law, and not just a Lawful Cleric?

Also, seems like Redcloak could probably ask these guys if anything Durkon said about the gods destroying and remaking the world is true or not- not sure if they would actually KNOW, but it's worth a shot.

Third edition clerics picked two domains, usually from a list specific to their deity, and the deity's alignment(s) was almost always among those options. Redcloak could have picked Law and Destruction as his domains, the latter being what gives him access to Disintegrate.

That said, Gate is a regular 9th level spells for clerics anyway, no domain needed.

[danielxcutter]

Also pretty sure he's a Lawful Evil cleric who worships a Lawful Evil god, so it works either way.

[dancrilis]

Also pretty sure he's a Lawful Evil cleric who worships a Lawful Evil god, so it works either way.

I would be much less sure of the Dark One's alignment - and we know that Neutral deities can grant the Law domain.

[hamishspence]

Third edition clerics picked two domains, usually from a list specific to their deity, and the deity's alignment(s) was almost always among those options. Redcloak could have picked Law and Destruction as his domains, the latter being what gives him access to Disintegrate.

That said, Gate is a regular 9th level spells for clerics anyway, no domain needed.Redcloak uses Unholy Blight. which is an "Evil Domain only" spell:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html


There's a way of swapping out a domain temporarily though - the Substitute Domain spell from Complete Champion. It's also possible that the Cloak might do something similar.

The main hint that he has access to the Law domain, previously, was in the Start of Darkness book - him casting Hold Monster in that, which clerics need the Law domain to access.

[danielxcutter]

There's also items like domain staffs, I think those let you burn normal slots to cast domain spells limited times per day. Considering that the Cloak actually... doesn't seem to have that impressive abilities for an artifact of that much importance, it probably does something beyond being "plot device" even if that hasn't or even won't ever come up in the actual comic.

[masamune1]

So...he's a Lawful Evil cleric whose domains are actually "Law" and "Evil", then?

[dancrilis]

So...he's a Lawful Evil cleric whose domains are actually "Law" and "Evil", then?

I am personally dubious if he has the Law domain - he did cast Hold Monster in SOD which which is an indication that he does have it but he was surprised that another cleric was able to cast it which implies to me that his own usage was not from a domain.

I think it is more likely he is a Lawful Evil cleric with the domains Destuction (for Disintegrate) and Evil (for Unholy Blight).

[hamishspence]

So...he's a Lawful Evil cleric whose domains are actually "Law" and "Evil", then?

And Destruction. We don't know which two domains he picked at 1st level, though, or when and how got access to the third.

I figure he picked Law and Destruction first, and later found a way of using the Evil domain as well. Since his use of the Evil domain spell took place a lot later than his usages of the Law and Destruction domains.

[danielxcutter]

Hadn't Rich already started using non-core spells by that point? Could be taking inspiration from that if not outright using them.

[Jasdoif]

Redcloak uses Unholy Blight. which is an "Evil Domain only" spell:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html


There's a way of swapping out a domain temporarily though - the Substitute Domain spell from Complete Champion. It's also possible that the Cloak might do something similar.

The main hint that he has access to the Law domain, previously, was in the Start of Darkness book - him casting Hold Monster in that, which clerics need the Law domain to access.Elan's comment about thinking prestige classes were for clerics (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html) could come in; a few of them grant an additional domain. It's more likely than Redcloak hitting epic and choosing Bonus Domain as an epic feat, anyway.

(As an aside, I still don't know what to think about the Arcane Disciple feat; why is it so much easier for an arcane spellcaster to add domain spells to their class list?)

[danielxcutter]

Elan's comment about thinking prestige classes were for clerics (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html) could come in; a few of them grant an additional domain. It's more likely than Redcloak hitting epic and choosing Bonus Domain as an epic feat, anyway.

(As an aside, I still don't know what to think about the Arcane Disciple feat; why is it so much easier for an arcane spellcaster to add domain spells to their class list?)

The entire point of Arcane Disciple is letting arcane spellcasters access domain spells at all I guess. Also if you ask me the feat suuuuuuucks.

[Jasdoif]

The entire point of Arcane Disciple is letting arcane spellcasters access domain spells at all I guess. Also if you ask me the feat suuuuuuucks.It involves more deliberation than a lot of feat choices, but it has potential; getting up to nine spells added onto your spell list can be pretty handy (compare with Extra Spell's one that's already on your class spell list). A focused spell list like a beguiler's or warmage's can get a lot of flexibility outside of the usual niche, and if the Spell domain is available you can conceivably get tons of arcane effects through (greater) anyspell. If nothing else, you can use spell completion/trigger items for them, which aren't subject to the limitations imposed on casting the spells yourself; and doesn't even require you to be able to cast spells of their level.

[Ariko]

But Redcloak said he never cast that spell before. Has the Giant made an error?

Possibly he refers to the calling function of Gate as a functionally separate spell from the planar travel function? Given that only the former has an xp cost, it could be that.

[Alex Warlorn]

Oh this is great! nobody reads the user license agreement. Poor Redcloak.

So what is that thing? The Lawful equivalent of a Deva/Fiend? And it takes a part of your soul to summon that? That sounds more like a Fiendish thing. Then again, I suppose bureaucracy is soul-crushing.


That is a Modron, a Quinton if I'm not mistaken from the five arms. There are only 25 of them in existence at a time. The forth highest ranking of the Modrons. The bureau chiefs and archivists of the plane of order and logic.

The little guys are called Monodrone, the lowest of the low of the Modron, (there are 300+ million of them in existence) only able to do one job at a time and no more. They think they and the Duodrones are the only Modrons in existence and can only grasp the higher ranks as exceptionally powerful Duodrones.

Modrons, even Primus himself, the One and the Prime, speak with "us" and "we" because when one speaks, they speak for their entire kind.

When a Modron dies, it respawns at Primus' energy pool as a Monodrone. And a Modron of the lower rank will be promoted to fill the void left in the higher rank, and all the way down to the lowest rank getting a promotion.





Can someone explain to me the joke the roach makes in the third panel? I'm guessing it's base-ball related?



Well there are nine Innings in a baseball game, so I guess somethings you're forced to bring in your best back-up player before the finale.

[Alex Warlorn]

The main guy is way up in the hierarchy. It's one of their leading entities, who aexist in finite numbers. I may be wrong, the big guy may be a Secundus, one of the four seconds-in-command of the whole modron society, effectively rulers of huge sections of Mechanus, subordinate only to Primus himself.

Pretty sure he's a Quinton, check out the five arms.

[Edhelras]

I thought you COULDN'T go down a level. If it would drop you a level to pay an XP cost you just couldn't cast it. IIRC you were allowed to delay leveling up if thought you were going to cast a big XP spell for exactly that reason.

You CAN go down a level: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html ¨

But it can cause great intra-party tension...

[LookieLouE1707]

Unsure as to rules about XP loss, I never had to DM that situation.

A little more about baseball pitchers:

Normally you have a starting pitcher, who you want to go as long as possible. A "complete game" is when no relief pitchers are used. These are now somewhat rare. Because pitching at the major league level is so fatiguing, a team will have 4 or 5 starters, and a starting pitcher only starts every few games. If the starter doesn't go at least 5 innings before being replaced (pulled), they cannot receive credit as the winning pitcher, even if their team wins.

Then you have middle relievers. These are the guys you bring in if you have to replace your starter in the middle innings. They can go 2 or 3 innings, usually, and can pitch every few days.

And then there's the closer. This is the best reliever on the team, and sometimes the best pitcher. This is the guy you bring in for one inning if your team has a small lead, and he usually has the ability to shut down the other team with a near-unhittable pitch or two (e.g., a 100 MPH fastball, or a wicked curve).

If you bring in the closer to do anything other than protect a small lead in the last inning, it's a sign that the situation is desperate.

the opposite, actually. you don't bring your closer in when the situation is desperate; you bring him in when you are on the cusp of victory. you use your closer in high-leverage situations, which come when you are winning, not when you are losing.

suppose you trail by 1 run (or many) in the ninth inning: you don't bother wasting your closer, you save him for tomorrow, because even if you guarantee your opposition a scoreless inning that has little effect on your odds of winning. on the other hand, if you lead by 1 run in the ninth, then shutting your opponent out for an inning guarantees victory. that's when you use your closer.

generally closers are held until the ninth inning because if used earlier they may be wasted in a game where their contribution turned out to be irrelevant. suppose you use your closer in the seventh inning with a 1-run lead, and then your offense scores ten runs in the eighth. your closer's scoreless inning in the seventh turned out not to matter. if you use him in the ninth with a 1-run lead, though, then his contribution is certain to matter.

so when do you use your closer in the seventh inning? suppose you lead by four in the seventh inning and the opponent loads the bases. you are not in dire straights: you are still overwhelmingly favored to win the game! but your closer will probably be irrelevant in the ninth inning - probably you will still hold a comfortable lead then. but if you use your closer now, and guarantee you take a 4-run lead (at least) to the eighth inning, then your victory is all but guaranteed. it is unlikely your opponent will have a chance like this again.

[Ruck]

Aside, while I'm not a Yankees fan, it is funny to me how much of their late-90s and early-00s playoff success was due to Joe Torre recognizing that sometimes he should bring Mariano Rivera in high-leverage situations even if it wasn't the ninth inning yet, which at the time was completely bucking a very stubborn conventional wisdom.

(Also, good and thorough explanation, LookieLou.)

[Peelee]

Aside, while I'm not a Yankees fan

My dad went to his grave still saddled with the absolute betrayal of the Dodgers moving to LA.

[brian 333]

I suppose it should be mentioned by our non-baseball-savvy friends; at the pro level there are elaborate rules about how often a pitcher may play, and changing out pitchers is a strategy involving multiple games. Bringing a relief pitcher in too early may make him ineligible in the next game.

[ff7hero]

I suppose it should be mentioned by our non-baseball-savvy friends; at the pro level there are elaborate rules about how often a pitcher may play, and changing out pitchers is a strategy involving multiple games. Bringing a relief pitcher in too early may make him ineligible in the next game.

Oh my goodness, thank you! This is the piece of the puzzle I was still scratching my head over.

[hroþila]

I suppose it should be mentioned by our non-baseball-savvy friends; at the pro level there are elaborate rules about how often a pitcher may play, and changing out pitchers is a strategy involving multiple games. Bringing a relief pitcher in too early may make him ineligible in the next game.
https://i.gifer.com/6WH.gif

[danielxcutter]

I went to a baseball stadium with my cousins some years back. Wasn't really fun. Though I was never a sports fan in general.

[pearl jam]

I suppose it should be mentioned by our non-baseball-savvy friends; at the pro level there are elaborate rules about how often a pitcher may play, and changing out pitchers is a strategy involving multiple games. Bringing a relief pitcher in too early may make him ineligible in the next game.

Rules is stating it a bit too strongly, I think. Although there are actual rules regarding player substitution in a given game, the "rules" that govern how often pitchers pitch are conventions that represent accepted standard practice but have changed over time as the accepted wisdom on the subject has changed. It's certainly true that, to a very large degree, they are adhered to as if they were rules, but breaking from those practices is not actually against the rules of the game.

[SlashDash]

I am personally dubious if he has the Law domain - he did cast Hold Monster in SOD which which is an indication that he does have it but he was surprised that another cleric was able to cast it which implies to me that his own usage was not from a domain.

I think it is more likely he is a Lawful Evil cleric with the domains Destuction (for Disintegrate) and Evil (for Unholy Blight).

I don't think he has Law domain.
Note this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)
Redcloak wonders how he got the "Hold Monster" spell, and the other guy says "Law Domain"

You'd think Redcloak would know that if it's his domain.

[hamishspence]

I think the way the Modron addresses him as "cleric of Law" might support the notion that it means more than just "cleric who happens to be Lawful-alignment".

[ff7hero]

I don't think he has Law domain.
Note this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)
Redcloak wonders how he got the "Hold Monster" spell, and the other guy says "Law Domain"

You'd think Redcloak would know that if it's his domain.

The Class and Level Geekery Thread pointed out that Redcloak casts Hold Monster during SoD. Which is weird to ne but there it is.

[The MunchKING]

The Class and Level Geekery Thread pointed out that Redcloak casts Hold Monster during SoD. Which is weird to ne but there it is.

It may be that he didn't know the 12 Gods gave out moral domains, especially if he's got enough Knowledge: Religion to know the Giant's stance that they are basically all True Neutral anyway.

[Ruck]

I suppose it should be mentioned by our non-baseball-savvy friends; at the pro level there are elaborate rules about how often a pitcher may play, and changing out pitchers is a strategy involving multiple games. Bringing a relief pitcher in too early may make him ineligible in the next game.

I don't think there's any rule against a pitcher playing consecutive games. The bigger issue is just that pitching is very tiring; it's not very often a relief pitcher is ready to go in consecutive games, especially if he pitches more than one inning. And most teams have a rotation of five starters to give them enough time to rest and recover.

What is true is that a player who leaves a game can't come back in. So if you bring your closer in early and he pitches as long as he can, but you fail to close out the game, you could be in trouble in the final innings.


My dad went to his grave still saddled with the absolute betrayal of the Dodgers moving to LA.

My grandma was from Brooklyn and my dad has similar stories (this is also why he's still a Dodgers fan).

[JonahFalcon]

Why did I think Monodrones were the square guys and Duodrones were the flying round guys?

I'm losing my memory.


The Class and Level Geekery Thread pointed out that Redcloak casts Hold Monster during SoD. Which is weird to ne but there it is.

Also, Redcloak comments, "Nice". He's saying this to a human of Azure City (someone he would despise), which indicates his opinion of the priest went a little up.

[Eric the White]

It may be that he didn't know the 12 Gods gave out moral domains, especially if he's got enough Knowledge: Religion to know the Giant's stance that they are basically all True Neutral anyway.

I'd say its just that the Giant missed one. Not a big deal, its got to be a nightmare to have every little thing all lined up just in case in 700 strips you want to have someone know/not know something.

[arimareiji]

I don't think there's any rule against a pitcher playing consecutive games. The bigger issue is just that pitching is very tiring; it's not very often a relief pitcher is ready to go in consecutive games, especially if he pitches more than one inning. And most teams have a rotation of five starters to give them enough time to rest and recover.

What is true is that a player who leaves a game can't come back in. So if you bring your closer in early and he pitches as long as he can, but you fail to close out the game, you could be in trouble in the final innings.
It's kindofa good misconception, actually. It's not a rule per se, but nowadays (as it becomes a higher priority to avoid injury instead of just using up and discarding players) good managers should make rest mandatory to the point that it seems like a "rule".

If you put in a pitcher who's tired and/or their body hasn't had time to repair the micro-injuries that occur at the cellular level when you repeatedly hurl an object 100mph, the odds quickly climb that they'll aggravate micro-injuries into larger (but still tiny) ones that take longer to heal. And if you keep going they can escalate to minor tears that become a long-term problem, or even into major tears that can end a season or even a career. (Not to mention scar tissue is almost always weaker and less functional than the tissue it replaced.)

~~~

Going back to the roach metaphor that started this: As a baseball fan, it drives me half-mad* to see managers get their heads stuck so far up their "defined roles"... that they send in a subpar reliever to face the other team's best hitters in the 7th with the bases loaded (because "you have to save your closer for the 9th/last inning"). Then they console themselves with the fact that the closer wasn't really needed anyway, because that 4-3 lead became 4-9 against them. :smallfurious:

So, smart move on Redcloak's part to put in his closer when he can do the most good (instead of saving him for the 9th because reasons).

* - I suspect the Giant might harbor similar feelings of lesser intensity, given the metaphor.

I don't think he has Law domain.
Note this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)
Redcloak wonders how he got the "Hold Monster" spell, and the other guy says "Law Domain"

You'd think Redcloak would know that if it's his domain.

Criminally-underrated delayed-punchline joke: 30 strips later, "Wait a minute, I had a 22!"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html (fifth panel)

[JonahFalcon]

* - I suspect the Giant might harbor similar feelings of lesser intensity, given the metaphor.


Criminally-underrated delayed-punchline joke: 30 strips later, "Wait a minute, I had a 22!"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html (fifth panel)

It's not underrated. It's a classic.

[arimareiji]

Who has said that joke is underrated?

Says I, because I love it and therefore if it doesn't get frequent mention... then in my inerrant supreme judginess of comedy, I decree it's been underrated. (^_~)

[a_flemish_guy]

A lot of things fly via magic but the wings might be where the magic is. Like Dragons do NOT have the wingspan to hold themselves and it's addressed in 2nd Ed and I believe in the Draconomicon in 3.X. The wings are where the magic around their flight is, so you can damage wings and ground them, but they're not just using aerodynamics and physics.

As for Primus. Primus is on par with a greater deity with some variances. We're talking at least on the level with Thor and Redcloak's god to grab from the source in question.

A Greater deity relies on mortal faith and is tied to it. Their own domain and the material world where their followers are. Primus, or the other head exemplars (examples: Asmodeus, Zaphkiel, Talisid, The Oinoloth, Morwel, etc) Are the pinnacle of what they are. They have the power of deities, People pray to them and get spells, though it's the concept they embody that grants the power. The Primus IS mortal, it dies periodically, a Secundus replaces it and so on down the line.

It was actually a major plot point in 2nd Edition, Orcus was killed, became a deity, killed a Primus and became Primus for a time in order to regain its life. BUT, Orcus is also a Demon Prince on par with Primus, Asmodeus, etc from the get go, so...

I think the purpose of becoming primus wasn't so much more power but so he could call the great march early in order to search for his rod, this proved to be really troublesome to the modrons once the orcus primus was replaced by a regular one

[andowero]

I wonder what pantheon the Primus belongs to or whether he even is a god.

[Ezekiel]

I wonder what pantheon the Primus belongs to or whether he even is a god.

I always assumed Primus was just a very powerful outsider.

[a_flemish_guy]

also if this truly is a quinton then if RC can ask for it's full cooperation there will also be
1 hexton
1 septon
25 pentadrones
64 quadrones
81 tridrones
and an unknown number of duodrones and monodrones (I suspect it's a lot)

I suspect in the limitations of the comic we're only going to see the duodrones and monodrones though (technicly the quinton shouldn't even be able to give orders to the singing monodrone as the modrons can only understand another modron of the same rank or one higher or lower)

[a_flemish_guy]

I always assumed Primus was just a very powerful outsider.

I think he's an avatar of the plane of mechanus itself

[Fyraltari]

also if this truly is a quinton then if RC can ask for it's full cooperation there will also be
1 hexton
1 septon
25 pentadrones
64 quadrones
81 tridrones
and an unknown number of duodrones and monodrones (I suspect it's a lot)

Considering that Modrons probably don't sit on their hands all day and have business to attend to, I doubt Redcloak can afford all of that.