Gestalt core builds help

[Rleonardh]

First time ever considered this type of builds, so be gentle 😂

My thoughts considering action economy and MAD
Bard/fighter
Cleric/fighter
Druid/fighter or monk if flurry of blows is allowed in wild shape
Sorcerer/paladin
Wizard/rogue

Fighter even if weak physical gains Bab and feats
Paladin gains cha to saves plus Bab which sorcerer can use for touch attacks
Rogue due to wizard high int for more skills

Also lets say I want to do,
Cleric 6/fighter 6 and want to go radiant servent of pelor at 7th level
Is it than cleric 6/fighter 7/rsop 1 or cleric 7/fighter 7/ rsop 1??

[Particle_Man]

I think it would be cleric 6/rsop 1//fighter 7.

As for your choices, I think bard/fighter would be fun..

For a power move you could go cleric/druid since wisdom fuels them both.

[pabelfly]

First time ever considered this type of builds, so be gentle 😂

My thoughts considering action economy and MAD
Bard/fighter
Cleric/fighter
Druid/fighter or monk if flurry of blows is allowed in wild shape
Sorcerer/paladin
Wizard/rogue

Fighter even if weak physical gains Bab and feats
Paladin gains cha to saves plus Bab which sorcerer can use for touch attacks
Rogue due to wizard high int for more skills

Also lets say I want to do,
Cleric 6/fighter 6 and want to go radiant servent of pelor at 7th level
Is it than cleric 6/fighter 7/rsop 1 or cleric 7/fighter 7/ rsop 1??

To clarify, you're combining two core classes in a 20 X / 20 Y build. Are you allowed any feats from outside of Core?

[Rleonardh]

Oh everything is on table, this is to get started and getting to understand the basics of how choose best combo classes, what to look for and such.

[pabelfly]

Typically you want an active class, or one that has abilities you use each turn, and a passive class, or one with bonuses that are always on. It's also good to try to get a class that fixes up some weaknesses of the other - BAB, saves, etc.

It's also good if you combine classes with similar stat focuses for synergy. For example, Paladin with Serenity feat and trades spells for extra feats goes well with Cleric. You get two turning pools, WIS is your main stat for both, and Paladin bonus feats include Extra Turning, which boosts both of your turning pools by 4 each. Paladin boosts your saves, BAB and HP while Cleric gives you full casting.

[Rleonardh]

Yah I did consider cleric/paladin however the feats that fighter gets you can do DMM persistent and fighter feats.

[pabelfly]

Yah I did consider cleric/paladin however the feats that fighter gets you can do DMM persistent and fighter feats.

Paladin/Cleric would get more than double the turnong pool since you can key all Turning attempts off WIS instead of CHA, and you'd get Extra Turning as a bonus feat. But the best character is always the one you want to play, and DMM Cleric would greatly help a Fighter.

[Biggus]

Typically you want an active class, or one that has abilities you use each turn, and a passive class, or one with bonuses that are always on.

Can you give some examples of what you consider active and passive classes?

[pabelfly]

Can you give some examples of what you consider active and passive classes?

I read about active and passive classes on the gestalt handbook, I'll try to give a few examples:

Let's say we have a Cleric/Serenity Paladin gestalt. Cleric is active in that it can spend turns in combat casting. Paladin is passive in that it makes the Cleric more effective without requiring turns in combat. It gives the Cleric full BAB, much higher saves, slightly more HP, and a much larger turning pool for DMM-based shenanigans.

An example of two active classes would be, say, Wizard and Psion. You get lots of spells with the two so you're extra versatile, sure, but a lot of that extra casting power is wasted since you can only cast once per turn and both classes want to be casting to be effective. Apart from the extra spells, Psion doesn't really help Wizard, or vice versa, besides giving eachother more flexibility with spells/psionic powers.

Some more passive classes might include Binder and Totemist, depending on build, since you prep your class and get various abilities without having to worry about your stats or turn economy.

I haven't played as much gestalt as I'd have liked so I'm perfectly happy to be corrected here though.

[Maat Mons]

For the Sorcerer // Paladin option, you could use From Smite to Song to get one of the best parts of Bard. Just make sure to pick up Melodic Casting so you have full use of your Sorcerer spells while using Inspire Courage. The only annoying thing about such a build is that you'd need to go a bit out of your way to utilize the heavy armor proficiency without hindering your casting.

There's a charging-focused Barbarian ACF in the Cityscape web article that might be kind of fun in gestalt. Though using Rage without hindering your casting requires some hoop-jumping.

If using Cleric in gestalt, you may as well use Cloistered Cleric.

[lylsyly]

A core only gestalt build I've had fun with is straight Ranger 20 /// Cleric 20.
Full BAB, all good saves, and full Cleric casting. Proficiency with Martial Weapons and all Armor.
Can be built as a primary Archer/Melee/Caster depending on your feats. Or you can do a little mix-n-match.

[Rleonardh]

For the Sorcerer // Paladin option, you could use From Smite to Song to get one of the best parts of Bard. Just make sure to pick up Melodic Casting so you have full use of your Sorcerer spells while using Inspire Courage. The only annoying thing about such a build is that you'd need to go a bit out of your way to utilize the heavy armor proficiency without hindering your casting.

There's a charging-focused Barbarian ACF in the Cityscape web article that might be kind of fun in gestalt. Though using Rage without hindering your casting requires some hoop-jumping.

If using Cleric in gestalt, you may as well use Cloistered Cleric.

Cloistered Cleric/fighter with correct domains
Is old fighter/rogue/cleric multi class. Love it.

[Gnaeus]

I read about active and passive classes on the gestalt handbook, I'll try to give a few examples:

Let's say we have a Cleric/Serenity Paladin gestalt. Cleric is active in that it can spend turns in combat casting. Paladin is passive in that it makes the Cleric more effective without requiring turns in combat. It gives the Cleric full BAB, much higher saves, slightly more HP, and a much larger turning pool for DMM-based shenanigans.

An example of two active classes would be, say, Wizard and Psion. You get lots of spells with the two so you're extra versatile, sure, but a lot of that extra casting power is wasted since you can only cast once per turn and both classes want to be casting to be effective. Apart from the extra spells, Psion doesn't really help Wizard, or vice versa, besides giving eachother more flexibility with spells/psionic powers.

Some more passive classes might include Binder and Totemist, depending on build, since you prep your class and get various abilities without having to worry about your stats or turn economy.

I haven't played as much gestalt as I'd have liked so I'm perfectly happy to be corrected here though.

This is basically correct, although caster classes aren't terrible as passive classes either. This is because you can pick spells as long term buffs for your passive class. It's really about action economy and maximizing the impact of your turns. So for example you could be a WIZARD//fighter, and use fighter for feats like blind fighting, dodge, weapon focus (Ranged Touch), PB and Precise shot, and play like a better wizard. or you could be a wizard//FIGHTER, and load up on extended buffs, swift action spells, hour/level duration stuff like false life and greater magic weapon, and play like a better fighter. You just have to remember that while you CAN in gestalt make a character who can swing a sword and cast scorching ray, he usually can't do both, so its better to do one thing well than 2 things ok.

So while cleric//wizard, for example, can't (usually) cast 2 spells per round, you could build a cleric//wizard just like you would build any other wizard, but with better fort and hp. Focus on int over wis. And pick for your cleric spells a bunch of heals and buffs that you cast out of combat (and maybe some combat utility spells like resist energy that don't use saves), leaving you free to devote all your wizard spells to combat options. Maybe specialize and dump abjuration and necromancy, since most of the useful spells in those schools can be gotten from cleric... The key is that cleric is helping you be a better wizard, rather than competing with wizard for actions and build resources.

[ciopo]

Personally when I dream of gestalting my druid, tacking on spellless ranger on the other side is where my mind goes, especially if that natural attacks fightning style is allowed.

Now for a little hijacking : does an hypothetical figther1/wizard19//psion20 end up with full BAB?

[pabelfly]

This is basically correct, although caster classes aren't terrible as passive classes either. This is because you can pick spells as long term buffs for your passive class. It's really about action economy and maximizing the impact of your turns. So for example you could be a WIZARD//fighter, and use fighter for feats like blind fighting, dodge, weapon focus (Ranged Touch), PB and Precise shot, and play like a better wizard. or you could be a wizard//FIGHTER, and load up on extended buffs, swift action spells, hour/level duration stuff like false life and greater magic weapon, and play like a better fighter. You just have to remember that while you CAN in gestalt make a character who can swing a sword and cast scorching ray, he usually can't do both, so its better to do one thing well than 2 things ok.

So while cleric//wizard, for example, can't (usually) cast 2 spells per round, you could build a cleric//wizard just like you would build any other wizard, but with better fort and hp. Focus on int over wis. And pick for your cleric spells a bunch of heals and buffs that you cast out of combat (and maybe some combat utility spells like resist energy that don't use saves), leaving you free to devote all your wizard spells to combat options. Maybe specialize and dump abjuration and necromancy, since most of the useful spells in those schools can be gotten from cleric... The key is that cleric is helping you be a better wizard, rather than competing with wizard for actions and build resources.

Cool, thanks for the clarification.

[ericgrau]

Monk // sorcerer or wizard is a nice way to use the passive monk bonuses to AC and saves on a caster. Alternatively you can do passive buffs and make the monk the active side. For example chill touch goes well with many attacks. Or mix and match; primarily one but with the other as an option.

If you are doing a lot of dungeons and not wilderness then cleric // druid is a good way to stack 10 min/level buffs from the many slots you have, besides the wis synergy. Similarly sorcerer // wizard can pile on hour/level buffs with the extra lower level slots, on top of having more high level options. Lesser rod(s) of extend spell are helpful either way. False life and empowered false life will help with the lack of HP compared to other gestalts in the party. On that note you can put good metamagic augmentable spells into the sorcerer list so you can decide which to use on the fly. Though since wizard is 1/2 spell level ahead you may want some big booms on his list. Like fireball/empowered-fireball until level 10 or so when it starts to get swapped for other options. If not doing dungeons consistently you can swap in 10 min/level buffs on the wizard side then swap them out when you're back in the wilderness. On the wizard side you can ban schools that only have a few core spells you need and stick them on the sorcerer side. Abjuration, transmutation and illusion (especially if mainly using it for invisibilities) come to mind. Illusion in particular since both the invisibilities and images, if you use them, are nice to spam with a sorcerer. Abjuration especially if a party divine caster covers it instead of sorcerer, but it works either way. While you use few transmutations, most are only used once a day so it might fit better with wizard. But it's an option. EDIT: to reduce MAD you probably also want to do a high mental ability score on one side and try to restrict the other side to spells that don't really depend on it. Fortunately there are a lot of really good spells for this.

Barbarian // druid for raging wildshape, HP and BAB. Tough with natural spell but you can always rage round 2 or 3.

Fighter // rogue or Barbarian // rogue for a heavy hitter as you add full BAB, strength damage and better armor to sneak attacks. Also has good skills.

I'll add that while you primarily want to do active // passive or otherwise 2 things that can be done in the same round, having more options is nice when you can do it without sacrificing too much power.

[Gnaeus]

I'll add that while you primarily want to do active // passive or otherwise 2 things that can be done in the same round, having more options is nice when you can do it without sacrificing too much power.

My rule of thumb (in or out of gestalt) is that you want to focus your optimization resources on your default combat plan, while at the same time having at least 3 really different options that are level appropriate and can be used if the default option is inappropriate. So fighter is T4-5 because if his default option is (hit it with sword) his other options are probably (shoot it poorly with bow), (Grapple or trip poorly), (drink a potion). Whereas a CoDzilla probably has (hit it in melee), (Cast attack spell), (Cast buff spell), (heal) as his basic options, and those are obviously much more versatile choices, both tactically and in terms of what defenses they can target.

[Biggus]

I read about active and passive classes on the gestalt handbook, I'll try to give a few examples:

Let's say we have a Cleric/Serenity Paladin gestalt. Cleric is active in that it can spend turns in combat casting. Paladin is passive in that it makes the Cleric more effective without requiring turns in combat. It gives the Cleric full BAB, much higher saves, slightly more HP, and a much larger turning pool for DMM-based shenanigans.

An example of two active classes would be, say, Wizard and Psion. You get lots of spells with the two so you're extra versatile, sure, but a lot of that extra casting power is wasted since you can only cast once per turn and both classes want to be casting to be effective. Apart from the extra spells, Psion doesn't really help Wizard, or vice versa, besides giving eachother more flexibility with spells/psionic powers.

Some more passive classes might include Binder and Totemist, depending on build, since you prep your class and get various abilities without having to worry about your stats or turn economy.

I haven't played as much gestalt as I'd have liked so I'm perfectly happy to be corrected here though.


This is basically correct, although caster classes aren't terrible as passive classes either. This is because you can pick spells as long term buffs for your passive class. It's really about action economy and maximizing the impact of your turns. So for example you could be a WIZARD//fighter, and use fighter for feats like blind fighting, dodge, weapon focus (Ranged Touch), PB and Precise shot, and play like a better wizard. or you could be a wizard//FIGHTER, and load up on extended buffs, swift action spells, hour/level duration stuff like false life and greater magic weapon, and play like a better fighter. You just have to remember that while you CAN in gestalt make a character who can swing a sword and cast scorching ray, he usually can't do both, so its better to do one thing well than 2 things ok.

So while cleric//wizard, for example, can't (usually) cast 2 spells per round, you could build a cleric//wizard just like you would build any other wizard, but with better fort and hp. Focus on int over wis. And pick for your cleric spells a bunch of heals and buffs that you cast out of combat (and maybe some combat utility spells like resist energy that don't use saves), leaving you free to devote all your wizard spells to combat options. Maybe specialize and dump abjuration and necromancy, since most of the useful spells in those schools can be gotten from cleric... The key is that cleric is helping you be a better wizard, rather than competing with wizard for actions and build resources.

Thank you. So it's not so much that there are classes which are active or passive, as that you choose one class to be your active class and then choose another class which has passive abilities which support the first one?

[pabelfly]

Thank you. So it's not so much that there are classes which are active or passive, as that you choose one class to be your active class and then choose another class which has passive abilities which support the first one?

That's a good way to put it.

[Rebel7284]

Thank you. So it's not so much that there are classes which are active or passive, as that you choose one class to be your active class and then choose another class which has passive abilities which support the first one?

Exactly this. You focus on something that is already powerful and then find other classes that augment that or cover its weaknesses.

Examples:
Sorcerer//Paladin: Sorcerer has the powerful spells but has a weak chassis (low bab/saves/HD). Paladin gives you a much better chassis (reflex save is still bad) and also additional defenses with charisma to saves. In combat you are still mostly a sorcerer, but now are much less fragile and have the option to pick up a sword if worst comes to worst as a secondary option. You also have limited healing which is nifty in a pinch and can share spell with multiple targets.

Druid//Monk or Druid//Cleric 1/Monk 19: Druid possibly needs the least help as it already can do everything reasonably well, but Monk allows you to do a full attack with Unarmed Strike in any form and then use all natural weapons as secondary weapons making those bear/tiger forms SIGNIFICANTLY more dangerous while giving you Wisdom to AC. Also fixes your reflex save while giving you evasion/improved evasion. Cleric is very helpful as a dip if Divine Megamagic is allowed since having your buffs last all day is incredible, but you only need one level.

Wizard//Rogue (or Factotum if out of core): You double dip intelligence both for your spells and many skill points all while greatly improving your chassis and having other defensive abilities like Evasion (and possibly improved evasion) and can add sneak attack to your touch spells/ranged touch spells too! Factotum is better since you can also add Int to AC/Saves/Attack. Your chassis is still not the best (Barbarian or Warblade is where you go for that) but, you are certainly better than a regular wizard.

Basically you chose a powerful class, often a spellcaster but anything that has powerful effects can work, and then find other classes that use similar stats and give abilities that augment what you are doing without requiring actions and/or improve your chassis/defenses.

[Particle_Man]

If you do Illusionist/Ranger you could play one of the original six from The Order of the Scribble (only 3rd ed). Most people pooh-pooh the ranger, but hey, the mix gives you all good saves and good BAB, plus more skill points and some nice extra skill choices. That ain't a bad chassis.

Just don't get into any party-shattering arguments with the party paladin and you will be fine. :smallbiggrin:

[Gnaeus]

Thank you. So it's not so much that there are classes which are active or passive, as that you choose one class to be your active class and then choose another class which has passive abilities which support the first one?

I mean, there are classes which are inherently passive. Like Dragon Shaman, which is pretty much ONLY a passive class. Or which are disproportionately good at it, like virtually any class that can give stat bonuses. And there are some classes that don't offer much as a passive class. Like Warmage, which doesn't offer much that isn't a combat action to cast. And of course any T1-T2 can be built to do either, because thats what T1-2 list means. But otherwise yes.

[Biggus]

I mean, there are classes which are inherently passive. Like Dragon Shaman, which is pretty much ONLY a passive class. Or which are disproportionately good at it, like virtually any class that can give stat bonuses. And there are some classes that don't offer much as a passive class. Like Warmage, which doesn't offer much that isn't a combat action to cast. And of course any T1-T2 can be built to do either, because thats what T1-2 list means. But otherwise yes.

Hmm, OK, thanks. I don't know Dragon Shaman very well. The base classes I know well are:

The 11 core classes

The 5 OA classes (and their 3.5 updates, where relevant)

Dread Necromancer, Favored Soul, Mystic Ranger, Warmage, Warlock, Healer, Duskblade, Scout, Marshal, Hexblade, Swashbuckler, Knight.

Other than Warmage which you already mentioned, are there any of those you consider inherently active or passive? I feel like I sort of understand what you're getting at but I'd like to understand better.

[Jack_Simth]

1) Avoid MAD, look for SAD. Sure, that Paladin//Wizard looks great on paper... but to play him as a Paladin and a Wizard, you need Str (melee), Dex (AC, as you can't use armor), Con (HP), Int (Spells), Wis (Spells again), and Cha (Various Paladin class features). The Paladin//Sorcerer, on the other hand, is no more MAD than a normal Paladin (Str for melee, Con for HP, charisma for spells and Paladin class features, maybe a touch of Wis for Paladin spells - no need for Dex, as you've got heavy armor proficiency).

2) Watch the Action Economy, look for passive/active combinations. Sure, that Wizard//Cleric looks good on paper (ALL THE SPELLS ALL THE TIME), but it doesn't work out that way generally - both classes are competing for the same set of actions, so you're not really significantly better than a normal Cleric or a normal Wizard. Something like a Rogue//Druid, on the other hand, is passively adding sneak attack dice to the multiple natural attacks + Pounce that the Druid gets through Wildshape; as a combat druid, it's all using the same set of actions at once. An Wilder//Paladin gets a lot of nice passive benefits from the Paladin side (Divine grace, swift-action self healing, heavy armor proficiency, full BAB, d10 HD), and can do some very active stuff with the Wilder side (powers and/or long-term buffs to wade into melee).

3) Avoid class features that interfere with each other. Sure, that Sorcerer//Paladin looks pretty good... but it's hard to cast Arcane spells in heavy armor, so you need to either give up much of the Sorcerer casting, or you need to give up much of the cheap AC that comes from heavy armor that the Paladin side lets you use. If you use a Divine caster instead of an Arcane one, however, there's no problems casting in armor.

4) Make sure to end up with a nice chassis. Yes, that Wizard//Sorcerer ends up with ultimate arcane might... but it's a d4 hit die, one good save, and poor BAB. You want at least two good saves (and can usually get three), a d8 hit die (although d10 is better), and at least medium BAB. That Druid//Rogue gets a d8 HD, all good saves, and medium BAB. That Paladin//Wilder gets d10 HD, two good saves, and full BAB.

5) The game still rewards specialization. Unless you're short party members, don't try to be a Jack of all trades, as you're likely to end up a master of none. You've only got one set of feats, one allocation of wealth, and so on. A Paladin//wilder and an Wilder//paladin look very similar if that's all you know about them, but they're actually quite different. The first uses Wilder buffs to supplement the Paladin abilities and wade into melee, and picks up feats and items primarily related to melee (so Power Attack, cleave, a nice sword, good armor, and so on). The second uses Paladin benefits to be able to slack off on a few things the Wilder would otherwise need while the Wilder zaps away with powers (so metapsionics, Charisma boosters, metapsionic rods, and so on). They play quite differently. If you try to be a full Wilder//Paladin, however, your feats and wealth are going to be stretched quite thin, and you'll be less useful at either role.

Oh yes, and you may have problems obeying all of these completely. That's actually OK. You'll usually end up not using at least some class features - for instance, that Wilder//paladin isn't going to be getting much use out of that full BAB, due to how easy it is to land (ranged) touch spells. It's still a strong combination. All else being equal, the more of these you can follow, and the better you can follow them, the stronger overall the character. However: Character power does not trump player or DM fun. It's hard to stress that enough. You're playing a game with no real stakes. The only true definition of winning is "Did everyone have consequence-free fun?" If the answer is yes, then you won. If the answer is no, then you lost. In the end, your character doesn't really matter: You do, and your friends do. If everyone has fun playing a party of bards that get TPK'd every other session? That's a win. If everyone has fun playing a party of optimized characters that roll over CR+10 encounters? That's a win too. If someone at the table is perpetually bored with the uber-characters, that's a loss. If something in-game breaks a real-life friendship, that's a loss too. Know your actual priorities.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm, OK, thanks. I don't know Dragon Shaman very well. The base classes I know well are:

The 11 core classes

The 5 OA classes (and their 3.5 updates, where relevant)

Dread Necromancer, Favored Soul, Mystic Ranger, Warmage, Warlock, Healer, Duskblade, Scout, Marshal, Hexblade, Swashbuckler, Knight.

Other than Warmage which you already mentioned, are there any of those you consider inherently active or passive? I feel like I sort of understand what you're getting at but I'd like to understand better.

If I remember correctly, Paladin makes an exceptional passive, because the Battle Blessing feat lets you cast most of your Paladin spells as swift actions, letting you treat it almost like a second active class and really crush the action economy. You can do Paladin as the active class, though; it just makes a really good passive.

Marshal is another passive class for much the same reason Dragon Shaman is: the auras don't take actions, so you can devote your entire action economy to your active class.

[Particle_Man]

I think Warmage pretty much can't be passive, so I would put that in the active camp.

[Anthrowhale]

Sha'ir//paladin might be interesting as a gish. Take Alternative Source Spell at level 1 to cast any Sha'ir spell in heavy armor. Use the wizard transformation spells (possibly with DMM[Persist]) for hefty attacks. Take Battle Blessing to quicken all Paladin spells.

[Biggus]

1) Avoid MAD, look for SAD. Sure, that Paladin//Wizard looks great on paper... but to play him as a Paladin and a Wizard, you need Str (melee), Dex (AC, as you can't use armor), Con (HP), Int (Spells), Wis (Spells again), and Cha (Various Paladin class features). The Paladin//Sorcerer, on the other hand, is no more MAD than a normal Paladin (Str for melee, Con for HP, charisma for spells and Paladin class features, maybe a touch of Wis for Paladin spells - no need for Dex, as you've got heavy armor proficiency).


Why can a Paladin//Sorcerer use armor but not a Paladin//Wizard?

[Rleonardh]

Why can a Paladin//Sorcerer use armor but not a Paladin//Wizard?

It's not that it's the sorcerer is cha and paladin save to all throws are cha based.
Think it was miss written

[pabelfly]

It's not that it's the sorcerer is cha and paladin save to all throws are cha based.
Think it was miss written

Maybe Impromptu metamagic and the Still Spell feat?

[Particle_Man]

Well a dwarf could take runesmith on the wizard side to get around the armour issue. A well-armoured fighter class that likes int might be trickier. Warblade, perhaps? Or a fighter that uses the Knowledge devotion and trip?

[Anthrowhale]

Well a dwarf could take runesmith on the wizard side to get around the armour issue.
Runesmith is quite nice. It comes online at ECL 6.

Another class-based approach is via Geomancer's Spell Versatility which starts at ECL 4 with level 0 spells while covering everything by ECL 8 or so with something like Sha'ir 3/Geomancer//Paladin.

[Anthrowhale]

Another approach is Wizard[Abyssal Specialist, Aligned Spellcaster[chaotic]]//Duskblade taking the Theurgic Specialist feat at level 3.

As a Wizard, you enjoy double caster level for all spells except [lawful], full BAB, a good fort save, some backup spontaneity, free quicken spell, and a d8 hit dice.

As a Duskblade, you can use arcane channeling on a much wider range of spells, and benefit from the much wider array of buff spells available including Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange. Using Full Attack Channeling with L1 Lesser Shivering Touch (1d6 dex), L2 Combust (10d8 fire), L3 Shivering Touch (3d6 dex), or L5 Night's Caress (15d6 untyped) under a Wraithstrike seems devastating.

Overall, perhaps overpowered.

[lylsyly]

Outside of Core, since Duskblade has been mentioned I've had tons of fun with Duskblade 20///Archivist 20. Both INT based. You have to keep a prayerbook and learn spells just like a Wizard. But you are a divine caster that doesn't care about armor. You are good at mixing it up in melee and you are also a T1 caster ;-)

[Maat Mons]

On the subject of gestalting Cleric // Ranger, what options are there for utilizing Cleric's heavy armor proficiency without running afoul of Combat Style's limitation to light or no armor? The only thing that really springs to mind is the UA variant that gets Wild Shape.

On the other hand, you could embrace the light armor thing. You could go Cloistered Cleric to get the Knowledge domain in exchange for the normal heavy armor proficiency. The skill points wind up redundant, but if you weren't going to use heavy armor anyway, there's no real downside.

Dragon magazine has Moon-Warded Ranger, which gets Wis to AC in light or no armor. With the kind of Wis scores most Clerics sport, that could get you better AC in light armor than most people get in heavy armor.

[lylsyly]

the nice thing about Cloistered Cleric///Ranger is better skill list. full bab all good saves martial weapons. Probably go Archery and DMM Persist to buff your Archery. Plenty of combat options (melee/archery/cast spells) and plenty of out of combat options as well.

[Jack_Simth]

Why can a Paladin//Sorcerer use armor but not a Paladin//Wizard?

Multiple edits and missed some details. It's a copy of a post that was originally meant for Pathfinder. Used Oracle in the original.

[Gnaeus]

Passive classes:
Either don’t have a clear role or aren’t good at it. If it has a spell list, it doesn’t have enough spells per day to be an active caster, or spells are mostly designed for non-combat utility. Often primarily good because of passive abilities or chassis. Don’t tend to interfere with what the primary class is doing. Provide benefits with minimal stat allocation. If you wonder what it does in combat or it fights at or below fighter level. Generally low tier (which is probably part of why I like low tier gestalts so much) The higher tier ones are more likely to be functional (if suboptimal) active classes:
Aristocrat, Expert and Warrior:
If they offer anything, it is skills/BAB/Proficiencies
Marshal, Dragon Shaman, Divine Mind:
Aura classes. DM provides limited psionic access. DS limited healing.
CW Samurai:
Improved initiative and some cha synergy. Good BAB.
Soulknife:
WBL the class. Decent passive for any melee attacker. Provides limited psionic access
Knight:
Taunt as a class. Mostly defensive abilities. Good HP and a rare +will on a good bab chassis.
Noble:
See NPC classes, and add favors from NPCs
Soulborn:
There are lots of incarna feats that add benefits to unrelated class abilities. Good BAB, situational immunities
Magewright:
A list of mostly non-combat spells.
Swashbuckler:
Good BAB. Specials that pair well with better classes, like int to damage for mage types, or grace (which stacks with good reflex) for rogue types.
OA Samurai:
Like a second rate fighter with a minor in soulknife.
Mountebank:
A collection of utility powers and lots of Alter Self
Battle Dancer:
Like Monk, but Cha to AC and good BAB.
Monk:
Good chassis. Wis to AC. Lots of passive defenses like evasion and immunities
Hexblade:
Pet. Mettle. Cha to saves. Good BAB. A surprisingly deep spell list for use with wands.
Sohei
2 good saves. Defensive abilities. Clericish list but too slow/too few to be active caster
Healer:
Pet. Heals.
Savant and Factotum:
No focus. Pretty certain to be support for whatever the other side is. Spells too slow/too few to be an active caster
Ninja:
Wis to AC, skills, invisibility contribute to almost anything, but not really good as a fighter itself
Scout:
Skills and a bunch of movement and defensive abilities
Racial Paragon classes:
Rarely have any active abilities. Mostly taken for stat bumps that help the active class.
Paladin
Cha to saves. Bad spell list but swift action casts with battle blessing. Situational defenses. pet.
Ranger.
Good skills and chassis. Utility spell list is good for wand support. pet
Monster classes/LA/Templates:
Mostly taken for stat boosts and passive abilities like NA.

Active Classes:
Truenamer:
The only T5 I consider active. Buffs are short duration. Mostly combatish powers. Really needs a gestalt to help it function.
Barbarian:
Rage doesn’t play well with others. A decent enough melee combatant to hold the role and unlikely to be picked as a passive class.
Duskblade:
Mostly active. Lots of combat spells and touch attacks.
Warlock:
Mostly active. Tends to be blasty. Could be used passively for crafting and utility powers.
WS Ranger:
Really all about abusing wildshape.
Warmage:
List is heavily blasty
DFA:
Breath weapons are active.

Either:
Every T1-2
Any T1 can be an active or passive based on the day. Any T2 can be built actively or passively. They tend to be active (at least after about level 7) just because their actions are potentially so good.
ToB classes:
Tend to be active. But you can build any of them around swift action counters.
Fighter:
Capable of being a decent melee combatant, which is active. But you can take a bunch of defensive feats or specialized feats to help other class features, like weapon focus/specialization Ranged touch.
Rogue:
Skills and Evasion are passive. SA tends active. Probably altogether passive like the other skillmonkeys.
Adept:
Too blasty for me to consider passive. Not enough spells for me to consider active. Pet is passive. Leans passive.
Shadowcaster:
Like Adept, tends not to have enough spells per day to really be active. But has a good selection of level appropriate active abilities. Can be built extremely passively as a source of metamagic feats for an active caster side.
Psy Warrior:
Probably active, but a reasonable buff selection and lots of fighter or psychic feats
Beguiler and DN:
Probably active. Both want to cast in combat. But Beguiler has skill support and DN some decent buffs.
Wilder:
Can be built either way like a T2
Bard:
Has enough pre combat buffs that it could be passive. Bardsong itself is activeish, as it is an in-combat action requiring buff, unless something changes that.

Obviously, this is kind of subjective, and can vary by combination. Soulknife, for example, is SO passive that it will tend to be passive in any combination with a melee class. Soulknife//swashbuckler probably plays like swashbuckler, and soulknife//samurai like samurai. But in some cases classes are passive just because they are so bad at what they do. You could play a sorcerer//samurai emphasizing samurai, but there's very little reason to do that.

Higher tier classes tend to be more active, because they have better actions, but being more versatile, are also more likely to be able to switch roles. Even if a wizard//fighter is heavily built to favor wizard, with defensive/passive feats and a wizard-like stat allocation, it could on any given day decide to load up on quickened polymorphs and long term buff spells and spend its actions swinging a sword. I consider 10minute/level or longer buffs to be passive, round/level buffs to be active. Minute/level buffs borderline.

[Biggus]

<loads of stuff>


Thank you very much! That helps a lot. Just a couple of minor quibbles:



Fighter:
Capable of being a decent melee combatant, which is active. But you can take a bunch of defensive feats or specialized feats to help other class features, like weapon focus/specialization Ranged touch.

I don't think you can take Weapon Specialisation for (ranged) touch attacks. You can certainly take Weapon Focus and Improved Critical though.



Bard:
Has enough pre combat buffs that it could be passive. Bardsong itself is activeish, as it is an in-combat action requiring buff, unless something changes that.


What pre-combat buffs are you talking about? I was just having a look at the Bard today and concluded it was an active class as almost all of its buffs are short duration, the only long duration ones I could find were Heroism, Glibness and See Invisibility.

Also, are there ways to make bardsong not require an in-combat action? The only thing I know of is Lingering Song, which is an epic feat and still only makes it last 5 minutes.

[Rleonardh]

Cleric/fighter
Druid/rogue
Sorcerer/monk
Wizard/monk
Monk on above two not for the dex and Wis part to ac that's a bonus with items and what not, but the other parts like saves and evasion.
Other thought was ranger instead of monk.

Bard is where I'm struggling
Bard/fighter
Bard/sorcerer as both cha and bard has some cleric spells plus can take arcane ones that free up sorcerer for other ones. Action economy is a factor but not as much as say a cleric/wizard.

Thoughts?

Only reason I leave out paladin is I hate the alignment system, honestly as dm I don't run alignment unless you play a paladin as a evil character. So for the examples I don't consider that class and look for one size fits all builds. Otherwise
Cleric/paladin
Sorcerer/paladin

[pabelfly]

Cleric/fighter
Druid/rogue
Sorcerer/monk
Wizard/monk
Monk on above two not for the dex and Wis part to ac that's a bonus with items and what not, but the other parts like saves and evasion.
Other thought was ranger instead of monk.

Bard is where I'm struggling
Bard/fighter
Bard/sorcerer as both cha and bard has some cleric spells plus can take arcane ones that free up sorcerer for other ones. Action economy is a factor but not as much as say a cleric/wizard.

Thoughts?

Only reason I leave out paladin is I hate the alignment system, honestly as dm I don't run alignment unless you play a paladin as a evil character. So for the examples I don't consider that class and look for one size fits all builds. Otherwise
Cleric/paladin
Sorcerer/paladin

Sorcerer/Monk can get the Ascetic Mage feat, which you'd probably appreciate for a gestalt build. You get CHA to your AC and you might be able to see your DM about stacking Monk and Sorcerer levels for unarmored AC and how effective that would be (if you can stack even at level 20, you're looking at an extra 8 AC instead of 4 if stacking doesn't count beyond a total of 20 levels). The other effect of the feat, sacrificing spell slots for a slight damage boost is less appealing, since you'll have better spells for boosting unarmed damage. But overall, one feat that dramatically boosts all AC types is very appealing.

I'd check out the multiclassing feats thread and see if you can find other synergies you'd want to exploit for a gestalt build: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?210550-Multiclassing-Feats

Other than that, if you don't like Paladins, I don't have any further opinion.

[Anthrowhale]

You might also consider Rogue//cleric. The cleric is a natural and complementary buffer, including Divine Power (full BAB) and Guidance of the Avatar+Divine Insight (skill boosts). Take the Sacred Outlaw feat and you'll double advance sneak attack. Later Sense Weakness+Surge of Fortune comes online. Full BAB (via DMM[persist] divine power), all good saves, 8+Int skills/level, etc...

[Rleonardh]

Other than that, if you don't like Paladins, I don't have any further opinion.

Ohh I love paladin as long as alignment is not enforced unless you trying to be evil.

This makes me wonder about extra turning?
Does it add 4 to each pool?

[pabelfly]

Ohh I love paladin as long as alignment is not enforced unless you trying to be evil.

This makes me wonder about extra turning?
Does it add 4 to each pool?

Yes it does.

[Troacctid]

I don't think you can take Weapon Specialisation for (ranged) touch attacks. You can certainly take Weapon Focus and Improved Critical though.
You can, but most casters probably prefer Ranged Spell Specialization, which doesn't require any fighter levels.

[Jervis]

I recommend being a half elven ranger gestalt.

The other half is also ranger.

[Biggus]

You can, but most casters probably prefer Ranged Spell Specialization, which doesn't require any fighter levels.

Can you? Where does it say that?



This makes me wonder about extra turning?
Does it add 4 to each pool?

It does if you have two different types of turning, but if you get turn undead from both sides of a gestalt you don't get it twice:



Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

[Jack_Simth]

Cleric/fighter
Druid/rogue
Sorcerer/monk
Wizard/monk
Monk on above two not for the dex and Wis part to ac that's a bonus with items and what not, but the other parts like saves and evasion.
Other thought was ranger instead of monk.
There's a multiclass feat, Ascetic Mage (Complete Adventurer), that switches some of the more important Wis-based monk stuff to Cha for the sorcerer and adds an option (spending spell slots to boost attack/damage) and makes Sorcerer and monk levels stack for AC bonus and unarmed strike. There's one for the Wizard build, Kung Fu Genius (Dragon Compendium) that switches all Wis-based monk abilities to Int... but doesn't add anything else. But that's how you make those solid.

Note that Druid//Ninja is mostly better than Druid//Rogue, due to the Wis-based nature of Ninja (swift action invisibility enables sudden strike for the many, many attacks a Druid can get with Wildshape on a pounce). But you did ask for more core builds.


Bard is where I'm struggling
Bard/fighter
Bard/sorcerer as both cha and bard has some cleric spells plus can take arcane ones that free up sorcerer for other ones. Action economy is a factor but not as much as say a cleric/wizard.

Thoughts?
Without support from other books, Bard is a Jack of All Trades, Master of None class. Makes a solid face and a decent buffer, but little else. When you add it to another class, it's not adding much to the other classes primary schtick, not does it properly have a primary schtick of it's own to shine. Thus, it doesn't support any particular build very well.

That said, with a lot of splatbook support, Bard can be many different things reasonably well. Can be a skillful Sorcerer (Sublime Chord, I'm looking at you), a potent melee or ranged combatant (Snowflake Wardance, Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows, Bow of Song), or even a Wizard-lite (Bard-5/Mage of the Arcane Order(Progressing Bard)-5/Sublime Chord-1/Mage of the Arcane Order(Progressing Sublime Chord)+4/Archmage(Progressing Sublime Chord)-5 - use Arcane Preparation to qualify for MotAO; feels very much like a wizard), or a shifter (look up the Chameleon PrC).

So any of the splatbook bard builds will gestalt OK with something that boosts the build's primary schtick... but that's a bit beyond the scope of what you're asking.

[Gnaeus]

What pre-combat buffs are you talking about? I was just having a look at the Bard today and concluded it was an active class as almost all of its buffs are short duration, the only long duration ones I could find were Heroism, Glibness and See Invisibility.

Also, are there ways to make bardsong not require an in-combat action? The only thing I know of is Lingering Song, which is an epic feat and still only makes it last 5 minutes.

Song of the white raven is very much on table for a gestalt bard. Bard is very likely to be passive in a bard//crusader gestalt.

Heroism is the gold standard. Also alter self, a very good combat buff. But also bards are skillmonkeys, which is passive. Backup healers, which is passive. And utility casters. You could very easily set up a bard with divinations, heals and social spells, maybe throw an extended mirror image before kicking open a door

[lylsyly]

Gnaeus is right on this one. Do a cleric/crusader/ruby knignt vindicator on one side and simply roll bard 20 on the other.
given the right feats you are both a srong melee and strong caster on one side. Trade out some of your musics for things like healing hymn from eberron. Any skill points you dont HAVE to spend on the RKV side go into social skills, knowledges... you probably need 1 or 2 feats for the bard side, the rest can go to the other. Other than a few low level gems (grease comes to mind) that clerics don't really get focus your spells known on spells that enhance your social skills and some utility spells.

During combat your RKV side would be active and out of combat your bard side would be active.

[RandomPeasant]

Honestly, Bardblade is probably the way to go even in gestalt. It gets you most of what a martial Bard build wants already, and it's a single side that doesn't require a PrC. So you can combine it with a caster build that takes whatever PrCs it is that you want. You get less Bard casting, but you get a comparable amount of maneuvers and Cleric casting, and can even pick up RKV if you want (though personally I'd go Dwoemerkeeper, because awaken cheese combos with Snowflake Wardance).

I would also caution against relying too heavily on the "active class"/"passive class" paradigm, especially with ToB builds. Using spells to buff yourself up as a more effective bruiser (caster passive, ToB active), relying primarily on counters + IHS + WRT for your maneuvers (caster active, ToB passive), or using your maneuvers to contribute in fights that don't warrant expending spell slots (both active) are all viable. The real key to gestalt is that, because it overlaps rather than stacks, you want to combine things that are different rather than things that are the same (except that casting ability does stack, so you should just go SAD caster//caster). Active/passive is one example of that, but so is combing a class that gives at-will abilities with one that has daily limits or combining a build that relies on a PrC with a class that doesn't need them.

[lylsyly]

Bardblade is a good build. What I was doing was putting a fairly simple gestalt build out there that is "active" both in and out of combat. Thus eliminating the whole " passive/ inactive" concept!

[Jack_Simth]

Bardblade is a good build. What I was doing was putting a fairly simple gestalt build out there that is "active" both in and out of combat. Thus eliminating the whole " passive/ inactive" concept!You appear to be misunderstanding what's meant by "passive" in the 'active/passive combination' advice. It's not "active in combat, passive out", it's "these class features cost actions, and are 'active', these class features do not cost actions, and are 'passive'" - with an understanding that "cost actions" means "when time is being monitored closely"

A Paladin's d10 hit die and Divine Grace are "passive" benefits - you don't have to do anything to use them. A full attack, however, is active (it eats a full round action).
A Sorcerer's Mage Armor spell is usually going to be "passive" - it's cast out of combat due to the hours/level duration. A Fireball, however, is active (it eats a standard action).

A 6th level Sorcerer//Paladin can cast Fireball, or full attack, but not both on the same round. Fireball is an active ability, a full attack is an active ability. If all your abilities are active (in the sense of the above), then you're not generally going to be any better off round to round than a non-gestalt character. From a power perspective, you want a mix of both types.

[Gnaeus]

Gnaeus is right on this one. Do a cleric/crusader/ruby knignt vindicator on one side and simply roll bard 20 on the other.
given the right feats you are both a srong melee and strong caster on one side. Trade out some of your musics for things like healing hymn from eberron. Any skill points you dont HAVE to spend on the RKV side go into social skills, knowledges... you probably need 1 or 2 feats for the bard side, the rest can go to the other. Other than a few low level gems (grease comes to mind) that clerics don't really get focus your spells known on spells that enhance your social skills and some utility spells.

During combat your RKV side would be active and out of combat your bard side would be active.

Good advice if allowed. Do note that RKV is a good example of a dual progression class that is discouraged to be allowed in gestalt, so YMMV. I would not assume it is on a default table.

[Rleonardh]

Sorcerer with monk or ranger would work even rogue to a degree

[Quertus]

For the Druid // Monk, if they take Multi-Attack and Greater/Improved Multi-Attack (afb), would that mean that their natural attacks were without the secondary attack penalty?

If they used Flurry of Blows or Lightning Attack, would their natural attacks take those penalties?


Another approach is Wizard[Abyssal Specialist, Aligned Spellcaster[chaotic]]//Duskblade taking the Theurgic Specialist feat at level 3.

As a Wizard, you enjoy double caster level for all spells except [lawful], full BAB, a good fort save, some backup spontaneity, free quicken spell, and a d8 hit dice.

As a Duskblade, you can use arcane channeling on a much wider range of spells, and benefit from the much wider array of buff spells available including Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange. Using Full Attack Channeling with L1 Lesser Shivering Touch (1d6 dex), L2 Combust (10d8 fire), L3 Shivering Touch (3d6 dex), or L5 Night's Caress (15d6 untyped) under a Wraithstrike seems devastating.

Overall, perhaps overpowered.

I don’t understand how it all works, but… these discussions about boosted caster level usually involve Master Spellthief and Ur-Priest for some reason. And I’ve heard that there’s a feat that allows you to bypass caster level caps on spells?

If you put all that together, could you make combat healing viable? “My Cure Light Wounds heals 1d8+100”, or something? (Especially if you used Spell Points, to only spend 1 SP for each time you cast a Cure Light Wounds?)

[Anthrowhale]

I don’t understand how it all works, but…

Abyssal Specialist (Drow of the Underdark) makes a wizard that specializes in spells with descriptors [chaotic], [compulsion], [darkness], [evil], and [fear] at the cost of access to one school. Aligned Spellcaster (Dragon #357) trades your familiar for making all spells cast have an alignment descriptor unless they have the opposite descriptor. Theurgic Specialist adds all of your caster levels for specialist spells. (There are a couple other as well, like Psiotheurgist and Knight of the Weave.)


these discussions about boosted caster level usually involve Master Spellthief and Ur-Priest for some reason.

Master Spellthief stacks spellthief levels with arcane spellcaster levels to get caster level. This never exceeds character level. To exceed character level, you need something like Theurgic Specialist which stacks caster levels to get caster level.


And I’ve heard that there’s a feat that allows you to bypass caster level caps on spells?

There is Reserves of Strength, but whether or not it allows you to exceed caster level caps by more than 3 is something people fight about.

[Quertus]

EDIT: why are “skills” considered “passive”?


Abyssal Specialist (Drow of the Underdark) makes a wizard that specializes in spells with descriptors [chaotic], [compulsion], [darkness], [evil], and [fear] at the cost of access to one school. Aligned Spellcaster (Dragon #357) trades your familiar for making all spells cast have an alignment descriptor unless they have the opposite descriptor. Theurgic Specialist adds all of your caster levels for specialist spells. (There are a couple other as well, like Psiotheurgist and Knight of the Weave.)

Master Spellthief stacks spellthief levels with arcane spellcaster levels to get caster level. This never exceeds character level. To exceed character level, you need something like Theurgic Specialist which stacks caster levels to get caster level.

There is Reserves of Strength, but whether or not it allows you to exceed caster level caps by more than 3 is something people fight about.

Thanks for the explanations, that makes a lot of sense. Caster level optimization never really interested me, so I was coming at this pretty ignorant.

And… lol, I can see why people argue about that feat. So… is there even any agreement regarding whether you have to “take the pain” in order to benefit from the lack of / change in level cap, or do people debate that, too?

[Troacctid]

Abyssal Specialist (Drow of the Underdark) makes a wizard that specializes in spells with descriptors [chaotic], [compulsion], [darkness], [evil], and [fear] at the cost of access to one school. Aligned Spellcaster (Dragon #357) trades your familiar for making all spells cast have an alignment descriptor unless they have the opposite descriptor.
Aligned Spellcaster applies the descriptor on cast, while Abyssal Specialist needs you to have the descriptor during prep. So although Aligned Spellcaster has many cool combos, this isn't one of them. You need to put in some more levels to get Planar Wizard, which gives your spells the descriptor you want at all times.

[Anthrowhale]

Aligned Spellcaster applies the descriptor on cast, while Abyssal Specialist needs you to have the descriptor during prep.

If the point is that you can't prepare spells without the appropriate descriptors in specialist slots, I agree.

At casting time, you can add the alignment descriptor to the spell, making it a specialist spell. Given the general principle of being able to add properties in the character's preferred order, you can then determine caster level (which is also determined on cast).


EDIT: why are “skills” considered “passive”?
This is just out-of-combat skills. If it's in-combat and eats an action, it's 'active'.



And… lol, I can see why people argue about that feat. So… is there even any agreement regarding whether you have to “take the pain” in order to benefit from the lack of / change in level cap, or do people debate that, too?
Personally, I play it as only going up to +3 and you must pay one way or another. Note that 'quick recovery' is good feat to go with it.

The feat is most useful at level (where L1 vs. L4 matters quite a bit) or for unlocking nondamaging level-capped spells (such as polymorph).

[Gnaeus]

If you put all that together, could you make combat healing viable? “My Cure Light Wounds heals 1d8+100”, or something? (Especially if you used Spell Points, to only spend 1 SP for each time you cast a Cure Light Wounds?)

If you made a cleric//healer, you could at least get imbued healing and augment healing on top of the Healer base spells. So 1d8+7+Cha+5temp hp off a CLW at level 5, or 3d8+11+cha+5 from a cure serious, or 1d4+9+cha+5 from a close wounds as a swift. Thats probably good enough for most tables. Pretty much anything//crusader is also pretty effective at in combat healing.

[pabelfly]

If you put all that together, could you make combat healing viable?

I'd say healing is always viable in the right situation, even without gestalt. A well-timed heal can stop a player falling down below 0 health in combat, or give the frontliner another turn to deal damage and possibly knock an opponent or two out to help turn the tide in combat.